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Serious Diamonds are forever, The most romantic stones

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TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 12:01 PM, updated 15y ago

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QUOTE
Plenty of girls/guys do not know much about diamond, why some are expensive why some are cheap, why tiffany diamond cost twice as much as poh kong? am I conned? am I conned by my bf?

I was involve in Diamond wholesale since 2000, I can share quite a few things even tho am a bit rusty but I think should be reliable.

poll ends tomoro 11am, if yes then we shall create a thread all about diamonds, BTW voting the no3 option is consider spoiled vote rclxms.gif


Every girl looks forward to the day when they are surprise by the love of their life with a tiny red velvet box, opened and you will be mesmerized by the glittering play of fire, luster from the most romantic stones set in a ring of precious metal. For this ring is the beginning of the sacred matrimony, the promised of commitment, and the day to be remember for as long as you live.

However the guy goes through a ton of confusion, as most guy knows near zero of the complication of buying a diamond, a diamond is near as complicated as the girl they want to live with. I hope this thread will be helpful and give you better understanding.

Diamonds are complicated with too many criteria to scrutinize, just a single pinhead inclusion viewable only with an 10X magnifier could plunge its value from a few hundred to thousands. This thread purpose is to help prospect diamond customer to better understand the value and diamond itself before buying that precious stone for your proposal ring.

I was in the gemstone wholesale industry since 2000, but had stopped trading diamonds since 2004 and dealt with other custume jewellerys, I'll share with you as much as I know and tho a bit rusty, since gemstone industry progress pretty fast with all kind of synthetic and fake duplicating technology coming up every year. However most of the knowledge is still pretty useful.

Diamonds are graded with a 10X magnifier/loop, you can see more inclusion (inperfection/foreign particle) with a greater magnifier eg 20X or a microscope but that wont be included in the grading report. So whatever seen with a 10X loop is all that matters to the value of your stone.

There is the famous 4Cs to value, mainly Cut, clarity, color and carat.

Cut

Cut is the most important criteria, which unfortunately the certificate tells us very little about, there is still too much space and loopholes to play around. Cut is also the make or break of a diamond. A 58 facet and 90 over facet cut can have a huge difference in fire and lustre. Hearts and Arrow are pattern symmetry but there may lose fire play to traditional cut. Also remember not all hearts and Arrow are equal, Dont think just because your diamond possessed the H&A and you've the best cut diamonds, it only means your diamond are cut with a hearts and arrow pattern thats all.

Cut can also determine the visual size of your diamond, a 1 cts stone may look bigger like a 1.3 cts stone if the table is cut slight larger in proportion, but there is always a penalty somewhere.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Clarity

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Color

A tip for the not millionaires, buy F color diamond, it is very difficult for an untrained eye to differentiate between a D and F colored stone, save the rest of your money for the other 3 Cs.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



Carat
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



If you're planning to buy a 0.30 or bigger stone, I would always go for a stone with certificate, the famous industry standard are from

GIA (Gemological Institute of America)
AGS (American Gem Society)

These 2 cert are the popular traded diamond in Malaysia, however we also have our local gemology's Mr Chris Lam who would issue a Diamond grading report.

I always prefer an F color stones with a hint of florescent presents in the stones, slight florescent will make the stone look more colorless or whiter, and in certain sunny condition your stone may have a slight blue tint which I like very much.

You can learn how to read a diamond cert here http://www.diamondring.com/forums/diamondt...al.php?learn=19

When shopping for diamonds ...ASK the shop to show you the latest RAPAPORT, this is the industry pricing of diamond in USD. Rapaport are issued every fortnightly and the prices differs, how much discount you get will depend on your negotiating skill.


Spoiler part are taken from http://www.esva.net/~jhilton/4c.html and http://pages.ebay.co.uk/buy/guides/diamonds-buying-guide/ since I'm too lazy to type out these standard criteria tongue.gif

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 24 2009, 12:54 PM
peinsama
post Apr 23 2009, 12:03 PM

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I would really love to know what's happening to. So this is why i would like to post here first.
mouldybread
post Apr 23 2009, 12:05 PM

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lol, i think i should be educated too. so how come tiffany is more expensive than pk?
MauveMarionette
post Apr 23 2009, 12:05 PM

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laugh.gif

I'll get the secondthird spot then. I'd love to know the how, what, and why about diamonds. smile.gif To what extend do one use that knowledge is their own responsibility. Correct?

dry.gif

This post has been edited by MauveMarionette: Apr 23 2009, 12:06 PM
^Hobbes^
post Apr 23 2009, 12:11 PM

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Diamonds are forever brows.gif

That forever may cause more future damage to your wallet and once obsessed, there's hardly any cure to it tongue.gif

From what i understand there's this 5C rules for diamonds

Cut
Clarity
Color
Carat
Cost

This post has been edited by ^Hobbes^: Apr 23 2009, 12:11 PM
King83
post Apr 23 2009, 12:13 PM

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yes, but not in CC
TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 12:16 PM

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QUOTE(mouldybread @ Apr 23 2009, 12:05 PM)
lol, i think i should be educated too. so how come tiffany is more expensive than pk?
*
Tiffany diamonds are cut differently with 90facet as compared to the normal brilliant 58 facet cut, besides that tiffany is also a brand and they're the one that invented the solitaire ring so its like an LV magnet to girls in thier dream list.

QUOTE(King83 @ Apr 23 2009, 12:13 PM)
yes, but not in CC
*
I think CC is the correct place since this is where love and diamond are fused

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 23 2009, 12:16 PM
7chai
post Apr 23 2009, 12:19 PM

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Diamonds are forever forever forever
Throw ya diamonds in the sky
If you feel the vibe
Diamonds are forever forever forever
The ROC is still alive
Everytime I rhyme
Forever and ever!
For ever ever? for ever ever? ever ever?
Ever ever? ever ever? ever ever? ever ever?
legolego
post Apr 23 2009, 12:32 PM

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Yeah, I want to know why tiffany diamond cost twice as much as poh kong.
TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 01:04 PM

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QUOTE(legolego @ Apr 23 2009, 12:32 PM)
Yeah, I want to know why tiffany diamond cost twice as much as poh kong.
*
mah answer edi lo above
kitten
post Apr 23 2009, 01:09 PM

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maybe post this in girl's club better?
legolego
post Apr 23 2009, 01:10 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 23 2009, 01:04 PM)
mah answer edi lo above
*
ow, now only see it tongue.gif
kazebert
post Apr 23 2009, 01:28 PM

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Diamond are rated accordingly to the quality of it....
If they are cut ( from raw ) with a GIA cert , they cost 30-50% more of those without the certificate..
GIA certificate means Gemological institute of America. Meaning they are cut with the precise measurement...it's like a prefect diamond shape

Besides that ... the colour of it.. eventho it's a Crystal colour , it has 3-5 types of crystal... The more expensive one, would be whiter.. yellow = cheap ... this must be look under the microscope only you can differenciate it....

This post has been edited by kazebert: Apr 23 2009, 01:28 PM
7chai
post Apr 23 2009, 01:29 PM

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QUOTE(kazebert @ Apr 23 2009, 01:28 PM)
Diamond are rated accordingly to the quality of it....
If they are cut ( from raw ) with a GIA cert , they cost 30-50% more of those without the certificate..
GIA certificate means Gemological institute of America. Meaning they are cut with the precise measurement...it's like a prefect diamond shape

Besides that ... the colour of it.. eventho it's a Crystal colour , it has 3-5 types of crystal... The more expensive one, would be whiter.. yellow = cheap ... this must be look under the microscope only you can differenciate it....
*
umm umm, the pro designer had spoken rclxms.gif
silverhawk
post Apr 23 2009, 01:34 PM

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Diamonds are the perfect example of not knowing the true value of an object, and in my opinion, diamonds represent being superficial and ignorant.

Diamonds aren't really rare, nor are they really "precious" stones. In fact, diamonds are so common, that in the past loyalty and the rich wouldn't use diamonds because its considered "low class" and worthless.

The only reason diamonds are what they are now is due to the incredible marketing campaign by De Beers and its monopoly on the market, where they control the supply.


TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 01:38 PM

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QUOTE(kazebert @ Apr 23 2009, 01:28 PM)
Diamond are rated accordingly to the quality of it....
If they are cut ( from raw ) with a GIA cert , they cost 30-50% more of those without the certificate..
*
Actually yes and no, why a lot ppl like to play with non-cert diamond, if you're very good in grading diamond you can make money with these stones. A VS1 and VS2 are very marginal same as D and E color stones.

If you see a non-cert diamond as D and the shop personal grading is E then you make money,
But if the shop is not honest or ignorant a E diamond he sell you as D color then you lose money.


QUOTE(kazebert @ Apr 23 2009, 01:28 PM)
GIA certificate means Gemological institute of America. Meaning they are cut with the precise measurement...it's like a prefect diamond shape

*
Again yes and no
A diamond certificate can only accurately tells you the color, carat, polishing and so on but the most tricky part is the cut and this is where people get confuse and shop makes money.

QUOTE(kazebert @ Apr 23 2009, 01:28 PM)

Besides that ... the colour of it.. eventho it's a Crystal colour , it has 3-5 types or crystal... The more expensive one, would be whiter.. yellow = cheap ... this must be look under the microscope only you can differenciate it....
*
Yes and No, Yes is the whiter the more expensive, but the vivid color can be more expensive than the clearest of all diamond, eg a true red diamond can be more expensive than a D colored diamond of the same spec, vivid colored are call fancy color diamond.

And grading color do not require a microscpe, you just compare the diamond on a diamond colored chart in 6500 florescent light (Daylight).
kitten
post Apr 23 2009, 01:40 PM

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is diamond a better investment than gold?
TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 01:44 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 01:34 PM)
Diamonds are the perfect example of not knowing the true value of an object, and in my opinion, diamonds represent being superficial and ignorant.

Diamonds aren't really rare, nor are they really "precious" stones. In fact, diamonds are so common, that in the past loyalty and the rich wouldn't use diamonds because its considered "low class" and worthless.

The only reason diamonds are what they are now is due to the incredible marketing campaign by De Beers and its monopoly on the market, where they control the supply.
*
Diamond is infact a precious stone no doubt about this, about value, well value has always been the human factor and not by a few minority. eg Rolex watch, its a production thing, they can make how many they want to, but yet Rolex holds its value because majority wants it.

QUOTE(kitten @ Apr 23 2009, 01:40 PM)
is diamond a better investment than gold?
*
No for the normal diamond of below 5 carat
Yes for a highend D color, IF, above 5 carat stones.
@eMiLy
post Apr 23 2009, 01:44 PM

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QUOTE(kitten @ Apr 23 2009, 01:40 PM)
is diamond a better investment than gold?
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Do you see countries keeping diamond in the treasury depository? smile.gif
kitten
post Apr 23 2009, 01:45 PM

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QUOTE(@eMiLy @ Apr 23 2009, 01:44 PM)
Do you see countries keeping diamond in the treasury depository? smile.gif
*
makes sense. But how about common people?
TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 01:48 PM

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QUOTE(@eMiLy @ Apr 23 2009, 01:44 PM)
Do you see countries keeping diamond in the treasury depository? smile.gif
*
You cannot say this, a monet is also a good investment but we dun see treasury using them as deposit?
Gold are used as currency, whereelse diamonds are not, but highend diamond is infact a good investment thats why you see soberty house always auctioning big stones and all the rich and famous will bid them.


styrwr91
post Apr 23 2009, 01:58 PM

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myb u can post sum pic of diamonds and let ppl noe the characteristics of diamonds
@eMiLy
post Apr 23 2009, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 23 2009, 01:48 PM)
You cannot say this, a monet is also a good investment but we dun see treasury using them as deposit?
Gold are used as currency, whereelse diamonds are not, but highend diamond is infact a good investment thats why you see soberty house always auctioning big stones and all the rich and famous will bid them.
*
Well, my point is that we are comparing between diamonds and golds, Am aware that some rare diamond are able fetch unbelievable price in the market however thats if you are rich enough to get those. As for golds, you can say that its equivalent to money in its way, also it is better to bet on gold if in case monetary system fails and it is more steady in terms of value in the market.
TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 02:06 PM

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QUOTE(@eMiLy @ Apr 23 2009, 02:03 PM)
Well, my point is that we are comparing between diamonds and golds, Am aware that some rare diamond are able fetch unbelievable price in the market however thats if you are rich enough to get those. As for golds, you can say that its equivalent to money in its way, also it is better to bet on gold if in case monetary system fails and it is more steady in terms of value in the market.
*
BTW gold trading and actually going to poh kong buy gold and keep is different thing, you buy gold they charge you for workmanship and it can be anything from 20 - 40% more of its value, and when you sell again yu may not get market price.

When market good (gold price up) you cannot sell for cash, you can however trade things in the shop.


Added on April 23, 2009, 2:13 pmactually why move this thread at girls club?
Diamond for proposal ring should be at CC right? So many guys open thread wanna buy diamond ring for proposal at CC instead of at girls club.

Girls dont buy diamond, its the guy that buys diamond for us mah drool.gif

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 23 2009, 02:13 PM
cskeong
post Apr 23 2009, 02:37 PM

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diamonds..........diamonds are made up of carbon. yes carbon. a cheap and plentiful element in the world lol.pencil lead, over roasted bbq meat, charcoal, burnt human remains etc etc cheapo carbon. now why is this cheap carbon of a diamond is so expensive? how come diamond is not black in color??? the answer is in the arrangement of the atoms. the carbon atoms in diamonds are arranged in tetrahedron shape which is strong and bla bla bla....in short diamonds are expensive carbons which is......honestly.....i can't afford it lol.
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post Apr 23 2009, 02:52 PM

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Yew. i lost one side of my earing diamond which bought at diamond platinum.. asked them to design back the left side it cost me almost the new pair. then i said i trade with u la.. then they said diamond no value .. really wtf... as i knew value of gold is better than diamond right??? but the design of tiffinay really nice...

This post has been edited by cutiepooh: Apr 23 2009, 02:54 PM
SeaMonster
post Apr 23 2009, 03:19 PM

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My Credit Card Bang After I Bought 1Unit Diamond Ring For My Wife . .

She Is Asking For Bigger Unit Now. . Omg. .
meteoraniac
post Apr 23 2009, 04:21 PM

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in before moorish starts selling diamonds in this thread ... .

wink.gif

jus kiddin' ..
rourou
post Apr 23 2009, 04:46 PM

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oo by the way.. i wanna ask... a friend told me about man made diamonds.... i don't really know how to say.. i have forgotten what they're called but i think it's made in the US. what is clear is that it is much cheaper than "real" diamonds.

i'm the kinda person who's a bit paranoid when it comes to jewellery...... after seeing ppl being robbed in front of myself, i only wear costume jewelleries nowadays... so when my friend brought it up i was pretty excited (even kena robbed also not so sakit hati tongue.gif) where can get? and from the naked eyes, can one really tell the difference?
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post Apr 23 2009, 05:06 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 23 2009, 01:44 PM)
Diamond is infact a precious stone no doubt about this, about value, well value has always been the human factor and not by a few minority. eg Rolex watch, its a production thing, they can make how many they want to, but yet Rolex holds its value because majority wants it.
*

There is "perceived value" and "true value". The perceived value of diamonds is high, but its true value is low. You can point me at some really rare diamonds, but face it, you can't afford those. Most diamonds bought by the majority of people aren't worth their asking price nor are they really special in any form or way. Its only prevalent because of De Beer's marketing which have gotten girls hooked onto it. "Diamonds are forever"... right.

You used Rolex watches as an example, have you handled an actual Rolex watch? I'm pretty sure you have, the build and quality of a Rolex watch justifies its asking price. There's a certain level of quality guaranteed with an original Rolex watch. With diamonds, what's the value? You can talk about the cut, chemical/structural purity, etc. and a synthetic diamond would exceed natural diamonds in those qualities. Yet "natural diamonds" are more expensive and perceived to be better... why?

This is why I say diamonds are the epitome of superficialness.

QUOTE(rourou @ Apr 23 2009, 04:46 PM)
oo by the way.. i wanna ask... a friend told me about man made diamonds.... i don't really know how to say.. i have forgotten what they're called but i think it's made in the US.  what is clear is that it is much cheaper than "real" diamonds. 

i'm the kinda person who's a bit paranoid when it comes to jewellery...... after seeing ppl being robbed in front of myself, i only wear costume jewelleries nowadays... so when my friend brought it up i was pretty excited (even kena robbed also not so sakit hati tongue.gif) where can get?  and from the naked eyes, can one really tell the difference?
*
Synthetic diamonds smile.gif You wouldn't be able to tell from the naked eye, you have to be trained to spot the difference. Not only that, if you actually check it, its form is far more perfect than natural diamonds biggrin.gif
TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 05:42 PM

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QUOTE(rourou @ Apr 23 2009, 04:46 PM)
oo by the way.. i wanna ask... a friend told me about man made diamonds.... i don't really know how to say.. i have forgotten what they're called but i think it's made in the US.  what is clear is that it is much cheaper than "real" diamonds. 

i'm the kinda person who's a bit paranoid when it comes to jewellery...... after seeing ppl being robbed in front of myself, i only wear costume jewelleries nowadays... so when my friend brought it up i was pretty excited (even kena robbed also not so sakit hati tongue.gif) where can get?  and from the naked eyes, can one really tell the difference?
*
I think you're talking about moizanite with a hardest of 9.5

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 05:06 PM)
There is "perceived value" and "true value". The perceived value of diamonds is high, but its true value is low. You can point me at some really rare diamonds, but face it, you can't afford those. Most diamonds bought by the majority of people aren't worth their asking price nor are they really special in any form or way. Its only prevalent because of De Beer's marketing which have gotten girls hooked onto it. "Diamonds are forever"... right.

You used Rolex watches as an example, have you handled an actual Rolex watch? I'm pretty sure you have, the build and quality of a Rolex watch justifies its asking price. There's a certain level of quality guaranteed with an original Rolex watch. With diamonds, what's the value? You can talk about the cut, chemical/structural purity, etc. and a synthetic diamond would exceed natural diamonds in those qualities. Yet "natural diamonds" are more expensive and perceived to be better... why?

*
Then what about gold? why is gold so expensive? do you know they're more gold than gem quality diamond? and whats so valuable about gold when you can have superior alloy that can be made harder than gold. Pure gold cannot make anything, you make ring they're so soft to the point of unusable.

In the end like I say, the value of everything is perceive by the majority of the people on planet earth, why is LV so expensive when the cost of the bag is only 10% of the selling price or even less.

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 05:06 PM)
This is why I say diamonds are the epitome of superficialness.
Synthetic diamonds smile.gif You wouldn't be able to tell from the naked eye, you have to be trained to spot the difference. Not only that, if you actually check it, its form is far more perfect than natural diamonds biggrin.gif
*
Not synthetic diamond la, synthetic diamond is more expensive than real diamond.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 23 2009, 05:44 PM
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post Apr 23 2009, 05:57 PM

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QUOTE(SeaMonster @ Apr 23 2009, 03:19 PM)
My Credit Card Bang After I Bought 1Unit Diamond Ring For My Wife . .

She Is Asking For Bigger Unit Now. . Omg. .

Your "unit" not big enough issit biggrin.gif biggrin.gif ... that one cannot really do anything about it one woh ...
nottyKitty
post Apr 23 2009, 06:02 PM

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Okay good info.

Btw i like to ask also, why is Tiffany's SILVER necklace can be more expensive than diamond n gold necklace from normal shop?
slushie
post Apr 23 2009, 06:07 PM

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i am not really keen on diamonds yet... smile.gif maybe i haven't reached the stage yet.. tongue.gif
rourou
post Apr 23 2009, 06:13 PM

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ok now which is the cheaper version :faint::faint: synthetic or moizanite?? maybe i should just stick to crystals sweat.gif

slushie... me neither laugh.gif
Cheesenium
post Apr 23 2009, 06:27 PM

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I would like to learn a bit about tetrahedral shaped compunds,called diamonds.
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post Apr 23 2009, 06:28 PM

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wow. i know nothing about diamonds.. >_<
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post Apr 23 2009, 06:40 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 23 2009, 05:42 PM)
Then what about gold? why is gold so expensive? do you know they're more gold than gem quality diamond? and whats so valuable about gold when you can have superior alloy that can be made harder than gold. Pure gold cannot make anything, you make ring they're so soft to the point of unusable.

In the end like I say, the value of everything is perceive by the majority of the people on planet earth, why is LV so expensive when the cost of the bag is only 10% of the selling price or even less.

Hence the difference of "perceived value" and "true value". Its why guys think girls are incredibly stupid for spending so much on an LV bag, and why girls are all crazy about it tongue.gif The fact is, most people will get away with fakes, and the same is true with diamonds, the inflated costs is quite ridiculous.

If we want to educate people on diamonds, then shouldn't they be educated on both the history on diamonds as well as the issues entangled with the production and distribution of diamonds? They are pretty stones no doubt, but its like someone selling fake goods at insane prices and everyone believes its real. The marked up prices only exists because the illusion of exclusivity is there.

QUOTE
Not synthetic diamond la, synthetic diamond is more expensive than real diamond.
*
Har? What would you have to back that? I remember seeing the prices of synthetic and real diamonds and the synthetics were always cheaper. It makes sense too, since you can easily produce them in labs rather than funding an entire mining operation.
rourou
post Apr 23 2009, 06:50 PM

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wei... don't include LV bags into it.. that's different issues ok... i'm a firm believer that these bags are worth the price okie tongue.gif tongue.gif
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post Apr 23 2009, 06:52 PM

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QUOTE(rourou @ Apr 23 2009, 06:50 PM)
wei... don't include LV bags into it.. that's different issues ok... i'm a firm believer that these bags are worth the price okie tongue.gif tongue.gif
*
laugh.gif women.. rolleyes.gif
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post Apr 23 2009, 06:53 PM

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QUOTE(rourou @ Apr 23 2009, 06:50 PM)
wei... don't include LV bags into it.. that's different issues ok... i'm a firm believer that these bags are worth the price okie tongue.gif tongue.gif
*
totally agree!!! bags serve more practical purposes than diamonds.. tongue.gif
rourou
post Apr 23 2009, 06:54 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 06:52 PM)
laugh.gif women.. rolleyes.gif
*
eh eh don't get all sexist on this issue tongue.gif tongue.gif you don't see us complaining about your gadgets okie~~ there's guys who buys the designers stuff as well k~~ i've got a fren who wouldn't wear any other blouse unless it's tailored made by starks workshop rolleyes.gif


Added on April 23, 2009, 6:55 pm
QUOTE(slushie @ Apr 23 2009, 06:53 PM)
totally agree!!! bags serve more practical purposes than diamonds.. tongue.gif
*
well, there's jewellery gals, there's bags gals, there's shoes gals so.... laugh.gif i'll say whatever makes you happy.

This post has been edited by rourou: Apr 23 2009, 06:55 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 23 2009, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(rourou @ Apr 23 2009, 06:54 PM)
eh eh don't get all sexist on this issue tongue.gif tongue.gif you don't see us complaining about your gadgets okie~~  there's guys who buys the designers stuff as well k~~ i've got a fren who wouldn't wear any other blouse unless it's tailored made by starks workshop rolleyes.gif
*
You can't compare handbags to gadgets rolleyes.gif tongue.gif

Cheesenium
post Apr 23 2009, 06:57 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 06:55 PM)
You can't compare handbags to gadgets rolleyes.gif tongue.gif
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Yeap,a 295GTX is better than a piece of stone. tongue.gif
rourou
post Apr 23 2009, 07:06 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 06:55 PM)
You can't compare handbags to gadgets rolleyes.gif tongue.gif
*
different things makes different ppl happy tongue.gif tongue.gif
TSmoorish
post Apr 23 2009, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 06:40 PM)
Hence the difference of "perceived value" and "true value". Its why guys think girls are incredibly stupid for spending so much on an LV bag, and why girls are all crazy about it tongue.gif The fact is, most people will get away with fakes, and the same is true with diamonds, the inflated costs is quite ridiculous.

If we want to educate people on diamonds, then shouldn't they be educated on both the history on diamonds as well as the issues entangled with the production and distribution of diamonds? They are pretty stones no doubt, but its like someone selling fake goods at insane prices and everyone believes its real. The marked up prices only exists because the illusion of exclusivity is there.
Har? What would you have to back that? I remember seeing the prices of synthetic and real diamonds and the synthetics were always cheaper. It makes sense too, since you can easily produce them in labs rather than funding an entire mining operation.
*
Well, its only your personal opinion, I shall not debate with you, but just remember this; majority of the world agrees that a 1 carat D color VVS2 stone is priced at RM40,000.00 if you think its worth RM400 its only your opinion and you shall never get it at that price.

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 23 2009, 06:40 PM)

Har? What would you have to back that? I remember seeing the prices of synthetic and real diamonds and the synthetics were always cheaper. It makes sense too, since you can easily produce them in labs rather than funding an entire mining operation.
*
I think you should come out with the fact that synthetic diamonds are cheaper than real diamond since you claim so, or maybe you're confused with what is synthetic diamond and fake diamond.
dafreak
post Apr 23 2009, 08:12 PM

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im sure that synthetic diamonds are cheaper...they are used in cutting tools or tools to polish diamonds
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post Apr 23 2009, 10:16 PM

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QUOTE(Cheesenium @ Apr 23 2009, 06:57 PM)
Yeap,a 295GTX is better than a piece of stone. tongue.gif
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I'm with you in this.
chocoholic221
post Apr 23 2009, 10:19 PM

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option 3 is equivalent to option 2.
so the votes for 'No' should include for option 3 as well.
happy4ever
post Apr 23 2009, 11:23 PM

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I'd rather buy a maid to serve the lady than a diamond, unless there is a high resale value at later time, like gold, for long term investment.


