I've said before that I have 2 friends (close circle) who are typical glory hunters. One of them supports only winning teams like Ferarri in the F1. Well they were winning when he started supporting them. He says he supports Man Utd but doesn't watch a single game and knows next to nothing about them. Is this considered 'support'? Another doesn't watch games either but likes to rub my face in the dirt when they beat us. His motto is, "we can lose to anyone as long as we don't lose to Liverpool", and yes, he openly said this. I'm like WTF??? You know what? Even if they are my friends, I'll leave them be because they'll look really stupid amongst a group of real fans.

My take on fans who leave when their teams are down is this; you are abandoning your team. Imagine how the players must feel watching fans leave when they are already feeling bad because they are losing. Why is the Kop so famous? Because they sing even if the team is behind i.e. Istanbul. If the players are losing, the fans can play a part.

Ever heard of marketing?

I've also said before that back in the day I started supporting there was no ASTRO and the only live coverage we got was "Road to Wembley" which basically covered FA Cup games. Teams that featured regularly back then were Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs.

To answer your question, I'd like to think that it requires even more devotion to support a club outside of the 'big four'.

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Added on May 13, 2009, 2:14 pmDon't mean to judge but I wouldn't term those as 'rough' times. Despite these incidents you still won trophies.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 13 2009, 02:14 PM

Hmm not entirely true if you ask me. Some people just don't like to lose an argument and end up arguing for the sake of it.

I'm actually one that disagrees with fans leaving early. I've personally felt the compulsion to turn the TV off especially when the result feels like a forgone conclusion but I simply could not bring myself to do so. I felt guilty because to me, it was like abandoning my team in their time of need. If everyone left when the chips were down, who would be left to sing YNWA to the players as they trudged off the pitch? People leave early for a number of reasons. Some claim they cannot bear to see their beloved team lose whilst others don't want to get caught up in the traffic leaving the stadium. My take is that it's more important for you to be there when the team loses. The players will already be distraught. The sight of fans abandoning them will compound the misery, will it not? Imagine if your loved one was ill in bed, and all you did was leave the room to go home. Would he/she not want you by their side during this time? This is why the argument of leaving because you "care too much" for the team does not hold water to me. If I cared for you that much, I'd be by your side in the most trying of times.

I'm sure you'll try to justify leaving early or turning the TV off, and you are entitled to your opinion. At the same time so am I and mine makes a whole lot of sense to me. I really wanted to leave when we were 3-0 down against AC Milan and I'm glad I didn't. It showed me that no matter what the scoreline is at the time, miracles can happen.

As for booing, it all depends on it's nature I suppose. If you have greedy useless owners who are driving the club in the wrong direction i.e. Mike Ashley, I feel fans have a right to voice their grievences. Booing the team is apt if the team shows no heart or desire over the course of the season. While we cannot expect the team to win every game, they should at least show that they tried. This to me is compulsory. At the same time, it's the responsibility of the fans to help drive them on during games. Premiership games are becoming increasingly quiet with the rise in number of tourists to the stadiums, who don't know the songs or are too shy to sing and shout.

Mmm don't quite understand your question. Care to elaborate?

Intention is one thing, action is quite another. Have you never felt like giving up when faced with a really tough task? I have. There are some people I really feel like killing but I don't actually go to the extent of doing it. Why didn't I stop watching? It's simple really. I looked around me and I saw hundreds of fellow fans who were equally distraught as I am. I saw some in tears. I saw how much the team meant to them and it reminded me just how much it meant to me as well. No man's an island and we do sometimes need the support of others. In 2007, we lost the cup to AC Milan, and were I was at, NO ONE left. We all stayed on to applaud our lads as they went up to claim the runners-up medal, much like our fellow fans in Athens. We stayed on to applaud AC Milan as they went up as well. Did we do this just to prove we're the "better fan"? I for one don't give a rats ass what other people think. I just did what came natural and that to me, was to show solidarity and support. All I know is that whenever I'm down, I'd like someone to help pick me up. I'd like to know that if I were getting beat up, my mates would be there to back me up. It's only my opinion but it matters to me.

I can't help it if some claim this to be an anti-Man Utd thread or whatever, because the examples I gave are fact. I've not made a single reference to any other team because I'm more interested in mine. All I know is when someone claims that all that matters is the silverware in the trophy cabinet, they don't have their priorities right. Are trophies important? Heck yeah but they don't rank no. 1. Someone quite rightly pointed out that if it purely a matter of shiney metal cups, smaller clubs won't have any fans. How long since Newcastle won their last piece of silverware? What matters most to me is loyalty and undying devotion, but that's just me. Perhaps it's the reckoning of a loser but who cares? I don't. I just try to be sincere in my opinions.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 19 2009, 01:10 PM

That's the thing. Who is asking you to justify yourself? I merely stated my opinion. Just because you don't agree with someone's opinion, it doesn't mean you can't accept or respect it. You just said that loyalty cannot be bought but with isn't the whole point of categorising fans who support winning clubs as "Glory Hunters"? They prove that loyalty can indeed be bought.

