Rules and Regulations for Studying in Australia, v3.0

1) Ignorance of the rules is no defense for violating them.

2)Please use proper spelling and capitalisation in all posts in this thread. Even if your grammar is weak at least SPELL properly. No shortform lik dis. U wan help, u ask 4 help prply. Seriously, there is no reason to use shortform. You have a nice ASCII keyboard, not a keypad, and here's reason #1 to use Firefox: it comes with a built in spell checker.

We want to help you, but if you cannot make yourself understood, how is one going to?

3)Do your homework before asking questions. ALL universities publish adequate literature for an introduction to the city/town where you are headed to. Don't rock up to this thread and ask: how much does it cost to go to Australia. Australia is a very big place. You'd probably be able to live on $10/day in the middle of nowhere, but that can’t get a decent meal in Sydney. Drill down to at least a specific city. As a general rule of thumb, all universities(worth our money) would have a page outlining the general costs of living. They tend to err on the high side, but use it as a guide.

4)Drop your sifu mentality. None of us here are experts. All we have behind our screen names is the privilege living in Australia for an extended period of time. Use us as a rough guide, not a hard set of rules. No one here owes you anything. Your choice of university is entirely up to you.

With that in mind, we will not answer questions like “What is the best university for X discipline?” or "Is N university good?". Rather, ask “Anyone in Y university? I would like to ask a few questions about their X discipline degree.” politely and maybe we might answer.

5)Scholarships. Everyone wants one. Few of us have one. This forum is not to spoon feed you what scholarships there are. All universities have a link for that. Look for yourselves. We will not answer questions like "im thinkin of tkin engineering in UQ cld any1 giv m a reference abt any scholarships?" (even ignoring the language). We will however, try our best to answer something like "The Sony Multimedia foundation scholarship in QUT: what are my chances?" (Answer: zero, unless you’re a PR, since they’ve changed the rules)

Education is a commodity. Facts of life. And the “top applicants” who get a (partial) scholarship usually have a GPA of 6.5 out of a 7 point scale.

6)Cant understand what we're saying? Befuddled over the word you just saw? Here's a google trick: type "define: Befuddled" (or whatever word you don't understand, without the quote marks) into google.

7)Agents are NOT responsible for your accommodation in Australia. Complaining here is meaningless.

This post has been edited by haya: Apr 10 2009, 09:54 AM

LIST OF MEMBERS STUDYING/STUDIED IN AUSTRALIA
credit :dilys

There is no warranty, implied or otherwise, on the accuracy of the list.

Previous Studying in Australia Threads:
Studying in Australia: Where is all started
Studying in Australia v2: Spam starts creeping in
Studying in Australia v.2.5: The reason why we can't have nice things

This post has been edited by haya: Dec 1 2009, 10:09 AM

Studying in Australia: The Guide

So you’ve decided on Australia to further your education. You’ve never left Malaysia for an extended period of time. You don’t know anything. You are filled with a million questions. Without thinking, you log into lowyat.net and discover a Studying in Australia thread.

STOP.

This guide will serve as a FAQ for all your questions. Please read it carefully before asking any questions. It has been compiled over a period of 2 years with information from the 2 Studying in Australia threads.

As Australia is a big country, with many regional variations, it is impossible to write a guide that covers everything. This guide is only meant to give a general outline of the basics of Australia. What may be true in (say) Sydney may not apply in Adelaide. Use this guide, and this thread, as a rough guide, not as a hard set of rules.

The basics: getting there

Generally, most Malaysians will study in one of the major centers. However, flight connectivity is not equal in Australia. Flights to Sydney and Melbourne are generally a plenty, but not so for Adelaide, there is no direct flight to Hobart, and Canberra must be one of the few capital cities in the world with no regular international flight (they all have to go through Sydney).

The best option is to fly Malaysia Airlines, as they fly reasonably regularly to Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Alternatively, if you can make your way down to Singapore, there are many alternatives, Qantas being one, and as an alternative instead of flying directly to (say) Adelaide, you can opt to have a stopover in Melbourne. Sometimes this may actually work out to be cheaper.

Note that the fare for one way ticket is different from a return ticket. It is not half of return ticket. If you have the intention to return within the year, it makes sense to book a open ended return ticket. However, for that privilege generally one has to buy the full fare ticket (ie no supersavers, websaver type tickets).