Added on April 23, 2009, 11:24 pm
QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 23 2009, 02:51 PM)
Mod I've created a thread regarding diamonds as I feel and read so many thread came up regarding proposal ring, but somehow the thread had been move to girls club which I feel is not the correct place.

CC is the right place to learn about diamond for proposal ring.

1st when a guy wanna know about proposal ring, the ring isnt the problem its the diamond that is expensive and confusing, as not many ppl know much about diamond

2nd, Girls dun buy diamond, guys buy them for us.

3rd so many threads about proposal ring allowed in CC why diamond thread moved?

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1008054
*
From http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1008217

Its so true rclxms.gif

Any guy wanna buy diamond for me??? I'll make his night a night of paradise! wub.gif

This post has been edited by happy4ever: Apr 23 2009, 11:24 PM
kazebert
post Apr 23 2009, 11:30 PM

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My bf never worries about buying me jewellery...
lol.. since my whole family is in it...
haha....
he always say ," i dun need to go worry about what kind of engagement ring i should get for u , i just have to ask from your dad "
sweat.gif
happy4ever
post Apr 23 2009, 11:34 PM

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QUOTE(kazebert @ Apr 23 2009, 11:30 PM)
My bf never worries about buying me jewellery...
lol.. since my whole family is in it...
haha....
he always say ," i dun need to go worry about what kind of engagement ring i should get for u , i just have to ask from your dad "
sweat.gif
*
Do you mind if you give me your bf's contact number?

I'd like to have him as my bf too. You don't mind sharing, do you? blush.gif
kazebert
post Apr 23 2009, 11:38 PM

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QUOTE(happy4ever @ Apr 23 2009, 11:34 PM)
Do you mind if you give me your bf's contact number?

I'd like to have him as my bf too. You don't mind sharing, do you?  blush.gif
*
hahaha..
u want LDR ? lol..
why u need his no. anyway??
he is the one getting the rings from my company.. lol..

This post has been edited by kazebert: Apr 23 2009, 11:39 PM
happy4ever
post Apr 23 2009, 11:42 PM

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QUOTE(kazebert @ Apr 23 2009, 11:38 PM)
hahaha..
u want LDR ? lol..
why u need his no. anyway??
he is the one getting the rings from my company.. lol..
*
oh ok, then can we be lesbo partners? wub.gif
or if you have a brother, a dad, anyone?
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post Apr 23 2009, 11:47 PM

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QUOTE(happy4ever @ Apr 23 2009, 11:42 PM)
oh ok, then can we be lesbo partners?  wub.gif
or if you have a brother, a dad, anyone?
*
LoL....
whistling.gif
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post Apr 24 2009, 09:07 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 23 2009, 07:23 PM)
Well, its only your personal opinion, I shall not debate with you, but just remember this; majority of the world agrees that a 1 carat D color VVS2 stone is priced at RM40,000.00 if you think its worth RM400 its only your opinion and you shall never get it at that price.
I think you should come out with the fact that synthetic diamonds are cheaper than real diamond since you claim so, or maybe you're confused with what is synthetic diamond and fake diamond.
*
yes its the perception value, just like how the stock market is. example, a particular company on the main board is selling for 2rm per unit but is in reality worth only 1rm per unit. but this does not stop people from buying/trading it at 2rm per unit as everybody else has accepted the 2rm benchmark.

ok i got myself burnt recently at stocks sad.gif

2 cents
rourou
post Apr 24 2009, 09:38 AM

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hrm.. so for colour vice... ABCDEFGHI.... A denotes the best and the rest follow suit....

what about all those VVS1 VVS2..... how to differentiate
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post Apr 24 2009, 10:40 AM

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chey~~~

I tot what...

Really thought that this topic was going to about my favourite show, Blood Diamond.

Girls should really know where most of these diamonds come from.
TSmoorish
post Apr 24 2009, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 23 2009, 08:12 PM)
im sure that synthetic diamonds are cheaper...they are used in cutting tools or tools to polish diamonds
*
Not all synthetic diamond are of gem quality, even in nature 80% of diamond are of non gem quality.

QUOTE(rourou @ Apr 24 2009, 09:38 AM)
hrm.. so for colour vice... ABCDEFGHI.... A denotes the best and the rest follow suit....

what about all those VVS1 VVS2..... how to differentiate
*
The highest grade for color is D
The highest grade for clarity is F
dafreak
post Apr 24 2009, 02:52 PM

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check this

synthetic diamonds wiki
Krovaxq
post Apr 24 2009, 03:26 PM

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....oh..

n i thought this is some sesat MLM thread in CC hahaha...


good infos there, never really knew in-depth diamonds..
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post Apr 24 2009, 03:48 PM

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QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 24 2009, 02:52 PM)
check this

synthetic diamonds wiki
*
I think Diamond is very closely related to romance and tradition, over the years they have been many enhancement technology to make diamond cheaper, eg Laser drilling to remove particles, this will upgrade your S1 diamond to VVS1, minus the exorbitant price but somehow the consumer acceptance has been poor.

Why do people pay nearly double the cost of VVS1 from S1 when its near impossible to see the differences with your naked eye?

As mention Diamonds are so closely related to romance and the prove of love, so by cheating there will kill the romanticism. Most people will still look for the real thing for a proposal ring. Maybe for normal accessories like earrings you can go for synthetic diamond, but until now I've yet to come across a single pc in malaysia.
Baronic
post Apr 24 2009, 03:53 PM

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Pinned thread, since its going somewhere
kenji1903
post Apr 24 2009, 04:01 PM

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QUOTE(rourou @ Apr 24 2009, 09:38 AM)
hrm.. so for colour vice... ABCDEFGHI.... A denotes the best and the rest follow suit....

what about all those VVS1 VVS2..... how to differentiate
*
DEF GHI JKL, etc etc... for clear diamonds, colours go on only up till a certain alphabet... when the colour is different, its graded differently again... the price increases as the colour increases, that's why you have pink diamonds, rubies, emeralds, etc...

anything SI2 and below is viewable with the naked eye, not easy but it can be seen... for me, i'll give up a bit of clarity for better colour and carat...
that why when you go to Tiffany... their diamonds are very expensive though have lower clarity and carat... because they usually give VVS2 and above...
TSmoorish
post Apr 24 2009, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE(Baronic @ Apr 24 2009, 03:53 PM)
Pinned thread, since its going somewhere
*
Thank you Baronic

QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 24 2009, 04:01 PM)
DEF GHI JKL, etc etc... for clear diamonds, colours go on only up till a certain alphabet... when the colour is different, its graded differently again... the price increases as the colour increases, that's why you have pink diamonds, rubies, emeralds, etc...

*
Rubies and emeralds are not diamonds, they're another type of gemstones blink.gif

QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 24 2009, 04:01 PM)
anything SI2 and below is viewable with the naked eye, not easy but it can be seen... for me, i'll give up a bit of clarity for better colour and carat...
*
True

QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 24 2009, 04:01 PM)
that why when you go to Tiffany... their diamonds are very expensive though have lower clarity and carat... because they usually give VVS2 and above...
*
The reason Tiffany diamond is more expensive is because they're cut differently, the fire and lustre are in fact better than our normal diamond.
auhckw
post Apr 24 2009, 04:15 PM

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Bought this for my wife's last year birthday
user posted image
TSmoorish
post Apr 24 2009, 04:19 PM

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Another trick I remember

If you intend to buy diamond that are above F color, set it with gold, the reason is the slightly yellowish diamond will still look white with gold. This is like trick to the eye.

And if you set your proposal ring as solitaire, to make your stone look larger you raise the claw, this will give a 0.50cts look like a 0.60cts.
kenji1903
post Apr 24 2009, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 24 2009, 04:06 PM)
The reason Tiffany diamond is more expensive is because they're cut differently, the fire and lustre are in fact better than our normal diamond.
*
fire and brilliance wise, what do you think of Lazare, Hearts on Fire and Love Diamond as compared to Tiffany?

more facets not necessarily is nicer cos i don't find SK's Brilliant Rose or GoldHearts Brio88 that appealling... just my opinion, no offense whatsoever tongue.gif
Cheesenium
post Apr 24 2009, 05:53 PM

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No wonder Tiffany is so expensive.

And i walk in a Tiffany thinking of getting something from there.
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post Apr 24 2009, 06:18 PM

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QUOTE(Cheesenium @ Apr 24 2009, 05:53 PM)
No wonder Tiffany is so expensive.

And i walk in a Tiffany thinking of getting something from there.
*
i read somewhere that Tiffany "invented" the concept of engagement rings...
Tiffany's 6 claw solitaire d@mn syok... too bad my budget cannot allow...
another thing is, their engagement rings are in platinum... and platinum does not have a "real" market rate... its up to the seller to determine

correct me if i'm wrong smile.gif
Cheesenium
post Apr 24 2009, 06:22 PM

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QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 24 2009, 06:18 PM)
i read somewhere that Tiffany "invented" the concept of engagement rings...
Tiffany's 6 claw solitaire d@mn syok... too bad my budget cannot allow...
another thing is, their engagement rings are in platinum... and platinum does not have a "real" market rate... its up to the seller to determine

correct me if i'm wrong smile.gif
*
Oh ok.

Thats gonna be one place i'll never go again.

So expensive.
peinsama
post Apr 24 2009, 07:27 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 24 2009, 03:48 PM)
I think Diamond is very closely related to romance and tradition, over the years they have been many enhancement technology to make diamond cheaper, eg Laser drilling to remove particles, this will upgrade your S1 diamond to VVS1, minus the exorbitant price but somehow the consumer acceptance has been poor.

Why do people pay nearly double the cost of VVS1 from S1 when its near impossible to see the differences with your naked eye?

As mention Diamonds are so closely related to romance and the prove of love, so by cheating there will kill the romanticism.  Most people will still look for the real thing for a proposal ring. Maybe for normal accessories like earrings you can go for synthetic diamond, but until now I've yet to come across a single pc in malaysia.
*
Just to understand things a little further, but since you're a lovely lady, mine telling me more about the close relationship and the fond between women or romance with diamonds?
TSmoorish
post Apr 24 2009, 07:34 PM

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QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 24 2009, 04:59 PM)
fire and brilliance wise, what do you think of Lazare, Hearts on Fire and Love Diamond as compared to Tiffany?

more facets not necessarily is nicer cos i don't find SK's Brilliant Rose or GoldHearts Brio88 that appealling... just my opinion, no offense whatsoever tongue.gif
*
Just my personal opinion, I would prefer Tiffanys over the rest, the fire is just amazing, but unfortunately I cant afford one.

QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 24 2009, 06:18 PM)
i read somewhere that Tiffany "invented" the concept of engagement rings...
Tiffany's 6 claw solitaire d@mn syok... too bad my budget cannot allow...
another thing is, their engagement rings are in platinum... and platinum does not have a "real" market rate... its up to the seller to determine

correct me if i'm wrong smile.gif
*
Yes 6 prong Solitaire was design by Tiffany, and the expensive factor is mainly the design and name of Tiffany.

QUOTE(peinsama @ Apr 24 2009, 07:27 PM)
Just to understand things a little further, but since you're a lovely lady, mine telling me more about the close relationship and the fond between women or romance with diamonds?
*
If you notice woman always love glittering things an Diamond happen to be the most glittering rclxms.gif and of coz its expensive so that makes us want it more.
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 24 2009, 07:36 PM

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Not sure if this has been posted before but it may be useful to those who are interested

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond

TSmoorish
post Apr 24 2009, 07:40 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 24 2009, 07:36 PM)
Not sure if this has been posted before but it may be useful to those who are interested

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond
*
About the control of price in fact most commodity are being manipulated somewhat, oil, gold, silver, bean...
Imagine all the world reserved of gold being dump into the market, gold prices will drop too.
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post Apr 24 2009, 07:49 PM

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Oh yes? Would you like me to quote and highlight other interesting points from that seven page article?

I'll make it clear right now though. I'm not arguing about what's "right" or "wrong". Merely bringing up something that others may find interesting to know. How they interpret it, is up to them.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 24 2009, 07:50 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 24 2009, 07:53 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 24 2009, 07:49 PM)
Oh yes? Would you like me to quote and highlight other interesting points from that seven page article?

I'll make it clear right now though. I'm not arguing about what's "right" or "wrong". Merely bringing up something that others may find interesting to know. How they interpret it, is up to them.
*
Oh go ahead, dun worry I'm not selling diamond biggrin.gif

gosh I've just finish reading your long story, and this report was dated 1980s mad.gif and yet diamond is still going strong now, well maybe the price had ease a bit with this recession.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 24 2009, 08:58 PM
happy4ever
post Apr 24 2009, 10:36 PM

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QUOTE(Baronic @ Apr 24 2009, 03:53 PM)
Pinned thread, since its going somewhere
*
When are you buying one for the missus?
She has been giving hints all over la, dum dum
TSmoorish
post Apr 25 2009, 12:48 PM

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Hearts and arrow diamond pattern cut are invented recently, the success of this diamond is so great that many brands had jump into marketing hearts and arrows diamond. It makes sense to mount this on your proposal ring as hearts and arrow is also the symbol of love (cupid). The meaning and symbol are just so romantic.

user posted image
user posted image


Taken frm wiki the history of hearts and arrows
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 25 2009, 08:00 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 24 2009, 07:40 PM)
About the control of price in fact most commodity are being manipulated somewhat, oil, gold, silver, bean...
Imagine all the world reserved of gold being dump into the market, gold prices will drop too.
*
The difference between those commodities you listed and diamonds is that those commodities have real and useful economic lives. Their prices are also governed by exchanges and markets. You sell for the price that people are willing to buy.

No such exchange or market exists for diamonds.

Has anybody here tried to sell a diamond? You cannot even get wholesale prices for them, because they are simply not worth that much. The diamond industry is essentially a large cartel dedicated to propping up the perceived value of an otherwise useless item.

Has anybody even seen the diamonds being sold in retail outlets nowadays? They're so frickin TINY, your eyes would be hard pressed to pick them out.


Added on April 25, 2009, 8:07 pm
QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 24 2009, 07:53 PM)
gosh I've just finish reading your long story, and this report was dated 1980s mad.gif and yet diamond is still going strong now, well maybe the price had ease a bit with this recession.
*
Yes, this article is the original written in 1982. The article traces the history of the diamond ring from the late 1800's... but the history of the diamond trade goes back longer before that. I'll try to find a few links.

In addition since 1982, there have been NEW developments regarding the diamond trade. These events occurred within living memory. Chances are, those of you reading this thread would have been in school, or in college, or at work when you first heard about the horrifying civil wars in Sierra Leone and Liberia.

Has Mobutu Sese Seko been forgotten already?

The film "Blood Diamond" has actually skirted around the more hideous truths of the diamond trade and stopped short of naming the true perpetrators of a human rights violation that beggars imagination.


I shall also look for the links.

I may also post certain pictures here. I found that pictures and news articles of people having their arms, legs and breasts cut off, gang rape and murder, the usage of child soldiers drugged up on hard narcotics, all committed by militias and warlord forces funded by the diamond trade, has put a damper on my enthusiasm for diamonds.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 25 2009, 08:07 PM
Kinalocos
post Apr 25 2009, 08:16 PM

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this is better than diamonds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggregated_diamond_nanorods
TSmoorish
post Apr 25 2009, 10:16 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 25 2009, 08:00 PM)
The difference between those commodities you listed and diamonds is that those commodities have real and useful economic lives. Their prices are also governed by exchanges and markets. You sell for the price that people are willing to buy.

No such exchange or market exists for diamonds.

Has anybody here tried to sell a diamond? You cannot even get wholesale prices for them, because they are simply not worth that much. The diamond industry is essentially a large cartel dedicated to propping up the perceived value of an otherwise useless item.

Has anybody even seen the diamonds being sold in retail outlets nowadays? They're so frickin TINY, your eyes would be hard pressed to pick them out.

*
FYI, 80% of diamond is in fact very important in our life, most non gem grade diamond are use for cutting and polishing, only a small fraction of diamond is cut for decoration - gemstones.

Infact Diamond do have international exchange rate, they're known as rapaport.

About why a lot of diamond are worth much less when you're selling is because when you;re buying a diamond and as mention VVS1 and SI2 price factor can be double for the same 3 other Cs.

If you bought your diamond as VVS1 and after 5 years of using, wear and tear will happen, scratches or minor chip will happen and your stone is no longer a VVS1.

Another factor, a lot of ppl do not know there is a control price exchange for diamond, that is rapaport, they would have bought a diamond much more expensive than it is worth.

Or market price for diamond has drop when compared to buying, If today you buy gold 916=RM98/g and 3 months later gold price drop to RM78/g, you still lose money.

The shop u went to are not really dealing with diamond so obviously you dun expect a competitive price.

Just like gold, you think when market says 916 = RM98/gram, you think you can buy a ring which is weight 2 gram at RM196? nope you should be buying that 2 gram ring at around RM235, remember the shop needs to make money too. And when you sell you think you can sell at RM98/gram?

they're just so many factors instead of blaming, this thread is to help consumer understand more about what is going on.


QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 25 2009, 08:00 PM)
Yes, this article is the original written in 1982. The article traces the history of the diamond ring from the late 1800's... but the history of the diamond trade goes back longer before that. I'll try to find a few links.

In addition since 1982, there have been NEW developments regarding the diamond trade. These events occurred within living memory. Chances are, those of you reading this thread would have been in school, or in college, or at work when you first heard about the horrifying civil wars in Sierra Leone and Liberia.

Has Mobutu Sese Seko been forgotten already?

The film "Blood Diamond" has actually skirted around the more hideous truths of the diamond trade and stopped short of naming the true perpetrators of a human rights violation that beggars imagination.


I shall also look for the links.

I may also post certain pictures here. I found that pictures and news articles of people having their arms, legs and breasts cut off, gang rape and murder, the usage of child soldiers drugged up on hard narcotics, all committed by militias and warlord forces funded by the diamond trade, has put a damper on my enthusiasm for diamonds.
*
I dont know why you're so against diamond, there is a dark side in everything la, you think the petrol you buying everyday no dark stories behind? people dont die for it? you know war happen because of petrol? This is the world we live in today, its complicated, thats why god made beautiful things for us to enjoy like Diamond.


silverhawk
post Apr 26 2009, 04:18 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 25 2009, 10:16 PM)
I dont know why you're so against diamond, there is a dark side in everything la, you think the petrol you buying everyday no dark stories behind? people dont die for it? you know war happen because of petrol? This is the world we live in today, its complicated, thats why god made beautiful things for us to enjoy like Diamond.
*
The problem is that diamonds have been so romanticised that people just spend money on it. Girls expect it, so guys buy it. When in fact there are so many other gemstones and designs you do which are not limited to diamonds. Incredible marketing by De Beers really.
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post Apr 26 2009, 09:55 AM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 25 2009, 08:00 PM)
Has anybody here tried to sell a diamond? You cannot even get wholesale prices for them, because they are simply not worth that much. The diamond industry is essentially a large cartel dedicated to propping up the perceived value of an otherwise useless item.

Has anybody even seen the diamonds being sold in retail outlets nowadays? They're so frickin TINY, your eyes would be hard pressed to pick them out.

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Ask anyone whom had kept a 0.50 cts diamond since the 1960s or earlier, ask them to evaluate the diamond and see if the value had indeed increase at a minimum 100%, normally the value should be 500 - 1000% increased.

Those who had bought a 0.50cts around 80s may sell at a minimum for the price they pay, normally the value should be 50 - 100% increased.

Another very important factor, most people buy diamond in a set jewellery, the goldsmith charge a high fee for jewellery making and design cost .

And remember this Diamonds are forever, normally when you buy a diamond ring for your wife, that ring is to be kept in your family for the next generations and all the generations that follow. Its a very sound investment and something valuable you can actually pass down.

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 04:18 AM)
The problem is that diamonds have been so romanticised that people just spend money on it. Girls expect it, so guys buy it. When in fact there are so many other gemstones and designs you do which are not limited to diamonds. Incredible marketing by De Beers really.
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Yes incredible marketing, infact they're very successful, and whats wrong with that may I ask? Its not like diamonds are found by debeers, Diamond history goes back thousands of years. And it is still romantic whether market by debeers or not, infact thanks to debeers made popularity of diamond we have better and better technique for cutting the stones to make it look even better.

Yes they're plenty more gemstones, I let you in a little trade secret, the best investment is Ruby and sapphire, in year 2000 sapphire of certain class was going for RM2000/cts wholesale, 7 years later the price jump to RM8000/cts, but unfortunately Ruby and sapphire are not control by any corporate, its a free flow market, only people in the industry and people with in-depth knowledge can agak agak judge the stones value and make money. Normal consumer forget it, chances are so high you would have bought a stone with nearly 1000% inflated value, a stone where you wont make a single sen for the next 100 years.

Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald are expert level stone, dun touch if you're novice or you get burn, stick to diamond. I tell you when I was trading gemstone we were not making money on diamond, it was only a service item, the price and grading are too tightly control. We made our money on other gemstone which have no control.

Consumer are not protected by any specify grading of Ruby and sapphire, what color is higher grade? what clarity is consider good? what cutting is superior? you can only send your sapphire to be issue a cert saying yes this is a genuine sapphire crystal, size so and so, this and that inclusion was present and this is just an identification of your stone...thats it you're done.

The goldsmith can charge you any price they wish to charge because there is no guideline for the consumer or trading of ruby and sapphire. So do you still think other gemstones is your better bet?

So now do you see why debeer was successful with diamond? they made a standard and give people confidence in buying diamond, they set regulation, standard and a systematic way to help consumer. Debeer is actually your fren not your enemy.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 10:10 AM
silverhawk
post Apr 26 2009, 01:16 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 26 2009, 09:55 AM)
And remember this Diamonds are forever, normally when you buy a diamond ring for your wife, that ring is to be kept in your family for the next generations and all the generations that follow. Its a very sound investment and something valuable you can actually pass down

Erm, that can be said of any family heirloom right? It can be a watch, a normal ring, perhaps even a piece of shark tooth that got stuck in your grandfather when he escaped a shark attack. The value of something you pass on for generations is more sentimental than anything monetary.

Perhaps we're coming from 2 different perspectives. You see the gemstone as an investment, I see it as something symbolic. Sentimental value vs Monetary value. Unless you plan to trade in your diamonds/gem stones I don't believe it makes sense as an investment. Who in their right mind would trade in their wedding ring even if diamond prices suddenly shot up 10x?

QUOTE
Yes incredible marketing, infact they're very successful, and whats wrong with that may I ask? Its not like diamonds are found by debeers, Diamond history goes back thousands of years. And it is still romantic whether market by debeers or not, infact thanks to debeers made popularity of diamond we have better and better technique for cutting the stones to make it look even better.

Without De Beer's marketing campaign, you girls wouldn't perceive diamonds as well you do now. There's nothing wrong with a good marketing campaign, but I'm against consumer ignorance. If you always believe marketing, you are always going to be lied to, that's just the plain simple truth.

QUOTE
So now do you see why debeer was successful with diamond? they made a standard and give people confidence in buying diamond, they set regulation, standard and a systematic way to help consumer. Debeer is actually your fren not your enemy.
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They were not successful because they created a standard, they were successful because they managed to create a demand. The standards you speak of, IMO is an illusion. Just like how we have standards/grades for pirated products, you may think its a good thing... but if someone says this is a "grade B" product, when its actually a "grade C". Would you be able to tell the difference? Most likely you won't, you would need to KNOW the difference yourself.

This is where education comes in, whether its diamonds, rubies, sapphire, or any other gemstone. One should know what constitutes a proper product and how to get it verified properly. It exists in all trades, so proper education is no excuse, with or without corporate control.
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post Apr 26 2009, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 01:16 PM)
Erm, that can be said of any family heirloom right? It can be a watch, a normal ring, perhaps even a piece of shark tooth that got stuck in your grandfather when he escaped a shark attack. The value of something you pass on for generations is more sentimental than anything monetary.

Perhaps we're coming from 2 different perspectives. You see the gemstone as an investment, I see it as something symbolic. Sentimental value vs Monetary value. Unless you plan to trade in your diamonds/gem stones I don't believe it makes sense as an investment. Who in their right mind would trade in their wedding ring even if diamond prices suddenly shot up 10x?

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The rich becomes richer when you accumulate wealth, you pass down paintings, antique, jewelleries. A wedding ring from you grandmother is both valuable and sentimental.

If ever unfortunate event happen, you at least can sell the diamond, what are you going to do with your grandfathers shark tooth?


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 01:16 PM)
Without De Beer's marketing campaign, you girls wouldn't perceive diamonds as well you do now. There's nothing wrong with a good marketing campaign, but I'm against consumer ignorance. If you always believe marketing, you are always going to be lied to, that's just the plain simple truth.
They were not successful because they created a standard, they were successful because they managed to create a demand. The standards you speak of, IMO is an illusion. Just like how we have standards/grades for pirated products, you may think its a good thing... but if someone says this is a "grade B" product, when its actually a "grade C". Would you be able to tell the difference? Most likely you won't, you would need to KNOW the difference yourself.

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The standardize of grading is the first thing that sets off confidence in buyers, with the successful marketing campaign it sets off more research and standard for diamond, and what do you mean illusion?

A D color is a D color which is pure transparent with no tinge of colors how can you say this is an illusion? The majority of the people will want the most white diamond a sense of pureness and it look beautiful with good fire and lustre, where else a yellowish tinge diamond will look less lustre and less beautiful because it look dirty like, there is no illusion here.

A big inclusion will be graded as SI2 which is visible with naked eye, a VVS1 is a very very tiny inclusion which is not visible with your naked eye but only able to view with a 10X loupe, this is very straightforward standard and again where is the illusion you claim?

