You don't get it do you? I am having fun with you. Great entertainment.

BTW, the figure you gave me for Malaysia is useless because we are talking about KL. As a scientist, you should know what is relevant and what is irrelevant information. Frankly, I am disappointed you do not know that. Well, nothing perfect in this world.

On the trial. Nobody know whether it's going to to be a success or not. But assuming KL trial is a success, I presume the authority will try it out on other bigger town that has SUFFICIENT pharmacies only.

On length of studies. Doctor have more things to learn than pharmacist (but you sounded as though you do not know that and I am shocked ). You could say doctor is the best jack of all trade in health. BUT when it comes to medicine, pharmacist learn more about medicine than doctor and they are therefore the specialist of medicine. These 2 are facts.

Taken together, therefore, doctor is the better general rounder and hence rightly should be the better person to diagnosis and prescribe because he can see the whole body system. But pharmacist role is more specific to medicine and thus is the better person to dispense medicine.

@hypermax

Obviously my friend...if the TRIAL is a success..it wont only be confined to Klang Valley, and it also will not be implemented throughout the whole country at 1 go...

It will have to be implemented at stages...one place at a time... make sure each city is prepared..
That is how Taiwan did it...they started off in TaiChung, and slowly to KaoShiung, Taipei...etc.
And you and I know that implementing it at one go throughout d country is not possible...not all city are like KL, PJ or Butterworth...so, they have to slowly help other cities to prepare for this, while other cities will set as pioneer for others to learn.

Doctors needs 5 years learning, bcoz your job needs it, and deemed sufficient enough for you to go out & practise. ...so the things u learned r specialise on diagnosis, treatment...

Pharmacist needs 4 yrs learning, it is also bcoz our job needs it...in such duration that are deemed sufficient. And the things we learned are specialised in drugs...

I do not see that the difference in years on learning or even lecture hours make doctors more superior than others pharmacist, nurse, engineer, etc). It is after all, we are learnin almost different things!

If you think doctors learn more than anyone else...then be more humble...

I dun c the needs of doctors belittled pharmacists & pharmacists degrading the doctors...get over with it. We will never move on like that...this is sometimes so meaningless...in the end, both side lose out

Who belittle who? The person I belittle are those doctor who think they can make no mistake so need nobody to double check for possible mistake. Now AFAIK, only god (even this is debatable) can make no mistake so I suppose I belittle those doctor who think they are god. To those doctor who think they are also human, I hold them in high regards

Ever heard of uneven distribution pattern? Every scientist worth his salt would know that. Do you?

oni sufficient   well how can that ensure patient safety....the oni way to ensure your patient safety is good at it not oni juz sufficient..

and btw    is this a thread to talk about will pharmacist gain dispensing right in Malaysia? or who deserve the dispensing right? but nvm bcos i enjoy it   

Taken a walk around KL lately?

erm....i dun think UK have enough pharmacists and a lot of them are not locals but why the dispensing right belongs to the pharmacists....well shortage of pharmacists ain't a good reason why dispensing right should belong to the doctors

but wat if our country hav sufficient pharmacists, will the docs giv bac the right to the pharmacists?I guess no.

OK. Let's admit it. You don't know how many pharmacies there are per 1000 people in KV or KL and neither do I. It's your guesses and mine. But the person who has that figure is the Health Ministry. So who are people here gonna believe, your figure? my figure or the MH?

If HM think there are sufficient pharmacies in KV, they will do a trial. If they don't think there are sufficient, they will not do a trial. End of this "how many pharmacies in KV" guessing game.

enough for a purpose...so? juz enough oni??is that the way u ensure the safety of patients

May be UK has sufficient or may be they don't. I don't have the figure. But assuming they do not have enough pharmacies, then what you are saying reflects: UK people has 1st world mentality and we have 3rd world's mentality.

We are also extremely short of doctor when we give doctor diagnosis right. Why?

Your previous post:
Director-General of Health Tan Sri Dr Ismail Merican said the ministry was not able to implement this system earlier due to logistics problems, especially the shortage of pharmacists and pharmacies in the country.

I am truly shocked. So tell me, is KV the entire country? I am so shocked our Malaysian doctor can make such a mistake or was it deliberate attempt at misinformation? The more reason we need pharmacist to check what they prescribe.

