And your solution to that is to whine and b**** like a little kid whose parents wont get him the toy he wants? Yeah I'm clearly the one that needs growing up. Have you even tried to understand why without blindly criticising? You post, but do you even read and understand the replies? Do you read the news and keep up with current events? You can learn a lot from reading. You should try it one day before dishing out so called 'facts'.

I've met a number of morons in my life but I must say not many that are in your league.

You behave like a petulant little child that doesn't get his way. You are either really ignorant or have the comprehension of a slug because you haven't answered any of the questions posed to you. Instead, you deflect them by calling others names. The worse thing is I don't think you realize how juvenile you sound.

Am I going too fast for you? Try to answer some of the questions. You're likely to hear a buzzer go followed by someone going, "you are not smarter than a 5th grader".

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 30 2010, 11:48 PM

The fact that there is still a noticeable difference in social class amongst the various races is evidence on this isn't it?

If I were to take religion (which is what a smaller group of fans take football to be), then we'd all have to live in it's place of origin for a prolonged period of time to understand it before practicing it?

As foreign fans do we feel exactly the same way the locals do about their team? Maybe not as much but the fact that some made the choice to find out as much as they can and want to be a part of the club, regardless of what happens on the pitch is indicative that they are not in it for the glory. I don't see how this can be made any clearer. If there are those who choose to believe it's impossible, then so be it. We aren't here to convince you that it's possible, we are here to convince ourselves and just like religion, I don't see the need to impose my belief upon others.

In life I've learnt never to limit my beliefs because it limits your achievements. If you think that something is impossible then it's true but only to you.

Just to add credibility to the argument, Monstar lives in the UK now and I'd value his judgement over someone who doesn't and hasn't any first hand experience in seeing the contrast. I'm not saying all Malaysian fans are the equivalent but some truly are.

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Added on August 31, 2010, 9:29 amI've said it before and I'll say it again, I personally think that it doesn't matter why you started supporting a team, just so long as you continue to support the team. This is phase one. The next phase will be to find out more about the team because otherwise, you'll just be supporting them because of the nice football they play, and the trophies they continue to win. In the context of relationships, this equates to you being superficial and only admiring her physically without bothering to find out more about her. Yea you get posters saying that her past doesn't matter but I bet they have asked about the pasts of all their girlfriends or wives.

Why is it important? Think about it, if you don't find out more, what is there to like if not the quality of football you see on the pitch, or the players you see running around, or the trophies in the cabinet. What am I missing?

I think some people have been missing the point. Sure a lot of us started supporting our respective sides because they won something or were at least competing for trophies but how does the term "glory hunter" still apply when we continue to support the same side through trying times? I fail to see the logic behind such an accusation. A glory hunter seeks success and fame regardless of which team achieves it. Isn't this so?

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Added on August 31, 2010, 9:45 amI'll go out on a limb and make an assumption. This is in direct reference to Akace. You say you've lived in Liverpool for 6 months. This would normally indicate that a person would have a deeper understanding of local traditions, mindset and culture. However knowing the typical Malaysian like I do, especially if you are guilty of suffering from the 'kampung' mentality, you tend to hang out with fellow Malaysians and keep to yourselves. In fact, Asians in general are guilty of this. It certainly was the case when I lived in Australia. In Liverpool, I reckon trips to the boozers, chatting with locals will prove to be extremely fruitful. After all, it could be said that we were born in the Sandon eh? I assume that unless you consume alcohol, you'd have missed out on this? During my short time there I chatted with a can driver, a dock worker, a barkeeper and an elderly patron named George instead of hanging out with my fellow Malaysians to get an deeper understanding of their daily lives. Can't say I completely understood everything that was said but if there was one thing in common it's that they take so much pride in the club that they won't talk to you about football unless you can prove that you have a deep appreciation for the culture and history. Why do you think I keep stressing on it all the time? I for one would like to earn that respect but to each his own.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 31 2010, 09:46 AM

There isn't a right or wrong as far as I'm concerned. I disagree that we absolutely have to embrace everything about the place we were born in our entire lives. When you're older and wiser, you make your own choices. To understand where I'm coming from with regards to where I was born and why I don't support Selangor as I once did anymore, you'll have to visit the other thread on Malaysian football. You can't force loyalty upon a person. It's why the say that there is nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer. You can't force someone to be patriotic. You can't force someone to accept your opinion. Instead, you need to create reasons for them to want to be patriotic or to accept your opinion. It's the classic "push" vs. "pull" strategy. I just think that people should focus more on creating a pull.