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 01:16 PM)
This is where education comes in, whether its diamonds, rubies, sapphire, or any other gemstone. One should know what constitutes a proper product and how to get it verified properly. It exists in all trades, so proper education is no excuse, with or without corporate control.
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This is where you're so misinform, you can check with any gemologist on planet Earth, there is no standard set for all the other precious gemstones, only Diamond has an international agreeable standard which all gemologist will set.

The Carat, The cutting, The clarity and The Color and minor side standard like polishing and symmetry.

Precious stones like Sapphire and Ruby do not have all these, The highest grade color for Sapphire is corn flower blue, even this simple shade you can find different hue and tinge, The highest grade for Ruby is Pigeon Blood Red and same again this shade has so many hue.

No gemologist can say exactly what shade of blue is your sapphire.
No gemologist can say this shade of color is better than that shade of color.
No gemologist can or dare say this cut is better than that cut.

As mention if you ever wanna buy a precious stone for your wife, a Diamond is your safest bet, leave all the rest to experience gem collector. And this thread is to help as much as I can.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 02:02 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 26 2009, 02:36 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 26 2009, 01:59 PM)
The standardize of grading is the first thing that sets off confidence in buyers, with the successful marketing campaign it sets off more research and standard for diamond, and what do you mean illusion?

A D color is a D color which is pure transparent with no tinge of colors how can you say this is an illusion? The majority of the people will want the most white diamond a sense of pureness and it look beautiful with good fire and lustre, where else a yellowish tinge diamond will look less lustre and less beautiful because it look dirty like, there is no illusion here.

A big inclusion will be graded as SI2 which is visible with naked eye, a VVS1 is a very very tiny inclusion which is not visible with your naked eye but only able to view with a 10X loupe, this is very straightforward standard and again where is the illusion you claim?

The illusion is because the standards don't really matter to most consumers. How many people do you think buy diamonds actually know about all this? Are the standards really that important for the consumer? You said it yourself, it inspires confidence in the buyers but that doesn't change the fact that you're being "conned". The standards benefit the merchants a lot more than it does the consumer, as it allows them to better control prices.

QUOTE
This is where you're so misinform, you can check with any gemologist on planet Earth, there is no standard set for all the other precious gemstones, only Diamond has an international agreeable standard which all gemologist will set.

The Carat, The cutting, The clarity and The Color and minor side standard like polishing and symmetry.

Precious stones like Sapphire and Ruby do not have all these, The highest grade color for Sapphire is corn flower blue, even this simple shade you can find different hue and tinge, The highest grade for Ruby is Pigeon Blood Red and same again this shade has so many hue.

No gemologist can say exactly what shade of blue is your sapphire.
No gemologist can say this shade of color is better than that shade of color.
No gemologist can or dare say this cut is better than that cut.

Is there a standard pricing for art? How does one value an art piece to be a certain or higher than another? There is no real standard is there? Do you see what I mean by the standard being an illusion? Remember you said it yourself earlier, the value is what people think it is, a beautiful gemstone will fetch a good price regardless, and if you are comfortable with the price you got it and sell it at, then all is well no?

QUOTE
The rich becomes richer when you accumulate wealth, you pass down paintings, antique, jewelleries. A wedding ring from you grandmother is both valuable and sentimental.

If ever unfortunate event happen, you at least can sell the diamond, what are you going to do with your grandfathers shark tooth?

As mention if you ever wanna buy a precious stone for your wife, a Diamond is your safest bet, leave all the rest to experience gem collector.

A wedding ring is an investment doesn't make much sense. Your ROI is rather pathetic, the risk factors are high and in times of emergency you might not even sell it at a value close to its current market value! If you want to get a gemstone as an investment, it would make sense to get the stone and keep it somewhere safe with the proper environment, not carried around on a finger.

This is why I say we're coming from different perspectives. I believe the stones on your ring are more symbolic than an investment. If you want to invest your money, there are much better options available.

QUOTE
And this thread is to help as much as I can.
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Despite the "disagreements" I have with you, I am learning quite a lot from this thread smile.gif I think it would be better if you compiled all you know into the 1st post or something. Something like a proper guide of what to look for when buying/selling diamonds. Tips on how not to get conned, where to get the best deals and so-on.
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post Apr 26 2009, 02:57 PM

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LoL.. almost sound like i can make my business here liao..
haha.. anyone need designers??
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post Apr 26 2009, 03:07 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 02:36 PM)
The illusion is because the standards don't really matter to most consumers. How many people do you think buy diamonds actually know about all this? Are the standards really that important for the consumer? You said it yourself, it inspires confidence in the buyers but that doesn't change the fact that you're being "conned". The standards benefit the merchants a lot more than it does the consumer, as it allows them to better control prices.

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You seem to be very skeptical with jewellery shop, if you go to reputable shop like Habib Jewel, Faiq or Jon Ten, they will take their time to educate you before you pick your diamond, you can ask them how to look at diamond certificate and what means what and so on. They would prefer you know what you're buying and create that interest in you.

I dun think so reputable shop will con you, but I cant say for those smaller shop, so pls refrain from having this mindset that all shop selling diamond are conman. I already told you from my pass experience, we hardly make money on diamond because most people who play diamond knows quite a lot, and the diamond that we sell comes with a certificate that scrutinize every millimeters from inside out, leaving no room to play around.

The standard not only benefit the retailer but also strengthens the confidence on the consumer so they do not get con, I think perhaps its best you experience diamond yourself instead of hearing stories from fren in coffee shop and doing armchair research in google which wont give you much actual knowledge, I'm serious about this, if you wanna know more you need to look at the actual stones instead of reading. Reading here will only give you certain guideline but it cannot supplement the sensation of looking and holding a 1 carat beautiful finished stones glittering and flaring its fire as you turn the stones.. the feeling is hypnotic.

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 02:36 PM)
Is there a standard pricing for art? How does one value an art piece to be a certain or higher than another? There is no real standard is there? Do you see what I mean by the standard being an illusion? Remember you said it yourself earlier, the value is what people think it is, a beautiful gemstone will fetch a good price regardless, and if you are comfortable with the price you got it and sell it at, then all is well no?

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I'm no art person so I cant answer you about art.

If you think sapphire and Ruby without the interference of Debeer and with no governing standard of quality and pricing is better than you can of coz invest in that. That was the market where we made money, we do need ppl like you rclxms.gif


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 02:36 PM)

A wedding ring is an investment doesn't make much sense. Your ROI is rather pathetic, the risk factors are high and in times of emergency you might not even sell it at a value close to its current market value! If you want to get a gemstone as an investment, it would make sense to get the stone and keep it somewhere safe with the proper environment, not carried around on a finger.

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A Diamond set proposal ring is very romantic to the 1 billion girls out there, and no you do not wear your 1 cts ring on daily basis, you've a what the world call a wedding band. And yes it is also an investment, like I've mention those whom had bought a 0.50 cts diamond in 1960 for RM400 can today sell that diamond for RM4000, if this is not call investment that perhaps you can give it a better name. But it doesnt change the fact it will be worth much more in future and this has been the track record for diamond over the pass 1,000 years!

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 02:36 PM)
This is why I say we're coming from different perspectives. I believe the stones on your ring are more symbolic than an investment. If you want to invest your money, there are much better options available.
Despite the "disagreements" I have with you, I am learning quite a lot from this thread smile.gif I think it would be better if you compiled all you know into the 1st post or something. Something like a proper guide of what to look for when buying/selling diamonds. Tips on how not to get conned, where to get the best deals and so-on.
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The main reason you buy that Diamond set proposal ring is symbolic, proving your love to your future wife and the bonus is that diamond would be worth much more in the future, so you get symbolic and investment at the same time. Isnt it good? or you still prefer a sharktooth?


silverhawk
post Apr 26 2009, 04:19 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 26 2009, 03:07 PM)
You seem to be very skeptical with jewellery shop, if you go to reputable shop like Habib Jewel, Faiq or Jon Ten, they will take their time to educate you before you pick your diamond, you can ask them how to look at diamond certificate and what means what and so on. They would prefer you know what you're buying and create that interest in you.

I dun think so reputable shop will con you, but I cant say for those smaller shop, so pls refrain from having this mindset that all shop selling diamond are conman. I already told you from my pass experience, we hardly make money on diamond because most people who play diamond knows quite a lot, and the diamond that we sell comes with a certificate that scrutinize every millimeters from inside out, leaving no room to play around.

The standard not only benefit the retailer but also strengthens the confidence on the consumer so they do not get con, I think perhaps its best you experience diamond yourself instead of hearing stories from fren in coffee shop and doing armchair research in google which wont give you much actual knowledge, I'm serious about this, if you wanna know more you need to look at the actual stones instead of reading. Reading here will only give you certain guideline but it cannot supplement the sensation of looking and holding a 1 carat beautiful finished stones glittering and flaring its fire as you turn the stones.. the feeling is hypnotic.

I know how beautiful diamonds can be, I put "conned" in quotes for a reason. I don't actually mean people are intentionally cheating you, but the industry as a whole, is. Don't think of it as a monopoly, think of it as an oligopoly. They benefit from selling it high, standards will allow them to better set pricing ranges. This is common in any business where demand is sufficiently high for product ranges to be made.

QUOTE
I'm no art person so I cant answer you about art.

If you think sapphire and Ruby without the interference of Debeer and with no governing standard of quality and pricing is better than you can of coz invest in that. That was the market where we made money, we do need ppl like you rclxms.gif

Did you miss the point where I said gemstones don't make a good investment? laugh.gif You entirely miss the point I was trying to make on the standards being an illusion.

QUOTE
A Diamond set proposal ring is very romantic to the 1 billion girls out there, and no you do not wear your 1 cts ring on daily basis, you've a what the world call a wedding band. And yes it is also an investment, like I've mention those whom had bought a 0.50 cts diamond in 1960 for RM400 can today sell that diamond for RM4000, if this is not call investment that perhaps you can give it a better name. But it doesnt change the fact it will be worth much more in future and this has been the track record for diamond over the pass 1,000 years!

40 years for an increase of value of 10x? Did you take into consideration the inflation rates? RM400 40 years ago is very different to RM400 now. Did you really make money from this investment? The mathematics to calculate your investments and its returns is not such a simple formula of comparing price then and price now.

QUOTE
The main reason you buy that Diamond set proposal ring is symbolic, proving your love to your future wife and the bonus is that diamond would be worth much more in the future, so you get symbolic and investment at the same time. Isnt it good? or you still prefer a sharktooth?
*

It may be worth much more, but I won't get it for investment sake. Thinking like that IMO is just fooling yourself into justifying the cost. I have my own ideas for a ring, it may or may not include diamonds, but one thing for sure, its going to be incredibly unique and meaningful.
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post Apr 26 2009, 05:09 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 04:19 PM)
I know how beautiful diamonds can be, I put "conned" in quotes for a reason. I don't actually mean people are intentionally cheating you, but the industry as a whole, is. Don't think of it as a monopoly, think of it as an oligopoly. They benefit from selling it high, standards will allow them to better set pricing ranges. This is common in any business where demand is sufficiently high for product ranges to be made.

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If this is what you claim then debeer should start selling silver and the price of silver will surplus that of diamond? I dun think so, this is simply supply and demand issue. Diamond itself have to be really beautiful and plenty of people appreciate its beauty then only the demand comes in. Why do you think Cubic Zirconia never made its way to the proposal ring?

You can say diamond is not worth buying but to the 1 billion people out there infact are craving to get one. It is beautiful, nice to show-off in the sense you feel proud your husband love you so much and so romantic to buy you a diamond ring, well you can also blame this on hollywood.



QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 04:19 PM)
Did you miss the point where I said gemstones don't make a good investment? laugh.gif You entirely miss the point I was trying to make on the standards being an illusion.

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I think you better re-read what I answered you on the standard issue.

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 04:19 PM)
40 years for an increase of value of 10x? Did you take into consideration the inflation rates? RM400 40 years ago is very different to RM400 now. Did you really make money from this investment? The mathematics to calculate your investments and its returns is not such a simple formula of comparing price then and price now.

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I've never said Diamond is the best investment stone, I edi told you sapphire and Ruby is better, its Dickson Poon who say diamond is worthless where he had never seen anybody selling back diamond, which actually is so not true, cant blame a person who knows zero and start commenting.

But Diamond is the logical stone to buy for your proposal ring if you're a novice, dun be a smart alec and get a sapphire with no international standard of grading. And if you think 10X the value after 40 years is still bad then I cant argue with you, perhaps everyone has a different expectation. If thats the case then buying a Rolex or a patek phillip is also a stupid investment according to you tongue.gif

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 04:19 PM)
It may be worth much more, but I won't get it for investment sake. Thinking like that IMO is just fooling yourself into justifying the cost. I have my own ideas for a ring, it may or may not include diamonds, but one thing for sure, its going to be incredibly unique and meaningful.
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Yes you can even put a pc of glass on your wifes ring, I dun think so we'll criticize you, but then stop criticizing on diamond as if the 1 billion people out there are wrong and you;re right.

I told my hubby he is crazy to pay 5k for a CD player, but what do I know about CDP. If he appreciate the quality of the sound, he would think its justifiable and its worth every sen of the 5k which I can get a CD player at jusco for RM200 rclxms.gif

People buy Rolex at 20k, am I supose to tell them they've being con? Rolex made false advertisement so you've to pay extra for a piece of machine that keeps time?

You forgot in this world, status is also important, why do you think starbuck is so successful? RM14 for a glass of coffee?

Do you even know the feeling your wife would feel when she receive that 1 cts stone? how she would be the talk of her office and the envy of all her female relatives? nope...because you feel otherwise.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 05:12 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 26 2009, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 26 2009, 05:09 PM)
If this is what you claim then debeer should start selling silver and the price of silver will surplus that of diamond? I dun think so, this is simply supply and demand issue. Diamond itself have to be really beautiful and plenty of people appreciate its beauty then only the demand comes in. Why do you think Cubic Zirconia never made its way to the proposal ring?

What were people using prior to De Beer's marketing campaign hmm? Think about it smile.gif

QUOTE
You can say diamond is not worth buying but to the 1 billion people out there infact are craving to get one. It is beautiful, nice to show-off in the sense you feel proud your husband love you so much and so romantic to buy you a diamond ring, well you can also blame this on hollywood.

Is your standard of romance just the purchase of a diamond or the amount of thought went into getting something for you?

QUOTE
I think you better re-read what I answered you on the standard issue.

And I think you should understand what I'm saying about the illusion of standards.

QUOTE
I've never said Diamond is the best investment stone, I edi told you sapphire and Ruby is better, its Dickson Poon who say diamond is worthless where he had never seen anybody selling back diamond, which actually is so not true, cant blame a person who knows zero and start commenting.

I'm not saying its better or worse investment stone, just that it doesn't make much sense as an investment. Boleh faham tak? tongue.gif

QUOTE
But Diamond is the logical stone to buy for your proposal ring if you're a novice, dun be a smart alec and get a sapphire with no international standard of grading. And if you think 10X the value after 40 years is still bad then I cant argue with you, perhaps everyone has a different expectation. If thats the case then buying a Rolex or a patek phillip is also a stupid investment according to you tongue.gif

Yeap, poor ROI. As I said, your "10x return" may not really be a 10x return. You have to take inflation into account as well. People who buy rolex aren't really getting it as an "investment" per se, to afford something like that they would have proper investments elsewhere.

If you really believe diamonds to be a good investment, why aren't you stockpiling in diamonds? If you spend 40k on diamonds now, and in 40 years it becomes 10x the value, you'll get back 360k. That would be pretty useful for your children/grandchildren don't you think? smile.gif

QUOTE
Yes you can even put a pc of glass on your wifes ring, I dun think so we'll criticize you, but then stop criticizing on diamond as if the 1 billion people out there are wrong and you;re right.

Diamonds are beautiful, I'm not criticising diamonds in themselves, but how the industry is run together with the public perception of diamonds. Its waaaaay overrated.

QUOTE
I told my hubby he is crazy to pay 5k for a CD player, but what do I know about CDP. If he appreciate the quality of the sound, he would think its justifiable and its worth every sen of the 5k which I can get a CD player at jusco for RM200 rclxms.gif

People buy Rolex at 20k, am I supose to tell them they've being con? Rolex made false advertisement so you've to pay extra for a piece of machine that keeps time?

You forgot in this world, status is also important, why do you think starbuck is so successful? RM14 for a glass of coffee?

See what I mean by the standards being an illusion? People will spend for what they want, as long as they are happy with the price, does it matter? If you got a diamond that looks good to you, would the grade really matter to you? Would you feel bad that this great looking diamond is actually synthetic and actually only cost 300 instead of 3000 (pulling figures out of thin air).

So in the end, the standards don't matter that much to the consumers, its really just to brag/show off.

QUOTE
Do you even know the feeling your wife would feel when she receive that 1 cts stone? how she would be the talk of her office and the envy of all her  female relatives? nope...because you feel otherwise.

Happy, but why? Because everyone has one? Just to show off? Sorry, but I think that is incredibly shallow. This is my contention with the perception of diamonds. The chase of status and ego, completely forgetting the essence of romance.
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post Apr 26 2009, 06:41 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 05:48 PM)
What were people using prior to De Beer's marketing campaign hmm? Think about it smile.gif
Is your standard of romance just the purchase of a diamond or the amount of thought went into getting something for you?
And I think you should understand what I'm saying about the illusion of standards.
I'm not saying its better or worse investment stone, just that it doesn't make much sense as an investment. Boleh faham tak? tongue.gif
Yeap, poor ROI. As I said, your "10x return" may not really be a 10x return. You have to take inflation into account as well. People who buy rolex aren't really getting it as an "investment" per se, to afford something like that they would have proper investments elsewhere.

If you really believe diamonds to be a good investment, why aren't you stockpiling in diamonds? If you spend 40k on diamonds now, and in 40 years it becomes 10x the value, you'll get back 360k. That would be pretty useful for your children/grandchildren don't you think? smile.gif
Diamonds are beautiful, I'm not criticising diamonds in themselves, but how the industry is run together with the public perception of diamonds. Its waaaaay overrated.
See what I mean by the standards being an illusion? People will spend for what they want, as long as they are happy with the price, does it matter? If you got a diamond that looks good to you, would the grade really matter to you? Would you feel bad that this great looking diamond is actually synthetic and actually only cost 300 instead of 3000 (pulling figures out of thin air).

So in the end, the standards don't matter that much to the consumers, its really just to brag/show off.
Happy, but why? Because everyone has one? Just to show off? Sorry, but I think that is incredibly shallow. This is my contention with the perception of diamonds. The chase of status and ego, completely forgetting the essence of romance.
*
ok shall not argue with you further, I've met plenty like you when I was in this industry, if you say its bad then its bad lo icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm here to assist forumer when they wanna buy diamond and they would like to know more about diamond, I'm not here to convince you to buy diamond. Hence the poll.

If you think glass or silver is better then go buy them, you're like a fish lover, going into a dog forum and telling dog owner that keeping fish makes better sense doh.gif

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 07:03 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 26 2009, 10:45 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 26 2009, 06:41 PM)
ok shall not argue with you further, I've met plenty like you when I was in this industry, if you say its bad then its bad lo icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm here to assist forumer when they wanna buy diamond and they would like to know more about diamond, I'm not here to convince you to buy diamond. Hence the poll.

If you think glass or silver is better then go buy them, you're like a fish lover, going into a dog forum and telling dog owner that keeping fish makes better sense doh.gif
*
Education isn't only about the good stuff eh? smile.gif The information you're sharing is good, but I believe people have the right to know about the diamond industry's history as well. That's the only reason I've been arguing with you tongue.gif Otherwise its just like teaching people about sex but skipping the part on STDs laugh.gif

P.S. - Keeping a fish might make more sense than a Dog depending on what you plan to do with the pet tongue.gif

This post has been edited by silverhawk: Apr 26 2009, 10:46 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 26 2009, 10:49 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 26 2009, 10:45 PM)
Education isn't only about the good stuff eh? smile.gif The information you're sharing is good, but I believe people have the right to know about the diamond industry's history as well. That's the only reason I've been arguing with you tongue.gif Otherwise its just like teaching people about sex but skipping the part on STDs laugh.gif

P.S. - Keeping a fish might make more sense than a Dog depending on what you plan to do with the pet tongue.gif
*
The problem is you're only giving your personal opinion, which has no educational capacity. Its like you feel its wrong to buy diamond as an engagement ring because it is over priced and will not hold its value, this is not exactly educational stuff because you do not have prove to back this up.

2nd you're not from this industry and from your argument it shows clearly you know nuts about diamond and yet you wanna pass comment.

You're just trolling here

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 10:51 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 26 2009, 10:57 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 26 2009, 10:49 PM)
The problem is you're only giving your personal opinion, which has no educational capacity. Its like you feel its wrong to buy diamond as an engagement ring because it is over priced and will not hold its value, this is not exactly educational stuff because you do not have prove to back this up.
*

doh.gif Shows that you completely missed my point right?

I feel its wrong to buy diamonds as an engagement ring SOLELY BECAUSE its a diamond. Get it? It has become an expectation, one as you would say, has no foundation in educational capacity.
silverhawk
post Apr 27 2009, 12:49 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 26 2009, 10:49 PM)
The problem is you're only giving your personal opinion, which has no educational capacity.
*

After some thought, I think I'm not going to let this comment slide. You come from a sales background no doubt, so you're used to the idea of selling your product. Perhaps this bias has become sub-conscious to you even though you've left the industry. So I'm going to hit you with several questions regarding the inherent value of diamonds as well its investment value (a point you keep bringing up so it must carry some weight). Since you were in the industry, you should be able to provide me with the necessary answers and data to back up your claims.

From now on when I mention diamonds, I'm talking about diamonds as a gemstone, not the how we use diamonds as abrasives, drill bits etc.

Let start with the value of a diamond. In one of your earlier posts, you compared the value of Diamonds to Gold, somehow trying to assume that Gold and Diamonds are economically valued the same way. How wrong you are. The amount of Gold on this planet is limited, diamonds are not. Gold has utility (think semi-conductors), diamonds are a luxury item. Gold is malleable, diamond is not. Diamonds are forever yea right... take your diamond and break it, and see if you can get even a tenth of the value you paid for it. You can break Gold into a million pieces, melt it, and it would still retain its value. Hence there is an inherent quality in Gold that gives it value, what is the value of diamonds? How do you determine the value of diamonds?

Who releases the information on what diamonds should be priced at? If I recall, that company would be De Beers no? Basically the supplier sets the price for the diamonds, and the supplier has also artificially controlled the supply of the diamonds to create an artificial rarity. So please tell me, how is the price of diamonds not arbitrary? It doesn't really matter whether you have a bunch of standards and certificates to grade diamonds, if the supplier chooses to change the value of diamonds its up to them and the entire market follows. As far as I know, the mechanics on pricing for the diamonds isn't transparent either. Do you see why I said the standards are an illusion? The standards have no real bearing on the actual value of the diamond.

Now lets move on to the value of diamonds as an investment. You mentioned earlier that a diamond bought in the 1960s for $400 would cost $4000 in 2000 and if a person bought a diamond in 1980s, they can expect a 50%-100% increase in value. So lets say if its $400, that would mean between $600-$800 correct? At first glance your point may seem strong, that in 40 years you can get an ROI of 1000%. Yet you didn't take into account inflation, the value of money changes as time goes on.

Using this website: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ which allows us to calculate inflation rates, we can see how much something really costs in different years.

1960 - 2000: $400 becomes $2322
1980 - 2000: $400 becomes $833

So your $400 investment in 1960 is worth $2322 in 2000. When you sell it off at $4000, that would mean you only make a profit of roughly 72%. A FAR CRY from your claim value of 1000%. For 1980 to 2000, your ROI is actually negative, albeit by a small percentage 4%. A mere 72% profit after 40 years? Can you honestly tell me that it is a good investment? laugh.gif To make matters even worse, your diamond can DEGRADE so its value may drop even further since its not the same grade it was when you bought it. So much for diamonds being forever huh? tongue.gif

Now here is a very important question... Are these values appraised, retail or wholesale values?. Appraised values can easily be inflated, and may not reflect actual market prices. If your figure of $4000 is retail, then surely the amount you can sell it for is much lower. Why would a merchant buy from you at higher prices when he can get the stone at wholesale prices? Whatever you sell has to be below the wholesale value for the merchant to make profit right?

Since you've been in the industry, how active is the 2nd hand market? What are the trade ratios between the retail and used market for diamonds? If a seller were to sell their diamonds, where would be the best place to go to, and what kind of resale value can they expect? wholesale price? 10-20% less? 50% less? This is something I'm really interested in knowing, and I'm sure it'll help many people in Malaysia who are looking to sell their diamonds in this bad economy.

So in summary, Diamonds have no inherent value because it lacks in both utility and scarcity, nor does it make a good investment option. So people who buy into diamonds, thinking that they're good because its so expensive, are akin to audiophiles paying $485 for a wooden volume knob. An item bought at such inflated prices, only because of a skewed perception of its actual value.
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post Apr 27 2009, 01:01 AM

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i couldnt agree more to the points that hawk has brought up thumbup.gif
if it wasnt for debeers i think man-made diamonds aka cubic zirconia or lab actual grown diamonds will make it into the market, just like how other natural occuring materials are being substituted with man-made ones
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post Apr 27 2009, 08:52 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 12:49 AM)
After some thought, I think I'm not going to let this comment slide. You come from a sales background no doubt, so you're used to the idea of selling your product. Perhaps this bias has become sub-conscious to you even though you've left the industry. So I'm going to hit you with several questions regarding the inherent value of diamonds as well its investment value (a point you keep bringing up so it must carry some weight). Since you were in the industry, you should be able to provide me with the necessary answers and data to back up your claims.

