You have yet to answer one of my simpler questions. Is a person who has quit smoking, still a smoker?

I tried articulating as clear as I could why I don't support my state side anymore and all you got is that I think the've dropped in standards? Ignored all the other bits I posted on not wanting to support a state team run by opticians whose policies I disagree with? Ignored the fact that I implied that instead of reinvesting into the club, states choose to keep the money for themselves to run their own political agendas? Not read about players not getting paid? Apparently not good enough reasons for you.

One day all teams will be privatized and hopefully all of this will change.

Didn't you get the memo? He's appointed himself as the only model fan.

Still no answer to my "if a smoker stops, is he still a smoker?" questions. Here's how I would answer if I were on the other camp. "have you guys stopped smoking?". Has your team actually stopped winning? This is how debates are meant to be conducted. Instead I'm getting ," dont care, you are a glory hunter", retorts.

Would like to comment on Corez's post. When I was in Manchester for a visit, they were selling City kits at 50% the regular price.

A point to note is that English fans are wary of foreign ones, hence the anti - OOT sentiment. I've noticed from forums however that they are becoming a little more accepting especially if you know your stuff. I met a Red from Norway once called Jan. He spoke to me on a forum and told me he was going to visit KL and asked if I knew a good place to watch the game. I offered to pick him and his mates up from his hotel and I took them out to watch games. We've been corresponding since. He travels to watch the occassional game and was in Istanbul. You'll find that many fans who aren't from England are that serious. What about the Greek contingent that travelled to Anfield for the Hillsborough service.

Would anyone here not want to watch every game live if he could? I think sweeping aside the economic consideration for this is foolish. How many RM 6,000 trips can one make in a year? It is definitey a valid reason not to go but it doesn't mean that one doesn't want to go. Armchair fans are those in the area but choose to watch from home instead.

Anyway when I was at the Albert having a few pints with the locals, they were initially skeptical when I told them I was a fan from Malaysia. After 30 mins of conversation however they found I could hold my own in a conversation with them and warmed to me. If a local can accept me as a fan, who is anyone here to judge?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Feb 1 2011, 06:54 PM

I agree completely it isn't about the money hence my sarcastic implication that the richer fan will always be the "better" fan if it were so. Your mate went on to suggest that by virtue of not buying tickets and going to stadiums, we don't actually "own" the club. I brought up the issue of merchandise and then the goalpost shifted again. Supporting the club by buying merchandise is not the same as buying tickets. Is it about money? Nope. You are right about Liverpool and it's blue collared background. Many were mere dock workers back then. It's why the club has tried it's level best to resist charging exuberant ticket prices.

I think people are coming out with variations to suit their own arguments. If you ask me, the term is pretty straightforward. It is basically a person whose allegiance is solely to perpetual success.

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that any person who supports a foreign club over a local one is a glory hunter. The definition has no relation whatever to the words in the term. How is a person Who supports Norwich or Southampton and glory hunter? What fooking glory have they attained?

If anything should be in question, it's the reason behind why a person supports the club that he or she has chosen. Is it purely superficial or is there a deeper underlying reason? You simply cannot lump the two together.

Giving yourself a pat on the back are you?

When did we claim that we are the only loyal fans again? What does us being fans of predominantly the more globally recognized clubs have to do with other clubs not having fans? Smaller clubs have less global support and your point is what?

Before givin yourself a clap, perhaps you might want first to check if your question is phrased properly.

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Added on February 2, 2011, 5:12 pm@angel of death. Think your question should be directed at me since I don't have the same affinity for local football any anymore. I've voiced my reasons why earlie if you scroll back, twice in fact. Instead of addressing it however, I received feedback like, "you should support your local team regardless". This is a completely invalid response as it avoids addressing the issue. Care to have a crack?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Feb 2 2011, 05:12 PM