Do your own research. Fares and timetables change all the time depending on the season. Lowyat.net members are not responsible for choosing the airline you take.

In terms of comfort, there is little to distinguish between MAS, SIA and Qantas. All are full service airlines, all have proper meals on-board and inflight entertainment. Generally these airlines tend to be a bit more lenient with the inevitable excess weight that first time students bring with them. Just go for whichever suits your circumstances.

Low Cost Carriers, eg Jetstar, Tiger Airways, Air Asia X, are highly NOT RECOMMENDED for first time students arriving in Australia. There low cost carriers tend to be very strict on luggage weight, seat pitch is very tight, there is no inflight entertainment for the long journey, and most involve at least one transit either in Darwin or Perth. They are however, a cheap way of going back home for the holidays once you are more settled in Australia.


The basics: Packing for Australia

You only have 20KG of check-in luggage allowance in economy, so it pays to watch your luggage weight. In the past we have heard people actually packing things like reams of paper and rice to Australia. Australia is not a 3rd world country, and even after conversion, the prices of rice and paper is almost the same as Malaysia. (10KG of cheap rice = $14, or about RM35) So it is not worth bringing your entire life over here.

Small things are generally cheaper in Malaysia, such as pencils, pens, erasers, rulers etc. Stocking up on these basics will probably be a good idea. Architecture students take note.

For clothes, just buy a basic few in Malaysia, and buy the rest in Australia. Warm clothing in Australia is not much more expensive than buying from Universal Traveller. Prices of basic clothes are not that much more different from Malaysia, and generally are more suited to the Australian climate.


The basics: landing in Australia

Due to Australia’s geographical isolation, many of the agricultural diseases (mad cow comes to mind) do not exist in Australia. This is also the reason why all beef in Malaysia comes from Australia and New Zealand. To protect their valuable agricultural industry, Australia practices strict quarantine laws. In short, there are many things one cannot bring into Australia. Generally it is food related stuff, but a full and authoritative list can be found here: http://www.daff.gov.au/aqis/travel/enterin...ralia/cant-take

A few hours before landing in Australia, an Incoming Passenger Card will be handed to you (regardless of airline) to fill in. This is a legal document, and any misrepresentation can, and have led to, legal action, with fines up to A$66,000. If you tick the box saying you do not have food products, and a x-ray later turns up food stuffs, expect a on-the-spot fine of up to $200. If in doubt, just tick the box saying you have food products.

When you land in Australia, your bags will be checked for foodstuff my dogs running around the luggage carousel. To make life easier for myself and quarantine staff, I usually put all foodstuff into one single bag, say the cabin bag, so when I have to declare, I just have to open up one bag, instead of having to dig through the tightly packed bag to get the food stuff out. If they do not allow something to be brought in, just let it go. Do not attempt to argue, or plead with the excuse that it is your first time. You make us Malaysian’s look bad, and it is bad enough that Malaysia consists of, amongst other things, ethnic Chinese and Indians.


The basics: Money Matters

1. Opening a bank account:
Malaysian banks do not have any branches in Australia. While more international banks like HSBC have banks in Australia, generally they are more focused on business banking, not consumer needs.

Update 15-Jan-2009: It has come to my attention that OCBC customers can open a ANZ account in Malaysia before arriving in Australia. However, the minimum opening balance seems to be AUD2k. Please contact OCBC for details. Note that under the Banking And Financial Institutions Act 1989, Lowyat.net members cannot legally give financial advice.

The best way is to open a Australian bank account. To open a bank account, you need:
• A passport
• ECoE (to prove which university or institution you attend)
• Student card (not really needed)

All banks have fee-free banking for students, so generally account keeping fees and most transaction fees are waived. The student waiver has to be renewed every year, but it as simple as going to any branch and giving your student card along with your account details. The process takes less than 5 minutes.

All banks have associated or 'sub' accounts, which are ONLY electronically accessible, and comes with high interests. Some people keep a minimal amount in the main account, and the bulk of funds in the subaccount. When money is needed, you will need to electronically transfer the money from the sub account to the main account so you can withdraw at the atm. The good news is, most branches will have internet terminals for you to do that.

