Dear sifu,

What is there proper way to clean and eliminate the white mold/fungus on the nesting plank ??
Is there any dedicated cleaning agent for this purpose ?
How to clean it without making the spore gets air borne ? Using a damp clothe to wipe it ?
Mold/fungus can be harmful to some allergic sensitive person if inhaled.

Hi Raymond,

Please proceed as per sifu WW advised, so we, all newbies in here, can learn from your project as it progresses too.

Someone with formula on it may wish to answer this as this problem has been with us for a long time as long as we are using the Taiwanese humidifiers and the humidity must be high and temperature warm...excellent for fungus growing, too.

As for me, nowaday, I use a steel brush to clean the plank which is not the best way but I don't know of any perfect method of cleaning fungus off the planks.

By the way, I don't know if the spores are harmful or not but then, I must have inhaled alot by now and I am still OK and the recent Med C is still good. Better safe than regret later so best if someone has a solution for it.

Maybe, we have new inventors here wishing to do research into this as there are money to be made here but it must be safe for the swiftlet and that the swiftlets must love the anti fungus solution......otherwise, I rather leave it as it is and lots of nests activities. My personal opinion on the matter.

Hi guys...this is my first post in here, bookmarking it....I kinda interested in Swiftlet Birds Nest business.

I heard it through a friend...its gonna cost me abt RM20K to start (not including the cost of rental etc) for shop lot. Kinda tight with money but have to at least for beginning stage.

First is I'll read though the forums for guidance.

If there are any of you in JB, I'll like to meet up

This post has been edited by azbro: Jan 18 2010, 04:53 PM

I tried to brush it off too in the first place but upon seeing millions of spores gets air borne when my head light shinning thru it, I stopped brushing it. If there is no better way to clean it on site, I guess the worse case scenario would be replacing the plank.

Mold allergy FAQ

Thank you Uncle WW, i shall surely meet up with you one fine day. Just to fill up everyone on my present position. Had read thru' V1 & V2, Make Millions From Swiftlet Farming, Definate Guide by Dr. Christopher Lim. Am scouting for a piece of Agriculture Land, doesn't matter where, willing to travel.

Planning to get a piece of land approximately 3 Acres, built a BH, stay @ ground floor, do some farming at the excess land, rear some pets

Was visiting some land, northern part of Selangor, was passing thru some land, new lime (tree/bushes) plantation, saw about 20~25 swiftlets sourcing for food (insects). I stopped by for about 30 mins, i saw 2 types of swiftlets, 1 type is the grass type, flat tail, the other is the AF (double tail, dark brown). I remember reading that AF birds do Not mixed with other birds, but do they mix wih their same types? The ratio was about 12 (grass) to 8 (AF). Maybe i should do a test call?

Looking into building a test call unit, DIY type. Shall visit Jalan Pasar tomorrow. i reside very close to Pasar road (less than 8 km). Any suggestion on the test call kit? I guess i can buy a high powered car audio player, maybe that shall support memory card, some wires/cables, 2 tweeters and fix up as a portable unit. Any suggestion?

Regards
Raymond

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Added on January 18, 2010, 5:49 pmhere is a pic, but i dun think you can see the swiflets, even though they are very near, the fly very fast.

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Added on January 18, 2010, 6:03 pmA very wild idea, anybody tried this in a BH b4? i used a similar unit in my room
http://www.sharp.com.my/images/56590-1614-AIRPURIFIER.pdf

Raymond

This post has been edited by Raymondetc: Jan 18 2010, 06:03 PM

Raymond,

No need to spend so much for the bird call gadget. After all, u only need it less than 10 times. Use your car stereo instead. Just buy 2 Motorola quality piezo tweeters about RM10 and a 4 meters long speaker cable. Make a parallel connection between the tweeters and the car speakers and then place the tweeters on top of your car. Voila !! your are done.

If your car stereo doesn't play MP3 file or without USB port, here are the 2 cheapo but effective solutions:
1) Rip the MP3 file to wave file burn it to CD
2) Easiest way...buy a FM modulator (RM30-RM50) and plug the USB thumb drive directly.

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Added on January 18, 2010, 6:56 pm

This post has been edited by aeiou228: Jan 18 2010, 06:56 PM

Coolandy,
Please note that I am here to learn from sifu here too and each sharing has to be evaluated for your own decision.
For the record I do not own a BH yet. Am just adopting sifu WW spirit of sharing whatever we know or think we know Notice the tone around here, it's more discussion then arguments?

