Do you know the meaning of the word "sufficient". If not, please look up in the dictionary.

Are you sure there are in-sufficient pharmacies in Klang Valley? You an oracle?

Where do you think the NHS get their money? From the sky?

Think about that. Money all come from the people. Either direct to doctor or indirect through tax. You know about the tax thing, do you?

I know LKS have many reasons. I am just wondering why SAFETY is never one of his reason mentioned so my conclusion is that he think Malaysian life are cheaper than developed countries. That's all.

So tell me, is the government going to permanently implement this dispensing right or it is just a trial.

Please pick up your dictionary again and see what it says about TRIAL.

Isn't CANCELED or WITHDREW the same meaning in this context? In both case, the trial were not being carried out.

You want to split hair like Bill Clinton? Sorry lah, my england not that good as yours. To me, cancel or withdraw has the same meaning. Any other English teacher here?

AFAIK, nobody else complained except doctors and DAP. So logic says they are the one causing the withdraw or cancellation (which one would like to pick, withdraw or cancel?)

If there are 4000 pharmacist in Klang Valley, yes, that is more than sufficient. Or can you give me the true figure for KV?

oh i see. no offense, just a heated discussion. hehe!

despite the lack of understanding in and underestimate of pharmacist roles by hypermax, i have to agree that msia is not ready yet. pilot project would be lovely to test the system, but in the end, i think msia might not seems as ready either.

it will also foot too much financial hassle to the public. and also lack of health awareness among the public could be the downfall as well. the reason why pharmacy works so well in other country is because general health knowledge among the public is way better than the typical msia, hence better use of the pharmacy besides GP, and also the pharmacist is as well respected as the doctor.

In another word, the term "Not enough" should be thrown out of the window because it's a non-excuse. Not sure doctor would agree with that, especially Hypermax.

The proposed trial was in Klang Valley if I am not mistaken. So we should concentrate on Klang figure and country wide figure is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Think about it. If you were to do a trial, which area in Malaysia would you pick? If not the most developed Klang, where else?

Hypermax said Klang has insufficient pharmacies. So unless he can show us the figure, I will have no choice but to say he is talking through the wrong orifice.

BTW, let get the record straight. I said I do not know the figure for Klang. But I am basing my opinion that the HM very probably must have those figure before even contemplating doing a trial. Allow me to ask you a question, choosing between HM and Hypermax figure, which would want to take?

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Added on December 14, 2008, 10:01 am

Good article but it does not shine any light on present discussion. If you read carefully, he said this system is not ready for implementation in the (whole) country.

So what that article says is nothing new. We ALL know the whole country is NOT ready for pharmacist dispensing long time ago.

In this tread discussion, we are talking about ONLY the Klang Valley and it is ONLY a TRIAL. Not IMPLEMENTING in whole country. A very significant differences.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 10:04 am

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Heard of that proverb? So let down your hair and lighten up. You should try it for your mental and health sake. And I am deadly serious about this friendly advise and NOT trying to be funny.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 10:14 am

This is exactly the reason why I am confused. If government can never condones the less qualified person to give medical diagnosis, then why are government condoning the less qualified person to do the dispensing?

There are lack of doctor in Malaysia but that will never be the excuse to allow bomoh to do diagnosis anywhere, let alone the big cities.
Going by the same logic, lack of pharmacist in whole of Malaysia should never be the excuse to allow less qualified person to do dispensing. Unfortunately people are still using that flawed logic to disallow dispensing by pharmacist even in the BIG CITIES!

What sorts of double standards are these?
Let's just look at the above logic. And not bring in "lack of pharmacist etc" here.

Ha. This really shows how ignorant you are. Typical frog in the well mentality and the sky is going to fall on your head in 2013 and you still don't realize it. I bet you don't even know what I am talking about. If all doctors in Malaysia are like you resistance to change, you will go extinct when 2013 comes. Ya, you don't want to change but changes is going to be involuntarily squashed onto your thick skull. And I will very much enjoy watching from the sideline and shout "I told you so"
Here is a hint for you, heard of ASEAN Free Trade Agreement?

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Added on December 14, 2008, 2:42 pm

I sure would not want to be handled by a doctor who think he is a god and can make no mistake. Would you?

