Hi y'all!

"Old" newbie here. Got some questions for all the gym-rats here, especially the "o-tais". Need some feedback on my situation. Really hope that u guys can help me out. I'll try to make this as brief as possible, and please forgive me for any naive questions that I might ask.

Ok, first things first; a little info on myself.

I called myself "old" because, well, I'm 31yrs old. But i'm only now going to the gym to build that "mythical" gym body. (At least for me la).

I joined a ghetto gym (situated close to my apartment) about 1 month ago. It's owned by a former bodybuilder, and, according to him, former mr. malaysia. I'll refer to him here as "my coach".

Nway, from day one, my coach gave me a training program which he calls "Circuit Training", in which I do twelve (12) different excercises such as the following:

1. Cable Tricep Extention
2. Standing Calf raises
3. Leg extentions
4. Chest press
5. Hip twist (1minute)
6. Lat pulldown
7. Shoulder Press
8. Decline Situps (20-25)
9. Pec Dec
10. Seated cable row
11. Leg curls
12. Standing bicep curls (dumbell)

All the above exercises (except hip-twist and sit-ups) are done 10-12reps (or till failure), and are done in that order. This is what I do monday, wednesday, and friday, and being a former athlete in my school and uni days, I give every training session everything that I got.

So here's my problem:
On my 2nd week, my coach said that I should do two (2) sets of the above Circuit Training routine. After that, everytime after training, despite feeling very tired after the gym session, I have problems sleeping at night, sometimes staying awake till morning! If I do manage to sleep, it's after 3am and I wake up feeling like I i hadnt slept at all.
On top of that, I've fallen sick twice in the last month.

When I first decided to start gym training, my initial short term goal was to build up as much mass as possible till July, after which I would start doing more cardio, and go into the "cutting" phase till end of November.

So guys, my dilemma is:-

1. Why do I have problems sleeping after training? Is it because I am too unfit to train like this?
2. My goal is to bulk up on muscle. Is the Circuit Training routine given to me suitable? I know I might have limited knowledge in bodybuilding/strength training, but from what I understand, shouldnt bodybuilding training consist of "Body-part days"? Or is this training supposed to build my strengh first?

To be honest, I'm already kind of bored of this routine, and going to the gym seems more like a chore, rather than a joy, now. Plus, my coach gets really annoyed if I do anything outside of his training program.


And one more question on supplements:-
1. Since I want to bulk up, should I be taking Mass Gainers or just pure Whey Protein?
The thing is, I'm 5'6" (165cm) and 69kg (152lbs), my BMI is 25.1 and my body fat is 30% (according to some test machine), so I'm not actually lean and skinny. (I have some 'love-handles'). But I've been told that Mass Gainers are better than pure Whey Protein when u want to bulk up, and that pure Whey is better suited for the cutting phase.


So, that's all for now guys. Looking forward to yr answers. Thanx in advance. And sorry if I sounded like a complete dork.

Mass gainer if for people who cannot eat much. Mass gainer build fat or give you energy. You can easily get energy from rice or oats. Protein build muscle. So which do you choose.

Since you just start going to gym, why don't try the strength training first. Then go to full body, then go to split body workout. BTW , are you from seksyen13 shah Alam

waking up at night .. means you must be exercising before sleeping ... the rush can prevent a good night sleep


to get a better night sleep .. get serotonin (bread) .. or some melatonin (pills)
to help you sleep better (dont get sleeping pills it'll harm your liver)


since you have love handles ... i tell you what ..... do a heavy cardio for a few months ... till your endurance is at the peak, and your love handles all gone

it's more efficient if you lose your fat first them attempt bulking .. else your bulk might increase with the fat

then pickup mass gain + strength training ...

mass gain can actually be noticable if you have the endurance to complete it ... and the protein food as well

animal protein > vege protein

whey protein should be good .. since it's made of cheese .... if possible, try getting egg protein ... they're the easiest to absorbed by the body

try use high protein, low carbohydrate diet ....


