Ignoring means not posting dumbass.

I like debates/discussions because there is an exchange of opinions and at some point you come to a stalemate, because everyone sees things differently. There is no right and wrong. In the end, we have to respect the fact that we won't always see eye to eye. What pisses me off is someone who criticises your opinion without offering one. I remember some of his posts in the Liverpool thread (actually had to google them again), and its the same each time.

You choose to comment only on posts supporting your weak argument backed by nothing but your own shallow opinion, whilst at the dame time, ignoring numerous other points brought up by posters. If you want to support your local team because of their rich history and culture, that's your prerogative but don't knock something you obviously can't comprehend. Something millions of football fans around the world can.

You keep harping about how everyone is obligated to only supporting his hometown whilst ignoring posts pointing to the fact that the world is shrinking by virtue of technological advancements. You point out that there is no way any fan from abroad can feel and affinity to a team hundreds of miles away whilst ignoring my post on what Indonesian Reds do during Hillsborough.

Your definition of glory hunter isn't someone who doesn't know about the club, switches clubs regularly and has no affinity to it. Your definition is limited to the narrow scope of geography. So Korean BBoy groups don't understand hip-hop although they are amongst the best in the world. We know nothing about the American fast food culture. John Wayne Parr knows nothing about Muay Thai etc. if you refuse to embrace change but don't put down others for doing so.

You're becoming desperate and thus have started to form new terms with your own definitions. Tell you what. You go on creating new terms if you want. Fact of the matter is that your views are narrow. How so? Simple. Instead on discounting arguments posed to you backed by references or not, you continue to try to drive your point through.

There isn't a point in telling you how any of us started supporting foreign teams because A) there is already a thread on it, and B) you've already decided not to listen.

You've missed a lot. The latest argument put forth is that you must support your local team ie Selangor, KL etc and if you support a foreign team you are a glory hunter. It's because you can't build and affinity with a team hundreds if miles away hence my argument on globalization and examples of how we have already adopted foreign cultures. That about summarizes it I think.

The term, "glory hunter" is a term a lot take offence to. Some are, others aren't. "Talking out of your arse" isn't foul language incidentally. Foul language would have been censored. If you mean abusive language then do also take into consideration that one or two on your camp have also done the same.



Don't give yourself so much credit. It isn't hurtful that you are calling anyone who supports a foreign club "glory hunter" because you clearly have your own definition of the term. Your inability to counter arguments posed against you comprimises your credibility. Posters like me are not hurt by your labels as much as we are frustrated at your inability or reluctance to comprehend arguments which I imagine is why you don't counter them, with anything other than a "I don't buy it because that's the way I am" approach.



Hah! Finally you have a point here. I'm against someone who says that if you support a foreign team, you are a glory hunter. Do not however confuse the "real fan" and "glory hunter" arguments. The "glory hunter" argument is posed against fans who jump clubs depending on who is winning. The "real fan" argument is against fans who don't know about their club and who don't think history is important. Saying you are a genuine fan just because you support one club isn't credence enough, you are right here. Everyone claims to be a hardcore fan these days.



This is where your reluctance to accept that there are people who support one club and who have been supporting it for up to 30 years or so, is a glory hunter regardless of why they have remained fans. So if you supported a top club then, and they are shit now, you are not a glory hunter. If they are still a big side now, you are?



No arguments form anyone I believe.



Did you even bother to read all the reasons stated? A lot of people follow other teams. In the past I used to follow Newcastle, Man Utd, Arsenal and West Ham games but there is only one team in my heart. Just because I am a Liverpool fan however doesn't mean I don't like watching the way Arsenal play. You can't however profess your love for two clubs. Do you think it's right to profess your love to two women? No, you pick one, marry her and you work on making your decision right. Please READ and more importantly, UNDERSTAND.

Again, you choose not to understand why so many stay away. How many Chinese do you see go? So all Chinese are unloyal cunts despite our forefathers dying fighting against the communist to protect our shores then? Geeze, the problem is bigger than you make it and just willing for it to go away, isn't going to address the issue.




So you're saying that they same guys aren't sad a tragedy hit their shores? Are you even certain they didn't do something similar just because I didn't bother to google it?

Even if you are right, it is testament to what I've been talking about. That someone can feel a deeper sense of connection to something miles away. You may not comprehend or understand it but it doesn't make it untrue. What I've been trying to do all this while is to make your camp realise and perhaps even be open to the possibility that we may have a point.