LYN members are not responsible for giving advice on which financial institution to use. It is up to you and based on your needs. Generally ANZ and Commonwealth bank have the most branches and ATM machines, but Sydney students seem to favor Westpac. Links of major Australian banks provided below for your research.

ANZ: http://www.anz.com/
Commonwealth Bank: http://www.commbank.com.au/
Westpac: http://www.westpac.com.au/
NAB: http://www.nab.com.au/

For Queensland students:
Suncorp: http://www.suncorp.com.au/
Bank of Queensland: http://www.boq.com.au

For Western Australia students:
BankWest: http://www.bankwest.com.au/

2. Transferring Money from Malaysia
There are 2 ways of transferring money from Malaysia: Telegraphic transfer (TT) and bank draft (“draft”). In a nutshell, TT is faster, but more expensive. Drafts are cheaper, but take longer for funds to be cleared.

TT is the most popular way of moving money to Australia. It is fast too: anecdotal evidence shows that if the transfer was initiated on the Malaysian side first thing in the morning, usually one would receive it by the end of the business day in Australia.

However, TT costs more. There is a fee by the Malaysian bank, and the Australian bank will usually take a cut from the transferred amount (usually about 2%). To do a TT transfer you also need your Australian bank account details.
Bank drafts are essentially cheques, just useable internationally. Bank drafts are made in your name, so you deposit it to any bank account in your name, regardless of your bank. It is cheap too: Malaysian banks generally only charge only RM5 for the draft, and Australian banks don’t take a cut from the cleared funds. I have deposited Maybank and Public Bank drafts into Commonwealth Bank and ANZ accounts fine.

On the downside, it is slower. Funds generally take about 3-4 working days to clear. (Whoever said that it takes 14 days, it is time to change you bank!) The trick to have proper financial planning, and not wait till you are down to you last $100 before pleading for money.

TT and draft exchange rates differ between banks. It pays to shop around to get the best rates. A few links below:

http://www.rhbbank.com.my/treasury/rates/f...hange_rates.asp
http://www.cimbbank.com.my/index.php?ch=ba...0&tpt=cimb_bank
https://www.ecloan.com.my/calculator/ForexRate.asp?source=dp
http://pbebank.com/en/en_content/personal/...s/landing2.html
http://www.eonbank.com.my/treasury/forex_rates.asp
http://www.maybank2u.com.my/business/treas..._exchange.shtml
http://www.ambg.com.my/personal/rates/foreignexchange.asp
http://www1.uob.com.my/jsp/finance/fin_xrate.jsp?func=xrate
http://www.affinbank.com.my/forex/fore.php
http://www.ocbc.com.my/personal-banking/To...cid=M2_C1_S8_P1

(Links credit: member Lim Ling Yang)

3. Tax File Number (TFN)
To work in Australia, one needs a Tax file number. It is also a good idea to give the TFN to your bank to ensure you are not over-taxed (up to 40%) on your interest earned. Easiest way to apply for one is through the ATO’s website: http://ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?...fp=001&st=&cy=1

If you do start working, it is your duty to give your employer your TFN so they know the right amount of tax to pay. International Students are considered Australian Resident's for tax purposes. However, if you earn less than $6000 in a financial year you may be eligible for a tax refund.

As on how to do it, please consult your respective student union/guild. All of them have tax officers who will help you for a small fee.

4. Paying your fees
Before you can start your course, you need to pay you fees. The best way is to pay by credit card. Fast, rates can be competitive, and think of all the reward points you’ll (or your parents!) will earn. After one has arrived, and opened a bank account, you can use BPay to pay your fees electronically. Just follow the instructions on your statement of account.

Fees are usually paid on a per-semester basis, so before every semester of your study you will get a Statement of Account on how much you need to pay from the university.


The basics: electricity

The good news is that Australia uses the same 240v 50Hz system Malaysia uses, so all electrical appliances from Malaysia work fine. The bad news is that Australia uses the different plug system.

This plug, used in Australia, New Zealand, Fiji and Papua New Guinea, has an earthing pin, and two flat pins forming an upside down V-shape. The flat blades measure 1.6 mm and are set at 30 to the vertical at a nominal pitch of 13.7 mm. Australasian wall sockets almost always have switches on them for extra safety, as in the UK. An unearthed version of this plug with two angled power pins but no earthing pin is used with small double-insulated appliances, but the power (wall) outlets always have three pins, including an earth pin.

