the important thing for me is not about the money. its being there as a statement of support..

but of course being there is only one thing that supporters of the club do... but its not the only defining thing...

From what i know, and you probably know better, Liverpool football clubs for instance represent the struggle of Liverpool's middle class society in and industrial city....

so the liverpool-middle-class group, or even the beggars in the street of liverpool, who dont have the money to attend the matches, but have the will to wish the club success because thats that would would the only upbeat or success in their mundane daily lives,... then they are already true supporter to me..

of course fans who can afford it also must contribute financially... as money also important ins this world...

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Added on February 1, 2011, 7:31 pmactually all of his points are actually mine too.. We set a definition and base on said reasons, he find himself falls into it... so he accept and admit it... i also did the same when i find myself in that glory-hunter definition... so i can also admit it...

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Added on February 1, 2011, 7:34 pmok i will take that bait. No.. if he stops smoking he is not a smoker anymore...

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 1 2011, 07:45 PM

well, to be fair,the feeling is mutual as i find your idea of supporting a big English Premier League Club just because they are glamorous or having good players or good juicy history etc a little narrow minded and shallow myself. i am not denying your right to do it. i think its perfectly normal and unstoppable scenario in this globalization age. i just say that this act falls under glory-hunting category...

i don't think narrowing the possibility of clubs you can support means narrowing your thinking. On the contrary, it takes a lot of open thinking to support local football these days and need a lot much more open to fight for it and improve things.. football fans in Malaysia generally has tunneled their views to to support only 4 teams in England all this while... what i would like to do is to suggest them to open their mind more and realize that it does not has to be that way....

the problem here i think is the way you see and position yourself in football spectrum a little bit different than we do. You see football as a commercial product. The way you choose or loyal to any random football club is not different to a consumer choosing and staying loyal to her favorite tomato pasta sauce in the supermarket. You only choose something base on what is most beneficial and useful to you as a user. Which is perfectly normal for a tomato sauce industry as the binding factor between brand-user is the benefits of the product. But not for football clubs because a base of a football club is the relations they have with their base football fans...

For our side, being customers who only stays with the brand because it benefits you is not good enough. A supporter is not a customer who just sticks with the product when its good and leave it when its bad. A supporter's challenge is great especially when your team is at the bottom of 4th division in England or Malaysia and these extreme condition requires special bond. The bond will be much stronger if you have a non-selfish reasons to do it. One of the generally accepted bond is your identity match the identity of the club. And a part of your indentity that usually attached to a football club is your local roots.

this is an excerpt of of challenges faces by Ultras Malaya in sticking up to Malaysian football..

"Some of us have lost their job, had to extend their studies, sneak out from the office, received a warning letter, failed an exam, got fired and there’s even a lad who got divorced just because he is an ultra."-Freddie-

You dont do that when sticking up to your favorite local product at the supermarket or your favorite local movie at the cinema do you... the passion is different and i dont see how you can see it as the same.

if you want to use an analogy you must compare orange with oranges. Football supporting is a movement. Not a product.

One of the famous international movement that's happening right now is the Egyptians people move to overthrow the government. Now as a Malaysian, you can be interested with this juicy historical stuff and can investigate all the chronologies and information from the internet. You probably know and memories more about the facts than the Egyptians do. But its not made the fight yours. In the event the revolt do succeed, of course as a fan of the revolt you will be happy and wave the Egyptian flags around.. but it will never substitute what an Egyptian truly felt about the victory.. because that is their local fight.. not yours...


i never stop anybody from watching, learning and admiring good quality foreign football. What i want is do not take the easy way shortcut by just simply adopting their successes as yours. Instead, take what your learn from outside and implement what you can back home where you belong.

Thats what the Egyptian did. Them Egyptians dont just be happy with Tunisian people's success to get rid of the ruling family, they make it a reason and inspiration to start their own revolt for their own country. Lets us all wish them well and this revolution ends swiftly with a people's victory.

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Added on February 2, 2011, 1:58 pmAnd these blue collared people of Liverpool, why they need to support the club so much? What it is about their football club that makes it a so great and looking forward to each weekends?

Why cant they just support Manchester United or AC Milan?

Can they reach the same effect if they support Liverpool made tomato sauce or support Liverpool made movie in the cinemas?

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 2 2011, 02:00 PM

finally .. someone from the other side who understand what i talking about... at least seem to be.... if you cannot avoid beeing a glory-hunter because it suits your live style better ... and sacrificing youself for your people is too much of a hassle... then do accept it and move on....

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Added on February 3, 2011, 8:58 pm

i dont have to asnwer this arguement because i constantly and repetetively say that i have no problem with people 'using' foreign football like i use international product. i also 'use' foreign football by watching them play and learning from them. But it doesnt mean i give my allegiance or supporting them.

all of my arguements are about supporting as in giving your loyalty and allegiance. not using. if you want to make the arguement otherwise, or if you have trouble differenting those 2, dont attribute me to it as it is out of context from my arguement.