1g protein = 4 calorie
1g carbohydrate = 4 calorie
1g fat = 9 calorie

You have to set a goal first,you ain't gonna gain much in the way you are training now.

@Plus, my coach gets really annoyed if I do anything outside of his training program.

/Well that sucks, cos I have the same problem.

That because after you work out, you feel fresh thus you can't sleep.

I dislike working out at night, from what I heard, you only get like 50% of it, because you are going to bed soon. Heard from many people. True or not, you decide.

Working out in the afternoon is the best.

Before you want to aim for a particular goal, you should really know what you want.

Don't come up with silly goals like " I dont want abs for the timebeing but I want to loose fat by doing situps on alternate days,by just feeling the muscle contraction or whatever donkey reasons "

If you have that mindset, you should change it because it is still early for you to do so.

Second, don't get to technical. I have to agree on what a few bodybuilders (bb'ers i meant aren't in this thread) in this forum say about instinctive training. Get good rest and seek proper advice, and of course eat sensibly


Good luck.

This post has been edited by shanecross: Apr 4 2009, 12:27 AM

Lol your post got hidden meaning behind it wan.

looking at your routine sure freak me out...that is too tiring man...maybe that's why you couldn't get good sleep...slowtalk with him le...try to have that body-part days...maybe he used to do that routine back then without having problem like yours...it's just that you were not into that routine...he's just coaching...

p/s : anyway, how was his body now ?? still toned ripped ??

Ooooh. I've never seen a circuit training log before.

How long have you been using that programme? A lot of isolation exercises for peripheral muscles. Tires you quickly, but I don't think it helps burn fat as fast as heavy compound exercises.
Maybe you should refer to Darklight 79. I think he did circuit training when he first started out.

What time do you go to the gym? For me, after workout... I feel relaxed and tired, and I can sleep better. Wonder why you get hyped instead.
Didn't cool down after exercise? Not drinking enough water? Perhaps some stretching might help?

30% body fat, some more want to bulk? Maybe you should get it to below 20% first, before you think about bulking.
You could add muscle mass while reducing fat with a proper routine.

You don't need weight gainers, that is for thin people. Just buy the whey. If you still want a weight gainer, mix the whey with oats and glucose or maltodextrin.

Some good info here:
http://stronglifts.com <--This is a good start. Tonnes of good info. You might want to use its 5x5 routine too.
http://simplefit.org

I don't know much but I'm led to understand that your inability to sleep can be fixed with melatonin. Also increase your food intake esp. protein and fats. More vitamins would be good for you too. Eat more fruits. In fact, eat more of everything. Anyway, nutrition isn't my interest. I can't be bothered to describe much.

Anyway, my thoughts about your coach.


Let's first analyze your routine;

From the way you write, it seems you wanna look "tighter". More "Abercrombie and Fitch'ish"

First, if you don't want to pay for a good coach or can't find one, read about a few important things.

- Compound movements (Squat, deadlift, benchpress)
- Proper nutrition
- What a true "circuit" training is and the purpose of it (It's closer to emulate the conditions close to the environment that a fighter goes through)


So if anybody says, "Chest pec bagus, boleh bina cleavage kat dada", take the lightest dumbbell you can find and place it between their teeth.

This is just roughly written. I'm discussing something with a sprinting coach. No time, no timeee

This post has been edited by pizzaboy: Apr 4 2009, 08:07 AM

For now I'll just answer your first question, I will try to deal with the 'routine' later on.

Of course, there are obvious factors that could result in you not sleeping well at night, so I won't go into that. Let's assume you're eating and resting properly, and your sleeping problems are not because you are stressed about work or personal matters.

If you have the time, do read this link:

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=92371&tid=55

Circuit training can be strenuous on the cardiac system as well, furthermore, you're increasing it from 1 set to 2 sets, so obviously there is going to be a lot of strain. Circuit training with weights usually result in a trainee working at a very high heart rate as you enter the anaerobic zone. Working too hard and too long in this heart zone does have its issues, as you can see from the article:



The measurements in the article are based on the OmegaWave system, long story short, it allows a comprehensive view into the working of the heart.