There are 2 ways of overcoming this. The first is to buy a adaptor in Malaysia. They go for about RM7 in Low Yat, S$4 in Sim Lim, and A$8 in Australia. Some adaptors come with only 2 pins: its just without the earth pin. Some low powered appliances (table lamps) don’t have a earth pin in Australia.

A better alternative is to buy a generic China power bank, and change the head to an Australian one, or just use the adaptor to plug in the generic China power bank. The advantage is that the generic China power bank can also take in Australian plugs.


Moving up: Telecommunications in Australia

Mobile phones are widely used in Australia. GSM and 3G networks are mature and generally have decent coverage in urban areas. The few mobile service providers are
• Telstra
• Optus
• Virgin Mobile (part of Optus)
• Three (only has a 3G/HSDPA network)
• Vodafone

Generally Telstra and Optus have the best coverage, but not necessarily the best value. As the telco providers seemingly change their plans all the time, it is not possible to list them out. Shop around for the best deal and what suits your needs. The good news is that if you really have no life, you can get a prepaid which will be valid for 265 days!

Be careful about these “cap” plans. The word “cap” is misleading. It is more like a minimum spend, on a contract. You can have these $49 cap plans, which for $49/month, you get something like $300 worth of credit to use. Unused credit does not roll-over to the next month, and if you use beyond the $300 you will be charged extra on top of the $49 you have to pay. And even if you don’t use $49 worth of credit, you still have to pay. Also, keep in mind these are contract plans, and you will be tied to the contract for 24 months. On the bright side, all these cap plans will give you a free new handphone.

For more information on mobile choice, visit http://www.phonechoice.com.au/


Moving up: Internet in Australia

Internet Broadband is a must for us this days especially dealing with assignments and notes from course. For basic broadband line; it requires a landline to able to connect to the internet. There is many ISP providers throughout Australia and it varies from state to state. Best place to start looking is:

www.whirlpool.net.au
www.internetchoice.com.au

LYN members will not give advice on which ISP to go for, through if we are on the ISP you are interested in we may provide feedback. However, do NOT go near Dodo internet. No one has ever had a good word about them.


Moving up: Is studying in Australia as easy as it seems?

Don't take for granted that when the university tells you that it's a 4 years degree program means you can complete the degree in exactly 4 years like local universities do.

In general, a BEng paper in Australia has about 35 modules to complete. Each year you'll have like 2 semesters and a short one at the end of the year. Taking 4 subjects per semester is a really crazy thing to do and I must warn you that most of the time you'll barely get through with passes or if you're lucky, probably score in one or two of the subjects.

Unlike in local colleges where I've seen students taking over 5-6 subjects in a single semester and still make it with most subjects getting As, this is not so with Australian universities. Few students actually finish their degree according to the timeframe.

You may one to ask other Australian students in this forum about how they find about the number of years they took to complete their degrees. 3 subjects itself is already taxing. Four subjects per semester is the maximum that you can take although the universities won't stop you from taking a much as you like since resitting means more money.

This post has been edited by haya: Jan 15 2009, 07:00 PM

IELTS and the need

There is a lot of misconception of IELTS. It is NOT a test. It is an assessment system on English language COMPETENCY, and the grade you get grades you on your level of proficiency of English.

IELTS is quality, not quantity. You can write 3 pages, but if it is riddled with grammatical errors, poor spelling and punctuation, you're not really going to get much.

If you look at the criteria for a IELTS 6:
.

It doesn't mean you're a native speaker. Even a IELTS 9, which is defined as a native speaker, is still considered a native speaker of the English language AS A SECOND LANGUAGE. That said, if you do achieve a 9, your grasp of English is probably better than some people in English speaking countries in the western world.

As it is a international benchmark, in theory a 6 in China should be similar (note similar, NOT the same) to a 6 obtained in Malaysia, or a 6 obtained in China. Of course, like any language, it is subjective, and dependent of the marker, but there is a publicly known marking criteria. Unlike SPM or even 1119, where no one knows what the criteria is. Sure, you can say it is based on the British "o" levels, but no one will ever call the Peroudua MyVi a Japanese car despite having it based on a in Daihatsu.

Names in the Western Context
The thing about Malaysia (and its passports) is there is no provision for surnames. To an extent, this is understandable, as Malay's do not have surnames. However, in the western world, surnames are an important concept. The whole Identification process is all based on the surname.