IF it is about 'using' i use all foreign football, local football, local product and foreign product. There is nothing to compare between them.

and for the record, if i watch international movie, it does not take it away from local movies because i also watch local movies as well...



My guess it is because of the feeling of superiority because the team you support are glamour and favourite to win most fooball matches week in week out and gurantee of good quality football.



not because united are glamour and favourite to win most fooball matches week in week out and gurantee of good quality football ? lets say Cantona stayed at Leeds and they sucks and get relegated... would you support Leeds?



i never say glory-hunters are not passionate and loyal to their adopted club. On the contarary, some of the things you guys do are pretty good. We need a lot of that in our side too. I describe the sacrifices of ultras not to compare with you. it was meant to compare passion of football supporting to product users and movie goers which you use as an analogy which is out of context.



good stuff. i can only wish football fans in Malaysia will have the same passion for the teams that represents them.

Again. My arguement is not about passion.

for the record, i dont think one is a glory-hunter if he support ANY CLUB, local or foreign, if he does it due to any non-footballing attachment.

any kind of these stuff that you might want to share from your experience?

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 3 2011, 10:56 PM

what i can say is 10,000 organized self-initiated pressure group is much better to force change than 10,000 empty seats.

all of recent vibe of imprrovement that we see is all self initated.

our stadium has been empty for years now and i dont see any good can be brought from that. Man U and Liverpool fans never leave the stadium now do they...

you have a lot of media connections... surely there are creative things you can do that necessasirly jeorpadize your job... hendak seribu daya orang kata... yang penting never give up on our team...

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 3 2011, 11:54 PM

personal attack and totally uncalled for.... i was afraid it would come down to this...

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Added on February 10, 2011, 6:46 pmthank you sir... there are no more we can ask from you...

glory-hunting is the same process that people do when they are finding a club to support and or to change to a better club... its just a repetition of the same thing....

which is nothing wrong by itself. no one can deny you your right to the best quality base on what your requirement is...

to not be a glory-hunter, you must be immune to need of quality to influence loyalty and find the strength to support the club due to non-footballing reason...

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 10 2011, 07:17 PM

i dont think that is glory-hunting as Kelantan is relatively poor in term of glory compare to English Primier League Clubs that he might have the option to support....

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Added on February 11, 2011, 5:48 pmyour are entitled to support any team that represents where you are born... so no.. you are not a glory hunter if you upports them if they are the Champions of Asia... though it would draw the ire of the old skool fans who sticks to supports them since they played in the FAM League..

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 11 2011, 05:49 PM

the key word here is "glory"......

when you don't have the guts to support you identity-root team but you choose to support a "glorious" other team, foreign or local, instead, then you are a glory-hunter.

its hard to call you a "glory" hunter if you want to support a team less glorious than you real home team is it....

the definition never change... just that there are generalization that i think everyone agrees that foreign teams supported by us are several leagues more glorious than our state teams... hence the generalization that "anyone who support foreign teams are glory-hunters"....

i would never call anyone who support Sunday Leagues teams in England as glory-hunters.... we just never got to this part of the discussion..

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 11 2011, 06:15 PM

i dont agree in this case hunter indicates continuity. Everyone who hunts is a hunter. To stop hunting you must drop everything to do with your hunting past ...especially the prey...




yeah i read your point of view and although i dont agree with it, i understands it. I felt the urge to reply my POV about it but never find the correct window of time to do so.



its not about what is fine or not. its about what is glory-hunting or not. Norwich probably have less trophy than Selangor... but in term of glory, from our inferiority complex tinted view of ours, they are definatelty more glorious than Selangor... they have more quality than us....




"glory" is not just about success. how do you compare the "glory" of 2 clubs who never won a trophy then.. "glory" in glory-hunting is about overall quality of the club that attracts people to supports them other then natural causes... "hunter" is an identity. if you hunts. than you are a hunter.... and my definition has always been the same as Yuki's.. i agree with him word for word... he understands what i am saying... i dont want to dwells to much about Hills-borough as it is kinda sensitive... my hearts goes to all tragedies the world over..i dont know his story.... but the way he absorbs and shift his identity from an indonesian to a Liverpudlian is not right to me somehow... .. i know already you dont agree and understands this... but that is my point of view about it...

to answer you question... the indonesian reds is a gloryhunter when he supports Liverpool...the mournings, the gatherings and other activity that he did are all part of that...


i am not saying its better. i am saying he is not a glory-hunter. i cannot answer where is the attachment is on his behalf as i am not doing it. Its up to him to decide his level of support. Where the attachment came from can be varied from some non-footballing reasons. As simple as having a good time with his cousin at the Sunday League games can bring attachment to the club... he does not necessarily have to watch or read about it...

on my behalf, he is not a glory-hunter..

This post has been edited by aressandro10: Feb 11 2011, 07:05 PM