Far as I'm concerned, I don't see myself as being as 'good' a fan as those that frequent Anfield each week. I've always maintained that as much as I am a fan of Liverpool, I am a fan of Liverpool fans and I aspire to be as close to one as possible. As arresandro said earlier, it is manufactured but then again, so are a lot of things we pick up. We may never truly understand what it's like to be a Liverpool fan unless we live there but if you ask me, the want and desire to be closer to the club is sufficient.

I agree with your use of the word, "passion" which is why it pains me to note that a section of fans think it's unimportant to want to know more about the club they support.

This is where we disagree to a certain extent though. My definition of a glory hunter is not one who started supporting a team because they were winning things and thus, in the lime light. It is one who continues to associate himself to success, and thus has a high tendency to switch allegiances. There are Liverpool supporters who came on-board for various reasons in the 90's when we weren't winning things, when it was easy to succumb to the temptation of supporting Man Utd as they were winning everything in sight.

I do agree that compared to fans of Spurs, Newcastle and Everton, Liverpool have not waited an eternity to win things but you also have to consider that we did and still do get a fair share of flak from mancs. How many people do you know give fans of Spurs stick? 20 years may not be a long time in the grand scheme of things but some have been fans for less time than that. 20 years is also basically 25% of your life. It's true non of us have tasted relegation and until that happens, it's all hypothetical. I hope never to have to go through that test.

It's English 101 for me. If a person has only smoked 1 cigarette in his life, could he be considered a smoker. Not to me. Calling someone a smoker suggests to me that he does it repetitively. It has to be a serial occurrence. If a fan goes from winning club to winning club consistently, this suggests to me that he is a glory hunter. Now the question the becomes what your definition of "consistently" is. Every year? Every couple of years?

True but the term glory hunter to me suggests repetition. If you've killed someone, that's a fact that will forever remain true regardless of time. You may support a team because the were winning but it doesn't mean you will always be supporting a winning team. Glory to me suggest winning titles and if you are a hunter, you will always be looking to get behind a club winning titles, even if it isnt the same one. I know one such example. Started off as a Liverpool, switched to Man Utd and now he supports Chelsea.

Regardless we've had this debat before and it's clear we agree to disagree so I'll leave it there.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 24 2010, 05:00 PM

You are right. Relegation will cleanse the club of bandwagon jumpers but as disgusting as it sounds, bandwagon jumpers do spend a fair bit on merchandise. My insights tell me this because they have an inherent need to associate themselves to success. If they are sports fans, you'll likely see them in a Ferrari outfit during the F1, or a Laker jersey during an NBA game. They do however contribute to the clubs/teams coffers.

Let's face facts for a bit. Unless you were born or you've studied in a specific locale, you will likely grow to support a team you've watched often on TV. If like me, you grew up in the 80's or early 90's, your options were pretty limited. The only live programme back then was "Road to Wembley" and they most regularly featured teams like Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, Leeds and Everton. Occasionally, you got to see teams like QPR, Notts County, Nottingham Forrest, Norwich, Coventry, Man City and Derby play. Basically, the further you got in the FA Cup, the more you were featured here. When I first started watching, there were no live 1st Division games and without the internet, I had to rely on watching dated highlight programmes. I could only support teams I've watched or heard off and thankfully, I had a friend who supported Liverpool before me. So then, how could one be expected to support say, Ipswich Town if one never got to see them play? You didn't have much choice back then. By the time we got live coverage of league games, I was already a fan of Liverpool despite having a liking for players like Neville Southall, Lee Chapman, Ian Wright, Matt Le Tissier, Gavin Peacock and Chris Waddle.