From now on when I mention diamonds, I'm talking about diamonds as a gemstone, not the how we use diamonds as abrasives, drill bits etc.

Let start with the value of a diamond. In one of your earlier posts, you compared the value of Diamonds to Gold, somehow trying to assume that Gold and Diamonds are economically valued the same way. How wrong you are. The amount of Gold on this planet is limited, diamonds are not. Gold has utility (think semi-conductors), diamonds are a luxury item. Gold is malleable, diamond is not. Diamonds are forever yea right... take your diamond and break it, and see if you can get even a tenth of the value you paid for it. You can break Gold into a million pieces, melt it, and it would still retain its value. Hence there is an inherent quality in Gold that gives it value, what is the value of diamonds? How do you determine the value of diamonds?

Who releases the information on what diamonds should be priced at? If I recall, that company would be De Beers no? Basically the supplier sets the price for the diamonds, and the supplier has also artificially controlled the supply of the diamonds to create an artificial rarity. So please tell me, how is the price of diamonds not arbitrary? It doesn't really matter whether you have a bunch of standards and certificates to grade diamonds, if the supplier chooses to change the value of diamonds its up to them and the entire market follows. As far as I know, the mechanics on pricing for the diamonds isn't transparent either. Do you see why I said the standards are an illusion? The standards have no real bearing on the actual value of the diamond.

Now lets move on to the value of diamonds as an investment. You mentioned earlier that a diamond bought in the 1960s for $400 would cost $4000 in 2000 and if a person bought a diamond in 1980s, they can expect a 50%-100% increase in value. So lets say if its $400, that would mean between $600-$800 correct? At first glance your point may seem strong, that in 40 years you can get an ROI of 1000%. Yet you didn't take into account inflation, the value of money changes as time goes on.

Using this website: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ which allows us to calculate inflation rates, we can see how much something really costs in different years.

1960 - 2000: $400 becomes $2322
1980 - 2000: $400 becomes $833

So your $400 investment in 1960 is worth $2322 in 2000. When you sell it off at $4000, that would mean you only make a profit of roughly 72%. A FAR CRY from your claim value of 1000%. For 1980 to 2000, your ROI is actually negative, albeit by a small percentage 4%. A mere 72% profit after 40 years? Can you honestly tell me that it is a good investment? laugh.gif To make matters even worse, your diamond can DEGRADE so its value may drop even further since its not the same grade it was when you bought it. So much for diamonds being forever huh? tongue.gif

Now here is a very important question... Are these values appraised, retail or wholesale values?. Appraised values can easily be inflated, and may not reflect actual market prices. If your figure of $4000 is retail, then surely the amount you can sell it for is much lower. Why would a merchant buy from you at higher prices when he can get the stone at wholesale prices? Whatever you sell has to be below the wholesale value for the merchant to make profit right?

Since you've been in the industry, how active is the 2nd hand market? What are the trade ratios between the retail and used market for diamonds? If a seller were to sell their diamonds, where would be the best place to go to, and what kind of resale value can they expect? wholesale price? 10-20% less? 50% less? This is something I'm really interested in knowing, and I'm sure it'll help many people in Malaysia who are looking to sell their diamonds in this bad economy.

So in summary, Diamonds have no inherent value because it lacks in both utility and scarcity, nor does it make a good investment option. So people who buy into diamonds, thinking that they're good because its so expensive, are akin to audiophiles paying $485 for a wooden volume knob. An item bought at such inflated prices, only because of a skewed perception of its actual value.
*
Pity your wife tongue.gif
As mention I'm not here to convince you to buy diamonds, if you feel its worthless, you feel you're smarter than the rest of the world than dont buy simply as that. Done.

May I ask, if you think diamond is so worthless than what stone or thing would you wanna set on the proposal ring?

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 08:56 AM
kenji1903
post Apr 27 2009, 10:23 AM

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good debate... as for me, i agree with Hawk on the investment and the inflated/illusional value of the diamond, yes... frankly... it's really not worth the price...

but i also agree with Moorish, i seriously had a great time looking for my wife's engagement ring, going into Tiffany, Cartier, and almost all branded jewelery shops in Klang Valley... i buy it for the sake of my wife's smile and happiness, worth every single sweat and blood smile.gif
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post Apr 27 2009, 10:41 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 27 2009, 08:52 AM)
Pity your wife tongue.gif
As mention I'm not here to convince you to buy diamonds, if you feel its worthless, you feel you're smarter than the rest of the world than dont buy simply as that. Done.

*
See, sales person talk again. I'm not asking you to convince me to buy diamonds, this is a topic for information, and since you've been in the industry, PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION. You had the gall to accuse my points of having no educational basis, I just provided a nice lengthy explanation of how the market works and commodities are valued. Are you still going to say its my opinion? In all likelihood, the value and investment choice of the diamond is your opinion that has no foundation in education.

Why don't you answer the questions? Its not about convincing me to buy or not, that is irrelevant. Its all about information and education. You believe people should know about HOW to buy diamonds, that is not wrong. However, I also believe that people should also know the history of diamonds, how the market works and whether or not the diamond has good re-sale value.

Stop your sales talk and provide us the information that only an insider should know.

QUOTE
May I ask, if you think diamond is so worthless than what stone or thing would you wanna set on the proposal ring?

I do not know yet, I plan to design a custom ring when the time comes, but that depends a lot on my partner as the ring will be designed to fit her. What stones it includes really depends on who my partner is, diamonds may or may not be included.

So are you going to continue on the track of providing information about diamonds in this topic? Or are you just going to run away from my questions because you can't answer them?
kenji1903
post Apr 27 2009, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 10:41 AM)
I do not know yet, I plan to design a custom ring when the time comes, but that depends a lot on my partner as the ring will be designed to fit her. What stones it includes really depends on who my partner is, diamonds may or may not be included.
*
this is the wedding band part... any proposal?
for some reason, girls really fancy proposals... maybe too much Hollywood tongue.gif
i've heard one too many stories of girls telling me their bf/fiance/husband didn't propose to them in a proper (i.e. romantic) way...


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 10:41 AM)
So are you going to continue on the track of providing information about diamonds in this topic? Or are you just going to run away from my questions because you can't answer them?
*
boss... this is just an online forum and there might be some questions that are out of the forummer's knowledge, chill lar smile.gif
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post Apr 27 2009, 11:16 AM

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nice debate between moorish&silverhawk.
as for me, the sparkling of the diamond is enough smile.gif

1. is it abnormal for a man to wear a diamond ring, isn't it?
i'm more into diamond than other gemstone..

2. for rm1k, what kind of diamond can i get, with silver ring as its base (malays say "ikat")?




kenji1903
post Apr 27 2009, 11:37 AM

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QUOTE(farghmee @ Apr 27 2009, 11:16 AM)
nice debate between moorish&silverhawk.
as for me, the sparkling of the diamond is enough smile.gif

1. is it abnormal for a man to wear a diamond ring, isn't it?
i'm more into diamond than other gemstone..

2. for rm1k, what kind of diamond  can i get, with silver ring as its base (malays say "ikat")?
*
i'm wearing a 0.18Ct Love Diamond embedded into 2mm thick, 4.5mm wide white gold ring

There are a lot of promos around, go to as many shops as you can and look at as many diamonds as you can... and most importantly... don't give in to the sales person's sweet talk... i've rejected at least 10 shops before buying that ring...
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post Apr 27 2009, 11:47 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 10:41 AM)
See, sales person talk again. I'm not asking you to convince me to buy diamonds, this is a topic for information, and since you've been in the industry, PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION. You had the gall to accuse my points of having no educational basis, I just provided a nice lengthy explanation of how the market works and commodities are valued. Are you still going to say its my opinion? In all likelihood, the value and investment choice of the diamond is your opinion that has no foundation in education.

Why don't you answer the questions? Its not about convincing me to buy or not, that is irrelevant. Its all about information and education. You believe people should know about HOW to buy diamonds, that is not wrong. However, I also believe that people should also know the history of diamonds, how the market works and whether or not the diamond has good re-sale value.

Stop your sales talk and provide us the information that only an insider should know.
I do not know yet, I plan to design a custom ring when the time comes, but that depends a lot on my partner as the ring will be designed to fit her. What stones it includes really depends on who my partner is, diamonds may or may not be included.

So are you going to continue on the track of providing information about diamonds in this topic? Or are you just going to run away from my questions because you can't answer them?
*
Its not running away, I just came back from RHB queeing for 2 hours to buy wawasan, and I'm not exactly in a good mood.

Ok back to your question, actually you've divert so far off I dun even know where to answer you.

This thread is about buying diamond for proposal ring, and you start saying what? diamond is no good? if its no good then can you tell me what you've in mind to replace it? but you've not made up your mind yet and may even include diamond...so its very confusing, can you make a stand and let me know so I know how to debate further?

Debeer only market how romantic it is, they've never promise you diamond as an INVESTMENT RING instead of a proposal ring. I'm the one who mention you can have both, you can buy a diamond ring for your wife and the ring can pass down to next generation, its symbolic and yet a sound investment because you wont lose money/value.

And in case emergency your son or grandson can sell off the ring.

So in which area you do not agree with me here?

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 10:41 AM)
Stop your sales talk and provide us the information that only an insider should know.

*
Why should I share information with arrogant smartalec like you? you think you know so much then congrat, you wanna know you ask in a proper way, but since you do not believe in buying diamond then no need for me to answer you.

done..


Added on April 27, 2009, 12:15 pm
QUOTE(farghmee @ Apr 27 2009, 11:16 AM)
nice debate between moorish&silverhawk.
as for me, the sparkling of the diamond is enough smile.gif

1. is it abnormal for a man to wear a diamond ring, isn't it?
i'm more into diamond than other gemstone..

2. for rm1k, what kind of diamond  can i get, with silver ring as its base (malays say "ikat")?
*
QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 27 2009, 11:37 AM)
i'm wearing a 0.18Ct Love Diamond embedded into 2mm thick, 4.5mm wide white gold ring

There are a lot of promos around, go to as many shops as you can and look at as many diamonds as you can... and most importantly... don't give in to the sales person's sweet talk... i've rejected at least 10 shops before buying that ring...
*
Remember there is 2 ways to look at diamond, if yu just want to buy diamond without bothering if it holds its value then any diamonds will do, even a RM200 0.05 cts stone is a diamond. Its meaningful.

If you wana buy a diamond and hope its worth something in the future than invest in a bigger stone, I would say at least a 0.50 pointer.

There is no right or wrong but only decision, everyone has their priority.

About guy wearing diamond yes a lot of guys wears diamond, be it stand alone or other precious stone like Sapphire set with smaller diamonds.

The latest trend is guy wearing a single solitaire diamond earrings on 1 ear, they're selling like mad now, infact last week I saw a guy bought a 1 cts stone for earring...cost RM43,000.00 ohmy.gif




This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 12:15 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 27 2009, 01:55 PM

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QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 27 2009, 11:08 AM)
this is the wedding band part... any proposal?
for some reason, girls really fancy proposals... maybe too much Hollywood tongue.gif
i've heard one too many stories of girls telling me their bf/fiance/husband didn't propose to them in a proper (i.e. romantic) way...

Not the time yet la laugh.gif
When the time comes, then only think about it. After all, the proposal has to fit the girl, no point making general ideas right now, you'll be changing them later anyway tongue.gif

QUOTE
boss... this is just an online forum and there might be some questions that are out of the forummer's knowledge, chill lar smile.gif
*
A post about "educating" consumers should be about education. Education should try its best to be impartial, neutral and objective. The information moorish has provided is good, its not wrong, but its only one side of the story. Why can't she talk about the other side? She keeps saying she's been in the industry, and that's good, but why only give one side of the story? She's no longer a sales person, and consumers should be educated the best they can so that they can make the best decision for themselves.

Do you agree to this?

QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 27 2009, 11:47 AM)
Ok back to your question, actually you've divert so far off I dun even know where to answer you.

This thread is about buying diamond for proposal ring, and you start saying what? diamond is no good? if its no good then can you tell me what you've in mind to replace it? but you've not made up your mind yet and may even include diamond...so its very confusing, can you make a stand and let me know so I know how to debate further?

Maam, is your mind so one-tracked and narrow? I'm arguing against the actual value of diamonds, not its perceived value. It doesn't matter to me what the actual value is, as long as I'm willing to pay the price. We're here to educate people no? There is a lot of marketing hype that diamonds are forever (false), diamonds are rare and precious (false) and that diamonds make a good investment (false).

I may not believe in the actual values of diamonds, but if they fit the purpose I need it for, then I would most likely be willing to pay its price. Can you understand the difference between education and personal choice?

QUOTE
Debeer only market how romantic it is, they've never promise you diamond as an INVESTMENT RING instead of a proposal ring. I'm the one who mention you can have both, you can buy a diamond ring for your wife and the ring can pass down to next generation, its symbolic and yet a sound investment because you wont lose money/value.

And in case emergency your son or grandson can sell off the ring.

So in which area you do not agree with me here?

Really? Won't lose money or value? You said in your earlier posts that within 5 years your diamond might lose its value because you've been using it so it might get damaged and thus becomes a lower grade stone. Are you going to back track on this? I also provided you data on how the prices go up according to inflation rates, which from the 1980-2000 data actually showed that the diamond dropped in value by 4%.

Lets make things simple. Explain to use the re-sale value and market for diamonds. Where can you go to sell your diamonds? What values can you expect for it (compared to wholesale value and the value which you bought it at)? How easy is it to sell the diamond? How likely is it that you will get a fair price for your diamond? Basically, provide us the necessary information should we choose to resell our diamonds for money in this horrid economy.

QUOTE
Why should I share information with arrogant smartalec like you? you think you know so much then congrat,  you wanna know you ask in a proper way, but since you do not believe in buying diamond then no need for me to answer you.

See, typical sales talk again. You only educate for people to buy, you don't educate for people to make informed decisions. All your information is biased and skewed towards a sale. Anything information that leads away from it, you deny/ignore. C`mon, you're not a sales person for them any more. Why not share the information objectively and let people decide for themselves?

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post Apr 27 2009, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 01:55 PM)
Not the time yet la laugh.gif
When the time comes, then only think about it. After all, the proposal has to fit the girl, no point making general ideas right now, you'll be changing them later anyway tongue.gif
A post about "educating" consumers should be about education. Education should try its best to be impartial, neutral and objective. The information moorish has provided is good, its not wrong, but its only one side of the story. Why can't she talk about the other side? She keeps saying she's been in the industry, and that's good, but why only give one side of the story? She's no longer a sales person, and consumers should be educated the best they can so that they can make the best decision for themselves.

Do you agree to this?
Maam, is your mind so one-tracked and narrow? I'm arguing against the actual value of diamonds, not its perceived value. It doesn't matter to me what the actual value is, as long as I'm willing to pay the price. We're here to educate people no? There is a lot of marketing hype that diamonds are forever (false), diamonds are rare and precious (false) and that diamonds make a good investment (false).

I may not believe in the actual values of diamonds, but if they fit the purpose I need it for, then I would most likely be willing to pay its price. Can you understand the difference between education and personal choice?
Really? Won't lose money or value? You said in your earlier posts that within 5 years your diamond might lose its value because you've been using it so it might get damaged and thus becomes a lower grade stone. Are you going to back track on this? I also provided you data on how the prices go up according to inflation rates, which from the 1980-2000 data actually showed that the diamond dropped in value by 4%.

Lets make things simple. Explain to use the re-sale value and market for diamonds. Where can you go to sell your diamonds? What values can you expect for it (compared to wholesale value and the value which you bought it at)? How easy is it to sell the diamond? How likely is it that you will get a fair price for your diamond? Basically, provide us the necessary information should we choose to resell our diamonds for money in this horrid economy.
See, typical sales talk again. You only educate for people to buy, you don't educate for people to make informed decisions. All your information is biased and skewed towards a sale. Anything information that leads away from it, you deny/ignore. C`mon, you're not a sales person for them any more. Why not share the information objectively and let people decide for themselves?
*
as mention again and again...you dun buy bulk of diamond and hope to make money from it,this thread is about diamond for proposal ring and you buy 1 proposal diamond ring for your wife only, so the diamond can be passed down to your future generations.

From people I know in real life the oldest diamond I've known and witness a resale was a customer her mom passed her a ring which she have to sell due to financial difficulties, she even have the receipt it was bought somewhere in the early 60s for RM400, we bought the diamond for RM4000 and resold it again at RM6000.

Another customer bought a diamond in the early 60s also, for 1k, my boss kept pestering her to sell at RM11,000 but she is rich and refuse to sell, the diamond can be resell easily at 18,000 retail.

If this is consider bad return to you, then fine, I'm not here to convince you to buy diamond. You can set other thing on her ring.

One thing for sure I'm no God, I cant and I believe nobody can guarantee you anything in future, whats house value will be, what shares will be, what investment will yield what return. But from track record so far reasonable size diamond that has been kept for 40 years do not lose money.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 02:18 PM
^Hobbes^
post Apr 27 2009, 02:19 PM

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I've got a question regarding the investment thing specifically appreciation of diamonds

Would this hurt diamond's resale value or appreciation since it can be cultured without any flaws?
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/SavingandDebt/P97816.asp
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post Apr 27 2009, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(^Hobbes^ @ Apr 27 2009, 02:19 PM)
I've got a question regarding the investment thing specifically appreciation of diamonds

Would this hurt diamond's resale value or appreciation since it can be cultured without any flaws?
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/SavingandDebt/P97816.asp
*
Actually no, because man made diamond can be detected when GIA issue the cert and they're obligated to state there it is a man made diamond. Human value natural thing, synthetic will somehow give a not genuine perception, it is like wearing fake.

Even cultured pearl and natural wild pearl price varies a lot.

But of cos for the tighter budget synthetic is always a better choice, but will synthetic hold its value in years to come will remain a question.

It is somehow unromantic to give a synthetic diamond to your wife.
wlcling
post Apr 27 2009, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 27 2009, 10:23 AM)
good debate... as for me, i agree with Hawk on the investment and the inflated/illusional value of the diamond, yes... frankly... it's really not worth the price...

but i also agree with Moorish, i seriously had a great time looking for my wife's engagement ring, going into Tiffany, Cartier, and almost all branded jewelery shops in Klang Valley... i buy it for the sake of my wife's smile and happiness, worth every single sweat and blood smile.gif
*
thumbs up. thumbup.gif

Even though some of us may realize how much diamonds are over-rated, thanks to De Beers, the rest of the world world has been tuned to believe that "diamonds are forever",- a symbol to i guess show undying and everlasting love. After all, how many of us would want to buy a second-hand engagement diamond for your significant other? Surely, not me.

But kudos to Moorish for helping people out on choosing stones... it's a beautiful affair, this one is. smile.gif

There's really so many tips and advise on choosing a stone, but here are some tips from my personal experience to get the best out of your budget. Hope i have condensed it enough:-

a) Cut is the most important of the 4 Cs. While you can tone down on the other C's, choose only the best cut (excellent graded). Each storefront will tell you they have the best cut, the most fiery and scintillating, etc. Some will have 58 facets, some will have 108 facets and say it's better, some will have hearts and arrows symmetry, some will have 'roses' symmetry, but really let your eyes make the decision if unsure.

b) Color - I'd go for colors between G to J. Personally if the stone has a little of blue Fluorescence, i'd welcome it since it negates the yellow color. Heck, the stone is even cheaper if it has a little fluorescence.

c) Clarity - I'd go for somewhere around VS1 to VS2. If you want a bigger stone with the same budget, you can try clarity SI1 as you still may not be able to spot any inclusions with the naked eye.

d) Carat - this one... you have to see the size of her girlfriend's stones... biggrin.gif

e) Lastly, as all this 4Cs (and thus the price) depends on the grading lab's certificate. I recommend AGS or GIA labs so that you ensure what you pay is what you get.

e) Last tip, if you have time to do your homework, then buy online. Retail shops prices are highly inflated. Buying online saves you money (maybe 20% cheaper). Not only is it cheaper, the variety of stones are better, and the amount of information given is much better too. If you look at my avatar, that's the ideal-scope image of a diamond which is used to measure light return. Available in retail shops? unlikely... all they provide is probably only the diamond cut proportions found on the cert. Yeah, just good enough to run through a HCA calculator assuming a round tolkowsky cut doh.gif

Lastly, the hardest part should be the proposal, and not choosing the stone, so you need not go down the geeky part like i did! Remember that! (Although my wifey appreciates the amount of effort i put into my search for the stone).

Hope this helps!

Bishop
post Apr 27 2009, 04:15 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 12:49 AM)
From now on when I mention diamonds, I'm talking about diamonds as a gemstone, not the how we use diamonds as abrasives, drill bits etc.

Let start with the value of a diamond. In one of your earlier posts, you compared the value of Diamonds to Gold, somehow trying to assume that Gold and Diamonds are economically valued the same way. How wrong you are. The amount of Gold on this planet is limited, diamonds are not. Gold has utility (think semi-conductors), diamonds are a luxury item. Gold is malleable, diamond is not. Diamonds are forever yea right... take your diamond and break it, and see if you can get even a tenth of the value you paid for it. You can break Gold into a million pieces, melt it, and it would still retain its value. Hence there is an inherent quality in Gold that gives it value, what is the value of diamonds? How do you determine the value of diamonds?
So in summary, Diamonds have no inherent value because it lacks in both utility and scarcity, nor does it make a good investment option. So people who buy into diamonds, thinking that they're good because its so expensive, are akin to audiophiles paying $485 for a wooden volume knob. An item bought at such inflated prices, only because of a skewed perception of its actual value.
*
Your arguement is a little skewed. You talk about diamonds as a gemstone and yet you talk about gold as an industrial product(note semi conductors). Like you said "diamonds are used as abrasives, drill bits etc." So they do have some form of utility. As your statement in the scarcity of diamond that it is not limited as compared to gold, i assure you that you are quite wrong. Natural diamonds are very scarce. If they werent then they would not have much value. There are techonology on making lab diamonds but then it is like comparing natural pearls to cultured pearls.

How do you determine the value of diamonds? Well if you have bought any that have real value, you will know that good diamond come with a Cert and Serial no on the quality of the diamonds. Certs are issued by GIA or some other certified institution. Then you compare it to the current market rate. Who detemines these rates? The simple idea of Supply and Demand. Just like everything else in this world. Think of crude oil. The prices were more than US150 per barrel and then dropped to less than US40 per barrel in less than 6 months. Have we suddenly stopped using oil? NO. Just some bunch of rich ppl playing the markets. So it is a very moot discussion of you talk of the price. Value is a different matter all together.

As both of your arguements on value. Value is a perception. Not something tangible. Something valueble to you might not be for me. Like the example of CD players and Rolex watches. Expensive watches are not valued so much by the material it is made but the technology and level of craftsmenship(most expensive watches are hand made ie. Patek, Panerai, Franck Muller, etc.) This is of value to somone who collects watches but not to the average Joe.

The purchase of diamonds are not value by the object in itself, but the idea or perception of its value. Its value could be in the happiness it brings to your loved one, or the sense of achievement in purchasing one, or just to show off that you have a bigger rock than the other person. The arguement on its monetary value and investment value is moot. Very rarely ppl invest in diamonds. If you want to invest in jewellery then watches would be your best bet(higher demand in the collectors circle)

I think this thread has taken a very personal turn and has stopped being a discussion. rclxub.gif


Added on April 27, 2009, 4:30 pm
QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 04:06 PM)
thumbs up.  thumbup.gif

Even though some of us may realize how much diamonds are over-rated, thanks to De Beers, the rest of the world world has been tuned to believe that "diamonds are forever",- a symbol to i guess show undying and everlasting love. After all, how many of us would want to buy a second-hand engagement diamond for your significant other? Surely, not me.

But kudos to Moorish for helping people out on choosing stones... it's a beautiful affair, this one is.  smile.gif

There's really so many tips and advise on choosing a stone, but here are some tips from my personal experience to get the best out of your budget. Hope i have condensed it enough:-

a) Cut is the most important of the 4 Cs. While you can tone down on the other C's, choose only the best cut (excellent graded). Each storefront will tell you they have the best cut, the most fiery and scintillating, etc. Some will have 58 facets, some will have 108 facets and say it's better, some will have hearts and arrows symmetry, some will have 'roses' symmetry, but really let your eyes make the decision if unsure.

b) Color - I'd go for colors between G to J. Personally if the stone has a little of blue Fluorescence, i'd welcome it since it negates the yellow color. Heck, the stone is even cheaper if it has a little fluorescence.

c) Clarity - I'd go for somewhere around VS1 to VS2. If you want a bigger stone with the same budget, you can try clarity SI1 as you still may not be able to spot any inclusions with the naked eye.

d) Carat - this one... you have to see the size of her girlfriend's stones... biggrin.gif

e) Lastly, as all this 4Cs (and thus the price) depends on the grading lab's certificate. I recommend AGS or GIA labs so that you ensure what you pay is what you get.

e) Last tip, if you have time to do your homework, then buy online. Retail shops prices are highly inflated. Buying online saves you money (maybe 20% cheaper). Not only is it cheaper, the variety of stones are better, and the amount of information given is much better too. If you look at my avatar, that's the ideal-scope image of a diamond which is used to measure light return. Available in retail shops? unlikely... all they provide is probably only the diamond cut proportions found on the cert. Yeah, just good enough to run through a HCA calculator assuming a round tolkowsky cut  doh.gif

Lastly, the hardest part should be the proposal, and not choosing the stone, so you need not go down the geeky part like i did! Remember that! (Although my wifey appreciates the amount of effort i put into my search for the stone).