Chances are, you're not ready for 2 sets. And as pizzaboy mentioned, weighted circuit training with so many exercises are more suitable for fighters getting ready for a fight. If you've done some sort of martial arts before, you would understand. For the average person however, there is no need, and in fact could be harmful if you continue to work in those high heart rates.

Thank you, guys, for yr advice and comments. Really appreciate it.
Sorry for this late response to all the above input, been busy on the weekend.

Nway guys, just wanted to clarify a few things;

I work-out right after work, around 6pm. It takes me about 1hr 30mins to complete the whole session. (Including warm-up, stretching, etc). So no, it's not right before sleeping. I'll usually be home at around 8pm.

As for goals, the full story is I did as much research as I could before I joined this gym. And like I said, I had set a short term goal. Which was to bulk up as much muscle as possible from March till June (12 weeks) and start cutting/loosing fat from July till November. (In fact, before I started, I stocked up on a 6lb tub of Mass Gainer, a bottle of Creatine, and a bottle of Glutamine.) In short, I guess u can say, I had it all planned.
(FYI guys, yes, I did tell 'my couch' about these goals of mine the very first day I walked into that gym.)

Enter "my couch", and the whole thing went a different direction.

*I'm trying to be very careful with my words because I believe that since I'm a relative newbie at this, my 'knowledge' is no comparison to that of an experienced BB like 'my coach', and I try my very best to respect his 'ways'. However, as you all have read, I'm experiencing a few "technicalities" that just made me more confused.

Nway, long story short, by the time I'm done with my session, I'm feeling really3x beat. Giddy, almost.

I've asked him why I'm not doing split routines, he says that "If u cant take this stuff for 3mths, than dont even think about BB (split routines) because that is alot more tougher shit.", which kind of sounded logic la, in a way.

I'd love to do some compound excersizes, but he wont let me touch anything else outside this Ciruit Training. Tried it once, wanted to do some barbell bench pressess, got a 30min lecture by him about me not listening to him, etc.

It's all very confusing. I've tried to do my homework. My general (and limited) knowledge tells me that I should do split routines, on alternate days. (So that 1. My body gets enough rest etc. and 2. I dont get bored.)

But 'my coach', who is an experienced BB, tells me that I should do a full body workout aka Circuit Training on alternate days. It's been a month. It's very tiring. I'm not the type to b**** about a little pain. But I want to make sure this this is truly the right path. To be fair to him, I believe there is some slight definition in my physique now, but I cant be sure if its also because of all the supplements I take.

Btw, everyone that joins his gym is required to do his Circuit Training routine. After 3mths or so, he'll let u do his BB rountines.

Comments, guys?

Jay,

I do agree that beginner should start with full body workout before doing split routines. Am not gonna discuss why though, google it urself first.

On the other hand, I do not agree with the exercise routine that u are currently at. As pizzaboy stated, the arrangement is totally haywire.

In my opinion, routines should always start with compound exercises that target the big muscles (chest, legs and Back). Then comes the rest and isometric exercises.

If muscle mass is what u want, compound exercises is the way to go. There are existing routines out there which u may follow. Google for Ripptoe and MaxOT.

Oh yeah, I guess I should add that I want to bulk up because I've never had much of a chest and my shoulders are a bit rounded (not that wide). Mainly wanted to focus on improving these two aspects, before i go to the cutting phase.

I believe I'm an Endo/Meso. I'm a bit chubby right now (I think) but I believe that I can lose weight/fat if and when I put my mind to it.

I used to do competitive Taekwondo (state representative) when I was in school and Uni, so weight loss was part and parcel of my training way back then. It also explains why I never had much of a chest and shoulder; not much attention on those bodyparts. (Plz dont flame me for this, I'm not trying to show off or anything. I just want to explain that I believe that I have the discipline to do what ever it takes, but I want to do it right.)