I therefore urge whoever wants to generalise and criticise all foreign fans to at least understand that exposure back in the day was pretty limited.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 25 2010, 11:30 AM

To be honest I had also thought of the murderer example but hoped to slip it by you. To obvious for someone as wily as you it seems

I think that we've exhausted every possible definition by now. About supporting two clubs, we'll I admit to having soft spot for certain clubs I like to watch but it ends there. In the end, I'm of the opinion there can be only one. If your heart is torn between two loves, it just means that neither has appealed to you and the attraction isn't strong enough.

Old topics get revived but mostly because there are new users who stumble upon them.

As strong as your words are, keep in mind that it is but merely your opinion and everyone has given theirs. I'm sure he appreciates your support but do realise that sometimes, and just sometimes, when the world conspires against you, that you can be wrong. In any case, it's your opinion and I'm sure everyone acknowledges it, even if we don't agree.

Don't be daft. Being loyal to one team doesn't mean you can't watch other teams play. It doesn't mean that you cannot appreciate good football. We don't see the world in black and white like less evolved species do, so just because someone loves on club, it doesn't also mean he only watches one club, or owns one jersey. The argument is against fans to support more than one club even if they are rivals. e.g how can one support Man Utd and Liverpool at the same time?

I'm not sure I understand you but are you saying that a person who supports one team abroad is the same as someone supporting a number of top team abroad?

If your definition of a fan is limited to a geographical description, I'm afraid that you are looking through a straw. Not everyone is born into something. With information so freely available these days, it isn't suprising that someone from the other end of the world can know more about say Kuala Lumpur than you do.

Do you know of any car enthusiasts? Well I do, and I know how passionate they can be. The Alfa is known to be troublesome but enthusiasts claim that the driving experience is orgasmic. Were they born in Italy? So it means they are what? Not actual fans of the car but 'glory hunters', even if they know more about the car makers history and each model, more so than Italians themselves? So only Proton fans are genuine?

I can only imagine that you don't know what it feels like to support a foreign entity with passion and therefore cannot relate hence your narrow viewscope.

I really don't understand why less serious fans get so upset when they come across more serious ones. So what if you aren't as passionate? What's wrong with admitting it? But no, they have to justify why they are just as serious although they know and do less. Status in any society is earned not given, by and large anyway. If you come across a fan of 30 years who knows the ins and outs of his team, why feel the need to justify that you are on par with him when you don't think reading or history is important? Just admit that the other bloke is more passionate because he put in much more effort. Meritocracy right? There will always be someone who knows more and when you come across them, what's wrong with learning? Why do I frequent RAWK? Because there are a number of really knowledgeable posters who know so much and have personal stories you can read that you won't find anywhere else...

...and yes, I have read about the said fan and I have commented.

Yes it is mine. Time and time again I've had to explain that back in the day before ASTRO we only got to watch a handful of teams play. So what? Support a team I never get to watch? Supporting a shit team makes me less of a glory hunter?

No, your interpretation on my analogy of cars is wrong. My point is you don't always support or like a local product. Open your eyes to the fact the borders are being broken down and the world the getting smaller. No not physically but figuratively. With the advent of technology i.e. the internet, we are exposed to a wealth of information that we never were before. If you want to live under this little nutshell of yours, that's your perogative but don't brand others who embrace the rest of the world as traitors.

As for your reference to people having second teams but still holding their local team in high regard, think bigger. It isn't just about football is it? Well maybe it is to you but some people have other reasons to not feel any affinity for their own state. For some, its hard to love a country that treats you like a 2nd class citizen. All Thai's love their country. Do all Malaysians? Yeah maybe you do but there are reasons why some don't, ranging from racial to political ones. This as I've said many times is a topic to be discussed on the "Real World Issues" forum. Perhaps you should pop by there to understand this more.