Hope this helps!
*
I have to disagree on this. The most important 'C' is Carat. If your stone is too small, then the other Cs wont matter whistling.gif . Any thing less than 0.5 Carat would be too small to see the difference in the other Cs. You cant tell - the colour, cut only if it is very bad, defenitely cant see the clarity cause nothing/too small to make any significant difference. shocking.gif

Got a nice solitaire of 0.5 Carat, Brilliant cut, Colour E, VVS2, GIA from Carat Club. Cheaper and better quality then the other shops. icon_rolleyes.gif




This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 27 2009, 04:30 PM
wlcling
post Apr 27 2009, 05:05 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 04:15 PM)
I have to disagree on this. The most important 'C' is Carat. If your stone is too small, then the other Cs wont matter  whistling.gif .  Any thing less than 0.5 Carat would be too small to see the difference in the other Cs. You cant tell - the colour, cut only if it is very bad, defenitely cant see the clarity cause nothing/too small to make any significant difference.  shocking.gif

Got a nice solitaire of 0.5 Carat, Brilliant cut, Colour E, VVS2, GIA from Carat Club. Cheaper and better quality then the other shops.  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Are you sure someone won't be able to tell the difference of the other 4C's if it was smaller than 0.5ct, a 0.4ct perhaps? Less likely maybe, but is possible even without a loupe. wink.gif

I agree that when too small, the other C's won't matter as much. But still, i prefer a small sparkling stone than a bigger lifeless stone. The beauty with an excellent cut stone is how it stands out in low-light situations. All stones badly cut or not will still stand out under a jewellery store's dazzling lights. Also, I've seen how an excellent cut stone looks bigger visually compared to badly cut stones even though carat size is of the same. (badly cut stones suffer light leakage)

okok, technicalities aside, must be a lovely stone you got anyway! wink.gif
silverhawk
post Apr 27 2009, 05:11 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 27 2009, 01:59 PM)
as mention again and again...you dun buy bulk of diamond and hope to make money from it,this thread is about diamond for proposal ring and you buy 1 proposal diamond ring for your wife only, so the diamond can be passed down to your future generations.

From people I know in real life the oldest diamond I've known and witness a resale was a customer her mom passed her a ring which she have to sell due to financial difficulties, she even have the receipt it was bought somewhere in the early 60s for RM400, we bought the diamond for RM4000 and resold it again at RM6000.

Another customer bought a diamond in the early 60s also, for 1k, my boss kept pestering her to sell at RM11,000 but she is rich and refuse to sell, the diamond can be resell easily at 18,000 retail.

If this is consider bad return to you, then fine, I'm not here to convince you to buy diamond. You can set other thing on her ring.

One thing for sure I'm no God, I cant and I believe nobody can guarantee you anything in future, whats house value will be, what shares will be, what investment will yield what return. But from track record so far reasonable size diamond that has been kept for 40 years do not lose money.
*

You're still so stuck on it. You mention it as an investment, and as I've proven to you the increase in price more or less follows the cost of inflation. Something you still have yet to acknowledge up till now doh.gif. Makes me wonder if you're actually reading anything I say or just glancing over. Basically saying that diamonds are a good investment is just a sales pitch, if you actually study it, it doesn't make sense at all as an investment. If you're being really truthful about things, why even mention this?

Why haven't you provided any information on the re-sale market for diamonds? I've asked you 3 times I think, still no information?

QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 27 2009, 02:35 PM)
Actually no, because man made diamond can be detected when GIA issue the cert and they're obligated to state there it is a man made diamond. Human value natural thing, synthetic will somehow give a not genuine perception, it is like wearing fake.

Even cultured pearl and natural wild pearl price varies a lot.

When cultured pearls came about, it crashed the pearl market tongue.gif

QUOTE
But of cos for the tighter budget synthetic is always a better choice, but will synthetic hold its value in years to come will remain a question.

If you had a choice to buy a synthetic diamond with a better grade than a natural diamond with the same cost, which would you go for?

QUOTE
It is somehow unromantic to give a synthetic diamond to your wife.
*
This comes to mind... tongue.gif
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Seriously, not everything "natural" is good.

QUOTE
Your arguement is a little skewed. You talk about diamonds as a gemstone and yet you talk about gold as an industrial product(note semi conductors). Like you said "diamonds are used as abrasives, drill bits etc." So they do have some form of utility. As your statement in the scarcity of diamond that it is not limited as compared to gold, i assure you that you are quite wrong. Natural diamonds are very scarce. If they werent then they would not have much value. There are techonology on making lab diamonds but then it is like comparing natural pearls to cultured pearls.

Its not skewed, its perfectly legitimate. Diamonds as a gemstones are not the same as diamonds used for other purposes. Gold is gold in ANY FORM. You can take your gold necklace or something, melt it down and that gold will still retain its value. Can you take your diamond ring, attack it to a drill and use it as a drill bit and allow your gemstone to retain its value? No you can't. That's why its different, and its dishonest for anyone to compare the two, since their markets are way different.

You mentioned that diamonds are scarce, they're not. Your line of logic is that its expensive, so IT MUST BE scarce. Unfortunately, the scarcity is artificial, go read up on the history of diamonds and you'll understand that its actually an abundant resource, one which we can actually synthesize now. So really, where is this scarcity?

You also mentioned supply and demand, guess what De Beers did? They controlled both smile.gif That's why diamond prices are inflated, from a business POV, they're one hell of an amazing company. From a more ethical point of view, they're pretty much b*stards tongue.gif Its not entirely wrong for people to perceive values in a certain way, but don't you think people should learn to better perceive value? A lot of people have a misconception of diamond's origins and history, hence their perception of it. In other words, their perception has been manipulated. If you think this sort of mentality should be encouraged, well I have nothing to say.

This post has been edited by silverhawk: Apr 27 2009, 05:12 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 27 2009, 05:15 PM

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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

thumbup.gif thumbup.gif he can talk what he wants, me no more wasting my energy answering him, just a troll and I wonder why MOD allowing him to blabber with no logic.

anyway he is the first person who made it to my ignore list.

QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 04:15 PM)
I have to disagree on this. The most important 'C' is Carat. If your stone is too small, then the other Cs wont matter  whistling.gif .  Any thing less than 0.5 Carat would be too small to see the difference in the other Cs. You cant tell - the colour, cut only if it is very bad, defenitely cant see the clarity cause nothing/too small to make any significant difference.   shocking.gif

Got a nice solitaire of 0.5 Carat, Brilliant cut, Colour E, VVS2, GIA from Carat Club. Cheaper and better quality then the other shops.  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 05:05 PM)
Are you sure someone won't be able to tell the difference of the other 4C's if it was smaller than 0.5ct, a 0.4ct perhaps? Less likely maybe, but is possible even without a loupe.  wink.gif

I agree that when too small, the other C's won't matter as much. But still, i prefer a small sparkling stone than a bigger lifeless stone. The beauty with an excellent cut stone is how it stands out in low-light situations. All stones badly cut or not will still stand out under a jewellery store's dazzling lights. Also, I've seen how an excellent cut stone looks bigger visually compared to badly cut stones even though carat size is of the same. (badly cut stones suffer light leakage)

okok, technicalities aside, must be a lovely stone you got anyway! wink.gif
*
To me this are subjective la, for some people size is more important the bigger the better, some people prefer a smaller stone but save the money on the quality, so we cannot say who is right or wrong la, individual preference.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 05:43 PM
dafreak
post Apr 27 2009, 05:53 PM

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I dont see how is it unromantic to give your wife a man-made diamond.
they look the same, feel the same, last as long, same chemical composition etc.
can an untrained person even tell the difference?definitely not. Lab grown diamonds can even have the same kind of cut that a natural diamond would. I'm sure if your wife loves you she wouldn't mind as it still sparkles like natural ones.
Bishop
post Apr 27 2009, 06:06 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 05:11 PM)

Why haven't you provided any information on the re-sale market for diamonds? I've asked you 3 times I think, still no information?


*
I highly recommend you not to buy diamonds as a means of investment. Think her arguement was that diamonds do appreciate in value. The purpose of buying diamond is not to resell. there are a decent resale value in diamonds. Many shops have a buy back policy. All they do is reset the stone and it is like brand new. but that is not the purpose of buying the diamond.

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 05:11 PM)
You also mentioned supply and demand, guess what De Beers did? They controlled both smile.gif That's why diamond prices are inflated, from a business POV, they're one hell of an amazing company. From a more ethical point of view, they're pretty much b*stards tongue.gif Its not entirely wrong for people to perceive values in a certain way, but don't you think people should learn to better perceive value? A lot of people have a misconception of diamond's origins and history, hence their perception of it. In other words, their perception has been manipulated. If you think this sort of mentality should be encouraged, well I have nothing to say.
*
Yes they do control the supply hence controlling the demand. Hence controlling the price, NOT the value.

val⋅ue
–noun
1. relative worth, merit, or importance

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/value


Value is a relative perception. Value is the meaning you give to it, not the price. You are getting mixed up about the two. If someone's deceased loved one left a garden rock to that someone. Then that rock would be very valueble to him. I doubt that he would change that for money or a diamond. "relative worth, merit, or importance", not the price. The value is in giving or recieving the diamond... matter of perception.

There is no misconception about it. Diamonds are pretty and nice, I think *I/my GF/mother/bf/etc* would like one, so i buy it. Those buggers at DeBeers say it is bloody expensive, but I have the money to get one so I buy it. There is no misconception about it. Demand and Supply. thumbup.gif


Added on April 27, 2009, 6:13 pm
QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 05:05 PM)
okok, technicalities aside, must be a lovely stone you got anyway! wink.gif
*
Yes it was thumbup.gif . Set on a 3 clawed ring, it opens up the diamond to be viewed from all sides. Make it look bigger than other settings. A little high though...




This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 27 2009, 06:13 PM
wlcling
post Apr 27 2009, 06:17 PM

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QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 27 2009, 05:53 PM)
I dont see how is it unromantic to give your wife a man-made diamond.
they look the same, feel the same, last as long, same chemical composition etc.
can an untrained person even tell the difference?definitely not. Lab grown diamonds can even have the same kind of cut that a natural diamond would. I'm sure if your wife loves you she wouldn't mind as it still sparkles like natural ones.
*
it is not romantic if you wife is expecting a real diamond! haha! Good luck if she finds out.

man-made diamonds are not of the same composition meaning light refraction that apply to diamonds do not apply to synthetic diamonds meaning the same cut for a natural diamond will not apply for a synthetic diamond. flex.gif


Bishop
post Apr 27 2009, 06:26 PM

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QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 27 2009, 05:53 PM)
I dont see how is it unromantic to give your wife a man-made diamond.
they look the same, feel the same, last as long, same chemical composition etc.
can an untrained person even tell the difference?definitely not. Lab grown diamonds can even have the same kind of cut that a natural diamond would. I'm sure if your wife loves you she wouldn't mind as it still sparkles like natural ones.
*
Again value is perception. Not the price. DO NOT buy something that you CANNOT afford.

Yes it is the same to the untrained eye. Just like cultured pearls. In fact cultured pearls usually look better. Again that is not the point of giving something. Why dont you give her a ring in rodium plating instead of white gold or platinium? To the untrained eye it is just white shiny metal. blink.gif

Just a matter of where you put your values... whistling.gif


wlcling
post Apr 27 2009, 06:29 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 06:06 PM)
Yes it was  thumbup.gif . Set on a 3 clawed ring, it opens up the diamond to be viewed from all sides. Make it look bigger than other settings. A little high though...
*
then have to be careful... hope the head is made of platinum also.. wouldn't want one of the claws to break off! smile.gif
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 27 2009, 06:44 PM

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Lol Moorish and the other pro-diamond ppl here. Why are you avoiding the issue and silverhawk's questions?

Do you think that if you accuse him of being a troll and vigorously re-affirm your DeBeers sales points people will fall in line to listen to you like sheeple?

Maybe that will work... on people with no brains.
QUOTE
he can talk what he wants, me no more wasting my energy answering him, just a troll and I wonder why MOD allowing him to blabber with no logic.

anyway he is the first person who made it to my ignore list.


My dear, it is YOU who is unacquianted with logic and the process of informed, educational debate.

It is of course easier to ignore Silverhawk than to answer the questions he posed to you. The only thing you know about diamonds is what you have been spoonfed to believe. That, and the fact that by selling diamonds you can get rich.


Added on April 27, 2009, 6:51 pm
QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 06:06 PM)
There is no misconception about it. Diamonds are pretty and nice, I think *I/my GF/mother/bf/etc* would like one, so i buy it. Those buggers at DeBeers say it is bloody expensive, but I have the money to get one so I buy it. There is no misconception about it. Demand and Supply.  thumbup.gif
Diamonds, unlike gold and oil, have no real economic usage, and its price is kept afloat by perceived value alone.

It is this over-inflated perceived value, and it's association with perceived prestige, along with the monopoly on the supply and demand exacted by DeBeers, which has financed dictators and human rights violators such as Mobutu Sese Seko, Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh. The artificially high prices of diamonds has financed civil wars in Angola and the Congo for decades and armed militias who practise the recruitment of child soldiers and drug them up with hard narcotics to serve as cannon fodder.

The next time you buy a diamond, think very, VERY carefully where your money goes. Who does it ultimately profit?

Just like I encourage you to do so when you buy furniture made from rare hardwood timbers.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 27 2009, 07:00 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 27 2009, 07:22 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 27 2009, 06:44 PM)
Lol Moorish and the other pro-diamond ppl here. Why are you avoiding the issue and silverhawk's questions?

Do you think that if you accuse him of being a troll and vigorously re-affirm your DeBeers sales points people will fall in line to listen to you like sheeple?

Maybe that will work... on people with no brains.
My dear, it is YOU who is unacquianted with logic and the process of informed, educational debate.

It is of course easier to ignore Silverhawk than to answer the questions he posed to you. The only thing you know about diamonds is what you have been spoonfed to believe. That, and the fact that by selling diamonds you can get rich.


Added on April 27, 2009, 6:51 pm

Diamonds, unlike gold and oil, have no real economic usage, and its price is kept afloat by perceived value alone.

It is this over-inflated perceived value, and it's association with perceived prestige, along with the monopoly on the supply and demand exacted by DeBeers, which has financed dictators and human rights violators such as Mobutu Sese Seko, Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh. The artificially high prices of diamonds has financed civil wars in Angola and the Congo for decades and armed militias who practise the recruitment of child soldiers and drug them up with hard narcotics to serve as cannon fodder.

The next time you buy a diamond, think very, VERY carefully where your money goes. Who does it ultimately profit?

Just like I encourage you to do so when you buy furniture made from rare hardwood timbers.
*
after one smart alec came another, I'm not here to sell diamond if you;re that blind.

I'm here to help those who want to buy diamond.

If you say diamond is worthless, then to you it is worthless lo, your mom leave you diamond you can give to me rclxms.gif , but the fact remain no matter how you try to convince the world it is worthless but you still cannot go out to the world and buy a 1 carat diamond for RM100 can you? because majority of the people on planet earth thinks otherwise and this is demand and supply. If the market says and willing to pay RM40k for a 1 carat diamond that will be the price and its value.

Some people buy a projector for RM100k
some people pay a CDplayer for RM100k
Some peopel even buy a power cord for RM20k

so long they're buyer that will be the value, nothing you can do....whine all you want to.


, can we buy the koh-i-noor for RM1k? do you think the Queen of england wanna sell for that price?

QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 27 2009, 06:44 PM)

Just like I encourage you to do so when you buy furniture made from rare hardwood timbers.
*
enlighten me about hardwood timber please. I wanna know more.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 07:23 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 27 2009, 08:17 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 06:06 PM)
I highly recommend you not to buy diamonds as a means of investment. Think her arguement was that diamonds do appreciate in value. The purpose of buying diamond is not to resell. there are a decent resale value in diamonds. Many shops have a buy back policy. All they do is reset the stone and it is like brand new. but that is not the purpose of buying the diamond.

Exactly, that is not the purpose of buying the diamond. So why bother mentioning it at all? When sales people say that, its to give you an extra justification for the cost of the product you're going to buy. The perception of an investment increases its perceived value and thus the higher price. This is incredibly dishonest. Am I wrong to educate people on this? Is it wrong for me to point this fact out to people?

What is even more amazing is that so far, moorish has been talking about how well you can resell the stones, but when I ask for information of reselling, THERE IS NOTHING. Why is that? Her narrow mind is only capable of thinking that I'm talking something negative about diamonds, so that must mean I don't like diamonds and will never buy them. Thus I'm totally irrelevant to her. How damn immature. Would you agree that such information is equally important to people looking for diamonds whether to buy them 2nd hand or to sell off their current ones.

QUOTE
Yes they do control the supply hence controlling the demand. Hence controlling the price, NOT the value.

Price and value are linked, you can't separate one from the other. You don't think they controlled the value? They started the "diamonds are forever" marketing campaign and revived a dying industry. Do you know the history of the diamond cartel? Read up on it smile.gif Its very interesting, and if you're in business its a great example why women are always the best target market tongue.gif

QUOTE
There is no misconception about it. Diamonds are pretty and nice, I think *I/my GF/mother/bf/etc* would like one, so i buy it. Those buggers at DeBeers say it is bloody expensive, but I have the money to get one so I buy it. There is no misconception about it. Demand and Supply.  thumbup.gif

Without their incredible marketing campaign, I doubt diamonds would be as prevalent as they are today. Its still a pretty stone, but it would be a lot cheaper. I'm not against the stone itself, just the general misconception of what diamonds really are. If this topic is really about educating people about diamonds, they deserve to know more than just a sales pitch.

QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 06:17 PM)
it is not romantic if you wife is expecting a real diamond! haha! Good luck if she finds out.

I'll be sure to find a partner who isn't so superficial wink.gif

QUOTE
man-made diamonds are not of the same composition meaning light refraction that apply to diamonds do not apply to synthetic diamonds meaning the same cut for a natural diamond will not apply for a synthetic diamond.  flex.gif
*

Not the same composition? blink.gif
What do you think separates a natural diamond from a synthetic one? How do you think the light refracts in a diamond? By the powers of underground gnomes? Take a class in science, there's A LOT you need to learn doh.gif
Bishop
post Apr 27 2009, 08:41 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 27 2009, 06:44 PM)
Diamonds, unlike gold and oil, have no real economic usage, and its price is kept afloat by perceived value alone.

It is this over-inflated perceived value, and it's association with perceived prestige, along with the monopoly on the supply and demand exacted by DeBeers, which has financed dictators and human rights violators such as Mobutu Sese Seko, Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh. The artificially high prices of diamonds has financed civil wars in Angola and the Congo for decades and armed militias who practise the recruitment of child soldiers and drug them up with hard narcotics to serve as cannon fodder.

The next time you buy a diamond, think very, VERY carefully where your money goes. Who does it ultimately profit?

Just like I encourage you to do so when you buy furniture made from rare hardwood timbers.
*
Yes that is true. But why are you comparing diamonds with gold and oil? Why not compare it to art or watches. Then you are comparing apples with apples. I dont think moorish or anyone here have implied that diamonds have any economical usage. It is an ornament. And THAT IS IT. You can resell it if the need arise but other than that it is just a shiny piece of stone.

Yes its price have been severely over inflated, but then there are people paying US57 milion for an eight cm tall limestone sclupture - The Guennol Lioness. What do you call that? THese are prices that so called valuers give to something seemingly useless stone that have no value except percieve value. How about paying US140million for Pollock art? Which i might add has no artistic value except the concept of kinetic art. It takes no artistic talent to create that piece of work. Just"drips" or "splatter" of paint on a canvas. I think this would be a better comparison. Ornament to ornament.

As your arguement on diamonds financing wars, I can assure you oil have push more countries to war than diamonds. Think of how many wars have started because of that? perhaps you should think of that when you pump petrol?

Supply and Demand. Anything of financial value is being played by someone in power- think crude oil, gold, stock markets, etc. Diamonds are no different.



This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 27 2009, 08:50 PM
kenji1903
post Apr 27 2009, 09:19 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 04:15 PM)
Got a nice solitaire of 0.5 Carat, Brilliant cut, Colour E, VVS2, GIA from Carat Club. Cheaper and better quality then the other shops.  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
this i want to know, how much? smile.gif
triple ex?the diamond itself should cost about... i'll take a wild guess... RM7k-ish? smile.gif

Carat club ain't cheap... but they give quality compared to the other shops that i've went to...
silverhawk
post Apr 27 2009, 09:25 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 08:41 PM)
Yes that is true. But why are you comparing diamonds with gold and oil? Why not compare it to art or watches. Then you are comparing apples with apples. I dont think moorish or anyone here have implied that diamonds have any economical usage. It is an ornament. And THAT IS IT. You can resell it if the need arise but other than that it is just a shiny piece of stone.

1. Moorish started the comparison tongue.gif
2. Moorish said it makes a good investment
3. Moorish continues the myth of "diamonds are forever".

As I said, very one sided information. I know its just an ornamental piece of stone, but she's trying to portray it otherwise and anyone who disagrees with her is an idiot because she's been in the industry and knows better than all of us laugh.gif I was really hoping for a proper discussion with some good information coming from her.
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post Apr 27 2009, 09:26 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 06:17 PM)
it is not romantic if you wife is expecting a real diamond! haha! Good luck if she finds out.

man-made diamonds are not of the same composition meaning light refraction that apply to diamonds do not apply to synthetic diamonds meaning the same cut for a natural diamond will not apply for a synthetic diamond.  flex.gif
*
how are man-made diamonds different from natural occuring ones? blink.gif
they are still carbon with the same crystalline structure so the refraction index will be the same thus cuts that are available for natural ones will be available for man-made ones as well
Bishop
post Apr 27 2009, 09:56 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 09:25 PM)
1. Moorish started the comparison tongue.gif
2. Moorish said it makes a good investment
3. Moorish continues the myth of "diamonds are forever".

As I said, very one sided information. I know its just an ornamental piece of stone, but she's trying to portray it otherwise and anyone who disagrees with her is an idiot because she's been in the industry and knows better than all of us laugh.gif I was really hoping for a proper discussion with some good information coming from her.
*
She has a very simplistic and socially accepted view of the matter. That is the industry that she is in and to be a good sales person you need to have faith in your product. So challaging her on it, again is moot.

2. To her as long as the object inflate in price over time hence initial investment have grown. Therefore good. To her defence she said you can sell it should you need cash. Dont think she meant it as an investment. blink.gif

3. Diamonds are forever. Takes carbon to become diamond in many many thousands/million(?) of years to form and it is still the hardest element known to man. So theoritically it is "forever" whistling.gif


Added on April 27, 2009, 10:03 pm
QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 27 2009, 09:19 PM)
this i want to know, how much? smile.gif
triple ex?the diamond itself should cost about... i'll take a wild guess... RM7k-ish? smile.gif

Carat club ain't cheap... but they give quality compared to the other shops that i've went to...
*
Yes triple X. Got it for less than RM10K shocking.gif . It is not their love diamond. If you get their love diamond it cost about 30% more. Just for the branding/engraving and cert.

Went to a few shops, they started quoting at RM11-13K for a half carat. Most of them are just VS and F or G colour. shakehead.gif



This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 27 2009, 10:03 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 27 2009, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 09:56 PM)
She has a very simplistic and socially accepted view of the matter. That is the industry that she is in and to be a good sales person you need to have faith in your product. So challaging her on it, again is moot.

WAS tongue.gif She's not doing it any more it seems?
So even you agree her views on it are rather simplistic laugh.gif

QUOTE
2. To her as long as the object inflate in price over time hence initial investment have grown. Therefore good. To her defence she said you can sell it should you need cash. Dont think she meant it as an investment.  blink.gif

She was talking about how 400 became 4000, or how in 20 years it can become 50-100% more in value. I pointed out she didn't take inflation into consideration, but she seems to be ignoring it and continuing with her 400 - 4000 figures.

QUOTE
3. Diamonds are forever. Takes carbon to become diamond in many many thousands/million(?) of years to form and it is still the hardest element known to man. So theoritically it is "forever"  whistling.gif
*

Hardest doesn't mean much. Hardest just means the diamond is hard to be scratched, but diamonds break easily. In that sense they're rather fragile. Not to mention your diamond loses its value once its damaged, so in that sense, diamonds really aren't forever.
wlcling
post Apr 27 2009, 10:08 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 27 2009, 08:17 PM)
What do you think separates a natural diamond from a synthetic one? How do you think the light refracts in a diamond? By the powers of underground gnomes? Take a class in science, there's A LOT you need to learn doh.gif
*
QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 27 2009, 09:26 PM)
how are man-made diamonds different from natural occuring ones? blink.gif
they are still carbon with the same crystalline structure so the refraction index will be the same thus cuts that are available for natural ones will be available for man-made ones as well
*
sorry my bad, thought you were referring to CZ or mozzies.
Bishop
post Apr 27 2009, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 10:08 PM)
sorry my bad, thought you were referring to CZ or mozzies.
*
They actually are making real diamonds in the lab. Millions of years reduced to 4 days whistling.gif (saw it in Discovery)



wlcling
post Apr 27 2009, 10:18 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 10:15 PM)
They actually are making real diamonds in the lab. Millions of years reduced to 4 days  whistling.gif  (saw it in Discovery)
*
yups... googling it... although i read they have higher traces of nitrogen and thus slightly yellowish... of course it could be an outdated article.
SUSb3rnard7
post Apr 27 2009, 10:21 PM

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TS, ur topic reminds me of a James Bond movie

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SerenityCalling
post Apr 27 2009, 10:27 PM

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ooo. diamonds. smile.gif

my favourite so far, n the one n only is from tiffanys and co.

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LUCIDA.
Vengeance_Mad
post Apr 27 2009, 10:32 PM

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Nice information here.
Pls keep it up Hawkie and Bishop.
I would really like to know more about it.
Thx
wlcling
post Apr 27 2009, 11:36 PM

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diamonds worth investing? yes, if it makes your significant other happy then it is priceless. other than that it is an over-rated, over-priced stone. now can we switch topics please? tongue.gif

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post Apr 28 2009, 02:14 AM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 08:41 PM)
Yes that is true. But why are you comparing diamonds with gold and oil? Why not compare it to art or watches. Then you are comparing apples with apples. I dont think moorish or anyone here have implied that diamonds have any economical usage. It is an ornament. And THAT IS IT. You can resell it if the need arise but other than that it is just a shiny piece of stone.