So, can/should I just follow what "my coach" says, or should I try (somehow) to do normal split routines? I dont want to waste time doing something thatss not suitable for my goals.

So fellas, looking forward to your response on this, and thanks again. Cheers.

*Supposed to go to the gym today, but whole body is still a bit sore from last Friday's workout...

When I just started, I do only machines and I do leg, chest and back daily.

Push and pull will work on your bicep and tricep, so you'll still gain some from the machines.

First off, old school'ers have a tendency of being very "concrete" towards what they did. And we all know what happens when you don't move with innovation and time.

My point here is, as time goes by, better methods will be found or designed. You can choose to be a prisoner of your own mindset, or move along with time and develop a better physique, faster, strong, in a shorter time and with more effectiveness. I decided to move and from a 3x10 squat routine, I've moved to a more suitable method for my goals but this method will CHANGE and EVOLVE as my body adapts.

It truly is as simple as that.

If your "coach" so he calls himself, question his logic for his insanely uncoordinated workout. It's completely ....like I said, haywire. I'll pit you against (no disrespect) 5 guys that I've trained recently. You'll see their progress in 3 months, and then yours with your coach's "powderful" method. Then you tell me, you didn't waste 3 months. I've that much confidence and I think the members here will back me up on that.

am i one of the 5 guys?
wont disappoint u coach. hahahha...
i just increased my deadlift to 130kg. could have done 140kg if not coz of some idiot in the gym
this is my 4th time doing deadlift . kaka

This post has been edited by pizzaboy: Apr 7 2009, 12:00 AM

Forgot to mention,
You might be burned out from that crazy routine too. Might be time to take a 1 week rest. Or at least deload.

Go have fun with whatever exercise you fancy for that rest week. Just keep it light and fun.

If not, you might fall sick like me last time. Didn't deload... then was sick like hell.

I was thinking about this while showering this morning - and was reminiscing the times when i was a gym noobie. Here are my 2 sen :

1) The reason why the coach had him do circuit training was to condition his body for it, most importantly the endurance level. And it's not even strenuous since he's only doing them 1x12. TS, you have to remember that circuit training is not about weights or strength. Hence no need to go all out while circuiting - once you do ur splits then lift ur heart out.

2) The reason why circuit training is done as such is because it's meant to give you overall body workout (hence the switching from non-related muscles to the next). While you're resting your legs, work on ur triceps etc.

3) Another good reason for this is to teach you how to 'feel' ur muscles. Some people do bench press to end up with a sore tricep the next day (I know I did). It's good to start on machines first - less margin for error. Once you start to know how to listen to your body, den u can move on to other "hardcore" stuff

You guys hv to realize that most of you didnt start with commercial gyms - you lift weights on ur own, hence a good base. For a new newbie, I'd say that the coach is doing the right thing. You cant do weights with bad fitness level - it will just tax your heart more.

Cheers

1. I had the same thoughts as well, thinking he wants to condition the trainee's body. But then I noticed a problem.

IF you were to condition your body, you don't bring it through so many different exercises. You select a few important ones that hit large muscle groups. This way you are able to do more work in a shorter period of time, if the purpose is for general conditioning. This method also enables you to handle more weight and tax the heart and muscles more than merely a few target areas. Also when you give a trainee machines to work with first before moving to the free weights, you program their kinesthesis skills wrongly and when they hit the free weights, they will be confused on the right method.

2. I Also when he planned the lat pulldown, pec deck, shoulder press in pretty much a line, then he jumped to a different variety, I really don't see a system to it.

3. This is a good point. I never actually thought of this. Shall note this down.

I think the best is to wait for him to ask his coach what is the logic behind his method. I may have overlooked a few.

1. okay. based on argument @ point 3, pls name me a good compound exercise that can be done with a machine

2. I agree that the plan is a lil tunggang langgang. mebbe because the machines are next to each other?
1. Tricep
2. Calf
3. Quads
4. ..er.. chest?
5. ..er.. obliques?
6. Lats
7. Delts
8. Abs
9. Pec
10. Back
11. Hammies
12. Biceps

Exactly. There isn't one. I didn't say anything about using machines to do a compound movement. I was more inclined to suggest using light barbells or even empty ones or perhaps dumbbells instead. Uses more stabilization, more skills needed

Syd G, apparently, they are.