(Dunsun thks), yes you need to provide more specific scenario for more specific suggestions.
However I will try.

I will state my own assumptions if applicable
1)Assumption - you own the BH (& land if applicable) wholly.
Why do you have to give a share of the BH to the guy running it?.
Pay him a salary or share of of EBN sale in lieu of the salary if you do not wanna come out with cash.
Another way is no salary until harvest (but you have to sweeten the deal somewhat).
Both ways you have to work out what the salary shd be.
Let's start from the lowest option I can think of, an indonesian laborer - how much? RM700-RM1000? I dun know as I havent hired 1 before.
These are only approaches , how much depends on your valuation of his contribution to your BH.
My gut feel is the nos I stated is fair. If live-in (ie at the BH), you get a ready guard, though you cant make him work for u 24 hrs a day. The last word will still be....to be negotiated between you two.

2)Assumption - the guy 'running BH is a partner and you have a JV co setup.
Approach for (1) above applies too.
Any incidental expenses can be charged to the JV co as expenses.
When you become a millionaire on the 3rd year:
your Hummer petrol, services, electricty, water for swimming pool, massage for the swiftlets to ensure big nests, wine & beer to clean the BH can all be less off from your sale so you dun pay unnecessary tax. (as legitimate business expenses
Also dun forget to invite us when you throw your weekly parties.

These are just normal business principles and I'm not a businessman.
You get better advice from your neighborhood grocery store owner
Just my 2bit. any comments welcome cos' I bantai only.
(notice I cant even give my 2sen?, cos I have not earned even that from the biz yet)

This post has been edited by Cergau: Jan 18 2010, 07:19 PM

Cergau,

We are all learning here and WW's is our Guru. When I have any queries or think of any problems, I post it so that we can all brainstrom together. In a way, most of us are amateurs in swiftlet farming with background from various fields. Soon we will learn some basic terms in accounting, legal, engineering, business etc :-)

For the fungus problems, maybe using a vacuum cleaner would help. Still prevention is better than cure.

When to comes to fungus, having a super reliable Humidistat is very important. I am using German-made ones after having gone through a lot of other makes. Most of them don't operate reliably in the RH 80%-100% range after a few month's use.

Just my 2 sen.

This post has been edited by coolandy: Jan 18 2010, 08:47 PM

Coolandy,
cool brudder

I too have pondered this

Prevention
as I am assuming folks get the fungus from having to mantain the 85% humidity continuosly.
(there are of course folks who try using humidty to control temperature which require even further experince to the threshold when humidity actually starts to contribute to higher temperature - this is a diff topic for another time)
I as someone who hangs on to every word that the sifus here write has come to this conclusion..ie
Nests need the humidity to mantain their shapes & prevent cracking off the NP.
My conclusion is the high humidity is primarily for the nests NOT the swiftlets.
My believes can only be confirmed by any BH Sherlock Holmes here who has actually gone through a situation of low humidity and gone on to high hunidity and has observed a sudden increase in swiftlet counts and other environmental conditions being constant.
Coming to my point or rather Qs ----
Does one need to have the humidity at 85% ALL the time?
1)If the nests are heavily hydrated already (my assumption they do get hydrated after a certain nos of hrs each day), one should be able to shorten the running hrs for the mister? No?
That ought to help in preventing the NP from being wet all the time? and thus the fungal growth?
I am great believer in prevention instead of cure if a way can be found.
(We have progressed far from the days of old when folks use air-cond for temp control.)
My observations can all go out the window if any sifu can drop in a pearl of wisdom that
85% = more birds + good nest OR 85% = good nest only
2)I have read abt aluminium corner boards being used. What abt aluminium NP? or any other material for that matter.
They need to cling..how do they cling. Do they actually make microsopic dents with their claws on the NP where they cling? If not other material shd do, No?
Someone ought to test out this theory with just 1 plank.
I have never read anyone making the observation that there are a lot of tiny little holes from their claws on the NP!
Also caves do not have Meranti planks in them have they

Just some crazy ideas,
you know how those chip wafer plants regulate their air? How to implement for BH? That will ensure no spores get into the BH. ANd those that get in with the birds are vacuumed.

What abt a welcome mat at the LMB with a request in swiftlet lnaguage - dust yr feather & claws!
maybe an air-curtain at the LMB! special fungicide with the blown air to clean incoming birds.
that what they do in airplanes too dont they?
What abt those broken hospitals operating theatre in the news, also fungal growth problem? What went wrong? Common factor? Water. No water, no fungus. BUt how?
Treat like hospital OT, boots inside and always inside, shoes to be left outside.
WHat abt hospital gowns for working in the BH..really ah, I wanna hire female workers only.
OK I digress.