Yes its price have been severely over inflated, but then there are people paying US57 milion for an eight cm tall limestone sclupture - The Guennol Lioness. What do you call that? THese are prices that so called valuers give to something seemingly useless stone that have no value except percieve value. How about paying US140million for Pollock art? Which i might add has no artistic value except the concept of kinetic art. It takes no artistic talent to create that piece of work. Just"drips" or "splatter" of paint on a canvas. I think this would be a better comparison. Ornament to ornament.

As your arguement on diamonds financing wars, I can assure you oil have push more countries to war than diamonds. Think of how many wars have started because of that? perhaps you should think of that when you pump petrol?

Supply and Demand. Anything of financial value is being played by someone in power- think crude oil, gold, stock markets, etc. Diamonds are no different.
*
I'm comparing diamonds with gold and oil because Moorish made that comparison earlier. When you brought up "supply and demand" I assumed you also believed that diamonds are governed by the same market forces that govern gold prices, oil, or even the stock exchange.

My assertion is that diamonds are NOT the same with gold and oil because diamonds do not have a useful economic life by comparison, and it's prices are not governed by the same markets and legislated means of exchanges that commodities are. You know this.

Diamonds versus watches and art is a better comparison, but for one thing.

Artists and watchmakers are not as horribly exploited as the miners and people in diamond producing African countries, who have to live under dictatorships financed by the diamond industry, and work hazardous duty in mines owned by the diamond cartel, often as slaves, and with slave earnings.

The majority of them do not live and work under conditions of extreme poverty, brutality and social collapse that diamond workers in Africa do.

But I guess that because according to you, oil causes warfare too (care to give examples? We can compare notes. I know a bit of oil history), and "Anything of financial value is being played by someone in power- think crude oil, gold, stock markets, etc.", that makes it okay. shakehead.gif


Added on April 28, 2009, 2:15 am
QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 11:36 PM)
diamonds worth investing? yes, if it makes your significant other happy then it is priceless. other than that it is an over-rated, over-priced stone. now can we switch topics please?  tongue.gif
*
So if your significant other needs to sodomize you vigorously with a spiked strap-on to be happy, then that is priceless too?

Nice investment standards you have there buddy.


Added on April 28, 2009, 2:23 am
QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 27 2009, 09:26 PM)
how are man-made diamonds different from natural occuring ones? blink.gif
they are still carbon with the same crystalline structure so the refraction index will be the same thus cuts that are available for natural ones will be available for man-made ones as well
*
Interesting. Can we get a definitive answer for this too?

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 28 2009, 02:26 AM
kenji1903
post Apr 28 2009, 08:00 AM

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QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 27 2009, 09:26 PM)
how are man-made diamonds different from natural occuring ones? blink.gif
they are still carbon with the same crystalline structure so the refraction index will be the same thus cuts that are available for natural ones will be available for man-made ones as well
*
There are different types of manmade diamonds, the best one I've read so far is Moissanite, can't find is in Malaysia though, really curious to know if what's stated online is really true...

As everything else in this world, there's always a difference between something u get from nature with something that is manmade/cultured/bred...no?


Added on April 28, 2009, 8:09 am
QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 09:56 PM)
Yes triple X. Got it for less than RM10K  shocking.gif . It is not their love diamond. If you get their love diamond it cost about 30% more. Just for the branding/engraving and cert.

Went to a few shops, they started quoting at RM11-13K for a half carat. Most of them are just VS and F or G colour.  shakehead.gif
*
Haha, sorry:p
Lost touch ofdiamond prices

I've compared gia and their love diamond side by side before, that's why I chose the latter, maybe cos my rock was only 0.3cts tongue.gif

Thanks for the price update

This post has been edited by kenji1903: Apr 28 2009, 08:09 AM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 09:13 AM

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QUOTE(dafreak @ Apr 27 2009, 09:26 PM)
how are man-made diamonds different from natural occuring ones? blink.gif
they are still carbon with the same crystalline structure so the refraction index will be the same thus cuts that are available for natural ones will be available for man-made ones as well
*
I believe the inclusion have different particle and yes according to industry expert it looks different under the scope and it carries a yellowish tinge. If it is as good as it claims it would've storm the market edi, what is keeping it off I'm not sure. Reports I read from google always says it is same as diamond but I've yet to see a certificate report of a synthetic diamond that reads D color, so really I'm not sure until I see the real thing.

QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 11:36 PM)
diamonds worth investing? yes, if it makes your significant other happy then it is priceless. other than that it is an over-rated, over-priced stone. now can we switch topics please?  tongue.gif
*
rclxms.gif

QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 02:14 AM)
I'm comparing diamonds with gold and oil because Moorish made that comparison earlier. When you brought up "supply and demand" I assumed you also believed that diamonds are governed by the same market forces that govern gold prices, oil, or even the stock exchange.

*
Someone else brought this up...not me.

QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 28 2009, 08:00 AM)
There are different types of manmade diamonds, the best one I've read so far is Moissanite, can't find is in Malaysia though, really curious to know if what's stated online is really true...

As everything else in this world, there's always a difference between something u get from nature with something that is manmade/cultured/bred...no?


Added on April 28, 2009, 8:09 am
Haha, sorry:p
Lost touch ofdiamond prices

I've compared gia and their love diamond side by side before, that's why I chose the latter, maybe cos my rock was only 0.3cts tongue.gif  

Thanks for the price update
*
We brought in C4 Moissanite in year 2001, but this stone phailed in most market, when you put the stone side by side with real diamond it carries a greenish tinge. It hits a 9.5 on the diamond test meters.


Added on April 28, 2009, 9:46 am
QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 27 2009, 09:56 PM)
She has a very simplistic and socially accepted view of the matter. That is the industry that she is in and to be a good sales person you need to have faith in your product. So challaging her on it, again is moot.

2. To her as long as the object inflate in price over time hence initial investment have grown. Therefore good. To her defence she said you can sell it should you need cash. Dont think she meant it as an investment.  blink.gif

3. Diamonds are forever. Takes carbon to become diamond in many many thousands/million(?) of years to form and it is still the hardest element known to man. So theoritically it is "forever"  whistling.gif

*
To say diamond is an over price thing is true and false, sometimes the price is high when the market pushes it up, sometimes when demand is slow the prices goes down.

You need a huge investment to set up a diamond mine, among all the gemstone mined, diamond has the most sophisticated proper setup. And another factor, a lot of diamond mine are found in hostile places so accessing them is not easy.

If anyone think Debeer is good, it is not that way, Debeer is far sighted and saw that diamond will be widely accepted because it can be cut and polish to such a beautiful stone with nothing else comparable, it is infact a very unique gemstone, what else can you replace diamond with? sapphire? emerald? Ruby? those are difficult to standardize.

If Debeer is that good as some of you claim why didnt they even consider monopolizing other colored stones?

Diamond suits all age group, from teenager to grandmothers, where other colored stones are more suitable for the mature ladies.

Diamond can go along with any dressing of any color, especially wedding gown.

Diamond is pure and colorless so it made sense to promote them as proposal ring, I'm not even sure if debeer is the one who started this.

If you think Debeer inflate diamond prices then why are other uncontrolled gemstones prices still beyond most of our reaches? Look at sapphire and ruby, it is like buying lottery to the novice, its is all out market with no control. And the prices of these stones are climbing steeply this pass 40 years.

And yes they're easily mine with extremely low tech, if you go Thailand, cambodia, vietnam these stones are selling like pasar malam.




This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 09:46 AM
Bishop
post Apr 28 2009, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 02:14 AM)
But I guess that because according to you, oil causes warfare too (care to give examples? We can compare notes. I know a bit of oil history), and "Anything of financial value is being played by someone in power- think crude oil, gold, stock markets, etc.", that makes it okay.  shakehead.gif

Interesting. Can we get a definitive answer for this too?
*
The recent Iraq war was oil motivated. or do you believe the bullshit about freedom and human rights?


"Anything of financial value is being played by someone in power- think crude oil, gold, stock markets, etc.", that makes it okay. shakehead.gif

Note I didnt say it was ok, I just made a neutral statement that is all. That is the way our world works. You can accept it or deny it.


Added on April 28, 2009, 9:55 am
QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 02:14 AM)
QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 27 2009, 11:36 PM)
diamonds worth investing? yes, if it makes your significant other happy then it is priceless. other than that it is an over-rated, over-priced stone. now can we switch topics please?

So if your significant other needs to sodomize you vigorously with a spiked strap-on to be happy, then that is priceless too?

Nice investment standards you have there buddy.

*
Been there done that, it was a priceless experience, although i wouldnt repeat it again anytime soon... whistling.gif

Well my "buddy", you obviously have not made your significant one happy before... icon_idea.gif (heaven on earth rclxm9.gif )


Added on April 28, 2009, 10:02 am
QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 28 2009, 08:00 AM)
There are different types of manmade diamonds, the best one I've read so far is Moissanite, can't find is in Malaysia though, really curious to know if what's stated online is really true...

As everything else in this world, there's always a difference between something u get from nature with something that is manmade/cultured/bred...no?


Added on April 28, 2009, 8:09 am
Haha, sorry:p
Lost touch ofdiamond prices

I've compared gia and their love diamond side by side before, that's why I chose the latter, maybe cos my rock was only 0.3cts tongue.gif 

Thanks for the price update
*
They are actually identical whistling.gif except for the engraving of the love diamond and their buy back policy. If you dont intend to sell it then you can save the money. (my ex staff used to work there)



This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 28 2009, 10:02 AM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 10:08 AM

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QUOTE(SerenityCalling @ Apr 27 2009, 10:27 PM)
ooo. diamonds.  smile.gif

my favourite so far, n the one n only is from tiffanys and co.

Attached Image Attached Image
LUCIDA.
*
Tiffany diamond rings are woman magnet.... rclxms.gif I would love to get one too
Jaroque
post Apr 28 2009, 10:18 AM

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fuhh.... sini macam semua orang benci diamond
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 11:18 AM

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Another favorite
user posted image


rourou
post Apr 28 2009, 11:25 AM

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aiyo i really loooovvvee their celebrations rings... those you can mix and match and wears together wub.gifwub.gif
silverhawk
post Apr 28 2009, 11:34 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 09:13 AM)
Someone else brought this up...not me.

O rly? See below for proof

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


I know she has ignored me, but I would like to let others see for themselves what she's been saying.

QUOTE
To say diamond is an over price thing is true and false, sometimes the price is high when the market pushes it up, sometimes when demand is slow the prices goes down.

The market doesn't push it up, because as much as diamonds are in demand, the supply far outnumbers the demand. In normal economics, this would have driven prices down. However, since the supply is tightly controlled, the illusion of scarcity is there, hence the ability to demand higher prices. When demand is low, prices are dropped to increase demand. They can afford this, because their goods are priced arbitrarily.

QUOTE
You need a huge investment to set up a diamond mine, among all the gemstone mined, diamond has the most sophisticated proper setup. And another factor, a lot of diamond mine are found in hostile places so accessing them is not easy.

The ROI on a diamond mine is high, especially when you "pay" for slave labour tongue.gif

QUOTE
If anyone think Debeer is good, it is not that way, Debeer is far sighted and saw that diamond will be widely accepted because it can be cut and polish to such a beautiful stone with nothing else comparable, it is infact a very unique gemstone, what else can you replace diamond with? sapphire? emerald? Ruby? those are difficult to standardize.

Diamond is pure and colorless so it made sense to promote them as proposal ring, I'm not even sure if debeer is the one who started this.

You're looking at things backwards. Back then, diamonds were doing HORRIBLY. The annual sales of diamonds was a mere $100,000. The stone used to be rare, but when huge deposits were found in places like Africa, they started to get scared that the market will be flooded and diamonds would become a semi-precious stone. You should know that perception of value is everything.

That is why the diamond companies joined together to monopolise the market. They also realised that they had to create a perception of high value and turn the stone into a tradition that will always be used so that the demand will always be high. They did this by the "diamonds are forever" campaign, which tied diamonds to the concept of love. They also gave celebrities diamonds to show off and made everyone want one.

It is incredible marketing, but talking about it objectively, you can see why diamonds aren't really worth that much.

QUOTE
If Debeer is that good as some of you claim why didnt they even consider monopolizing other colored stones?

If you think Debeer inflate diamond prices then why are other uncontrolled gemstones prices still beyond most of our reaches? Look at sapphire and ruby, it is like buying lottery to the novice, its is all out market with no control. And the prices of these stones are climbing steeply this pass 40 years.

To monopolise other stones, they need to conquer those markets and create the same marketing campaign they did with diamonds. Considering that they're already making so much money with diamonds, WHY BOTHER?

QUOTE
And yes they're easily mine with extremely low tech, if you go Thailand, cambodia, vietnam these stones are selling like pasar malam.
*
How do you think people mined for diamonds in India and Africa last time? With high tech machines?

Also, you're contradicting yourself. You just say here its cheap and selling like pasar malam, but just a few sentences ago, you said these gemstones are out of reach for people? what? I know you're ignoring me, but people should know these things. As someone who is supposed to educate people, your bias and hypocrisy tarnishes your credibility.

QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 09:50 AM)
Well my "buddy", you obviously have not made your significant one happy before...  icon_idea.gif  (heaven on earth  rclxm9.gif )
*

Well, perhaps the girls he chooses are not so superficial? laugh.gif

This post has been edited by silverhawk: Apr 28 2009, 11:34 AM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 11:41 AM

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And this is my all time favorite
user posted image

FYI, the sapphire you see is Kashmir Blue, very expensive and this is the ultimate color for sapphires, recently more and more tanzanite is flooding the market with very similar hue, not sure if its enhance in anyway.


Added on April 28, 2009, 11:55 am
QUOTE(Jaroque @ Apr 28 2009, 10:18 AM)
fuhh.... sini macam semua orang benci diamond
*
I think only 2 people benci diamond la (period), but this is good also, after reading all his excuses this makes me cherish my husband so much, instead of complaining he buys me diamond and surprises me, thank God I didnt get a husband when I say I love diamond and he'll come out with statistic and chart and start convincing me diamond is no good la, over price la...what a turn off it would be.



This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 11:55 AM
SerenityCalling
post Apr 28 2009, 01:00 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 10:08 AM)
Tiffany diamond rings are woman magnet....  rclxms.gif I would love to get one too
*
haha., i know right.. is either tiffany or cartier. nod.gif
i tried tht ring b4 on my finger.. thts the ring. thts the one.

price is over 300K
nottyKitty
post Apr 28 2009, 01:57 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 11:41 AM)
thank God I didnt get a husband when I say I love diamond and he'll come out with statistic and chart and start convincing me diamond is no good la, over price la...what a turn off it would be.
*
Right on the point.
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 02:26 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 09:50 AM)
The recent Iraq war was oil motivated. or do you believe the bullshit about freedom and human rights?
"Anything of financial value is being played by someone in power- think crude oil, gold, stock markets, etc.", that makes it okay.  shakehead.gif

Note I didnt say it was ok, I just made a neutral statement that is all. That is the way our world works. You can accept it or deny it.
Yes, the Iraq war was motivated by oil and several other unsaid agendas. Yes, America spat forth a torrent of bullshit about "preserving freedom" and "human rights" (but shut up about the latter when we found out they were committing torture, massacre and punitive rape on men and women).

As you can see the ugly reality does not match the fabricated lie.

Diamonds would be a analogy for this also. It's fabricated lies of being worth the money you pay for it for sentimental reasons of "romance" and "special" finances the cutting off of breasts in Africa

YES, the CUTTING OFF OF BREASTS IN AFRICA, the very same thing that you girls watch on Oprah and then CRY about


and the conscription of entire villages to work as slaves in diamond mines in Myanmar.


QUOTE
Been there done that, it was a priceless experience, although i wouldnt repeat it again anytime soon...  whistling.gif 

Well my "buddy", you obviously have not made your significant one happy before...  icon_idea.gif  (heaven on earth  rclxm9.gif )
You've been sodomised with a spiked strap-on too, for real? sad.gif

I was just being sarcastic when I feted wlcling. I think that some experiences are not worth the price. doh.gif
QUOTE

I think only 2 people benci diamond la (period),


I don't hate diamonds. I hate dirty lies.

QUOTE
but this is good also, after reading all his excuses this makes me cherish my husband so much, instead of complaining he buys me diamond and surprises me, thank God I didnt get a husband when I say I love diamond and he'll come out with statistic and chart and start convincing me diamond is no good la, over price la...what a turn off it would be.


LOL!!!
Your husband really loves you. You should be loyal to him. A man who does not love or appreciate you that much might ask you to grow up or worse, grow a brain, and that would be horrible.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 28 2009, 02:37 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 03:06 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 02:26 PM)
Yes, the Iraq war was motivated by oil and several other unsaid agendas. Yes, America spat forth a torrent of bullshit about "preserving freedom" and "human rights" (but shut up about the latter when we found out they were committing torture, massacre and punitive rape on men and women).

As you can see the ugly reality does not match the fabricated lie.

Diamonds would be a analogy for this also. It's fabricated lies of being worth the money you pay for it for sentimental reasons of "romance" and "special" finances the cutting off of breasts in Africa

YES, the CUTTING OFF OF BREASTS IN AFRICA, the very same thing that you girls watch on Oprah and then CRY about


and the conscription of entire villages to work as slaves in diamond mines in Myanmar.
You've been sodomised with a spiked strap-on too, for real? sad.gif

I was just being sarcastic when I feted wlcling. I think that some experiences are not worth the price.  doh.gif
I don't hate diamonds. I hate dirty lies.
LOL!!!
Your husband really loves you. You should be loyal to him. A man who does not love or appreciate you that much might ask you to grow up or worse, grow a brain, and that would be horrible.
*
yea yea...whine all you want rclxm9.gif I'm wearing my diamonds and loving every bit of it

Pity your wife tho tongue.gif , and since you're such a saint, start walking and dun pump petrol

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 03:11 PM
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 03:35 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 03:06 PM)
yea yea...whine all you want rclxm9.gif  I'm wearing my diamonds and loving every bit of it


Lalala syndrome, anyone?

QUOTE
Pity your wife tho tongue.gif , and since you're such a saint, start walking and dun pump petrol
*
My wife doesn't need diamonds to look pretty and feel loved.

You also have no idea how much walking I do. wink.gif
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 03:42 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 03:35 PM)
Lalala syndrome, anyone?
My wife doesn't need diamonds to look pretty and feel loved.

You also have no idea how much walking I do. wink.gif
*
I think its you who refuse to buy diamonds for her rclxms.gif
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 03:45 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 03:42 PM)
I think its you who refuse to buy diamonds for her rclxms.gif
*
Saved for posterity. This comeback of yours is priceless.

You really don't know what's going on, do you? You must have had some real trouble following the debate and dealing with all the issues, points and nuances raised.

I almost pity you.









Except that BREASTS WERE SLICED OFF IN AFRICA vmad.gif

must... calm down... before....!!! SMASH TABLE IN TWO!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 28 2009, 03:47 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 03:45 PM)
Saved for posterity. This comeback of yours is priceless.

You really don't know what's going on, do you? You must have had some real trouble following the debate and dealing with all the issues, points and nuances raised.

I almost pity you.
Except that BREASTS WERE SLICED OFF IN AFRICA  vmad.gif

must... calm down... before....!!! SMASH TABLE IN TWO!!!!!!
*
Whats next? The palestine and afghans? tongue.gif
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 04:00 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 03:55 PM)
Whats next? The palestine and afghans?  tongue.gif
*
Ok ok, no need to force the point. You and Bishop do not care.

See, that's very easy to say isn't it?

Just say that you do not care that breasts were cut off in Africa. You just want to preserve your feelings of "pretty", "special" and "romance".

No need to go the round about way and bring up oil, Iraq or Palestine.

Come on. Just say it, the both of you. Trust me, it's liberating.
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 04:02 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 04:00 PM)
Ok ok, no need to force the point. You and Bishop do not care.

See, that's very easy to say isn't it?

Just say that you do not care that breasts were cut off in Africa. You just want to preserve your feelings of "pretty", "special" and "romance".

No need to go the round about way and bring up oil, Iraq or Palestine.

Come on. Just say it, the both of you. Trust me, it's liberating.
*
as mention earlier...

do you pump petrol?
do you use anything made from petrol chemical?




SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 04:05 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 04:02 PM)
as mention earlier...

do you pump petrol?
do you use anything made from petrol chemical?
*
So, you are saying that I am hypocrite because I use petrol?

That's what you and Bishop are trying to say, aren't you?

You're both truly geniuses.


Added on April 28, 2009, 4:10 pm^ I'm waiting to see how Moorish and Bishop answers this.

Go ahead, guys. Dig a deeper hole for yourselves.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 28 2009, 04:10 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 04:20 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 04:05 PM)
So, you are saying that I am hypocrite because I use petrol?

That's what you and Bishop are trying to say, aren't you?

You're both truly geniuses.


Added on April 28, 2009, 4:10 pm^ I'm waiting to see how Moorish and Bishop answers this.

Go ahead, guys. Dig a deeper hole for yourselves.
*
I dun need to answer anything as I'm not trying to convince you...I think it is you whining in here and hoping to convince us.

We come from 2 different world, if you dun like diamond then GTFO from here.

To me diamond is god sent
To you diamond is a sin...
Go create your own thread and preach there instead of making trouble in here, this is about helping people to choose diamond.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 04:24 PM
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 04:23 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 04:20 PM)
I dun need to answer anything as I'm not trying to convince you...I think it is you whining in here and hoping to convince us.

We come from 2 different world, if you dun like diamond then GTFO from here.
*
Oh but I thought this thread was to EDUCATE people about diamonds.

I didn't know that this thread was only for people who like diamonds.

You see? This is the root of all our misunderstanding here.








shakehead.gif

wlcling
post Apr 28 2009, 04:31 PM

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sad to say, this topic is no longer Cupid corner material. Sorry that some people deviate from that.

Moorish, its a losing war. This thread surely wasn't created to delve into diamonds as an investment yah? Let's concentrate on helping the lost souls find their perfect stone for whatever reason they choose to.

Peace out everyone!
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 04:31 PM)
sad to say, this topic is no longer Cupid corner material. Sorry that some people deviate from that.

Moorish, its a losing war. This thread surely wasn't created to delve into diamonds as an investment yah? Let's concentrate on helping the lost souls find their perfect stone for whatever reason they choose to.

Peace out everyone!
*
You sure about that? Isn't that what Moorish said? That diamonds are a good investment?

Want me to find the post where she said that?
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 04:31 PM)
sad to say, this topic is no longer Cupid corner material. Sorry that some people deviate from that.

Moorish, its a losing war. This thread surely wasn't created to delve into diamonds as an investment yah? Let's concentrate on helping the lost souls find their perfect stone for whatever reason they choose to.

Peace out everyone!
*
Well I did complaint to MOD but nothing seem to be done, instead of a thread to help, we have some trouble maker who comes here with no other intention but create trouble.


Added on April 28, 2009, 4:38 pm
QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 04:33 PM)
You sure about that? Isn't that what Moorish said? That diamonds are a good investment?

Want me to find the post where she said that?
*
You goon...

You buy a diamond ring for your wife, 40 years later when you pass it down to your children, in any emergency they can sell the diamond off for 10X the value bought.

It is a symbolic and good investment AS A 1 OFF PROPOSAL RING, not as if you're going to buy 30 proposal diamond ring.

But your arguement as always been how sinful diamond is with your african stories, which for your info diamond comes from all over the world not just from africa. BTW as I understand diamond is only part of the income they've plenty of other income like OIL!!!!!!

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 04:38 PM
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 04:33 PM)
Well I did complaint to MOD but nothing seem to be done, instead of a thread to help, we have some trouble maker who comes here with no other intention but create trouble.
*
Hmm, you can't refute or answer the questions and points raised - such as the ones that Silverhawk VERY CIVILLY asked - so you resort to labelling the dissenting point of view as trolls and "troublemakers".

Moorish you are indeed a sophisticated woman, every bit as deserving of the diamonds you proudly wear.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 28 2009, 04:39 PM
wlcling
post Apr 28 2009, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 04:33 PM)
You sure about that? Isn't that what Moorish said? That diamonds are a good investment?

Want me to find the post where she said that?
*
it's ok, i saw that wink.gif


QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 04:33 PM)
Well I did complaint to MOD but nothing seem to be done, instead of a thread to help, we have some trouble maker who comes here with no other intention but create trouble.
*
well, after all, i did have a 'debate' with you once on another thread last time also arguing about diamonds being a bad investment (if thinking that buying, holding, and selling was a good idea)

nothing personal, we are all just sharing our thoughts here. We do like intellectual m*sturb*ti*n sometimes. icon_rolleyes.gif
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post Apr 28 2009, 04:46 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 04:41 PM)
it's ok, i saw that  wink.gif
well, after all, i did have a 'debate' with you once on another thread last time also arguing about diamonds being a bad investment (if thinking that buying, holding, and selling was a good idea)

nothing personal, we are all just sharing our thoughts here. We do like intellectual m*sturb*ti*n sometimes.  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
What other thread "last time" are you talking about? No, seriously. Is this some case of mistaken identity here? shakehead.gif


You sir, do not sound like an investor.