I don't think you're getting the gist of the argument

You are absolutely right. My affection for my local side is as you say, not as strong and here's why. I started really young and since then I've realized that a person needs more than just fancy football and trophies from his club to really truly fall in love. Other than the fact I was born in Selangor, I never found that connection back then. As I grew older and was exposed to more information regarding local football, how they are all state run by politicians and in some cases royalty, and I grew less interested. After reading about how these same politicians supported racist policies and so on, I really had nothing to make me want to stay loyal anymore. Now you are right, I didn't have a strong enough cause to make me want to take to the streets and risk getting arrested by the ISA or whoever. I never found that one compelling reason. As I'm older now I have less reason to picket in public or whatever knowing it will make little difference. Also, arressandro mentioned how really hard core fans would protest, quit their jobs or whatever for their clubs. He's right, I'm not as crazy as these fans. I have a job, I have to support myself and my future family, I have people who have invested time and money in me to see me make a future for myself. I have in my mind, bigger and more important obligations. In terms of local footie I focus on the bigger picture, I vote.

Let me ask you this. Do you think the FAM would have seen a need to rebrand local football had fans not stayed away? Would they even entertain the notion of privatizing the league and clubs in the manner Kelantan has? They realize that they need to take drastic steps to win the fans back. When clubs are privatized, the onus to market themselves will now be placed on the individual owners and no longer will there be a need to suck state funds. Individual owners will each run their own clubs the way they see fit. You will also see a huge rise in investment as sponsors of all sorts look to brand teams, dugouts, a-boards, scoreboards, match day programmer and so on. Now what I'm saying now may seem irrelevant or even like nonsense to some, but I don't care. This is what is going to happen in the next few years. I have friends in the MSL, acquantainces in KAFA, friends who are sports promoters and I know a couple of sports journalists. If I'm wrong then so are they. When football should one day be "cleansed" of politicians who stand for things I absolutely am against, local football will slowly begin to look more appealing again.

Needless to say I'm already expecting half-wit responses like, "who cares? You are still a glory hunter!", instead of well thought out replies. Predictable.

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Added on February 3, 2011, 9:14 amI have no issues whatsoever with fans still supporting local sides because they can deal with the issues I've just mentioned, they don't feel it or they don't care. From what I gather however, many do so simply because they were born there. If I were to ask for other compelling reasons eg club values/tradition, will these answeres differ much from those who support overseas clubs?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Feb 3 2011, 09:14 AM

Which is the thing. You can't organize street protests against an oppressive entity and then go out supporting their affiliates. It just means you protest only when it's convenient. In the end, fans staying away from local stadiums has forced the MSL into action. Has Indonesian football changed ?Sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind whatever your motives.

Here's an example. When the Glazers took over Man Utd, fans sold their shares in protest. When G&H screwed Liverpool over, fans boycotted merchandise. These are local fans mind you not foreign ones. Sure creating a ruckass on the streets gets you in the headlines but it results in little unless profits get hit.

If you are completely happy with everything on the other hand, please carry on supporting. I'm not going to criticise anyone for not supporting, or not caring or knowing.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Feb 3 2011, 02:47 PM

Absolutely but you also have to consider my reasons for not feeling an affinity. Perhaps you can tell me what the team represents if not the state government? I think that teams like Terengganu and Kelantan have more identity than any other team in Malaysia. You have your own culture and way of life. I can see why you are passionate about your state and I'll never question your loyalty. I've been to Kelantan many times and seen how fanatical they are about local football. I also know how proud East Coast residents are about their home state. I don't feel the same unfortunately, being in Selangor.

Liverpool fans did stay away from Anfield. In he home win against Bolton, just days before Hodgson resigned, only 35,000 fans showed up but you don't need it to be completely empty to make your point. Just like in Malaysia. Not all fans stay away but a lot have over a number of years now.

You say 10,000 people protesting on the street is more effective? I agree it makes an impact but people forget easily. Remember BERSIH? Local media reported some what? 7,000-10,000 protestors? Al-Jazeera, CNN and BBC reporters that were in the crowd, clocked between 40,000-50,000 protestors. They wanted to reform our electoral process and amongst the demands were:-

1) doing away with postal votes
2) the use of permanent ink to minimize chance of foul play
3) Removal on entries that are not valid eg deceased people
4) equal access for all parties to print media

If you recall the 2008 elections, which conditions were met? None. What happened in the end? The nation voted and the ruling coalition lost it's two thirds majority. It is why I maintain that the latter is most effective.