Treatment
These are the kind of stuff the govt fund from the last budget ought to go into.
Fund the Uni chaps to go do some real science to help us.
Ascertain the specie of fungus, treatment, prevention etc..
Study the birds if they are spore carriers

If I recall my bio classes correctly, fungus propagate by spores.
You mentioned a vacuum cleaner. Good idea,
Attach a stiff brush or something to the vacumm hose for 1 man job or someone scrub & the 2nd hold the vacuum
I really am lost with this fungus thing...complicated with aroma & stuff like that cos' I can only imagine how I would deal with it if I had this problem in my own home....call the carpenter

Sorry lah. Got more Qs than answer.
Hope this will generate more discussion and some ideas.

PS thinking abt the hospital problem...can those of you who has fungus problem on the NP alos have the same with the walls? I am thinking that the spore may have already be on the NP even before installation. Can be ah?

This post has been edited by Cergau: Jan 18 2010, 11:32 PM

To prevent fungus is to lower the BH humidity, simple answer in theory but difficult to apply it physically. There is no way we can prevent spores from entering our BH unless we seal off the BH entirely. Even Sifu WW have to deal with fungus problem. Now we all know the answer of fungus prevention but we still do not know how to clean it "safely" when there are fungus on the nesting planks. Let's brainstorm:
1) Replacing the effected planks. 100% safe and effective ?
2) brush off + use the vacuum cleaner with hepa filter. 70% ?
3) Wipe it with a damp clothe. 50%?
4) I tried to burn it with those pistol like lighter but the mold doesn't catch fire. It just turned to yellowish colour.
5) Any odourless chemical that can kill off fungi ?

Dear aeiou228,
Pls share-lah, why difficult to apply? Timer problem? Need 85% ALL the time?

If it is to be limited to current practice for discussion, can't contribute -lah, got no BH experience.
Maybe there is an element of prevention here as after you've found a 'safe' (from health perspective) way to clean it, you still have to prevent recurrence? No?

My apologies I may have gone off tangent. Out of habit-lah, when brainstorming & thru practice, I do not make a conscious decision of what can or cannot. I just say what comes to mind, the more outlandish the better. List them all down and each of us look at the pts no matter how silly at 1st impression, we assume each pt works and discuss the implementation. The idea is to make a silly suggestion work. Sometimes it's known as a guided way to thinking out of the box. Works better with people unrelated to the subject matter.
If that is not what you meant, I misunderstood.

I'll jump in if no BH specific knowlege applies.

For my benefit, do yr walls near the NP with fungi have the fungi?

Infact, swiftlets will build on any materials like wood, brick walls, metals or just anything but then, we are talking of best materials for the swiftlets. Given a choice, the swiftlets will prefer A to B but if your BH's conditions are suitable, they just will build their nest even hanging on a string of electrical wire. Even ceiling is not spare, they even build their nest hanging down like a cradle.

In the cave, the swifltets have no choice but then, in BHs, they do and they tend to look for the better BH to stay and that's why, each try to outdo the others in advertising their BHs...... temptation with love calls and perfume ........ with some even offer free food.

So, problems occur only during the initial stage of doing BH and after you have over thousands, it is matter of have to increase the amount as the old ones will remain sincere and faithful to you till their death (99%).

When you have alot of nests, owners will begin thinking of how to produce better quality of nests......... my personal comments on the matter.

t is too much effort to control fungus spores.........its like bacteria.........we r full of it .......unless we go clean room.
In the tropics / equatorial region, although we r in a tighter temperature band and also humidity range, prolonged wetness/condensation should be the biggest contributor to fungus growth. Once set the spores are ever ready to spread whenever the conditions are right again.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4...ve_Humidity.png
Therefore condensation (water ) on NP versus time should be looked into.
enuf height and sufficient ventilation should reduce chances of fungus forming.
Human error and more extreme weather conditions will contribute.

Dear Cergau,

The topic of humidity control had been discussed at length and repeatedly in the past postings. In order to observe the forum etiquette, I try not to raise the same topic yet again in this thread. Anyway, a very brief summary of the past discussions about humidity control are the benefit of Hygrostat, mist spray system, Taiwan's humidifier, ultrasonic humidifier, VH opening control and Chiongguo very own maintenance free humidity control system ( any update Chiongguo ?). But of course any new out of the box ideas are most well come.