Again you fail to understand. I'm not calling someone who supports his local side "katak di bawah tempurung". I'm using that term to describe someone who isn't willing to accept that just because he doesn't know something, doesn't mean it isn't true. I'm using it to describe someone with narrow viewpoints and instead of trying to accept new information, is adverse to it. I'm using it to describe someone who doesn't want to admit that the world is changing amidst globalisation. I've already posted so many examples of how we have already been influenced. I'm NOT using it so describe someone who supports his local team. If you are adamant that I did, please cut and paste my statement and I'll gladly apologise for it.



What I'm saying is that some of us have found that reason. If you haven't fairplay. I have a friend who got me starting to support Liverpool but he doesn't follow the team any longer. If you've lost or never found that reason, then by all means move on. Do not however assume that just because you didn't, everyone else can't.



Which is why fans join fan clubs or even start their own. To be with their like-minded peers. MyRAWK for example started when a group of us met on RAWK (LFCs alternative forum - a UK based one). We gathered for a game and grew it from there.

Yes, there are fans who buy jerseys because they want to be associated to anything cool, even if they don't watch the team play but you cannot lump everyone into one category.



Why do you question those who claim the former?

Yes, and Terengganu lets you watch games for free. Kelantan doesn't sell merchandise.

Your point that we are being suckered by clubs is moot. Why? Do we question the motives of clubs before deciding if we should support them? Should I ask what a beggar is going to do with his money before giving him some? I do so because I want to, because I believe in what I see they stand for. If someone wants to take advantage of that, how does it make me a glory hunter? Don't kid yourself into thinking that no one is in it for the money. You don't local clubs want you in their stadiums simply because they want to see your smiling face? If it were so, your tickets would be free. The MSL can be watched on ASTRO. If they didn't want to make money, why not just leave it on free tv? The EPL has evolved into a major marketing machine. Mark my words when I say our local league is heading in the same direction. Clubs will be privatised, and commercial directors will be brought in. It is already in the motions.

So it's ok for someone who doesn't understand why people support foreign teams to lable them "glory hunters" then? Claiming to know it all when not knowing at all is ok then?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 28 2011, 05:09 PM

No time and yet you find it in you to come back. Tell you what. Take all the time you want to respond. It's the weekend. No one is asking you to defend your viewpoint. I'm asking you to disprove mine. Don't use the lack of time to compensate for your inability to do so. Long winded? It happens when all you see are texts you can't make sense of.

If your definition of glory hunter is anything to go by, heck yeah! I'm one. Oh new term now. "Glory hunter stage 2".

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Added on January 28, 2011, 7:29 pmYup you're a stand up fan for being able to walk into a stadium week in and out. Pity some of us will never have that chance. Wanting to go but not being able to makes us glory hunters, your definition of one anyway so that's cool. Much easier supporting a club you seldom get to see play than one you do week in and out of course.

Ah moving the goalpost I see. First we're sad bunch because we have no one to watch games with and we do so at home alone, miserable and all. Yes, surely that makes us lousy fans. I mean it's much easier to gather the strength to watch a game alone that it is jumping up and down with the rest of our mates. Oh but then you find out that some of us do gather and now you say it isn't the same and we have no soul. Yup, it's much easier to find mates online, look for sponsors so we have stuff to give away during viewings, source locations to negotiate food and drink packages than it is to buy a ticket. We don't pay a dime? You pay for your ticket so the club belongs to you? Gee didn't know you received dividens. How many fans fit in your stadium? So the population of Terengganu aren't really fans for not buying tickets, preferring instead to watch the game on telly?

Save your pity mate. What's pitiful is that you look through a very narrow straw and you don't even realise it.

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Added on January 28, 2011, 7:38 pmLol now there is no arguing with such powerful logic is there?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 28 2011, 07:40 PM

I have been to Anfield ignoramus. Another unfounded assumption you've just made.

Yes I do know clubs need fans to make money. Thought I made that pretty clear in my reply to arresandro. I really don't see how I can make it much simpler for you.

"Club belongs to fan" means to me that the fans have a voice, preferably on the board for better or for worse. It means to me that the club also acknowledges it's fans when they make their opinions known e.g the groundshare with Everton and the appointment of Dalglish. Did the fans do it on their own? Of course not but they dis influence it. To you it means spending on the club. If it were that alone, the richer you are, the more the club belongs to you? I see. Well I'm not that rich. I buy what jerseys and merchandise I can. I suppose you want to compare receipts now to see who has more ownership over his club.

You seem to think it's a competition of sorts. Yes I obviously know much less about how a club is run than you. Your insightful posts justify that claim.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 28 2011, 10:58 PM

@minority, good post.

I don't however think that any fan wants to call another a glory hunter just to exert seniority. Monster is an example of a fan whose posts show maturiy beyond his tender age of 22. He hasn't been a fan as long as some but took it upon himself to catch up on terms of knowledge. All anyone can expect is for any new fan to want to do the same and not claim that history isn't as important as watching games. I've not come across a single poster on any UK forum telling the locals that history is irrelevant. I personally visit RAWK to read and learn more than I do to post.

