First off I'll tell you your friend's biggest problem may be the ROUTINE.

• Haha, it is, i've tried to get him to listen to me, but he wont. Maybe i'll outlift him someday...

Like I said and I'll say it again, it's illogical to leave your body to digits and numbers. Can your body be at 100% daily? No. Will it stay at merely 70% daily? No. Seize the days when you can hit 100% and back off but push for more on the days you're only 80%. Ur at 80%? Push for 85%. Push for 90%. You can leave this to percentages but I go with feel

Remember when scientists used to say;

1. Routine is bad. When your body's used to it, it stops working.
2. 80% of your maxes and above is one of the best ways to increase strength with 1-3 reps.
3. This came from Ivan Abejidev (can't he get an easier to spell name?). Animals work at 100% only. We're animals. We should work at 100%.

• I hear this one a lot. And for the most part, agree with you.... but... (you knew that was coming...) i have over the years, devised and revised my own program, a powerlifting one keep in mind, that has gone against this idea and succeeded rather well. My program is a very basic 5x10/5x5/3x3 peaking program that adds 5lbs a session till you peak. I wont describe it here, takes way too much time. But what i've found is that if you can REALLY bring your out-ov-gym life under control and really focus, you CAN be at 100% nearly all the time, and the times you are not will still be about 97%+ (100% all the time basically means you DONT have bad workouts... when it comes to my important sessions, i NEVER have bad workouts. Bad workouts plague most lifters, even serious or veteran champion ones, but not me). Now, it works well with most lifters, the more patient and attuned to detail, the better it works (i'm inhumanly patient). I always gain huge off it, the only downside being it can take forever to finish, even 4-5 months. If you do everything right, you'd be surprised how many consecutive sessions you can hit at 100% intensity (not talking 100% ov 1RM here, i'm talking being able to do what you set out to do). Anyways, also going against the 'routine is bad' theory, i've been doing it for three years now and my progress on the lifts i use it on has been pretty much linear.

BUT... that being said, i agree with what you've said, and think its time i broke from my routine (same routine for three years! it continues to work and well, but three years!) and tried something new. If the worst happens, i wont gain as much, but will learn something new when i go back to it. But i think it will work.

I believe in Abajiev's animal theory as well, its just the practice ov it that needs tweaking... We're animals yes, but we've not ACTED like animals for tens ov thousands ov years. Genetics can lose something in a couple ov generations, let alone an ice-age or two...

I'll show you why the Chinese did achieve all the above requirements.

1. They have HUGE variety that contribute directly to the classic movements.

2. All their strength works are even above 90% and pushed for even more than 1 rep. If you can get stronger at 1 rep with 200KG, what does 4 reps with 200KG make you? Even STRONGER.

3. Okay, so we're not doing 100% all the time. But we did ATTEMPT to hit 100% of our day. So we tried thrice and fucked up the extension, the lockout and we swinged once. We did exert maximal power to the bar though. Then we dropped to 90% and did four sets of triples. Now is that not working pretty darned close to the maximal the body can do? That's not 100% in weights, but 100% in EFFORT. Abejidev said EFFORT, not WEIGHTS. Hell that's 105% in effort.

• On point #1, do they do this for the same reasons that Westside Barbell /Louie Simmons does it? Instead ov maxing out on the comp lifts every session, they max out on a different (but lift-specific) exercise every session, thus stave off overtraining or CNS burnout. Is this the reasoning behind the Chinese doing this? or is it simply working weaknesses?

On point #3, the ability to fail in training and put aside the ego is a big plus, many here do not have it. They dont like to miss lifts or fail so they cut the intensity short. I check my ego at the door when i lift. I've got caught up in it at times (refusing to hit a programmed number, etc.), and those are the rare times i hurt myself. It rarely happens anymore. BUT... is failing at 100% over and over a good idea? Might that help ingrain things that dont work? That aside, failing at 100% still counts in the way a negative would, yes? speaking in a purely strength way.

Let's take Lu Yong;

180KG Snatch max. 162KG x 4 x 3 @ 90% effort. U tried snatching 90% max for 4 triples? You tell me that isn't 105% effort.

Even your powerlifter bencher reeled in the advantage of this method (sorta). Why shouldn't you? Why shouldn't he?