All view points in discussions of the matter must sound the same to you, so your wilful ignorance is understandable.
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 04:50 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 04:41 PM)
it's ok, i saw that  wink.gif
well, after all, i did have a 'debate' with you once on another thread last time also arguing about diamonds being a bad investment (if thinking that buying, holding, and selling was a good idea)

nothing personal, we are all just sharing our thoughts here. We do like intellectual m*sturb*ti*n sometimes.  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Then again as I've mention in page one, but someone (not refering to you) too blind to read.
Big diamond is indeed a good investment, esp those above 100k, thats why you see all the rich and famous going to auction house buying big diamonds. The value appreciates very fast.

Just that you dun hope anything when you buy 2 - 3k diamond


wlcling
post Apr 28 2009, 05:00 PM

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anyway, some info on wikipedia on diamonds as an investment. Just a read for people interested...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamonds_as_an_investment

Also an interesting point taken from Wiki for those buying diamonds:-
There are considerable price shifts near the edges of the size bands, so a 0.49 carats (98 mg) stone may list at $5,500 per carat = $2,695, while a 0.50 carats (100 mg) stone of similar quality lists at $7,500 per carat = $3,750.

These are called the magic numbers when choosing carat size. While cost may be exponential to the carat size, there is a big price jump at certain magic numbers. They are:- 0.3ct, 0.5ct, 0.7ct, and 1ct, 2ct, and so on. Getting a 0.49ct diamond compared to a 0.5ct diamond will be cheaper, although the size different is probably ignorable. Unfortunately these nicely sized stones are quite hard to come by, as most cutters prefer to sacrifice some cut quality in order to have the diamond weighing at these magic numbers.

Yes, diamond hunting can be tiring but rewarding... biggrin.gif
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 28 2009, 05:04 PM

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Oh my screaming monkey god!! That whole wikipedia article is so full of un-referenced points.

Where are its sources???
wlcling
post Apr 28 2009, 05:06 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 04:46 PM)
What other thread "last time" are you talking about? No, seriously. Is this some case of mistaken identity here? shakehead.gif
You sir, do not sound like an investor.

All view points in discussions of the matter must sound the same to you, so your wilful ignorance is understandable.
*
yes, probably a case of mistaken identity.

i was talking to moorish.
silverhawk
post Apr 28 2009, 05:11 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 04:33 PM)
Well I did complaint to MOD but nothing seem to be done, instead of a thread to help, we have some trouble maker who comes here with no other intention but create trouble.

Perhaps because the points I raised were really good and deserving of an answer. I know la kena ignore adi, but I hope other people would ask the same questions so she can answer.

Ignore the topics about it being an investment or the value of diamonds. Someone please ask her about the resale market available for diamonds. People need to know how to properly sell their diamonds should they want to.

QUOTE
You buy a diamond ring for your wife, 40 years later when you pass it down to your children, in any emergency they can sell the diamond off for 10X the value bought.

What an idiot. I've proven to her time and time again that her "10x more value" calculation is totally wrong and yet she still holds on to it. Typical sales person doh.gif Inflation my dear, INFLATION.

QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 04:50 PM)
Then again as I've mention in page one, but someone (not refering to you) too blind to read.
Big diamond is indeed a good investment, esp those above 100k, thats why you see all the rich and famous going to auction house buying big diamonds. The value appreciates very fast.

Just that you dun hope anything when you buy 2 - 3k diamond
*
As if your topic is going to be able to help anyone who's going to buy such diamonds doh.gif
Lets be realistic here shall we?
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 05:28 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 05:00 PM)
anyway, some info on wikipedia on diamonds as an investment. Just a read for people interested...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamonds_as_an_investment

Also an interesting point taken from Wiki for those buying diamonds:-
There are considerable price shifts near the edges of the size bands, so a 0.49 carats (98 mg) stone may list at $5,500 per carat = $2,695, while a 0.50 carats (100 mg) stone of similar quality lists at $7,500 per carat = $3,750.

These are called the magic numbers when choosing carat size. While cost may be exponential to the carat size, there is a big price jump at certain magic numbers. They are:- 0.3ct, 0.5ct, 0.7ct, and 1ct, 2ct, and so on. Getting a 0.49ct diamond compared to a 0.5ct diamond will be cheaper, although the size different is probably ignorable. Unfortunately these nicely sized stones are quite hard to come by, as most cutters prefer to sacrifice some cut quality in order to have the diamond weighing at these magic numbers.

Yes, diamond hunting can be tiring but rewarding...  biggrin.gif
*
Yes fully agree, this is how the pricing works, coz people would rather answer I've a 1 carat stone instead of I've a 0.99cts on my finger, but then they can always lie tongue.gif but thats besides the point.


Added on April 28, 2009, 5:31 pm
QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 05:28 PM)
Yes fully agree, this is how the pricing works, coz people would rather answer I've a 1 carat stone instead of I've a 0.99cts on my finger, but then they can always lie tongue.gif  but thats besides the point.
*
But for earrings its good to get 0.49, you really saves a lot.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 05:31 PM
Bishop
post Apr 28 2009, 05:35 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 04:00 PM)
Ok ok, no need to force the point. You and Bishop do not care.

See, that's very easy to say isn't it?

Just say that you do not care that breasts were cut off in Africa. You just want to preserve your feelings of "pretty", "special" and "romance".

No need to go the round about way and bring up oil, Iraq or Palestine.

Come on. Just say it, the both of you. Trust me, it's liberating.
*
My dear "buddy", at which point did I say that I didnt care? vmad.gif
Then again I never said that I do. rolleyes.gif

I merely highlighted the point that there are many other unscruplous business and trades out there. Not just the diamond trade which you take so personally. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it is a sad predicament of what is happening in the diamond trade. But that is not the only trade that has cause war and abused human rights. What about all the sweat shops in indochina? You going to stop wearing clothes?

You are just making a very personal view on the matter. Think about it. You talk about De Beers financing the slave trade in Africa. Well they merely pay for services provided.

-They want diamonds.
-Some ppl can get it for them.
-They pay.

In what circumstances these ppl choose to produce that diamond, I dont think that the ppl at De Beers really care. They just want the diamonds. Simply supply and demand. So if you think about it, De Beers only want the diamonds. It is the ppl in Africa that CHOOSES to kill/rape/enslave their OWN ppl for money.

So my dear "buddy", who is at wrong here? De Beers for willing to pay a lot of money for something seemingly worthless? or the warlords in Africa killing and enslaving their OWN ppl to get money? So who is actually really cutting off the breast of Africa?

So you are the ppl who feel the need to impose their views on to other ppl. Take a neutral view and see who is really doing all the butchering?



TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 05:44 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 05:35 PM)
My dear "buddy", at which point did I say that I didnt care? vmad.gif
Then again I never said that I do.  rolleyes.gif

I merely highlighted the point that there are many other unscruplous business and trades out there. Not just the diamond trade which you take so personally. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it is a sad predicament of what is happening in the diamond trade. But that is not the only trade that has cause war and abused human rights. What about all the sweat shops in indochina? You going to stop wearing clothes?

You are just making a very personal view on the matter. Think about it. You talk about De Beers financing the slave trade in Africa. Well they merely pay for services provided.

-They want diamonds.
-Some ppl can get it for them.
-They pay.

In what circumstances these ppl choose to produce that diamond, I dont think that the ppl at De Beers really care. They just want the diamonds. Simply supply and demand. So if you think about it, De Beers only want the diamonds. It is the ppl in Africa that CHOOSES to kill/rape/enslave their OWN ppl for money.

So my dear "buddy", who is at wrong here? De Beers for willing to pay a lot of money for something seemingly worthless? or the warlords in Africa killing and enslaving their OWN ppl to get money? So who is actually really cutting off the breast of Africa?

So you are the ppl who feel the need to impose their views on to other ppl. Take a neutral view and see who is really doing all the butchering?
*
Another thing, diamond doesnt only come from africa they're also major supplies in canada, australia, russia and I think india too. But conflict diamond comprises of a very small percentage only. Which is it we will never know.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 05:44 PM
Bishop
post Apr 28 2009, 06:00 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 28 2009, 05:11 PM)
What an idiot. I've proven to her time and time again that her "10x more value" calculation is totally wrong and yet she still holds on to it. Typical sales person doh.gif Inflation my dear, INFLATION.


*
Silverhawk, there is no point continuing to flame moorish. She has a very simplistic view of investment. She is not a sophiscated investor. She like many out there views investment as something that apprciate in price through time. Just like how everyone thinks that buying a house is investment without taking into account the cost of interest, maintainence, inflation, taxes, etc (YES, many of you out there buying houses as an investment is actually buying a liability brows.gif )

So to her something that she bought a long time ago, now cost more means she make money, means good. Hence her views on diamonds as a good investment. It is just a matter of preference. Some ppl buy art as an investment, others collect comics/coins/stamps as investment.

No point you trying to force your views down her throat. The fact remains that diamond do appreciate in price(regardless of who is controlling/playing the market) makes it an investment. Not a good one. Nor a very profitable one, but a form of investment nonetheless.



This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 28 2009, 06:08 PM
wlcling
post Apr 28 2009, 06:11 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 06:00 PM)
Silverhawk, there is no point continuing to flame moorish. She has a very simplistic view of investment. She is not a sophiscated investor. She like many out there views investment as something that apprciate in price through time. Just like how everyone thinks that buying a house is investment without taking into account the cost of interest, maintainence, inflation, taxes, etc (YES, many of you out there buying houses as an investment is actually buying a liability brows.gif )

So to her something that she bought a long time ago, now cost more means she make money, means good. Hence her views on diamonds as a good investment. It is just a matter of preference. Some ppl buy art as an investment, others collect comics/coins/stamps as investment.

No point you trying to force your views down her throat. The fact remains that diamond do appreciate in price(regardless of who is controlling/playing the market) makes it an investment. Not a good one. Nor a very profitable one, but a form of investment nonetheless.
*
oh no, but i need to buy a house to live in! Paying rent money just don't cut it! biggrin.gif
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 06:17 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 06:00 PM)
Silverhawk, there is no point continuing to flame moorish. She has a very simplistic view of investment. She is not a sophiscated investor. She like many out there views investment as something that apprciate in price through time. Just like how everyone thinks that buying a house is investment without taking into account the cost of interest, maintainence, inflation, taxes, etc (YES, many of you out there buying houses as an investment is actually buying a liability brows.gif )

So to her something that she bought a long time ago, now cost more means she make money, means good. Hence her views on diamonds as a good investment. It is just a matter of preference. Some ppl buy art as an investment, others collect comics/coins/stamps as investment.

No point you trying to force your views down her throat. The fact remains that diamond do appreciate in price(regardless of who is controlling/playing the market) makes it an investment. Not a good one. Nor a very profitable one, but a form of investment nonetheless.
*
thanks bishop
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post Apr 28 2009, 06:26 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 06:11 PM)
oh no, but i need to buy a house to live in! Paying rent money just don't cut it!  biggrin.gif
*
well if you buy a house at RM500k with interest at 6% you are paying RM30k of interest a year. So if you are renting at RM2k/month you are actually saving on interest. Cause paying RM2k a month is not getting you closer to buying the house.... And if you are taking a 20 year loan you end up paying RM1.2million for your house... shocking.gif rclxub.gif

(but when you sell it for RM1million you think that you made a good investment doh.gif )



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post Apr 28 2009, 06:39 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 06:26 PM)
well if you buy a house at RM500k with interest at 6% you are paying RM30k of interest a year. So if you are renting at RM2k/month you are actually saving on interest. Cause paying RM2k a month is not getting you closer to buying the house.... And if you are taking a 20 year loan you end up paying RM1.2million for your house...  shocking.gif  rclxub.gif

(but when you sell it for RM1million you think that you made a good investment doh.gif )
*
But at least there's some return (maybe some lost), but if i rent, i don't get anything in the end? sorry if i seem lost! smile.gif
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post Apr 28 2009, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 06:39 PM)
But at least there's some return (maybe some lost), but if i rent, i don't get anything in the end? sorry if i seem lost!  smile.gif
*
If you rent you get a house to stay. If you buy you also get a house to stay. So you get the same thing - a house to stay. In the end? In the end you die. Dont need a house by then. whistling.gif

But the idea of investment is to make money. If you buy your house and it appreciates 10x in price but you dont sell it then it is not an investment because you didnt make money out of it. (like my mom's house - up 15x but she dont want to sell shocking.gif )

(Think we just hijacked the diamond thread.... whistling.gif )

This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 28 2009, 07:09 PM
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post Apr 28 2009, 08:02 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 06:00 PM)
Silverhawk, there is no point continuing to flame moorish. She has a very simplistic view of investment. She is not a sophiscated investor. She like many out there views investment as something that apprciate in price through time. Just like how everyone thinks that buying a house is investment without taking into account the cost of interest, maintainence, inflation, taxes, etc (YES, many of you out there buying houses as an investment is actually buying a liability brows.gif )

So to her something that she bought a long time ago, now cost more means she make money, means good. Hence her views on diamonds as a good investment. It is just a matter of preference. Some ppl buy art as an investment, others collect comics/coins/stamps as investment.


Wow Bishop, how far will you bend over to justify and defend Moorish's ignorant talk?

That IS what you're saying, isn't it? That she doesn't know what she's talking about? That although it doesn't make much sense and cannot be called an investment by ANY real standard, to her "simple" ways of thinking it does, and thus she can make that misrepresentation without being called out on it?

And oh my gosh, look, Silverhawk is trying to FORCE his views down her throat?
QUOTE
No point you trying to force your views down her throat.

The fact remains that diamond do appreciate in price(regardless of who is controlling/playing the market) makes it an investment.

Not a good one.

Nor a very profitable one,

but a form of investment nonetheless.
*
Last I looked, only WORMS twisted and turned themselves around like that.
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post Apr 28 2009, 08:15 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 06:00 PM)
Silverhawk, there is no point continuing to flame moorish. She has a very simplistic view of investment. She is not a sophiscated investor. She like many out there views investment as something that apprciate in price through time. Just like how everyone thinks that buying a house is investment without taking into account the cost of interest, maintainence, inflation, taxes, etc (YES, many of you out there buying houses as an investment is actually buying a liability brows.gif )

So to her something that she bought a long time ago, now cost more means she make money, means good. Hence her views on diamonds as a good investment. It is just a matter of preference. Some ppl buy art as an investment, others collect comics/coins/stamps as investment.

No point you trying to force your views down her throat. The fact remains that diamond do appreciate in price(regardless of who is controlling/playing the market) makes it an investment. Not a good one. Nor a very profitable one, but a form of investment nonetheless.
*
Dude, I'm not flaming her. If I start flaming her, she might start crying to her hubby laugh.gif

I don't mind that she disagrees with me as long as she can back up what she says and admit when she's been wrong. Instead she goes about insulting me and saying that what I say has no educational basis. Really, what's the justification for that? The questions I posed were real question, even the question regarding the resale market for diamonds which would surely interest many people here... she chose to ignore and go about her just childish ways.

The fact is, she's been proven wrong on the investment point, but she still continues to push it. If this is a topic to educate people, then I believe people should be properly educated. Its not about HER, its about the information people will get when they read this topic. We should not allow people to be mislead. Unfortunately her maturity and sales background completely blinds her to this simple fact.

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post Apr 28 2009, 08:29 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 08:02 PM)
Wow Bishop, how far will you bend over to justify and defend Moorish's ignorant talk?

That IS what you're saying, isn't it? That she doesn't know what she's talking about? That although it doesn't make much sense and cannot be called an investment by ANY real standard, to her "simple" ways of thinking it does, and thus she can make that misrepresentation without being called out on it?

And oh my gosh, look, Silverhawk is trying to FORCE his views down her throat?
Last I looked, only WORMS twisted and turned themselves around like that.
*
The issue is that you are judging your standards against hers. By her standards that much appreciation is a good investment. That is her standard. You are putting your standards against hers. Many are happy with a proton, others will never drive anything less than a BMW. Are you to say that the latter is wrong. No. It is just a matter of different standards or reference point if you must.

As for the WORMS statement. It is not twisting. It is a fact. Again you are measuring against your yardstick. Good for her is obviously not good enough for you. What is an investment but appreciation in value. No one say it must be of significant appreciation.


Added on April 28, 2009, 8:44 pm
QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 28 2009, 08:15 PM)
Dude, I'm not flaming her. If I start flaming her, she might start crying to her hubby laugh.gif

I don't mind that she disagrees with me as long as she can back up what she says and admit when she's been wrong. Instead she goes about insulting me and saying that what I say has no educational basis. Really, what's the justification for that? The questions I posed were real question, even the question regarding the resale market for diamonds which would surely interest many people here... she chose to ignore and go about her just childish ways.

The fact is, she's been proven wrong on the investment point, but she still continues to push it. If this is a topic to educate people, then I believe people should be properly educated. Its not about HER, its about the information people will get when they read this topic. We should not allow people to be mislead. Unfortunately her maturity and sales background completely blinds her to this simple fact.
*
Lets put it in her methodology of thinking.

I like shinny stones = GOOD
Shinny stones appreciate in price = INVESTMENT

therefore GOOD INVESTMENT.

Obviously this method of investment is not up to both your standards then let her be happy in her reality. We are not here to judge her sense of value. She obviously put a lot of it in shinny stones but then you must remember that that is her reality/life.

I am not supporting or defending moorish. I just believe that everyone has their values and priority in different things. Some in money, some in relationship, some in god, and there are some in little shinny stones. We are not here to impose our values to other ppl. There is really no point in agrueing on this, it would be like argueing that my god is better than your god.



This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 28 2009, 08:44 PM
silverhawk
post Apr 28 2009, 08:47 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 08:29 PM)
The issue is that you are judging your standards against hers. By her standards that much appreciation is a good investment. That is her standard. You are putting your standards against hers. Many are happy with a proton, others will never drive anything less than a BMW. Are you to say that the latter is wrong. No. It is just a matter of different standards or reference point if you must.

As for the WORMS statement. It is not twisting. It is a fact. Again you are measuring against your yardstick. Good for her is obviously not good enough for you. What is an investment but appreciation in value. No one say it must be of significant appreciation.
*

Personal preference and standards should not come into play in education. Its not about measuring one standard with another, that is pointless. Its about providing objective information to people. Just because she thinks its an investment, doesn't mean she has the right to say its an investment. Furthermore, it isn't right for her to tout such numbers without calculating the actual ROI properly. Such information is inaccurate and misleading.

If its just between me and moorish, I wouldn't be doing this, there's no point. However many more are going to read this topic to learn about diamonds, and I believe people should know more about diamonds than just choosing what to buy. They should know what it is they're buying, both good and bad. What they choice they make or what they learn from this is entirely up to them. At least, we provided information in an objective manner.

Let me stress it again, the diamond education moorish is giving, is like teaching people how to have sex and achieve great orgasms, but totally missing the information on responsibility and STDs. Education isn't just only about the good stuff.
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post Apr 28 2009, 10:23 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 28 2009, 08:47 PM)
Personal preference and standards should not come into play in education. Its not about measuring one standard with another, that is pointless. Its about providing objective information to people. Just because she thinks its an investment, doesn't mean she has the right to say its an investment. Furthermore, it isn't right for her to tout such numbers without calculating the actual ROI properly. Such information is inaccurate and misleading.

If its just between me and moorish, I wouldn't be doing this, there's no point. However many more are going to read this topic to learn about diamonds, and I believe people should know more about diamonds than just choosing what to buy. They should know what it is they're buying, both good and bad. What they choice they make or what they learn from this is entirely up to them. At least, we provided information in an objective manner.

Let me stress it again, the diamond education moorish is giving, is like teaching people how to have sex and achieve great orgasms, but totally missing the information on responsibility and STDs. Education isn't just only about the good stuff.
*
Her approach to investment is very simplistic. I dont think she knows what ROI is. Read my previous post. Again a simple appreciation in value is also an investment. And her reference to good is probably more personal to her than actual monetary value.

I agree with the education part. I just dont agree with the tone that this thread has taken. It has becomed a series of attacks and justifications between the posters. If we approach it in a more mature manner instead of name calling and ego centric chanllanges, I think it would be a lot easier to digest. (but then that is only my point of view... rolleyes.gif )


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post Apr 28 2009, 11:55 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 08:02 PM)
Wow Bishop, how far will you bend over to justify and defend Moorish's ignorant talk?

That IS what you're saying, isn't it? That she doesn't know what she's talking about? That although it doesn't make much sense and cannot be called an investment by ANY real standard, to her "simple" ways of thinking it does, and thus she can make that misrepresentation without being called out on it?

And oh my gosh, look, Silverhawk is trying to FORCE his views down her throat?
Last I looked, only WORMS twisted and turned themselves around like that.
*
QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 08:29 PM)
The issue is that you are judging your standards against hers. By her standards that much appreciation is a good investment. That is her standard. You are putting your standards against hers. Many are happy with a proton, others will never drive anything less than a BMW. Are you to say that the latter is wrong. No. It is just a matter of different standards or reference point if you must.

As for the WORMS statement. It is not twisting. It is a fact. Again you are measuring against your yardstick. Good for her is obviously not good enough for you. What is an investment but appreciation in value. No one say it must be of significant appreciation.


Added on April 28, 2009, 8:44 pm
Lets put it in her methodology of thinking.

I like shinny stones = GOOD
Shinny stones appreciate in price = INVESTMENT

therefore GOOD INVESTMENT.

Obviously this method of investment is not up to both your standards then let her be happy in her reality. We are not here to judge her sense of value. She obviously put a lot of it in shinny stones but then you must remember that that is her reality/life.

I am not supporting or defending moorish. I just believe that everyone has their values and priority in different things. Some in money, some in relationship, some in god, and there are some in little shinny stones. We are not here to impose our values to other ppl. There is really no point in agrueing on this, it would be like argueing that my god is better than your god.
*
QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 28 2009, 08:47 PM)
Personal preference and standards should not come into play in education. Its not about measuring one standard with another, that is pointless. Its about providing objective information to people. Just because she thinks its an investment, doesn't mean she has the right to say its an investment. Furthermore, it isn't right for her to tout such numbers without calculating the actual ROI properly. Such information is inaccurate and misleading.

If its just between me and moorish, I wouldn't be doing this, there's no point. However many more are going to read this topic to learn about diamonds, and I believe people should know more about diamonds than just choosing what to buy. They should know what it is they're buying, both good and bad. What they choice they make or what they learn from this is entirely up to them. At least, we provided information in an objective manner.

Let me stress it again, the diamond education moorish is giving, is like teaching people how to have sex and achieve great orgasms, but totally missing the information on responsibility and STDs. Education isn't just only about the good stuff.
*
lets restart this whole thing...Silver hawk you keep saying I'm wrong bla bla, diamond is a bad investment. To me it is a damn good investment as compared to my other luxury item which I can only sell half the price should I need money, hence the example of my hubbys CD player. I get to wear it for so many years (, and pass it to my son/daughter in future, they continue to wear it) and shall the need arises we can still sell it yes in my terms 10X the price we bought it 40 years later.

I love diamonds, where else my hubby never argues about this with me because his toys all loses money...
buy motorbike then endless upgrading in shop 1 year later sell at lost,
fish la everyday bags of stuff from fish shop and when fish finally grows up, he gives it away doh.gif ,
HIFI also same case never finish upgrading every single time he sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same part,
cameras same case, every new models come out must change and sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same thing...

all his luxury items loses money!!! so to him when I play diamond he is happy, better than my LV or bottega bags or handphones.
He says at least all these he buys for me can be passed down to our kids.

So in which part do you disagree? I'm coming from the sense of luxury item, maybe you're coming from a sense of full time income ...
if full time income I also told you last time when we were dealing with wholesale diamond we dun make much money, we made on other colored stones. Maybe my hubby was too honest thats why he dun make money on diamonds where else people are making tons of profits.

That is also why you dun see a single shop selling only loose diamonds, but you do see many shops selling loose colored stones. Those who sell diamonds need to couple with set jewellery to cover back, anyway thats besides the point.

ok your turn
silverhawk
post Apr 29 2009, 12:38 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 11:55 PM)
lets restart this whole thing...Silver hawk you keep saying I'm wrong bla bla, diamond is a bad investment. To me it is a damn good investment as compared to my other luxury item which I can only sell half the price should I need money, hence the example of my hubbys CD player. I get to wear it for so many years (, and pass it to my son/daughter in future, they continue to wear it) and shall the need arises we can still sell it yes in my terms 10X the price we bought it 40 years later.

I love diamonds, where else my hubby never argues about this with me because his toys all loses money...
buy motorbike then endless upgrading in shop 1 year later sell at lost,
fish la everyday bags of stuff from fish shop and when fish finally grows up, he gives it away doh.gif ,
HIFI also same case never finish upgrading every single time he sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same part,
cameras same case, every new models come out must change and sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same thing...

all his luxury items loses money!!! so to him when I play diamond he is happy, better than my LV or bottega bags or handphones.
He says at least all these he buys for me can be passed down to our kids.

So in which part do you disagree? I'm coming from the sense of luxury item, maybe you're coming from a sense of full time income ...
if full time income I also told you last time when we were dealing with wholesale diamond we dun make much money, we made on other colored stones. Maybe my hubby was too honest thats why he dun make money on diamonds where else people are making tons of profits.

That is also why you dun see a single shop selling only loose diamonds, but you do see many shops selling loose colored stones. Those who sell diamonds need to couple with set jewellery to cover back, anyway thats besides the point.

ok your turn
*
Ok, lets get one thing clear. Whatever we talk about, don't take it personally. The information we exchange isn't about you. Its about educating the people who will be reading this topic. Keep this goal in mind, and my points should become more clear to you. Stop being so darn defensive.

It doesn't matter which side we're coming from. You're making a claim that diamonds are a good investment. You may have that opinion, but others may not. People who read this are going to think that since you know more, what you say is right. They would also think its a good investment, and you back that up by saying that a diamond has been shown to be worth 10x more than its initial value 40 years after sale. Even after I proved to you that your claim of a 1000% ROI is false and its ROI is only about 70%, you still stick to such figures.