I do take offense however to fans who know nuts and make accusations that we live in the past because the past is unimportant. With information so freely available these days, there is really no excuse for not knowing about landmark moments in your clubs history unless you don't know how to use google. If you don't want to read up, FairPlay but never discount it's importance. I have friends who don't watch games let alone are able to name 5 players in the starting eleven, who support rival teams and gloat when they beat us. I have no guilt labeling them "glory hunters".

On watching local sides, I do agree that standards have somewhat improved again. With the MSL looking now at commercial angles it's only a matter of time before sponsors come in bringing a much needed injection of cash. We are hopefully looking at privatization of local football clubs in the next decade removing them from the jurisdiction of the state FAs but it will take time. Look at the ABL who now have privatized teams. Each team is now responsible to market themselves and look for sponsors. There may be only 6 teams now but there have been interest from teams in Australia and Indonesia to participate next season.

Watching your local side play and feeling a connection however don't often come hand in hand, which is why I do not agree that feeling a connection with a foreign side over your local one means you are a glory hunter. Forcing a connection is short sighted and temporary, all push strategies often are.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 29 2011, 12:12 PM

I'm off the opinion that if you support a team, you support what it represents. I believe that most start out supporting their local team by default, since they can identify with their respective home towns. I myself used to follow Selangor religiously before the league turned pro. It was a combination of two factors, perceived or not that I stopped following local football. First, I discovered Liverpool and over years, I grew more and more in what the club stood for, something I won't elaborate on. Sure they welcome fans because they need our cash injection and they capitalise whenever they can but so does any other club or stadium tickets would be given out for free. As my interest for Liverpool grew, my interest for Selangor declined. This brings me to my second point. I no longer liked what Malaysian football as a whole stood for. Greedy politicians looking to fill their coffers, taking for granted that fans would always flock to stadiums despite a failure to inject cash back into the game for developments sake, preferring instead to use clubs as a channel of revenue for the state and themselves. This coupled by the fact that these very same politicians represent a party whose policies I do not agree with made me give up on local football. You can say that I should support my local side regardless, but I find it hard to force myself to support something I don't believe in. Am I wrong? I'll let you be the judge. All I ask is that people try to understand before being so judgemental.

This doesn't however affect how I feel about our badminton team. I was at Stadium Negara when we last won the Thomas Cup back in 1992. The team back then represented a united Malaysia. I still have in my mind vivid scenes of Siti Hasmah standing on her feet next to Roland Choi. She never took a break, she was and still is badminton's no.1 fan. As Punch Gunalan led the squad out, a chorus of "Inilah barisan kita" broke out and we drowned out the hundreds of Indonesia fans. The team comprised of Rashid Sidek, Foo Kok Keong, Pang Chen, Razif & Jailani Sidek, Soo Beng Kiang & Cheah Soon Kit. Soo Beng Kiang's winning smash brought a nation of different races together as Malaysians who were strangers hugged on another. Some claim that the Chinese abandoned football because there isn't enough money involved. Well, how much does a badminton player earn? Insiders tell me that a top player like Lee Chong Wei earns a meager allowance of RM 2,000 - RM 3,000 from BAM. His cash winnings are also split with the BAM so one can imagine how little backup shuttlers like Darren Liew earn. So now, is it really about the money or something else? Maybe there are people out there who feel the same way I do.

I like the Malaysia I see in badminton more than the Malaysia I see in football. I don't ask for anyone to agree with my point of view, I merely ask that you respect it because of the reasons I gave. I cannot support obvious bias. I cannot support racist policies i.e. the NEP. Does this make me a bad Malaysian? To want that all Malaysian be treated as Malaysians, or does it make me a better Malaysian if I just suck it all up and support it despite the injustice I see?

Moving forward, I mentioned before that privatisation of the league will be underway. Kelantan have just signed a sponsorship deal with Happy, a product from DiGi Telecommunications. As the back of their kits, you'll notice two more sponsors, both companies belonging to Tan Sri Annuar Musa. No more blanket sponsors although Maxis have bought their way into sponsoring the MSL. When more and more teams become privately owned, you'll see more and more sponsors come in especially since the MSL has signed a deal with ASTRO no doubt part of their rebranding exercise. If you look at the MSL committee, it comprises of young individuals with a vision, led by Tan Sri Annuar Musa (http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2010/8/24/sports/6906345&sec=sports) What you won't see on the list of committee members there is that the CEO is a friend of mine and he's only in his early 30's. This is positive as Tan Sri has already begun to realise his vision through Kelantan, being the Chairman of KAFA. If they had a commercial team, they would have assigned sponsorship values to everything in the manner more developed footballing nations have. You'd have to pay to have your name on the dugout, the scoreboard, a-boards, etc. When this happens, football teams will be removed from the jurisdictions of the states. I'm not saying this will make it any less political because only the rich can afford teams and many politicians are rich. You'd also likely see your AKs and TFs of Malaysia come into the picture. KJ already did with MyTeam. When the rebranding is complete, and funds are made available to improve individual teams, the standard of football will go up against and just maybe, clubs will have their own identities and not be a reflection of our politics. Now I may not know a lot of about local football, but I am definitely not completely ignorant as was suggested earlier.