I did just that a few weeks ago, was doing 8 heavy triples every session and near the end was at 90+ for at least the last four sets (hit 90%+ for triples, heavier triples every week, for weeks on end). Those sessions kicked the living shit outta me, but i put up a pretty big PR shortly after. I just reapplied the same technique, but for doubles, and put up a big snatch PR a week ago. Lots ov work...

And yes, like i've said, the working up to a very heavy single or even new 1RM as a warm-up, then backing off to do the work sets at whatever set/rep scheme has been on my mind for a while now. I think the daily max single keeps the CNS tuned and the body used to heavier weights than a program that might have you lifting light for a time. The only downside is possible overtraining.

Its kinda ironic that this is how i've been training any new lifters that come in for the last few months. Well before we even had this conversation. I've been wanting to do it on myself.

-----------------------

Well think about it, on the question of technique and fatigue.

If you DON'T have anymore strength, you have to MAXIMIZE the power of your hips, quads, calves and traps for the extension. You have to acclerate like Sonic the Hedgehog to catch the bar underneath. This requires? Technique. Take this example. Get a n00b to snatch 40KG for a triple, but make sure he's ultra strong (stronger than you) . Then you go snatch 40KG for a triple. Who looks like he's knocking on hell's door? I'll say that other guy stronger than you will. Why?

He's using the wrong muscles. He'll pull with his arms, he'll jump and struggle to catch the bar. This way, chances are he'll even use his arms and pull the bar back in. You have better technique. You'll easily do better. Trust me my friend, if arms had anything to do with the snatch, people wouldn't snatch more with straps. You don't know this, but in 2000, my coach had a friend at 56KG that snatched 147KG with straps. Why is this so? It's cuz his arms are relaxed, they're not interfering the movement and cutting short the acceleration.

• Hmmm... so you're suggesting i should pre-exhaust myself to see where my technique really is? I've had some interesting sessions where i was beat to death from the previous day, and lifted with surprising form. Also interesting was when i did my recent snatch PR ov 116 i was already well past my usual number ov heavy sets, and was already thinking (on the previous 113 PR set) about calling it a day. That 116 was the very first time i'd full snatched more than my power snatch. I was pretty surprised. I was beat, but the form kinda took over and i got under it. Got even lower on the next two 118 attempts, but i think by then i was completely wrecked.

I said i was gonna back off my snatches for a couple weeks to get my bloody health back, but already i'm feeling a bit guilty about slacking off. I may have to change my plan again...

Okay, some say it's a conditioning of the body. Powerlifter wasn't conditioned, you were.

Fine. Let's use your own body. Take 100KG and squat. Your usual good technique squat. Now, a bad technique one. Squeeze your traps upwards, squeeze your arms and overarch your lower back, pull your shoulder blades together, point your head sky high. Not so easy anymore right? You're using all the wrong muscles.

1. Technique was perfected to make something easier.
2. Fatigue causes you to be unable to exert unnecessary muscles. You have to rely on the right ones to explode properly. So how does this happen at fatigue? How the crap do you lift 214KG's overhead after 5 lifts? Perfect technique+practice. Only that will help you when your muscles are out of ATP already. Btw, Rybakov's chance of winning @ 85KG was actually quite slim. The Chinese already knew about his phenomenal snatches and great CNJ's. But Lu Yong IS the BEST 85KG'er IN China. His lifts are usually 5/6 or 6/6. He NEVER gets less than that. Lu Yong has done 220KG's CNJ's in training quite a few times.

• Again, i see your point, but the issue is one ov being able to do this for an extended period ov time and not overtrain. I've got a huge session tomorrow; PR bench, plus a heavy front squat session, more PR bench and then some more back and arms. The upper body stuff is just me finishing off a long-awaited goal ov mine, but the day after i'll C&J heavy again, then the day after i'll hit some heavy snatches and back squat again (thats my 'light' heavy squat day), and all that will be no problem. Then a day off and start again. The problem that will arise (if one does) is that the next week i'll still be pretty beat from this week. Then the week after... Staving off overtraining and subsequent injury is the key to all this high-intensity stuff. Now... how to do THAT...???

The key to making this new doctrine work will be recovery. I simply need better recovery than i have now.