If your feeble mind isn't sharp enough to grasp it. I disagree with you on diamonds being a good investment. Not because I disagree with you its perceived value, but because you are giving biased, inaccurate and dishonest information. Be honest, impartial and objective when you give out your information. I don't see why you have to jack up all the numbers to make it look better than it actually is.

Now with that out of the way. I still want to know about the resale market for diamonds. Please provide as much information as you can, like where to typically get good prices, and what prices can people expect compared to wholesale prices, how to not get cheated or any other information that would help people maximise their earnings when selling off their diamonds.
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post Apr 29 2009, 01:21 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 12:38 AM)
Ok, lets get one thing clear. Whatever we talk about, don't take it personally. The information we exchange isn't about you. Its about educating the people who will be reading this topic. Keep this goal in mind, and my points should become more clear to you. Stop being so darn defensive.

It doesn't matter which side we're coming from. You're making a claim that diamonds are a good investment. You may have that opinion, but others may not. People who read this are going to think that since you know more, what you say is right. They would also think its a good investment, and you back that up by saying that a diamond has been shown to be worth 10x more than its initial value 40 years after sale. Even after I proved to you that your claim of a 1000% ROI is false and its ROI is only about 70%, you still stick to such figures.

If your feeble mind isn't sharp enough to grasp it. I disagree with you on diamonds being a good investment. Not because I disagree with you its perceived value, but because you are giving biased, inaccurate and dishonest information. Be honest, impartial and objective when you give out your information. I don't see why you have to jack up all the numbers to make it look better than it actually is.

Now with that out of the way. I still want to know about the resale market for diamonds. Please provide as much information as you can, like where to typically get good prices, and what prices can people expect compared to wholesale prices, how to not get cheated or any other information that would help people maximise their earnings when selling off their diamonds.
*
The red part...if you still wanna continue with personal attack I will put you back in ignore list.

if you stay calm and read the first page someone asked if buying diamonds is good investment, I did mention only above 5 carats top quality stones that you can invest in, because naturally mine large stone is priceless, the price do not appear in rapaport. That was the initial investment part. A lot of rich and famous people do invest in diamonds not to wear but to keep, but these are not normal diamonds, these are items on auctions and above 100Ks.

If you're talking about smaller stones for proposal ring, then dun get those below 0.50 cts, I dun really witness any appreciate or whatever you call it, my terms is increase in price over the years kept. Hence I advise people if you wan a proposal ring and also investment in mind, get at least a 0.50 cts stone.

And some people dun care about the value, they just wan a diamond and these people can buy any size they like.

If you trace back I've edi mention all these, just that words started flying around and all the confusion.

So what do you mean buy for investment? as professionally?
This thread is about buying your diamond for proposal ring to your wife...if its about investment then it should be in Finance and business.

About when to buy...of coz when the market is slow like right now, some will sell at cost price because they cannot afford to service loans or they would liquid the cash to stock up on gold jewellery that moves faster.

About cheated and so on...how do I know? if the shop really wan to con you they're plenty of ways to do it, but I can assure you most reputable big shops are dead honest.

Start with buying diamonds with cert, your serial number is laser print to your diamond this is the safest way to not get conned. This is where Debeer helps to standardize and you get what you paid for. Unlike other gems.

ask to see latest rapaport price so the shop dun simply pluck market price out of thin air....Eh infact I edi mention all these in earlier pages, go back and read la. Some shops I wont name la would get in trouble, they dun show rapaport prices, and these people who buy paid very high price for the stones, then maybe years later they try to sell and they lose money they start telling people dun buy diamonds.

Another thing I rber now...some stones you get better discount, some like my earrings when I wanted to buy, was an E color 0.50 matching pairs meaning the size and everything else is very similar, you get very vert little discount because quite difficult to get matching pairs. But price so expensive, it was somewhere 12k if rber correctly, lucky hubby got plenty of contacts and settle with a 0.49 matching pairs this is something very rare to come by and price is 7.5K much much cheaper than the 0.50 cts pairs. The shop was cash jam and sold at cost price or maybe less than 5% profit.

So you really need to shop, but before this you need to really understand diamonds, among the most crucial thing is the cutting!!!

So to summarize my investment part I've edi mention so many times, and btw I dun over inflate prices I mention here, the 400 and sold at 4000 is really what it is, there is another case even better, a fren of my mom bought a red diamond back in the 70s at myammar for I think 1k, she sold that pc at 2001, my boss help to transact, 50K but this is red diamond la very rare to come by.

And to be fair...I also come across plenty of people kena conned, they bought non certify 1 ctc stone back in the 80s for 25k, which can only sell back at 15k in year 2000, was a H color but I something.

So I've seen those that are not conned made money (in my terms) and those who kena con lose money. But nowadays people rarely buy big uncertified stones.

So back to topic in which part do you think diamond make poor investment for your wifes proposal ring?







silverhawk
post Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 01:21 AM)
The red part...if you still wanna continue with personal attack I will put you back in ignore list.

Sorry, I was getting quite annoyed cause I mentioned it so many times and you kept missing the point.

QUOTE
And some people dun care about the value, they just wan a diamond and these people can buy any size they like.

Exactly, so there's no need to mention that its a good investment now is there? Its misleading to people.

QUOTE
So what do you mean buy for investment? as professionally?

Whatever that word means to people.

QUOTE
About cheated and so on...how do I know? if the shop really wan to con you they're plenty of ways to do it, but I can assure you most reputable big shops are dead honest.

There's no point you assure us of anything, the best way to prevent being conned is knowledge. So if you know they can con, then you should share it so people can be aware of such methods/techniques.

QUOTE
So to summarize my investment part I've edi mention so many times, and btw I dun over inflate prices I mention here, the 400 and sold at 4000 is really what it is, there is another case even better, a fren of my mom bought a red diamond back in the 70s at myammar for I think 1k, she sold that pc at 2001, my boss help to transact, 50K but this is red diamond la very rare to come by.

1k -> 50k is good, but as you said that's rare smile.gif What I'm trying to tell you is that saying 400 -> 4000 is a 10x return of value is inaccurate. I'm not saying that you're lying about the value, but if you adjust for inflation, the return isn't so high any more. Once again, its about giving reliable information to people.

QUOTE
So back to topic in which part do you think diamond make poor investment for your wifes proposal ring?
*

That point is moot, because if I do get diamonds, its not because I think of them as an investment. To me, they're not worth their asking price, but they ARE PRETTY and if they serve the purpose I want them to, I'll gladly pay the price. That doesn't mean I'll continue to perpetuate the myth that diamonds are valuable and forever.
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post Apr 29 2009, 04:15 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 11:55 PM)
lets restart this whole thing...Silver hawk you keep saying I'm wrong bla bla, diamond is a bad investment. To me it is a damn good investment as compared to my other luxury item which I can only sell half the price should I need money, hence the example of my hubbys CD player. I get to wear it for so many years (, and pass it to my son/daughter in future, they continue to wear it) and shall the need arises we can still sell it yes in my terms 10X the price we bought it 40 years later.

I love diamonds, where else my hubby never argues about this with me because his toys all loses money...
buy motorbike then endless upgrading in shop 1 year later sell at lost,
fish la everyday bags of stuff from fish shop and when fish finally grows up, he gives it away doh.gif ,
HIFI also same case never finish upgrading every single time he sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same part,
cameras same case, every new models come out must change and sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same thing...

all his luxury items loses money!!! so to him when I play diamond he is happy, better than my LV or bottega bags or handphones.
He says at least all these he buys for me can be passed down to our kids.

*
I believe the confusion is in the term "investment".
"Investing is the active redirecting resources from being consumed today so that they may create benefits in the future; the use of assets to earn income or profit."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment#cite_note-1

But when you say investing in CD players and motorcycles, then i think you have confused everyone on the term investment. Thoose are doodads. Those so called investments are self gratification in nature and have no inherit value other than to the initial purchaser. The word "investment" used in the purchase of those luxury items are used very loosely. It is just post justification of spending large sums of money.

So if you are comparing doodads as a means of investment with diamond, I see why you would say that it is a "damn good investment", because those other things are not what we would call investments. They are called spending money. rolleyes.gif

So Silverhawk, like i said in my earlier post, she has a simplistic interpretation of the term investment. So when you talk in terms of ROI, it is not relavant as she compares her diamonds to HiFi's and motorcycles as means of investment. In that sense it is really damn good. thumbup.gif





LittleGhost
post Apr 29 2009, 09:29 AM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 04:15 AM)
I believe the confusion is in the term "investment".
"Investing is the active redirecting resources from being consumed today so that they may create benefits in the future; the use of assets to earn income or profit."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment#cite_note-1

But when you say investing in CD players and motorcycles, then i think you have confused everyone on the term investment. Thoose are doodads. Those so called investments are self gratification in nature and have no inherit value other than to the initial purchaser. The word "investment" used in the purchase of those luxury items are used very loosely. It is just post justification of spending large sums of money.

So if you are comparing doodads as a means of investment with diamond, I see why you would say that it is a "damn good investment", because those other things are not what we would call investments. They are called spending money.  rolleyes.gif

So Silverhawk, like i said in my earlier post, she has a simplistic interpretation of the term investment. So when you talk in terms of ROI, it is not relavant as she compares her diamonds to HiFi's and motorcycles as means of investment. In that sense it is really damn good.  thumbup.gif
*
The issue is with she's still grasping her ego and not keen to learn/admit her own faults when it's obvious people are proving her wrong with the proper facts.

If you want to educate people, at least be humble enough to accept and learn your own mistakes.


TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 04:15 AM)
I believe the confusion is in the term "investment".
"Investing is the active redirecting resources from being consumed today so that they may create benefits in the future; the use of assets to earn income or profit."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment#cite_note-1

But when you say investing in CD players and motorcycles, then i think you have confused everyone on the term investment. Thoose are doodads. Those so called investments are self gratification in nature and have no inherit value other than to the initial purchaser. The word "investment" used in the purchase of those luxury items are used very loosely. It is just post justification of spending large sums of money.

So if you are comparing doodads as a means of investment with diamond, I see why you would say that it is a "damn good investment", because those other things are not what we would call investments. They are called spending money.  rolleyes.gif

So Silverhawk, like i said in my earlier post, she has a simplistic interpretation of the term investment. So when you talk in terms of ROI, it is not relavant as she compares her diamonds to HiFi's and motorcycles as means of investment. In that sense it is really damn good.  thumbup.gif
*
Sorry bishop you lost me there a bit too, I'm too used to hearing people say I invest in house, (but I know the real money is you invest in shops)
I invest all my time and money in bonsai plants thats what my in laws would say.

And about motorcycles, no we all know that is not investment coz the day he takes the key we know it is losing money, what my hubby says is better I play diamonds than spending on LV, because he thinks buying diamond there is at least value in future. So that was my investment sense.


QUOTE(LittleGhost @ Apr 29 2009, 09:29 AM)
The issue is with she's still grasping her ego and not keen to learn/admit her own faults when it's obvious people are proving her wrong with the proper facts.

If you want to educate people, at least be humble enough to accept and learn your own mistakes.
*
If you want to learn trade secrets from people at least know how to be humble and ask, its not like I"m desperate to preach, I'm only here to help those who are interested to buy diamonds for their future wife to be.
nottyKitty
post Apr 29 2009, 09:45 AM

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moorish, jz ignore those that don't know how to value diamonds...

its useless trying to tell them. they will always think they are right.
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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 09:42 AM)
Sorry bishop you lost me there a bit too, I'm too used to hearing people say I invest in house, (but I know the real money is you invest in shops)
I invest all my time and money in bonsai plants thats what my in laws would say.

*
You have confused everyone when you use the term investment rclxub.gif . Most ppl understand it as defined in my previous post.

An underlying point in that post that I left out is that most, if not all, of those assets–the HDTV’s, the luxury cars, the stereo systems, the swimming pools–are horrible investments. They aren’t “assets” at all. Instead, they are fake “assets.” Better yet, they are liabilities. (Robert Kiyosaki likes to call them “doodads.”)
http://flimjo.com/fake-assets-doodads-expe...epleting-items/

That is why the others are questioning you on the returns (ROI) when you say investment. Just clarifying your point of reference to them. rolleyes.gif

I think the others will understand your stand now. whistling.gif



TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 10:16 AM

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QUOTE(nottyKitty @ Apr 29 2009, 09:45 AM)
moorish, jz ignore those that don't know how to value diamonds...

its useless trying to tell them. they will always think they are right.
*
QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 10:02 AM)
You have confused everyone when you use the term investment rclxub.gif . Most ppl understand it as defined in my previous post.

An underlying point in that post that I left out is that most, if not all, of those assets–the HDTV’s, the luxury cars, the stereo systems, the swimming pools–are horrible investments.  They aren’t “assets” at all.  Instead, they are fake “assets.”  Better yet, they are liabilities.  (Robert Kiyosaki likes to call them “doodads.”)
http://flimjo.com/fake-assets-doodads-expe...epleting-items/

That is why the others are questioning you on the returns (ROI) when you say investment. Just clarifying your point of reference to them.  rolleyes.gif

I think the others will understand your stand now.  whistling.gif
*
ok thanks for the clarifications...


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post Apr 29 2009, 10:20 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 10:16 AM)
ok thanks for the clarifications...
*
No worries.

Go back to telling ppl how to buy pretty diamonds. thumbup.gif



kenji1903
post Apr 29 2009, 10:22 AM

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the term investment is too general... Kiyosaki calls the house you are staying a liability even though one have fully paid it... why? because you still need to pay for maintenance... but banks/accountants calls any property an asset, regardless if its making/loosing money...

so Moorish's "investment" term is really her point of view... and there's no right or wrong about it...

this is a forum and some readers might have their own definition of investment... so don't get do heated up, after all, we're all here to have fun and share thoughts, right? smile.gif

also... something you bought 10 years ago for a low price and able to sell for a higher price now does not necessarily mean you made money...
e.g. a house you bought 100k 10 years ago and sell at 300k does not mean you made 200k... the current market price for a house is already 300k so, you practically didn't make anything... you are considered making money if the current market price for the house is 250k because you still have extra cash after buying the new house... that's my personal definition... chill smile.gif
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post Apr 29 2009, 10:28 AM

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QUOTE(kenji1903 @ Apr 29 2009, 10:22 AM)
the term investment is too general... Kiyosaki calls the house you are staying a liability even though one have fully paid it... why? because you still need to pay for maintenance... but banks/accountants calls any property an asset, regardless if its making/loosing money...

so Moorish's "investment" term is really her point of view... and there's no right or wrong about it...

this is a forum and some readers might have their own definition of investment... so don't get do heated up, after all, we're all here to have fun and share thoughts, right? smile.gif

also... something you bought 10 years ago for a low price and able to sell for a higher price now does not necessarily mean you made money...
e.g. a house you bought 100k 10 years ago and sell at 300k does not mean you made 200k... the current market price for a house is already 300k so, you practically didn't make anything... you are considered making money if the current market price for the house is 250k because you still have extra cash after buying the new house... that's my personal definition... chill smile.gif
*
it's claiming you can earn 10x while the real truth is that you arent that isnt right.
TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 10:30 AM

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[quote=kenji1903,Apr 29 2009, 10:22 AM]
the term investment is too general... Kiyosaki calls the house you are staying a liability even though one have fully paid it... why? because you still need to pay for maintenance... but banks/accountants calls any property an asset, regardless if its making/loosing money...

so Moorish's "investment" term is really her point of view... and there's no right or wrong about it...

this is a forum and some readers might have their own definition of investment... so don't get do heated up, after all, we're all here to have fun and share thoughts, right? smile.gif

also... something you bought 10 years ago for a low price and able to sell for a higher price now does not necessarily mean you made money...
e.g. a house you bought 100k 10 years ago and sell at 300k does not mean you made 200k... the current market price for a house is already 300k so, you practically didn't make anything... you are considered making money if the current market price for the house is 250k because you still have extra cash after buying the new house... that's my personal definition... chill smile.gif
*

[/quote]

Thanks kenji..

Since the investing part keeps spining in me...so decide to google a bit about investment in diamond, sounds very similar to what I'v learn from the industry, but anyway just for you all to digest:

http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/inv...ment-51499.aspx

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



Added on April 29, 2009, 10:37 am[quote=LittleGhost,Apr 29 2009, 10:28 AM]
it's claiming you can earn 10x while the real truth is that you arent that isnt right.
*

[/quote]

I think I mention you can sell 10X the price you bought right?
And seriously do you expect an expert financial officer to sell diamonds?
If you think it isnt worth the money or it is not worth an investment...that is you
to me it is very good.

We had just went thru this arguement 2 days ago, pls reread instead of argueing the same thing here all over again.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 29 2009, 10:39 AM
Bishop
post Apr 29 2009, 10:39 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 10:30 AM)
Thanks kenji..

Since the investing part keeps spining in me...so decide to google a bit about investment in diamond, sounds very similar to what I'v learn from the industry, but anyway just for you all to digest:

*
I think you should focus on advising ppl on how to select good diamonds and avoid the idea of investment.
One of the criteria of good investment is liquidity. As mentioned in the 2nd paragraph and somewhere in the middle of your article, diamonds are not very liquid, therefore making them not very good investment.

Lets just focus on the original intent of this thread, selecting diamonds.

This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 29 2009, 10:55 AM
LittleGhost
post Apr 29 2009, 10:42 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 10:30 AM)
I think I mention you can sell 10X the price you bought right?
And seriously do you expect an expert financial officer to sell diamonds?
If you think it isnt worth the money or it is not worth an investment...that is you
to me it is very good.

We had just went thru this arguement 2 days ago, pls reread instead of argueing the same thing here all over again.
*
despite all that disagreement, I voted yes because I wanted to learn how end users should look at diamonds.

But the point where you started spreading "lies" that deviates from the original intent of this thread, it becomes a turn-off.

EDIT: Oh and you are not earning 10x figure. Please, if you want to educate, it's for the mass, not for you. If you want this thread to be your own personal delusion, keep it to yourself. This is not the way to share/educate when you're only selfishly considering yourself.

This post has been edited by LittleGhost: Apr 29 2009, 10:54 AM
silverhawk
post Apr 29 2009, 10:48 AM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 10:30 AM)
Since the investing part keeps spining in me...so decide to google a bit about investment in diamond, sounds very similar to what I'v learn from the industry, but anyway just for you all to digest:

Anyone who knows the characteristics of diamonds and basic knowledge of the market would already know everything that article says smile.gif Try to understand my point, its not about the investment itself per se. Its about how you're giving inaccurate and dishonest information regarding the diamond's resale value.

QUOTE
I think I mention you can sell 10X the price you bought right?
And seriously do you expect an expert financial officer to sell diamonds?

I can understand if you don't know about adjusting prices/value for inflation. Most people do not realise that, that is fine. That just makes your information inaccurate. However, once you've been educated on it, and you still continue to provide the same inaccurate information, then your information also becomes dishonest. THAT is my contention with your points.

QUOTE
If you think it isnt worth the money or it is not worth an investment...that is you
to me it is very good.
*

Lady, its not about you. Please oh please get that into your head.
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post Apr 29 2009, 10:58 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 10:48 AM)
I can understand if you don't know about adjusting prices/value for inflation. Most people do not realise that, that is fine. That just makes your information inaccurate. However, once you've been educated on it, and you still continue to provide the same inaccurate information, then your information also becomes dishonest. THAT is my contention with your points.
*
You can take a horse to the water but that doesnt mean it will drink... rolleyes.gif



kenji1903
post Apr 29 2009, 10:58 AM

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boys and girls... back to selecting diamonds smile.gif
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post Apr 29 2009, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 10:58 AM)
You can take a horse to the water but that doesnt mean it will drink...  rolleyes.gif
*
That's true tongue.gif
But I can put a sign next to the horse telling people that the horse doesn't drink tongue.gif

TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 11:41 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 11:09 AM)
That's true tongue.gif
But I can put a sign next to the horse telling people that the horse doesn't drink tongue.gif
*
you can call me sturborn.... which I am, my hubby prefers using the terms tiuman.

I think this thread is irrelevent, too many expert in here already, nothing I want to share further. Tot of helping but if you insist I'm dishonest as if I'm trying to sell you something than I'll stop.

I really dun wan to carry the tag like a con woman, I'm edi sticking my neck out with my face plastered in here which in case goldsmith who knows me see what I'm saying would edi curse me for telling so many things.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 29 2009, 12:07 PM
wlcling
post Apr 29 2009, 12:08 PM

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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 09:42 AM)
And about motorcycles, no we all know that is not investment coz the day he takes the key we know it is losing money, what my hubby says is better I play diamonds than spending on LV, because he thinks buying diamond there is at least value in future. So that was my investment sense.

*
it's possible to invest in designer goods as well. biggrin.gif There are people investing in limited edition designer bags or runway bags because prices may go up when discontinued.

Of course the question is which is a good/better investment? Different people would have different views biggrin.gif

QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 11:41 AM)
you can call me sturborn.... which I am, my hubby prefers using the terms tiuman.

I think this thread is irrelevent, too many expert in here already, nothing I want to share further. Tot of helping but if you insist I'm dishonest as if I'm trying to sell you something than lets close this topic.
*
(do you mean the term human? the typo sounds awful! biggrin.gif )

Everyone is trying to contribute in their own ways, and that's what a forum is about! Bet you have your specialty areas everyone would be glad to learn about anyways la.

smile.gif
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QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 29 2009, 11:41 AM)
you can call me sturborn.... which I am, my hubby prefers using the terms tiuman.

I think this thread is irrelevent, too many expert in here already, nothing I want to share further. Tot of helping but if you insist I'm dishonest as if I'm trying to sell you something than I'll stop.

I really dun wan to carry the tag like a con woman, I'm edi sticking my neck out with my face plastered in here which in case goldsmith who knows me see what I'm saying would edi curse me for telling so many things.
*
Your help is much appreciated, don't doubt that. Its just not fair to provide information that will help a sale, but doesn't really help a buyer to make an informed decision. The fact that you're afraid that merchants are going to curse you for revealing so much is proof that there's a certain level of dishonesty in the market. If you're afraid that your face is shown and people might recognise you... you can always create a dupe to provide the information.

P.S. - I'm probably just as stubborn as you laugh.gif

This post has been edited by silverhawk: Apr 29 2009, 12:14 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 12:13 PM)
Your help is much appreciated, don't doubt that. Its just not fair to provide information that will help a sale, but doesn't really help a buyer to make an informed decision. The fact that you're afraid that merchants are going to curse you for revealing so much is proof that there's a certain level of dishonesty in the market. If you're afraid that your face is shown and people might recognise you... you can always create a dupe to provide the information.

P.S. - I'm probably just as stubborn as you laugh.gif
*
I've stated way way earlier they;re bad shops and they're good ones...how to create dupes?
Bishop
post Apr 29 2009, 01:32 PM

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Such a waste. I was starting to like this thread. sad.gif

(what ever happend to Mr D1ck and his breast cutting thingy?)

This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 29 2009, 01:46 PM
wlcling
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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 01:32 PM)
Such a waste. I was starting to like this thread.  sad.gif

(what ever happend to Mr D1ck and his breast cutting thingy?)
*
well if its of any consolation, there's still alot of D1cks out there. whistling.gif
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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 01:32 PM)
Such a waste. I was starting to like this thread.  sad.gif

(what ever happend to Mr D1ck and his breast cutting thingy?)
*
Do you think I live on forums or something, or that this debate is even remotely important enough for me to check on often?

Btw, you sir, need to call me MISTER Poon.
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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 29 2009, 02:35 PM)
Do you think I live on forums or something, or that this debate is even remotely important enough for me to check on often?

Btw, you sir, need to call me MISTER Poon.
*
Mister Poon... nani?
SUSDickson Poon
post Apr 29 2009, 03:56 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 03:00 PM)
Mister Poon... nani?
*
whistling.gif


Added on April 29, 2009, 4:22 pm
QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 05:35 PM)
My dear "buddy", at which point did I say that I didnt care? vmad.gif
Then again I never said that I do.  rolleyes.gif

I merely highlighted the point that there are many other unscruplous business and trades out there. Not just the diamond trade which you take so personally. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it is a sad predicament of what is happening in the diamond trade. But that is not the only trade that has cause war and abused human rights. What about all the sweat shops in indochina? You going to stop wearing clothes?

You are just making a very personal view on the matter. Think about it. You talk about De Beers financing the slave trade in Africa. Well they merely pay for services provided.

-They want diamonds.
-Some ppl can get it for them.
-They pay.

In what circumstances these ppl choose to produce that diamond, I dont think that the ppl at De Beers really care. They just want the diamonds. Simply supply and demand. So if you think about it, De Beers only want the diamonds. It is the ppl in Africa that CHOOSES to kill/rape/enslave their OWN ppl for money.

So my dear "buddy", who is at wrong here? De Beers for willing to pay a lot of money for something seemingly worthless? or the warlords in Africa killing and enslaving their OWN ppl to get money? So who is actually really cutting off the breast of Africa?

So you are the ppl who feel the need to impose their views on to other ppl. Take a neutral view and see who is really doing all the butchering?
*
You are not putting forth a neutral viewpoint. You are speaking from a position of MORAL PUSILLANIMITY.

When you buy goods from people who play their trade through horrifying means of human exploitation and terrorism, what you are doing is FINANCING the same activities.

All of this just so you can give your girlfriend or wife feelings of "romance", "special" and "pretty"?

How f***ing ridiculous. You sir, are a truly disgusting person.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 29 2009, 04:25 PM
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post Apr 29 2009, 04:43 PM

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unpinned, and closed, after viewing this thread it has come to my consideration that this isnt cupid corner related after. perhaps girls corner if u wish TS....

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