I believe that Malaysian football is already on the mend but it will take a few more years to win the fans back. You say staying away from stadiums isn't effective and yet we hear radio ads prompting fans to support local football. It has made an impact. Why else would FAM be trying to rebrand the league? Tan Sri Annuar Musa has the right idea and his Kelantan team will pave the way forward.

No harm at all. Some people admit to being one. Not being able to define one accurately however, is a crime because you are wrongly accusing someone.

How convenient. You disappear for a week whilst many questions are posed to you and return to say the same thing. Guess they were too tough eh?

Presumptious. You accusations are weak as your reasoning has no content. It wasn't even your article. It was someone elses. You aren't capable of writing something so well thought out so don't flatter yourself. I give credit to the author, but I disagree simply because I don't share the same affinity to my state for reasons you obviously ignored. You are nothing but a coward. You shy away from facial confrontation and you avoid arguments. Instead you try to mask your lack of intellect with insults. Why do I say you're stupid? Simple. You can't process any information but your own. To you, whatever anyone who doesn't agree with you posts, is just plain text.

Do continue to hide behind your keyboard. It's the only place that gives you strength apparently.

Yes one guy says he watches purely for the quality and all of us are labelled under the same banner. Typical. I suppose you think Houllier's teams play attractive football then.

It isn't that you don't want to answer our 'stupid' question, its that you can't and its been proven over and over. You talk about us being in denial despite being able to put forth substantial arguments, something you can't. You can't even dissect the term, "glory hunter" and your definition strays so far from the meaning of the words put together. Are there glory hunters around? Of course. You however see only in black and white. Anyone who supports another side other than the one mentioned on his birth certificate is a glory hunter. Typical of any close minded person. Everything you don't understand or cannot relate to is blasphemy.

Your right to support only your state of birth isn't what pisses people off, its your inability to put forth a constructive argument. I don't agree with arresandro, just like I disagreed with airmood on numerous occasions in the past but at least they have displayed the ability to think, something that's obviously alien to you.

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Added on February 10, 2011, 7:32 pmYou are right and I've articulated why. The reasons were of course conveniently ignored though I have to give you credit for at least bothering to find out why before making accusations. It isn't because I think other sides are more fanciful as poor deluded Yuki suggests. I don't support any international team because I have no emotional attachment.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Feb 10 2011, 07:32 PM

Once again you've proven your ignorance by not comprehending my reasons why. I honestly thought I was insulting you when I called you a dumbass and stupid earlier but now I realize I'm merely describing you. You've ignored the insight a gave earlier, the very same insight shared by many Malaysians if the elections were anything to go by, something of course you don't understand. Suffer to say, my reasons for feeling unappreciated by my nation are stronger than your blind faith. Prove me rigt again with another weak reply then. If anything the nation is what it is now instead of on par with a much smaller country like Singapore because of blind citizens like you who don't mind being taken advantage of. Happy with being mediocre it seems.

Kids do have a tendency not to read the news and keep up with current events. Questioning my reasons for not being nationalistic whilst not realising how big a problem it actually is. Last National Day, the had to fine businesses for not flying the national flag. Once they wanted to insist that we sung the national anthem before each movie in the cinema. Need I mention the brain drain? What about the fact that in the past 6-8 years, 500,000 Malaysians migrated out of the country. These things transcend football but I would not expect the genius that is Yuki to know all this.

Is this OT? I don't think so as I'm responding to doubts over my lack of interest in local football which is runs by the state which in turn is run by the ruling coalition, by and large.

No one ashamed because you can't even back up your own definition of one.

Yet again you avoid arguments and continue to spout the same rubbish. No one feels "butthurt" by your criticism because it is baseless. What's annoying is dumbasses like you exist in large numbers.

Your state team belongs to you is it? How? Try explaining and prove that you are at least 1 IQ point above a maggot.