This is a summary of how I feel about supporting my local side once again. If you cannot identify with anything I've said, fairplay. The point I wanted to make is that I simply cannot put this all aside and support my local side blindly anymore. Some can, well I can't. I don't ask for your consent. I ask for you understanding.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 30 2011, 10:43 AM

Seriously I could give a rats ass what you want to brand me because your utter disregard for comprehending posts makes you as brilliant as a door knob. If you want to label yourself as a glory hunter or imbecile that's your choice. It's just annoying that people throw loose terms around without knowing what they mean.

The questions you've posed have already been answered, you're just too stupid to notice, hence why you see 5 pages of nonesense.

If you want to keep behaving like a petulant child, go ahead. If you feel you can hold your own in a discussion, do it face to face.

Speechless? Hardly. I've just realized that there isn't much point in presenting arguments anymore because you choose to ignore then and instead continue to hurl childish insults. Put together a well constructed counter argument to any point I've raised and prove me wrong. If you want to keep throwing insults let's not do it on the net. I'll let you so it to my face

I like debates. Responding with insults isn't debating.

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Added on January 31, 2011, 7:42 pmI like debates. Responding with insults isn't debating.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 31 2011, 07:42 PM

Thanks for the insight again. You are right, that is YOUR view. Glad to see so very few share it.

Once again, stop hiding behind the keyboard if you want to persist with name calling.

Different. Players change clubs. They don't always play for clubs they support. Its a career so it's natural to move for more money. All you can ask is that they be upfront and honest.

Did you or did you not say earlier that the club belongs to you because you spend money on tickets? So which is it now?

And you're still a name calling cowardly incoherent keyboard warrior who is too chicken shit to call me names to my face. Prove me wrong.

He means that you contribute to the club's coffers and they then reinvest this money, hence you actually "fund" transfers etc in some way. Hard to make sense of his incoherent arguments but this is what I understood.

Suddenly however it is different if you contribute via tickets or merchandise. Not surprising since he likes to change his arguments to support his last cause. Let's see. Some have saved to go watch one game in England. Total cost of the trip would be say RM 6,000? How many local tickets does that buy you? So one trip overseas means a local fan would have to go to the stadium 200-300 times to be the equivalent? Once again his point is moot but I'm sure he'll skirt the issue and focus again on bring childish and hurling insults over and over. Seems he's found out how to use the "copy & paste" function.

Thanks for reaffirming what I think of you.

All the caps and the exclamation marks are deceptive I see.

Nope it's because your spineless and only talk tough because you know you're sitting behind a keyboard.

You are incredibly thick aren't you? You're a child because you'ven proven yourself incapable of disecting and answering questions posed to you, preferring instead to continue with the name calling. Ask anyone if that is a trait of a child. Sometimes and just sometimes when 9 out of 10 people call you an idiot, it may be true.

As for being a true Malaysian, yes, wanting to better the country is so unpatriotic of me. Instead being ok with mediocrity is. I wonder who the patriot is. It's because of people like you that we haven't yet reached our potential. Your unwillingness to see things in a different light and inability to counter arguments is unfortunately, too commonplace. I'd elaborate if I thought you'd understand but you seem incapable of adult discussions, probably why you ignored my invitation to post your thoughts of posters being un-Malaysian on the Real World Issues forum.

Go on. Post another macho sounding reply to compensate for being a spineless squid.

I've just explained why I think you're behaving like a kid and you still don't get it. You still think it's merely because you're calling me a glory hunter.

Ok so posters like you who support your local teams are the only true fans and the rest of us are glory hunters whether or not we've stuck with one team or have switched teams along the way.

The pitiful thing is you think you've actually debated the issue although you've skirted so many points that were raised, preferring instead to adopt a "I'm right because I said I'm right" approach. Statements like " you can't relate to those clubs because you aren't born there", backed by no substance make you feel like you've put up a decent argument?

So the conclusion is that only you and arressandro are true fans here because you said so.