Perfect technique = Right muscle usage=Power
Chinese always say, technique is the most important. With right technique, you develop speed because you're confident. Speed X mass=Power. Take for example Tanger Sagir. Turkish team only does FS+CNJ+Snatch. I won't use him as perfect example of good technique but his method suits him. He's weak off the floor. He almost looks like he's deadlifting his snatches and cleans. Extends his pull and presses his teleport button which I think is under his shoe, and teleports under the bar to catch it. That's technique. And then seizes the stretch reflex, and bounces up.

Also Chinese believe that if you cannot maintain good technique if you're tired, that'd show that you lack practice and skill. And Chinese, STRONG? C'mon. We're Asians for god's sakes. We're genetically smaller and weaker than 90% of Europeans. If we didn't perfect technique, we don't have an edge anymore.
Why do you think almost all Chinese lifters technique looks almost perfectly similar ?

• Yeah, you can watch the Chinese training videos and see they are big on technique. But (and believe me i'm NOT making excuses here) the Chinese, like you said, ARE Asians... they have an inhuman work ethic, one that even shames the Europeans (the Europeans that work that is). They can create these environments where everyone toils in pain for most hours ov the day and realistically expect people to actually show up and do it. I am very unlike North Americans in that i dont share their work ethic. Here we have a good work ethic, but its different. It involves finding the easiest way to do a job. Give the job to a lazy man and see what he comes up with (please reference multi-ply powerlifting for the perfect example...). Everywhere else on the planet however will see what needs to be done, the RIGHT way to do it (not necessarily the easiest quickest way), and they'll just do it. They'll work till it is done. I am like that, and honestly, it makes me at odds with everyone around me. Asians have an edge in this way, but they are NOT lacking in strength. They may be smaller, but then they dominate the smaller weight classes. Do they do well at Worlds Strongest Man? No... you have to be 300lbs + to do that shit, but weightlifting...??? Powerlifting...???

And the Chinese would be right about the failing technique under exhaustion... i am both (relatively) unpracticed and unskilled. My form doesn't fall apart under fatigue terribly, but i only attribute that to my mental focus. I think ov weightlifting as another form ov martial art. I only discovered this stuff less than two years ago... i'm probably as practiced as the average 10yr old boy at a Chinese training school.

----------------------

My vote on your routine.
Do what you think suits you.

Find your reps.
I'm a four repper. That's what my coach calls me. I can go 90% of my max, 3 reps and still smile. 4th rep, my face looks like I just pooped Hossain Rezazedah out. So if I can break 4 reps, that's it. I've improved something. If I can hit 130KG X 5 x 4, I've hit a new FS 1RM PR for sure or my leg just lost 1% of thighfat to show another vein down my buttocks.

• Thats an interesting way to put it. I'd have to experiment to find that. Till now, my rep schemes have always been in flux. But the last few years most ov my strength specific rep work has been either three or five. Hmmm...

Then weights.
If you can hit 90% of your max last week, don't you DARE give yourself an excuse not to hit it this week. If you somehow found an excuse to drop it to 85 or 80%, you increase the reps to torture your body a bit.

You might regret as you get older, but I don't care. I have one life. I either do something I love with it, and pay good money for a massage theraphist and knee reconstruction or live my entire life, average. Ah our national head coach, Coach Lin did the same till the age of 32 and he's still squatting at 44. I'll probably be safe.

• Heh... well, you HAVE the money for a massage therapist... i cant even afford my protein powder half the time... Seriously, we get NO help from anyone doing strength sports. Nothing. In fact, like i said before, we are typically discouraged at near every turn for doing anything uncomfortable or (heh heh, get this...) doing something that MAKES SOMEONE ELSE UNCOMFORTABLE... EVEN WATCHING... Its a western sickness, a particularly disgusting one.

So, the only excuses might be that the body may break if i do what i want to do. I'm kinda choked because the trainer that started me out five years ago in powerlifting was pretty conservative, and thought like a typical powerlifter (squat once a week, thats enough, work out 3-4 times a week max), so i got really big and strong doing lazy schemes. Two years ago i had no work capacity, and have spent the last year and some doing the (personally modified) Russian squat program back to back to build it up. I'm still nowhere as hardy as that sadist coach's lifters, or Asian lifters, and i'm pissed because if i'd started lifting somewhere else, i would be. I dont know why its so hard to build that up and retrain myself.

Hold on, reps don't hurt as long as you maintain contraction.
----------------------

Okay, on rest time, I finish it quick because it's very humid here. I live around the equator and I think the sun is so hot, it dries my brains which explains why I can't understand my bloody Advanced Maths Sect.3 paper. I think math is just created by aliens to destroy earth and all math scientists are childs of those aliens.