Once again I don't see why you need to keep justifying yourself. To me, the best judge would be the fan himself. Deep inside, we all know where we stand. We can post here all day long and cite examples of what makes us loyal but I feel that how you carry yourself and how you act matters most.

As for your last sentence, you are right as well. The club means differently to each individual. It's when fair weather fans claim to be know-it-alls, that arguments usually arise because they don't know enough to put forth a solid argument.

You had said that loyalty cannot be bought. I countered by saying that it can, hence the term, "Glory hunter". You can support a winning team just so long as you stay a supporter when the winning stops. If you ONLY support winning teams, you'll be changing teams like you change underwear.

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Added on May 20, 2009, 11:07 amThis is precisely what I said way back. It's like a fear of commitment. Why do people fear it in relationships? It's either they are on the lookout for a better option, or they fear getting hurt. When you do this however you also prevent yourself from experiencing true love. Some may not agree with this analogy but as we commit our emotions to relationships and our clubs, I find it that much more relevant.


This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 20 2009, 11:07 AM

My definition shouldn't matter to you. Like I said, I'm only voicing my opinions on the matter. I can't look into your soul to see how committed you are. Only you know and that should suffice.

You did indeed go through a 4 year run without winning the title but in all honestly, I did you'd agree it wasn't all that tough to stay loyal considering you've won the Premiership 11 times. 4 years without winning it is hardly a disaster. Whether or not some fans would still stay loyal after 10 years or more is debateable. We can all hypothesise but our conclusion would be purely hypothetical. I'm pretty sure there are fans who will stay and those that will leave. Heck, I myself am ashamed to admit I know a Liverpool fan who is now a "proud" Chelsea supporter. The one positive from winning nothing is that you weed out the glory hunters. The thing is you'll never know until the situation presents itself to you. I'm sure many would claim to remain loyal but at the same time, it's almost certain that some will jump ship. How do I know this? Well it's happened before.

You can't at the same time blame some of us for bringing up the issue that we've been true tough times, because it is plain fact. I admit to having doubts over a person's lay to claim until they've actually been through such a predicament. If the circumstances were different and we weren't talking about football clubs, I think you'd agree with me.

Unlike fans, they make a living from playing the game. Take Robbie Fowler as an example. He was no longer wanted by Houllier at the time and moved on to Leeds and Man City thereafter, before moving down a division. He may have left the club but Liverpool was always in his heart. Remember the 4 finger salute and the 5 finger one later on? He was reacting to jibes Man Utd fans were giving him during the Manchester derby. He reacted by indicating that we've won 5 European Cups. Here's an example of someone who is no longer physically with the club, but whose heart never left.
On the flipside you have players that profess their love for their club, only to leave and profess their love for their new
club.

There is a stark contract between the type of players mentioned above. Fernando Torres is still an icon at Atletico Madrid as he is with Liverpool. He had the inscriptions, "You'll Never Walk Alone" inside his captains armband while playing for Atletico. He made the move to Merseyside to fulfill his personal ambitions while promising the Atletico fans that he will one day return to them. Here is another example of a player who switched clubs without pissing any of the fans off.

I feel it can be done albeit in the proper manner.

Well they weren't exactly playing for struggling sides. On the English domestic front I'm reminded of two prime examples. Matt Le Tissier was sublime but chose to spend his whole career with Southampton, rejecting moves to AC Milan and Chelsea. Steve Bull made the England team in 1990 but was surprisingly playing for Wolves in the old 2nd Division at the time. He never moved even after the World Cup, preferring instead to help the club fight for promotion which they never did until he retired. He received offers from Real Madrid, Barcelona, Boca Juniors, Man Utd and Liverpool just to name a few.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 23 2009, 10:33 AM

That's the thing. Some don't bother to make the connection. It doesn't matter that you weren't born there. Most use this is just an excuse. It isn't "just football" to some. Some clubs practice traditions and values that are applicable in daily life. Why do Liverpool players have such a close connection with it's fans? Because Bill Shankly once proclaimed that it was the "people's club". It teaches you to appreciate everyone around you whether it's the toilet cleaner you see at work or your friends. It tells you not to discriminate. It's just one example but it's the reason some do actually find a connection with their club and it becomes personal.

The issue about the Man Utd fans that beat up the Barcelona one has been discussed over on their thread. Do you think these guys did what they did because they felt the Barcelona fan insulted them or their club? I'm betting it's the former because no fan in their right mind would want to tarnish the reputation of their club. They reacted because they loss, not their club. There is a distinct difference here. See how if you value your club enough, it can affect the decisions you make in such situations. Who in their right mind would want to give their own club or it's fans a bad name, especially since they were sober and at a mamak?

True enough which is why I'm not a fan of any particular country. I only watch games involving Liverpool players. I'm not going to go into other clubs but if you look at Liverpool there is a much stronger connection to the Scouse culture than there is to the English one. I mean John Aldridge is Scouse but he's Irish and not English, neither is Jason McAteer.