You keep putting 'shortage' as an excuse. And I have answered that for safety reason, shortage is not an valid excuse. Why do you keep going in circle?

oh yes, this is a matter that have not seen by the general public or doctors that has never go out from malaysia, how well the medicine is presented to the patient in country like UK, US and Aus. in fact, in uk, there are strict requirements of how the medicines should be packed/labeled etc.

not only that in malaysia, the medicines handed out didn't contain the essential information of the drug, nor a helpful instruction on how to take the medicines, often i see that the medicines were packed into random packet. (e.g. my grandpa recently visited the doctor for his diabetic medication, when i was asked to see the med, i was surprised to see 6 blister packs of gliclazide were packed into a plastic pack which is made for some other drug, for some foot treatment if i recall right).

i believe when the system ask the doctor side to have all stricter requirement in dispensing, even the simple thing such as in packaging and labeling of items dispensed, i have no doubt they will answer with 'that will add more work load etc". so why not take this opportunity to let the pharmacist do their best at work, dispense as prescribed, counting tablets, printing labels, and meanwhile double check the medication is right, for the right patient.

Why shortage is a valid reason?

And why is Malaysian patient's health requirement different from UK's? Are we less valuable or what? Please enlighten us.

http://www.pharmacy.gov.my/html/annual_report2004_main.htm

Look at: Table 4: Distribution of Pharmacists according to States

Although it's old-ish (2004) data, it's surely better than making guesses out of our ass

well, once more, know what is dispensing and prescribing. pharmacist doesnt have to know how to diagnose, but have to know what the medication is for, and its right dose. so that when he/she got a prescription, he/she would know that medicines is for the right patient, and at the right dose, and doesnt interact with any medication that the patient is having, and make sure the patient is aware of the side-effect that the patient would be best to know.

the pharmacist doesnt have to diagnose the patient if he/she got pneumonia or cancer.

that is the difference of diagnosis follow by prescribing and dispensing what is prescribed.

if the doctor made a wrong input on the dose on the prescription, i really doubt the spm leaver will notice it, but just to dispense it and hand to the patient, unless the dose is ridiculously uncommon or high. but what if for drug with narrow therapeutic index, a little difference in the dose will do the harm.

There are not enough doctor. So doctor not doing the job properly. So why should we give them the diagnosis right?

2004. 3506 pharmacist
2006. 4292 pharmacist
An increase of 786 over 2 yrs. So 2008 probably just over 5000 now, not just 4000+

oh yes dear doctor. my mistake again. 

what opti was trying to say is, if doctor can do their job well, diagnose and prescribe despite the profession is at such a shortage, why not pharmacist given their right to do their job well either. fair not? though ratio of pharmacist:patient is even smaller.

Serious shortage of doctor. But must still give doctor diagnosis right because they are the best person to do it.

Therefore, same logic dictate:
Serious shortage of pharmacist. But must still give pharmacist dispensing right because they are the best person to do it.

Conclusion: Do not bring up shortage as an excuse not to do the right thing.

Umm I think you're the only one here who's jumping at "ARE OUR LIFE CHEAPER THAN UK'S OR WHAT?!?!11?!?!one" in this discussion. No one's stopping anyone from getting their meds from the pharmacist instead of their doctor. As it stands now it's a personal choice.

Now why don't you go to Watsons and get yourself a chill pill?

erm in oxford dic...
sufficient-enough for a particular purpose rite?

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Added on December 19, 2008, 12:08 am

tats wat i'm bout to say....if dispensing right belongs to the docs y the drugs are not dispense by them......

the pharmacist wants exclusive rights to dispensing lah......ie no choice for patients, cannot/not allowed to get from doctors, but must buy from pharmacists........

2006
Doctor — 21937
Pharmacist — 4292
Ratio 5:1

Extreme shortage?

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Added on December 19, 2008, 8:31 amhttp://educationmalaysia.blogspot.com/2006/03/its-raining-doctors.html

It seems we have another problem on our hand - lousy quality doctor.

It's high priority for the pharmacists too. In fact probably higher priority for pharmacists compared to doctors since the pharmacists want to fight for their livelihood.

Irrelevant. In court proceeding, that is called speculation and not admissible as evidence.

If you want to speculate, how about this. If there are dispensing right, I am sure a lot more people would want to study pharmacy and be a pharmacist. That is free market at work. Told you before but you forgot.

Irrelevant. In court proceeding, that is called speculation and not admissible as evidence.

If you want to speculate, how about this. If there are dispensing right, I am sure a lot more people would want to study pharmacy and be a pharmacist. That is free market at work. Told you before but you forgot.

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Added on December 19, 2008, 12:24 pm

Is this your idea of more intelligent input? This fellow couldn't give a valid reason and instead talk about some chill pill.

What is there to stop more people wanting to do pharmacy and going back to their home town? Then their home town would be so saturated with pharmacist that they too will demanding dispensing right?

See? Speculation works both way.