My BH has no humidity enhanced system whatsoever, but the lowest natural humidity reading ever recorded was 80%, the highest was "MAX" as displayed on the hygrometer. Molds was spotted on a selected planks only but not the walls. I'm currently searching for suitable electric dehumidifier to solve the high humid issue.

WW, thks.

aeiou228,
Fire
I figured fire which you have tried turns it a diff colour, I will presume already toasted?
But it doesnt come off easily without hard scrubbing? As WW mentioned, can it be left alone w/o disturbing the birds?
Instead of a lighter , can you try a bigger fire power like as in picture here?
I think, if flame is applied evenly throughout the all plank and not just the fungal parts, you may have a chance to toast even the spore that are about to germinate. Also the heat will 'treat' & dry the NP somewhat? But I think it will leave some residual smell with unknown effect on the birds?

(how do I put a inline pic here, cant find the appr help)
In case, my pic doesnt come out here. It's a burner that uses the canned butane gas. It's used by butchers to singed off animal hair? I use it to light BBQ fire, saves a lot of time.

Chemical
There are plenty of leads , just google 'Tropical Fungal Treatment'
1 which I scanned thru is following
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3300.html
There is a mention of sodium borate , whcih I think (may be mistaken) the common name is meat tenderiser. Ask yr wife or mum, they will tell you where these are available. It's a form of crystal, water soluble, I have used it once for 'green' method of termite eradication.

Heat/Wave/IR
Anybody wanna try DIY a microwave appliance, I can contribute a working microwave oven complete with thermal heater. Only the control panel is kaput. I am hopeless with electronics.

Ozone?
I believe there there are used in the fuit export biz. There are portable units I last checked for another purpose.

Oh 1 more important thing, I bumped into something scary 'invasive fungal' ... something. The shor test something abt organ transplant.

There must be a simple & elegant way of getting rid of fungus, how else fruit can exported easily all over the world with strict disease control?

I am in a bit of rush now, I may come back in abit with some more reading. Myabe someone can do that & share?


Attached thumbnail(s)

Thanks for the input Cergau,

Yes, initially I thought using fire will do the trick but it does not work out as I thought in practical. Even by using a small lighter will burn the wood fiber first before the mold turn yellowish.

OK Am back momentarily waiting for a return call to se of I need to rush off.
Without going hi-tech I think Boric acid is a promising.
Dissolve in water and apply, if used properly it's not toxic.
I have used it once fort termites & I am still alive today. I think there are small concentrations of em in commercial food stuff too. I never got to see the effectivesness though, it was supposed to work very slowly on termites.
They are articles on the net where folks use for skin, toes fungal treatment w/o getting dissolved nor growing extra digits!
An extract
Those in the fungicide and wood preservative manufacturing industries discovered that boric acid and/or borates are effective and reliable long term fungicides and preservatives. When wood was treated with boric acid and/or borates and then placed in a damp and warm area, the ideal environment for fungus growth you would have no fungus growth. These chemicals also work as a termiticide (prevents and/or kills termites and other wood destroying insects) -- unlike other fungicides and preservatives, which would also break down. Boric acid and/or borates are derived from natural elements, therefore they do not break down readily. When boric acid and/or borates are used as fungicides and preservatives, they serve as a growth regulator rather than a desiccant.

Fungi are plants that contain no chlorophyll. Therefore, they cannot make their own food and so they must have an outside source of food, in this case wood. There are four requirements for fungus growth; first is food, such as cellulose and lignin which is contained in all wood; second is air; third is warmth; and, fourth is moisture.
end extract
Read more here
http://devinefarm.net/rp/rpboric.htm

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Added on January 19, 2010, 3:44 pmBoric acid
Ah , powdered form available too.
http://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Cure-Fungi-based-Infections
Not only kills the fungus, but prevent spore germination too
http://www.springerlink.com/content/n07m203758474526/

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Added on January 19, 2010, 3:51 pmBN suppliers also have possibly other substance to do the same
see the RM43.00 item (semua boleh 3 in 1)
http://shop.birdnestcenter.com/vmchk/attracting-swiftlet.php

This post has been edited by Cergau: Jan 19 2010, 03:51 PM

Sorry eh, i've seen a few cases of mold (i haven't experienced any yet, tak siap lagi pun).

The BH's using mist system, the one i normally visit to learn has no mold problems, yet, after 5 years of operation. I've never visited one using humidifiers per se, but have seen those with both kolam + humidifier/mist (normally the ground floor kolam, the other floors mist/humidifier).

Just for the sake of argument (possibly repetitive of V1, some new pov's is welcome)...