Never mind, come 2013 there will plenty of options to choose from 

It is so easy to make a frog happy 

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Added on December 14, 2008, 4:23 pmLet talk on the ASEAN agreement.

What effects do you think it will have on our medical professional? Will we be swamped by doctors from Burma who are willing to charge a fraction of the normal price? Do you think our standard of care will deteriorate?

You are too shallow and short sighted just like a frog.

In globalization, the strong or advanced nation often win at the expense of the weak and less advanced.

If Malaysian government is being responsible, she should make sure our banks and industries and service sector (of which health is one of them) are strengthened with up to advanced country's standard. And dispensing right is one of them.

Do you know what I am saying? Or are you still sleeping inside your coconut shell, frog?

Even though we are not ready, we still have to make it ready by 2013. The alternative consequences is worst and our competitor doesn't give a damn as to whether we are ready or not. In fact, they will be even happier that we are not ready. This is a fact as thing stand.

IMO, the only way out of this situation is to make ourselves ready. And to be ready means to upgrade our service and system up to their standard. Doesn't matter how it is done or why it can't be done etc. It just have to be done. Period.

If we can have a wholesale change of system to centralized health care system, good. If we can't, even piece meal change is still better than not doing anything at all. We can't just say.....dispensing is just small corner of the whole system so it can not have much impact so let's not do it. But the fact is, if you change just a small corner of the system, you can change the whole system as well.

An example. We often say before Mar-08, my 1 vote is useless. But after Mar-08, we realize that one vote of yous can change the whole system. Same logic.

BTW, we do not have the luxury of time. 2013 is a mere 4 years away. Time is running out fast. Turning around the entire system to centralized system is like turning around a big ocean going ship and it takes a looooong time, assuming we have the money and political will.

In fact, I reckon we are already running out of time.  I further reckon this trial may already be too little, too late. And yet, we have people resisting that.

Look at it another way. If you can't have the whole cake, at least part of it is still better than nothing. And try to look at the interest of this country and not just one profession's.

I reckon those non-bumi wanting to go to Singapore has already gone there. Just go to Mt.Elizabeth and you can see them there.

As for Singaporean coming here. Are you so sure they couldn't come here? The main thing preventing them coming here is because we don't really allow them (from what I heard....legal, ownership %??). FYI, there is already a Singaporean owned hospital in Sarawak and they probably would love to do the same in KL.

The main differences between the election and ASEAN thing is this: With election, the people wanted to change. With ASEAN, changes will be forced on you so you just have to prepare for it. Like it or not.

and how will that improve the competence and skills of the local pharmacist. let them always sit inside the coconut shell?

bigger competition, the best way for someone to improve.

i went to UK and work in there, i dont see me or any of the overseas pharmacists negatively affect the professionals in uk. in fact we are appreciated for filling in the shortage in the country. and they are still welcoming more.

how dispensing right will help? like you said in paragraph below, that will attract foreigner to come and work then. plenty of angmoh love the all year round warm weather in msia.

pharmacist should have the dispensing right...because they are Pharmacist..i think the chemistry they studied are way harder and complicated than doctor can expect.

Are those people at the counter in the clinics are better in chemistry than pharmacists. I dont think so....

Those taking chem degree r they know more about medicine than pharmacist do.....yes they are better in chem but not in drugs

Seems like doctor are not doing what they are trained or sworn to do, that is, practice evidence based medicine and being ethical (do things in best interest of the patient). But are more influenced by advertisement and money instead.

So are doctor really the best person to be given free hand to prescribe? How can they be influenced by drug companies with ulterior motives if not for the money or are they simply stupid? What can be done to prevent such abuse? What sort of check and balance can there be to stop such unethical practice by doctor? If they are god, then nobody can stop them. But if they are mere human, then patient must be educated that they are human and some will be unethical and mistakes will be made and that includes mistake in diagnosis (hence 2nd opinion needed) or prescribing mistake (need pharmacist to double check) and lack of choice (doctor may have limited range of drugs and will only give you what he has in his clinic and not necessarily best or cheapest drug for you).
"Many experts have told doctors for years that diuretics, a type of medicine that costs just pennies a day, are the best drugs to treat high blood pressure.