Another thing is your brain is only able to be active and sharp for 1 hour. So you have to squeeze as much as work as possibl before it starts to fizz out. Then after that, you've to concentrate on keeping your lifts solid. That's tiring. So do it quick if you can. I really can't figure how I can train 3 hours in the evening sometimes, but I think it's thanks to my mental conditioning. Bulgarians wait till their heartbeat hits 110 BPM or something. Mine may still be at 120BPM and I've already finished the next set. In Chinese, it's called "Ie Gu Zhik" Translated directly...you'll die laughing so I'll modify it. "Grab the "chi" and complete it"

• Haha, translate it directly then... I'll take my chances with death...

I hear that a lot here too. "You should be in and out in 45-60 minutes." Well... i've gone back to that one more than once... doesn't work for me. I've proven i can do marathon death sessions and survive (THAT kind ov work capacity i have in spades), i can crank squat, bench and deadlift PR,s and still have energy for upper back and arms... an hour alone ov arms mind you... 5hr sessions were not uncommon for me not too long ago... I've just got to transform that stamina into shorter sessions but every consecutive day kind ov stamina. I bet if i cut out the bench and heavy squats i could lift every day heavy, then over time phase in heavier and heavier squats till i was training like a freak.

You bring up an interesting point though... Chi. I've been very interested in martial arts for half my life now, the philosophy and strategic aspects as much or more than the actual physical aspects. So i'm aware ov chi and what it is, means, etc. Do you bring chi into lifting? If so, is it utilized like it is in martial arts? Its practically unexplainable to most westerners, so used against them (in lifting as well as in fighting) it could be a great advantage. What place does it have in lifting?

Once again, we're keeping to Abejidev theory of 100% effort. And another thing you'll learn with this. I call it the perfect mental focus. It's cuz you've fought so hard against your mind saying "No, I'm not ready" that you've trained it well. So when you're lifting a heavy weight, the mind says "I'm not ready" but the body just blocks that out.

• Thats right along the lines ov something i've told people, whether in training or not, over the years... Animals do not think... they just DO. There is no 'can i? cant i?' no 'am i ready?' or will i get hurt?' there is only jump, attack, flee, chase. DO DO DO DO. Our ability to think has replaced our physical prowess with the ability to invent things that do it for us, and we've become weak. The question remains: how do i get back to the animal power? Is it even possible? I can look at a 20ft roof and tell myself with absolute unerring mental focus 'just jump up there'... doesn't mean i'll make it...

I've theorized that the occasional 'freak' we stumble across in lifting... you know that newb your size that C&J'd your 4-year max the first time he touched a barbell? Case in point: Benchfreak on this forum, who i train. No matter what you do, who trains you or how hard you'll work, as long as he does SOME kind ov intelligent work he'll always outlift you. This is the kind ov guy who has potential to make world champion or olympic champ should he try. Anyways... that 'freak' is probably just closer to the neanderthal than the rest ov us. He's a few generations less removed from the ancestors who hadn't yet invented an easier life. Its a nice theory anyways...

----------------------

On your issue with the lack of space, I never actually said a SPECIFIC sort of jump in a SPECIFIC place.
Go sprint up a slight incline. Go do frog jumps with maximal explosion whenever and wherever you can. Stop when you're slowing down and cannot do anything to acclerate fast anymore. That doesn't require a box. Heck if you really want a box, go to your nearest car junkyard and jump on those cars. Should be a great workout too. Creativity my friend. Go jump on your stairs and down and repeat that. Careful not to fall though. A stadium, awesome place. Run up and down the stairs. Find those blocks where you can jump stable on and jump up. When coming down, leap and try to land on your toes without your heels touching the floor.

• Heh... i own five big cars... i wouldn't have to leave my yard... But yeah, i see what you mean. I just like quantifying things i do, it easier to note improvement. Thus the use ov apparatus. I found a bunch ov stackable cardio blocks upstairs in my gym, they get sketchy over three feet, but thats fun in a way too. I used to do platform jumps with those, easy to see progress as they go up in 2" increments.
----------------------

MY coach quit training in 2006, because he knew he wouldn't be able to compete. In China, if your coach's relations with the top coaches suck (they've many coaches there) your chances are cut significantly. My coach's coach, can't even talk properly. He can compete wonderfully, but he can't talk. He can teach, but in competitions, he's more nervous than his own lifters. It's a lil more "political" there. I'll show you a 180KG CNJ in a few weeks time by my coach. He says he'll get it soon to show them it isn't all about steroids. This is 180KG @ 69KG by a guy that's barely trained past 160KG'S in his pulls and squats twice a month.