And I totally agree with pizzaboy when he says that as time goes by, new and improved methods of doing things surface, and there are reason they exist.

At the same time, I also agree with Syd G's point No 3.

*I did some reading up, and from what I understand, Circuit Training is generally used for body conditioning. It's generally done with attention to repetitions (15-20reps), at a light to medium weight. And is more appropriate for the cutting phase. (Plz correct me if I'm wrong). *Did I mention I wanted to pack on some muscle?

However, my coach's Circuit Training seems to deviate a bit from this norm.

First of all, in his own words, "If u can do 13reps of that weight, the weight is too light. It must be a weight where u can do 12reps MAX, whereby the last rep is to 'everything-u-got' failure."

Secondly, I only did 1 x 12 on the first week. And 1 x 12 was actually quite easy for me. No problem finishing it in 30mins. No problem sleeping at night. I suppose after seeing that 1 x 12 wasnt very taxing for me, he decided that I should be pushed to the next level. (In fact, 1 x 12 doest make me sore...)
So, from week two, it was 2 x 12. 12reps max.
So basically, it's 24 excersizes at 12reps max. If at anytime I am able to do any of those excersizes in more than 12reps, I must increase the weight. So, by the time i'm finished with set 2, I'm feel like I just did a 1hr 30m marathon. (To be honest, I think the Quad and Hamstring excersizes are the ones that really take alot of energy out of me).

Like I said, I'll take the pounding, if that's what it takes. But my (albeit limited) knowledge of weight training and my inability to sleep well afterwards tells me a different story.

Your thoughts, gentleman?

This post has been edited by jayElliot: Apr 7 2009, 12:50 PM

There were two times when I felt like I couldn't sleep.

One was when I was powerlifting and trying to hit a 200KG deadlift and the other was when I had a HUGE technical problem with my snatch. (Used to snatch 95, dropped to 60 also can't go up)
Now training's a joy again (except the squats....I still don't like squatting but I do it)

Both of these times, aren't good times. Body fails, mind fails. Very effed up.

Hell if I was your coach, I'd at this moment quickly teach you the right technique and grind it right in, and then milk your newbie gains before it stalls instead of making you run around a bunch of machines and condition yourself.

TS, did you happen to drink tonnes of coffee or on a particular supplement before a workout?

I take some apple juice added with 5g of pure creatine 30mins before i leave for the gym. Occasionally add 2pcs of wholemeal bread (with butter, for taste). That's all.

I only take 1 cup of coffee in the morning.

What's your overall diet like?

And your day/nite activities? What stresses you out?

Overall diet;

Breakfast: 1 (sometimes 2) bowl of milk and cereal, and 2 eggs. Coffee.

Lunch: Usual white rice with 1 pc chicken, beef, and veg.

Afternoon snack: White bread toast, or Whey Protein (Depends what I'm doing and where I am at the time).

GYM (mon, tues, fri) Whey + L-Glutamine post workout.

Dinner: White rice, with veg and chicken/lean beaf etc.

Supper (before bed): Whey Protein (with 5g of L-Glutamine) with milk or some wholemeal bread.

This is the usual routine for me. Of course might deviate abit but this roughly how it is most days of the week.

Oh, and I'm a light smoker, 10 sticks a day, max.

I sleep around 12midnight everyday.
I have late-night outtings only once a month.

What stressess me out? Uh, I need mo' money.? Or maybe it's my dead-end job, but hey, everyone has one of those. ;-)

I dont think the problem is in my diet (even though I know it's less than perfect), nor any stress related factor. I used to lift weights in my ill-equiped condo gym before this, futsal as well, and I had no problems sleeping. I only have problems sleeping on the night I go to my gym. On rest days, sleep is fine.