So youre definition of glory hunter is someone that supports a more fanciful team than a local one? Flawed logic. What if my local team were the more fanciful team? So thats ok then? The term "glory hunter" suggests someone who seeks to attach themselves to continued success. Do you have some other definition of the word that is at least relevant? Is a smoker who quits, still a smoker? Is a person who supports a club who isn't winning trophies continously still a "glory hunter"? Since you've given yourself the liberty to dictate what is definitive, let me just say that you argument if flawed because your rationalistion makes little sense.

Given the choice, I choose to support something I believe in rather than blindly supporting something I don't for no other reason than being born there. If this makes me a "glory hunter" by your defintion, then so be it because your definition is closed minded and flawed.

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Added on January 27, 2011, 10:45 amHow is this even relevant to the topic? You feel the need to surround yourself with fellow lemmings? Forget the fact that we do organise gatherings and forget the fact that in 2005, we watched the Champions League final with 2000 other fans. Are you lonely or something? Yea a ticket abroad is expensive and hence saving up and going for a game, if only one game is more meaningful. A working adult getting up at 3am just to watch his team play, celebrating in the still of the night means less than prancing about with your mates? Since stadiums only fit 20,000 - 60,000 fans generally, I guess the millions of other locals are miserable cunts who have to watch the game at home. Yeah I didn't realise that. Thanks for pointing all that out by the way.


"Lost their soul"?

I've picked out some relevant definition of "soul".



Does it say, "...essential element or part of something LOCAL"? Maybe you have your own definition other than the one everyone else uses? Seems to be a norm.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 27 2011, 01:47 PM

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. All that can be asked is one do some research before forming an opinion. What disgusts me is the closed door belief that just because you are miles away from some place, you can't relate to it. Here is some evidence that you can. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I've posted this link a couple of times already on the Liverpool thread. It's a video of Reds in Indonesia holding their own memorial for Hillsborough. Have the all been to Liverpool? Did they only do this for show? for glory? You be the judge.



Jonno himself was interviewed by Liverpool's official website for their "Reds Around the World" column.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news...-world-malaysia

In one of the gatherings, MyRAWK members sold their own memorabilia to raise funds for Hillsborough. For what? For glory?

Yes fans come together during the good times but they stay together because of the bad times.

P/S: For fans of other clubs, I can't use any of your examples since I'm not as familiar with them.

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Added on January 27, 2011, 2:53 pmThe reluctance to accept that we are no longer constrained by borders, whether they be technological, sociocultural, political or biological effectively effectively renders any attempt to impart reason, impossible. Let me take the liberty of sharing what I've come across in respect to this, just to prove that cultures can and already have spread. I'll limit it to wikipedia for now. Not conclusive but far more credible that what some of us have posted here. If challenged will I only strive to find more literature.

It is archane to still believe that you need to be physically present at a particular place to know about it. It renders the whole "must support local" argument irrelavant because people no longer only know about the place they are born in. In the past when the world kept to themselves, maybe. Ignorance means we see what we see as the truth, until proven otherwise. So why stay ignorant now that we don't have to? The local phrase, "katak di bawah tempurung" springs to mind.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 27 2011, 03:02 PM

I firmly believe that loyalty should be a choice, and not mandatory. A person should not be forced to be part of something, he should be inspired. Lt. Col. James H. Doolittle once said, "there's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer" and he's right.

So if you like to talk about football, should I tell you to voice your opinions at FAMs annual assembly?

Why I don't get is why you see the need to interject when you have nothing to contribute? If you don't think that it's relevant then post something that is FFS!

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 27 2011, 04:13 PM

What kind of contribution? Have you even posted an opinion on the topic? Go missing for pages, and then come back as though you're the forum police?

You haven't heard of citing references apparently? People do it sometimes to back up opinions. Maybe it's alien to you but I learned to do it in school. Just because I can make sense out of it and have more than 2 lines worth of thoughts to share, it makes me a smartass? So not having an opinion makes you a dumbass?