1. Water droplet size

Can anyone compare the droplet size between humidifiers & mist nozzles? I find it logical that humidifiers produce smaller droplet size. In relation, also logically, the smaller the droplet size, the lighter & longer lasting is stays in the air. This plus some sort of calculation involving area size/dimension and whatever turbulence and water lost outside (thru entry hole/vent holes)... should give a rough picture on how to prevent mold formation by properly managing humidity? As tomytan said, condensation vs time.

2. Is there really no exact way of preventing mold?

Susah nak argue. After years and years... mold does pose problems to SSP's. I mean... i know that mold/fungi have their own range of temperature, moisture and even substrate/material they like... what if these factors are the same as what the swiftlets like? Is there anyway we can make nesting planks resistant to mold by changing the way they are treated or even changing the material? Are the same fungi affecting all the BH's or are there different spp's or strains?

3. Nature of wood = hygroscopic material (you can read what is means, i just type je nih).

I am not sure of chemicals... fungicides... according to this site;

http://timberwholesalecentre.com/products/services.php

CCA is commonly used. I doubt the ones i bought were treated this way. Which also raises the question of toxicity/contamination of nests.

About organic fungicides;

http://info.frim.gov.my/cfdocs/infocenter/...6n3/286-292.pdf

I found out most of them were essential oils... which normally translate into aromatic compounds = smelly. Can't imagine my planks smelling like cinnamon.

These are some common fungal problems in agriculture;

http://www.wesco.com.my/index.php?option=c...&id=9&Itemid=29

but i guess they aren't the same as those on planks.

Heres some basic info regarding wood & mold;

http://www.wwpa.org/moldff2.htm

And here are some tips, useful or not tatau la, but the moldy pics look familiar;

http://www.inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/cleanmold1.htm
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/yoho...mo/momo_005.cfm

The discussion about mold is interesting (besides giving me something to read about)... and tricky... moisture causes mold, swiftlets love humidity, no way to prevent mold when the humidity is high? Why not those with mold problems post some pics of their molds for comparison (high resolution please)... we can try to identify and discuss further. I think i have some books related somewhere... ah, Cergau, the fungal infection you mentioned in organ receivers are either aspergillus/candidiasis/histoplasmosis/crypto.neoformans... but thanks to modern technology & sterile procedure... the rate has decreased. Death to mold!!!!

Ah, about boric acid, according to wikepedia;

Preservation

In combination with its use as an insecticide, boric acid also prevents and destroys existing wet and dry rot in timbers. It can be used in combination with an ethylene glycol carrier to treat external wood against fungal and insect attack. It is possible to buy borate-impregnated rods for insertion into wood via drill holes where dampness and moisture is known to collect and sit. It is available in a gel form and injectable paste form for treating rot affected wood without the need to replace the timber. Concentrates of borate-based treatments can be used to prevent slime, mycelium and algae growth, even in marine environments.

Toxicology

Based on mammalian median lethal dose (LD50) rating of 2,660 mg/kg body mass, boric acid is poisonous if taken internally or inhaled in large quantities. However, it is generally considered to be not much more toxic than table salt.[3] The Thirteenth Edition of the Merck Index indicates that the LD50 of boric acid is 5.14 g/kg for oral dosages given to rats, and that 5 to 20 g/kg has produced death in adult humans. The LD50 of sodium chloride is reported to be 3.75 g/kg in rats according to the Merck Index.

Long term exposure to boric acid may be of more concern, causing kidney damage and eventually kidney failure (see links below). Although it does not appear to be carcinogenic, studies in dogs have reported testicular atrophy after exposure to 32 mg/kg bw/day for 90 days. This level is far lower than the LD50.[4]

According to boric acid IUCLID Dataset published by the European Commission, boric acid in high doses shows significant developmental toxicity and teratogenicity in rabbit, rat, and mouse fetuses as well as cardiovascular defects, skeletal variations, mild kidney lesions.[5] As a consequence, in August 2008, in the 30th ATP to EU directive 67/548/EEC, the EC decided to amend its classification as reprotoxic category 2 and to apply the risk phrases R60 (may impair fertility) and R61 (may cause harm to the unborn child).[6][7][8][9][10]


This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Jan 19 2010, 04:13 PM

chiongguo, dropped u a PM

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Added on January 19, 2010, 4:54 pmWhile waiting for nest, can start clinic for transgender for pendapatan sampingan,
Clinic Pakar Buang Telur


This post has been edited by Cergau: Jan 19 2010, 04:54 PM