But those recommendations have been nearly drowned out by the major drug companies, which have poured hundreds of millions of dollars into marketing their newer and higher-priced blood pressure medicines, particularly calcium channel blockers and ACE inhibitors."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...751C1A9649C8B63

well do not mixed up between dispensing and prescribing again. dispensing is merely giving out medication according to doctor instruction (prescription).

i am more worry of those dispensers in clinics giving out medication independently without a final check from the doctor. at least the pharmacist would know better what medications to be taken before or after food, more than the so called dispensers in the dispensary of a clinic, how much of clinical and pharmacological knowledge they have?

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Added on December 18, 2008, 11:48 am

exactly, who would want to stay in msia, for e.g. UK is welcoming pharmacist to go over and fill their gap, and money is way better, have better roles and make use of professionalism, and best of all, the right for dispensing.

this debate is so like UK 60 years ago, when they were nationalizing the healthcare system, taking away private consultation from the gp to one free healthcare for all.

doctor course mainly focus on human anatomy.. im not putting down those doctor job, its the fact. you can go to ask any doctor about how the drug work, most of them will not give you the answer

Where did you get the crazy idea that pharmacist are also god and more ethical than doctor? Another of your brilliant statement no doubt. I don't see anyone here saying that but you. FYI, they are both human and need supervision. Here is a new term for you: Check and Balance.

Public need education. Once educated about the pro and con, then do a survey.

http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/study/course/1...y#coursecontent

Topics Include:
Pharmaceutical Chemistry:
Kinetics
Analysis, and Quality Control
Diagnostic Tests
Natural Products
Pharmacogenetics
Macromolecules
Clinical Pharmacy and Therapeutics:
    * Physiology
    * Pharmacology and their application to body systems and diseases
Pharmaceutics:
    * Formulation
    * Microbiology
    * Sterilisation
    * Aseptic Procedures
    * Advanced Drug Delivery and Quality Assurance
Pharmacy Practice:
    * Pharmaceutical Calculations
    * Communication Skills
    * the Role of the Pharmacist
    * Public Health
    * Law and Ethics
    * Supplementary Prescribing
    * Complementary Medicines
    * Chronic Disease Management
Do doctor studies all these or part of these? And do they to the same depth as pharmacist like how many man hours etc.

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Added on December 18, 2008, 2:53 pmUsing my favorite hawker mee goreng as an example. There are thousand of hawker selling mee goreng but they sure don't taste the same even thought they have the same name and ingredient. So if there are variation with simple thing like mee goreng, I am sure there are more to mixing medicine.  Do doctor learn such thing?

You not reading what is "Check and Balance" mean lah.

What can the pharmacist do if they have no right to decide what drug to give? Or are you now saying pharmacist can now also prescribe? A change of heart now?

BTW, you the who says there is no need for anyone to check on possible doctor mistake so that makes doctor god who can make no mistake. Not me.

So you now agree there is a need for a trial. Good good. We have a breakthrough.

So you now agree there is a need for a trial. Good good. We have a breakthrough. Unfortunately, your trial is tomorrow and tomorrow never comes. And using "lack of pharmacy in Klang as an excuse".

I have also learn those thing myself. I learn about it for 1 minutes just now. So that will make me an expert in medicine also?

The same reason why you are not answering the other part of my question: How many hours do doctor study those thing? 1 month? 1 year? 2 year? 4 years? AFAIK, pharmacist study those for 4 years.

May be hard for you to believe but amount of time you spend studying a subject does make a big difference.

One advantage that I can see is that documentation of medication is necessary when you separate the duties. I visited a doctor in a private clinic in KL yesterday, and you could say it's my first visit to a doctor here as an adult, as I studied abroad before this. The dialogue between the doc and I went:

Doc: "Ok, I'll be giving you some ointment and some antibiotics."
WK: "What's in the ointment and antibiotics?"
Doc: *thinks for awhile and mumbles some mumbo-jumbo*

At this point I didn't write down what he mumbled, thinking that when I get the medication it will be labeled. My fault there, I know. Instead, all I got was a tub labeled "For face" and a loose bag labeled "Antibiotics". I appreciate that it can be cheaper dispensing medicine this way, but it leaves me an uninformed consumer. I don't know who manufactured the drug, when it expires, what it contains (from which I can wikipedia or webmd it up or something), and most importantly - whether I'm getting the right thing.