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Added on December 19, 2008, 12:28 pm

Show me the "many" you talked about.

haihz.. why all of you want to fight among yourself like small kids? be ashamed la, i believe some of you are professional enough to handle this issue in better way. grow up plz! 

spamming in forum like this wont change anything, its just maybe slightly increase your adrenalin level 

erm..for me they should know more other than juz enough as there are new pharmaceuticals in the market every year. well maybe the number of pharmacists currently are low but there are steady increase over the last few years, you r rite currently we dont have enough pharmacist but juz for now. Earn more? the docs wan it oso isn't it, well they have the dispensing right but the drugs are not dispense by them but another person.They not really dispense the drugs but they have the rights and earn the money? btw this thread is for discucuss will pharmacist gain dispensing right in Malaysia? but not whether who deserved the right. off topic edi la

LOL, i guess i have stayed quiet for far too long. So if u wan evidence of docs' prescribing error, i am one. I am a hospital pharmacist (based in outpatient pharmacy). Goodness gracious, if u wan to know the number of errors in a day...i can tell u...i lose count everyday! Even specialists make mistakes bro. Im not exaggerating..they maybe the expert in their specialised area but believe me....out of this scope...some of them are very prone to making mistakes. And yes, its a standard procedure to ring them up to inform them about it and make suggestions. Some MO's (see here...im saying MO's not specialists becos specialists are generally very receptive to ideas) are really a pain in the back. They have real sore pride and can scream at you even if its their fault. When i told them about it, they just answered "whatever and change as you like!!@ and hung up before i even made any recommendation. Guess what next? i had to call them up again to tell them my recommendation (we cant simply change the prescription without informing so pls dun make baseless accusation) before i make any alteration. Oh ya, you mentioned something about pharmacists only selling expensive medicines outside, well...i find that totally baseless. WHy do i say so? Patients normally go to retail pharmacy to get a medication with a tradename for a particular medication (some dun even know what the active ingredient is) and if unless u can offer them what they wan, they will normally walk off. Private doctors especially specialists tends to prescribe n dispense the most expensive drugs (my grandma n dad are constantly on follow up and i always look at what they are being prescribed with) becos they r given perks by drug agents. Ask the public if this is true cos 9 out of 10 will say yes to this. Also my fren, stop belittling pharmacists cos we r constantly updating ourselves. We r also trained for disease management (thats what clinical pharmacists are for). Ya, we do make mistakes but working together with docs, we minimize errors. I bet you r just another malaysian doctor who is so full of yourself. Im really surprised with how you put your words in this forum. A man with ur level of education should hav known better that belittling other health professionals is uncalled for and indeed unethical. TQ

What do you expect? He is a 3rd world doctor with 3rd world mentality working in a 3rd world country serving 3rd world patient who, together with the 3rd world doctor, wanted to forever remain in the 3rd world. As I said, that is because life is cheap in the 3rd world.

In 1st world country, I don't think I ever come across this argument on who should prescribe and who should dispense. Only in 3rd world Malaysia.

lol....paragraphing or not im not presenting a research proposal to anyone am i? So y bother?its a forum come on doc. Oh ya, talking about the sole dispensing right thingy, i wan you to read properly too. I mentioned nth about sole dispensing right in my reasoning. Im merely addressing some of those misleading facts you mentioned before this. So by saying that we want our sole dispensing right means that we wan a share of the  'money cake' u mentioned rite? so i shud direct it back to you too, by saying that we r not competent enuff (dun say u didnt mean so, read at what u hav said in lots of your posts about pharmacists how you belittled n bashed us) to have sole dispensing rights and stuff....isnt it just another bull crap of urs? its all about money too rite? Btw...i didnt even say i wan sole dispensing rite? I didnt even think of leaving the government, so money isnt an issue for me. I stood up to post my comments becos of your personal childish n selfish view. i hold no grudge towards docs becos i work very closely with a lot of them ( of cos there r bad apples n u r definitely one of them). Even a lot of those specialists in my hospitals said they didnt think doctors shud dispense. So you the bigheaded MO shud learn to respect the elderly's view too.THen again, i dun mind docs doing the dispensing cos i couldnt even be bothered. Im just stating the so called 'facts of life' of yours. I wonder how can ppl like you be so full of yourself.LOL. Shame on you for saying that we r not putting forward our views in a professional manner, cos you r definitely pointing lots of fingers back at yourself. Look at how your arguments make u look childish, selfish n arrogant.

Pharmacist wants sole dispensing right. Hypermax here wants sole prescribing and sole dispensing right. Should both profession get rid of the 'sole' word?