Stop smoking. That will help although not easy to do, I know. It will make you feel better.

And try to sleep before 11 pm. Sleeping earlier will help in the long run.

As for the diet, just wondering if you had enough "fuel" for your intense activity. Or whether it was too carbo heavy as opposed to not enough protein. Too much carbo may make you feel the lethargy of having too much sugar. But you have to get one of the BBers to help you out on that one as I'm not sure on the proportion for BBers.

Went to the gym yesterday.
6.15-7.45pm.

Did the usual 2x12 shit.
Couldnt sleep till 1.30 am.
Had to take sleeping pills.

Feel like getting a paintball marker and giving 'my coach' a headshot...

Err... dude, don't you think it's wise to reduce the intensity/volume for a short time?
I seriously suggest you take a break. Do whatever exercise you want to try for that week. It's a bit scary that the issue is dragging on and on. That 'coach' dude of yours knows about the sleeping issue?

My coach said there's two things you could do about this. Replace your training time to an earlier time. Drop the intensity.

I was one of them. My problem was extreme intensity. Trained like an insane dog in the evening, only to stare at the wall for hours. Then awakening at 4AM and sleeping all over the house in 15 minutes intervals. I could NOT sleep.
This continued until my coach noticed a downward pattern in my training. I have box-cleaned 120KG at that time that dropped to 105KG. I had a front squat of 145KG that dropped to 130KG feeling heavy as shit. Then I broke my training into 9 sessions a week instead. Evening sessions were very strength based, morning sessions were more powerful. (I'm more of a strength than power man)

In the end, everytime I had a morning session, my evening sessions would be much stronger. I would power snatch up to 75KG's in the morning and manage a 140KG x 3 x 3 front squat in the evening after clean and jerks to a max single.

Sorry guys. Was a bit cranky yesterday.
Last night, sleep was fine, so feeling normal today.

iamyuanwu, yes, I've told him about it. He probably never went through it, because he looked perplexed after I told him, and he said that I wasnt eating enough and that I'm "not strong".

But whatever it is, I guess you guys are right; I should drop the intensity. As for training time, I cant really do anything about that, coz it's right after work.

Today is gym day again for me. I'll see how it goes...

jay : can I give you some girlie-type of advice?

-Soak in a hot water bath to relax your muscles. If not bath, take a hot shower. If no hot water, boil water, put into bucket and mix with cold water - use tong to have the old-fashioned type of shower. The hot water will relax your muscles.
-Go for a gentle massage for some relaxation.

Sounds like you're not having fun.

Any small gym at Ttdi, Bu, Du, Dj area?

come over to wow fitness ttdi. that's where i work out. it's above a mamak restaurant.

ah.. what is the rate for walk in (not joining member)?

How often you work out there?

Many people?

rm 10 per walk-in. the crowd depends on when you go. if after work >6pm usually it is packed like sardines. best to go a few hours after the gym opens or before the gym closes. they have specialized times for women too but i'm not exactly when.

i try to work out there at least days a week.

This post has been edited by internaldisputes: Nov 22 2017, 05:40 PM

OH.. Maybe I can try there go morning before start work. Need to check if they already open at 7++am

There is no personal trainer there right? As I am newbie..

Ah.. Got women session. Means guys will have their own sessions and women their own sessions la.. Cannot wash eye. Haha..

i do not know why your coach suggested that routine. too much isolation work. maybe it suits him, but not you. 3-day per week for full body workout is good, but where are the compounds (squat/benchpress/deadlift/chinups)?

at your current bodyweight (sounds like a skinny-fat profile), you shouldn't bulk up first. do a recomp (or slight cut if needed) while gaining strength. after a few months, then do a lean bulk (approx 500cals surplus) and do a progressive overload. muscle will grow and belly/lovehandles will go away (slowly).

and forget about mass gainers. you dont need it.

cant sleep? seems like your adrenaline rush is still running. probably the routine doesnt tire you. you should be able to sleep well when you are tired.