To be honest, I'm the reverse from what you described. I started watching football because I heard of Liverpool. Curiosity got the better of me and I decided to tune into one of their matches. Slowly but surely, I got into reading football magazines and books and that's how I learned about the other clubs. In some ways I did some research because I wanted to find out more not only about Liverpool but about our rivals as well. "Know thy enemy, know they self" right? In summary my interest in football stemed from my interest in Liverpool. I was never a really good player and thus never really played the game much. So for me it wasn't about watching a team and then finding out more. I was told stories about the club which is why I chose the club, or as the old cliche goes, it chose me.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 31 2009, 11:12 PM

I've not read beyond the first page as I'm waiting to board a flight but I absolutely disagree that we cannot descriminate against glory hunters. To me it speaks volumes of your character. A person that can't take losing gracefully or wants to be spared the emotional pain of watching a losing team will often be a glory hunter. I'll be blatantly honest and state I have absolutely no respect for people of this sort regardless of how many they number.
It disgusts me that people can 'tumpang glamour' when the club they pretend to follow win, and disappear when they lose. If ever I went to war, this would be the last bloke I'd want by my side because I can't trust him to be by my side when I need him.

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Added on August 30, 2010, 3:27 pm

You have failed to note that there are glory hunters who do not even watch games. Not knowing the names of your own players is fine just so long as you don't profess to be a loyal fan who will support your club till the day you die. You can't lay claim to have undying loyalty but not show the club some respect by knowing a little about it's history and practicing some beliefs and traditions that they advocate.

You contradict yourself. You talk about circle of life and then go on to suggest that it involves changing. By definition, once an organism begins it's life cycle, it immediately faces survival needs. In order for it to achieve it's full natural lifespan, the organism must overcome many obstacles. I don't know how you'd interpret this but to me it means you stick by your club through thick and thin!

Wrong. A glory hunter isn't someone that started supporting a club because they won things, it's one who only supports a club that is currenty winning, hence the use of the word "hunter" after "glory"

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 30 2010, 03:34 PM

It doesnt matter why the phrase was coined. If Man Utd have a large base of them its only because they are the most successful English side since the inception of the Premier League but they exist in other clubs. I dont discriminate and i hate any glory hunting Liverpool fan all the same.

Id like to see you try and make me.

Your 'fact' is based on your interpretation of the term, so it isnt therefore an actual fact. It is your opinion, nothing more.

If you think you need to be from there to feel connected to a club, then congratulations to you because you are right by virtue of your belief. It doesnt however apply to everyone

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 30 2010, 07:18 PM

If you dont feel any connection to a foreign side, that's your problem but some of us do. What has LFC given to me? A great man once said, "ask not what your country can do, but what you can do for your country". I dont support the club because they give me handouts. I do so because I feel proud to. I dont expect them to send me thank you letters. I expect them to maintain their values and principles. In return, i pledge to them my loyalty. It is with my loyalty and those of millions of others that they continue to exist and in return, they give me memories that I will cherish and take with me to the grave.

Let me pose you the same question then, what has your club given to you?

Apparently reading is a concept alien to you. Common sense would indicate that humans are capable of empathy, which in layman terms mean you are able to put yourself in the shoes of others. I dont need to have lost someone at Hillsborough to know it will hurt me if I did. I dont need to have been there to want to show respect. I dont need to have met Shankly to understand what kind of man he is, after reading the accounts of so many others. I dont need to be there to understand how difficult it must be for a cab driver to follow the team all over Europe.

Do you even read? You preach about common sense but from your posts, it gives me the impression it isnt that common after all. If you have read a book, did you have to be in it or to understand it?

Wrong use of the word, "ironic".

Ive always advocated that one needs to have an emotional attachment to any side he supports. I wont disagree with your comments on national teams because i feel the same way, but i can bet my bottom dollar on the fact that i know more than a handful of people who have a deeper emotional tie to their clubs than you do to yours.

Lucky them then.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 30 2010, 08:29 PM

This coming from a young punk? If you're a real man you won't be hiding behind a keyboard hurling insults because you need to cover the painful fact that you cant counter arguments.

Yeah and all Pahang want is to put a smile in your face.

You keep repeating this like a retarded parrot without countering any arguments that explain why we can feel a connection with overseas clubs. Please prove me right and continue to do so.

Oh and didnt you get the memo? Some of us are nothing but mere immigrants.

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Added on August 30, 2010, 8:35 pm

This coming from a young punk? If you're a real man you won't be hiding behind a keyboard hurling insults because you need to cover the painful fact that you cant counter arguments.

Yeah and all Pahang want is to put a smile on your face.

You keep repeating this like a retarded parrot without countering any arguments that explain why we can feel a connection with overseas clubs. Please prove me right and continue to do so.

Oh and didnt you get the memo? Some of us are nothing but mere immigrants.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 30 2010, 08:45 PM