• Hah! If he moved here he'd be a national hero in the sport.

-------------------

Small talk. We had a Bulgarian (8 national team lifters protested his appointment as head coach. Coach Lin was thankfully reinstated) who forced one of our lifters to snatch his max 21x because he missed it 20x. Is that going to help you progress? Hell he can't even exert force anymore to the bar. If he had dropped just 5-10% and did 4 doubles or triples and got every rep, wouldn't that be better?

• Well, if thats something he does often, then it seems a bit off. But the occasional shake-up ov ones routine (you gotta admit, even for you who shun basic routines, THAT session was probably a good shock to the system, and made everything else you do look more 'routine'), can be beneficial. The local coach here i mentioned before, the 'sadist' with the beast lifters, once made his star pupil, a 69kg girl who's medaled at nationals retry her jerk PR 20 times. She never did get it that time, but i guarantee she came away from that session stronger (after she'd healed...). But its not something he does often.

I dont know... sometimes severe shit like that works. Evan, who coaches me occasionally once tried his snatch PR at the club and missed. He tried five more times after that and missed. He got his seventh attempt. Now, we'd NEVER pull that shit in powerlifting... but then again, powerlifting is decidedly weaker than it was twenty years ago. There used to be the same crazy work ethic there before all the gear came along. Back then, strong lifters LOOKED like strong people. Today you can watch powerlifting worlds and see many lifters who dont even look like they lift much. And this aint weightlifting... size DOES matter in powerlifting. I bet twenty years ago they used to train more like weightlifters...

Do tell me if you disagree on anything. I'm sharing this so I can learn as well. I've only learned 40% of what my coach taught me. He taught me a lot, the rest I researched, analyzed and figured myself. This is 40% and I think it's possibly enough to train one country's lifter to be Olympic level. I wonder what's the other 60% my coach hasn't taught me yet.

• This is all very interesting. Excuse the essay answers, i hate how the internet makes everyone terse and misunderstandings are a way ov life. I like to be clear.

So true! I noticed this at the last Olympics when that Chinese dude won. I find that Westerners tend to be more rotund whereas the Chinese are a bit more solid.

I gave up trying to lift the heaviest weight a long time ago. I'm stronger than ever but I still look like poorly made tofu. Right now it's all about Form + Technique > Weights.

What the hell.....I thought I deleted this..
It's a discussion between a Canadian coach and I....whoops...

Ah I'll leave it here then.

---

Added on April 7, 2009, 10:59 amWhat the hell.....I thought I deleted this..
It's a discussion between a Canadian coach and I....whoops...

Ah I'll leave it here then.

This post has been edited by pizzaboy: Apr 7 2009, 10:59 AM

Dude. Are you on crack or something?

i was thinking the same. =.=
he so free write a freaking long essay.
took me 10-15 min just to read it.

It's actually very VERY interesting to me. A bit complex but then I thought I'd just share it here.

no doubt its interesting. =.=
haha... i think it took u an hour or so to write it. =.=
thanks for sharing.

Very Free, go get a job

Why don't you consider writing articles and get paid for it? Or even put a donation button?

myremi wants to buy ur article kirk.
write one long one and sell it to her. =.=
she kindly donates. haha...

well, i dont think its easy to sell since there are plenty of professionals having free articles online. =.=

It's a good article - just sounds funny cause it sounded as if you're ranting to yourself (like you always do when nobody's around )

This post has been edited by Syd G: Apr 7 2009, 01:52 PM

Good stuff.
But it didn't quite sound like Pizzaboy. It's as if he is on some anti-depressant drugs and the mind is floating in a semi-calm/sub-conscious state.

But spelling mistake: all the 'of' became 'ov'. Side effect of the drugs?

I'm nt the one that typed those sentences with "OV" for "OF"
That's the coach that I was discussing with. He just does that. Those with a "." is the other guy.

No offense to Pizza, but that post is wayyy too long to read through. Could someone with more patience highlight/summarize the key points in all that?