There are 3 ways of dealing with Chinese names in the western context. Some people hyphenate the two words, so "Tan Ah Beng" ends up being Ah-Beng Tan, with Ah-Beng being your name. Most Taiwanese follow this convention when writing their names with alphabets (just look at all the Taiwanese presidents).

The other way is to follow the PRC convention, and make them one "word". So your name will be Ahbeng Tan. The only downside is that your name will be mispronounced a bit more than one would like.

Finally, the Malaysian/Singaporean convention is to just switch your name around, so your name is written as Ah Beng Tan. The downside to this is when you are called (in class, bank etc), you end up being Mr Ah Tan, as generally the "Beng" is treated as a middle name and not generally used.

(Credit to member azarimy for the explanation below, slightly modified from here:


Usually Malay's would use their fathers name as a surname when living in Australia.

A good convention in academia, is to underline your surname when handing in reports/assignments.

This post has been edited by haya: Jan 14 2009, 08:08 PM

Getting an Australian PR

Short Answer: impossible as a student. So don't ask. This is the Studying in Australia thread, not Migrating to Australia thread. You either get a PR before you study (and pay domestic fees), or AFTER you finish studying.

The simple fact of the matter is your position in Australian universities is determined by your residency status. If mid-way through your course you get a Australian PR by virtue of your parents, you will have to drop out of your current enrollment, and may not be able to continue should the quota of domestic students for your course be filled.

That said, the immigration rules change often, so Immigration's website would be the most accurate and up-to-date information. If you have problems, don't come here where we might give you misleading or wrong advice. Find a migration agent.

Concession Fares for public transport
Victoria and New South Wales are the 2 states where international students (ie most of you reading this) DO NOT get concession fares (usually half the full adult fare) on public transport. Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and the ACT do give international students concession fares.

As I have always said, there are many factors one have to take when choosing a university, not just the name of the university, not just is a certain university is good for a particular course. And if you're (or your parents) are paying, cost is one factor, and knowing which state gives concessions to international students is one of the factors in deciding where I ended up studying.

Always carry your student ID, and show it when buying concession fares.


This post has been edited by haya: Feb 27 2009, 06:56 PM

reserved.

As quoted from here:

Beggars can't be choosers. I have lived a full 30 minutes by bus from university when I arrived. It is rare for ones first place to be the place where you stay for the duration of your course. My advice to anyone is to just grab the first place when you arrive, settle down, get used to the place, then probably move out during the mid-year break.
That said, UniLodge is a reasonably reputable place (ie they wouldn't take your money and run away without a trace). But assuming you don't have a confirmed place to stay, I'd say a week in a motel would probably be a safe bet.

No one is asking anyone to confirm to any convention. In my UoD the only people who use the PRC convention is the Mainland Chinese. My point it, there are many ways to dealing with Chinese names. Sometimes it may work to your favor: Tan Li Na becomes Lina Tan, which is not a bad way to go. My point was the highlight the possibilities, and leave it to the individual to decide.

By all means, follow the Malaysian convention. However, like it or not, you will have to do some rearrangement to your name (or some clarification at least) in Australia. You can fight it, or you can accept it and move on with life.

And guys, advertising of events is tolerated, but any discussion of the event goes to the Kopitiam, okay?

http://www.malaysia.org.au/serv5.html#translate

$4 for translating a Malaysian drivers license at the High Commission. Probably cheaper than NAATI. It does say "No charges for student. Kindly include a certified copy of your student ID" through.

It depends. While a studio has only one bed, most of the time it seems to be a queen sized bed at least. Probably wouldn't mind that if you're bringing your partner over. I do know some people in Unilodge Brisbane who stay in one place and have their other half (^_^) staying with them.

Unilodge is expensive, but at least they are geared for students. My advice would be to probably try to get a place instead of worrying about finding accommodation, get used to the place, then probably move out during the mid-year break once you are more familiar with the place.

Depending on your course, the books you need may not be available in Malaysia. I would advice to just buying them off Amazon.com. As panda-man said, weight is an issue. You only have 20KG. One of my books is 3KG (no joke); I can think of more interesting things to bring from Malaysia than a stack of papers.

1) If anyone has firm evidence that [="@k£LwIN@"=] and oceanblue123 are the same person, please go to the Main Site/Forum Feedback and Helpdesk and make a report, and let the moderators deal with it. There is no point mudslinging here.

That said, it is very suspicious that a newly registered member comes up with full praise for the services offered by [="@k£LwIN@"=].

2)If there is ever the need for proof of Malaysian spoon-feeding, it is clear that there are no lack of people who will, despite everything else, pay money to be hand-held at every step of the way. It is their choice; no one put a gun to their head.

3) Rule no 5 of the Education Essentials sub-forum says "Strictly no commercial advertisement here in Education Essentials." I would think that includes advertising of ANY kind of service, be it teaching or orientation.

4) I believe that it is the job of the universities International Student Services to orientate your view, give you information about public transport, help with bank accounts, TFN's, and put you up in temporary accomodation. That's what QUT did for me. 3 hours after I landed I was trying to find my bus.

And as I said in the previous thread, nothing orientates a person in any place with a road map ($20 for a simply basic one: I'd sell my Brisbane one for $10 if anyone is still interested), and having to find accommodation.

5)It doesn't matter if the city is in a grid, round, oval, looping like Putrajaya/Canberra, you will be lost in ANY new place you go. Just take it as life: I get lost when I go to Penang, and I can assure you many people here don't know where Limbang is, never mind getting around the small town.

6) Let me get this straight oceanblue123: you are quite happy sharing a place with a complete stranger, sharing his room/bed, but you feel insecure when navigating around the streets of Melbourne. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather pay for a room in a backpackers. I wouldn't share a room with ANYONE, especially when one of them in this forum has a gun. Literary.


Stress free? I visited 15 places, and all 15 turned me down when I was looking for a place. Which is why, if possible, I recommend people to try and find a place in the university dorms or student catered accommodation like UniLodge.

This post has been edited by haya: Jan 27 2009, 06:55 AM

As defined in the previous thread:


I'm not sure why it causes so much confusion throough. Most Malaysians will never be an external student for an Australian University if they are planning on stepping on Australian soil.

This post has been edited by haya: Jan 28 2009, 03:27 PM

Arrive in Australia first. Get used to the place. Learn how to make a CV with your limited qualifications. Start flipping the pages of the local papers. Click on the websites of potential employeers (KFC, Woolworths etc).

For Malaysia Airlines and Singapore Airlines, when (note present tense) booking your ticket to an overseas destination, if you can show proof of enrollment at an overseas educational institution, they will print 30k on your ticket for baggage allowance.

At least, that was what they did in the old days. With MAS restructuring (which the only change I can see is horrible seat colors), and SIA in a bit of a financial pickle, they may no longer honor the perks of civlised air travel.

And seriously, do we need to spoon feed people to the point of putting luggage allowance on the front page? What's wrong with going to the websites of the respective airlines and finding out yourself?

The thing is, I can do research for the major airlines, but what happens if they change? What happens if a new airlines starts plying between SEA and Australia? I cant cover all the airlines.

The thing I really don't understand is why, when faced with a query, the first thing that comes into the mind of people here is "Oh I know. I will ask some people on the internet which may or may not exist for advice which can be horribly wrong". And when its wrong they whine and go "Ah ha! So much for telling to get your facts right when you're wrong!".

Is it so difficult to pick up the phone these days?

Generally, it is 3 pieces of luggage, or 20KG, whichever comes first. So you can have one bag, which weighs 20KG, or 3 bags which weigh 5 +10 +2 individually. However, in theory you can check in as many baggage pieces as long as the are under the limit.

Yes, voltage and frequency is exactly the same as Malaysia, 240V @ 50Hz.

Just asking, was there any part of "The good news is that Australia uses the same 240v 50Hz system Malaysia uses, so all electrical appliances from Malaysia work fine." from the front page that is not clear? I would like feedback if to improve the guide.

And no, customs does not check your laptops/HDD's when you enter. I have explained my position here

4) Pedophilia material. Commercial porn (like CLONNAD) not included.

You don't need to bring so many things over. Member jerk even brought reams of paper over, which is absurd when you think about it: I don't think it is any cheaper in Malaysia, and I can think of more interesting things to bring in the 2KG a ream of paper takes up on average.



This post has been edited by haya: Feb 4 2009, 07:01 PM