You have been reading too much of those conspiracy novel. Beginning to see a sinister plot in every move. But I like conspiracy novel so let's do some detective work here, shall we?

Firstly, In every conspiracy novel and movies, there must be a motive. Please tell us what is the possible motive?

For me, I can think of the following possibilities:
1. The pharmacist pay the government to give them dispensing right.
2. The SPM leaver is tired of giving out medicine and got scolded by patient because she can't answer what is that blue pills for so she paid the government to force the pharmacist to do it.
3. The doctor are fed up also so pay the government to get the pharmacist to do it.
4. The health minister wife asked for it.

Which one do you think it is

"Who Can" mean they are all equally good. No one is better than the other.

WRITE WRITE PROPERLY LARRRRR

Bring out the champagne

We have a break through. I may be wrong but I think this is the FIRST time you acknowledge pharmacist is the BETTER person to do dispensing.

If all Malaysian doctors also acknowledge yet, there is light at end of tunnel for improved patient safety in Malaysia. Of course, only a trial can confirm the usefulness in Malaysian context.

I keep asking, how do you know? Since you said it there isn't enough, please provide proof.

On pharmacy figure in Klang Valley, between the Health Ministry and you, I would rather take the HM's word and not yours. Just plain logic. Because keeping track of how many pharmacy is their business, not yours.

So no offense when I say I just don't believe your word about this.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 12:33 amToo tired to go through past posting. But your objection to doing a trial are:

1. Not enough pharmacy
2. Doctor has been doing it for long time already
3. doctor are just as good as pharmacist in dispensing medicine.

By admitting pharmacist is the better person to do dispensing, we have settled No.2 and 3.

So tell us, how do you know there are insufficient pharmacies in Klang Valley. Show us proof and we can all go home.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 12:33 amTrust me, the chance of that happening is small. Too small for comfort.


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 12:33 AM

What's wrong with your eyes? I have said MANY times that the authority DID NOT WANT TO cancel the decision.

It was the complain from DAP (remember, the BN lost a lot of seat after Mar-08 so take DAP complain seriously) that make the authority withdraw it. I have shown you the link before. Go check it out.

Get that into your hard skull please.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 7:03 amThose are record of number of pharmacist in the WHOLE country. The trial we are talking about is in the Klang Valley. So please show us the CORRECT and RELEVANT data on Klang Valley. STRICTLY KLANG VALLEY PLEASE.

I was beginning to think what sort of doctor you are. How come you do not now how to differentiate between the WHOLE country and SPECIFIC PART of the country that is the issue here?

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Added on December 13, 2008, 8:10 amI strongly advise you do a google and see how many medication mistakes there are out there. I have given you some links before. As I said before, of which you always tends to forget, an ENTIRE lawsuit against doctor industry were built on medical mistakes. So what is this 1 example of yours compares to the other thousands and thousands of medical mistake involving doctors? Look at the big picture please.

As for Lim Kit Siang. Old habit die hard. He is born to oppose everything without thinking. But let's for a moment accept what he said is correct, we are poor and can not afford to pay extra for patient safety.

Putting that argument further and may I ask, which is more expensive, to see a doctor or a bomoh? If cost is the primary concern, then one should opts to see bomoh and remove the sole right of diagnosis to the doctor. If you remember correctly, this is where the 'bomoh' part comes in. Which, again, you forgot.

Back to LKS again. You are correct we must have proof of what we said so let's ask LKS for it. I would very much like him to provide proof of what he said because AFAIK, no such trial has ever been done in Malaysia before. I am sure the Health Ministry has their study. Let's see what has LKS's got for saying what he said. Or may be on the other hand, LKS is also a oracle like you. So no need for trial

Furthermore, LKS's title "Doctors Prescribe, Pharmacists Dispense, Patients Suffer" does not take into account increased patient safety. Once again confirming that life is cheap in Malaysia as compared to advanced countries. This is the mentality of Malaysia's doctor and opposition party. Very sad

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 08:22 AM

I see lack of education and awareness being the main issues. Heck, even our resident doctor Hypermax don't fully comprehend the role of pharmacist, what more the common public?

If consumers can realize the safety issue, they may be more willing to foot the bills just like more willing to pay extra for car's ABS/airbags things. But if they don't realize the benefit, why would anyone want to pay extra? I wouldn't.

I am disappointed with LSK. For a person of his position and supposed wisdom, he should at the very least know about the extra safety issue and give a more balanced opinion before opening his big mouth. But from the look of it, he is just the usual ignorant 3rd world general public.

So there you have it. Our Malaysia doctor and top politician are all clueless about role of pharmacist so we all die lah. They really should travel a bit more and see how advanced country does thing. And not just think they are the biggest frog inside the well so they already know everything there is to know in this universe. No need to improve further or aim higher in standard of health care.


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 09:13 AM

Do you know the meaning of the word "sufficient". If not, please look up in the dictionary.

Are you sure there are in-sufficient pharmacies in Klang Valley? You an oracle?

Where do you think the NHS get their money? From the sky?

Think about that. Money all come from the people. Either direct to doctor or indirect through tax. You know about the tax thing, do you?

I know LKS have many reasons. I am just wondering why SAFETY is never one of his reason mentioned so my conclusion is that he think Malaysian life are cheaper than developed countries. That's all.

So tell me, is the government going to permanently implement this dispensing right or it is just a trial.

Please pick up your dictionary again and see what it says about TRIAL.

Isn't CANCELED or WITHDREW the same meaning in this context? In both case, the trial were not being carried out.

You want to split hair like Bill Clinton? Sorry lah, my england not that good as yours. To me, cancel or withdraw has the same meaning. Any other English teacher here?

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:24 amAFAIK, nobody else complained except doctors and DAP. So logic says they are the one causing the withdraw or cancellation (which one would like to pick, withdraw or cancel?)

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:25 amIf there are 4000 pharmacist in Klang Valley, yes, that is more than sufficient. Or can you give me the true figure for KV?

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:27 amMy problem is LKS never mentioned "improved safety" for patient. I am disappointed because of that.

Like LKS, you people think Malaysian patient do not deserve the better care available to developed countries. Typical 3rd world mentality.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:29 amSo you are saying, because there are corruption, we deserve to die due to inferior health system system on safety? You really black heart lah.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 09:38 AM

Let me make it VERY clear.

I am NOT ready to make dispensing right PERMANENT.

I just want to see what the trial result says. Until we have a trial, all we talked here are mere hot air without meaning and substance.


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 09:46 AM

We have universal health. USA do not. What is your opinion on this strange happening?

Then the question I would like to ask is, why he never mention safety but only money?

Sometimes, it is not what's said that is important but rather what is not being said. And all I hear is money. Of course, on what is not being said, your guess is as good as mind.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 09:50 AM

May I ask how do you know we are not ready for the trial? If I have to choose between words of the Health Ministry and you, sorry, I think they are more qualified than you because they have better credential. Not unless you show me your credential to be better than theirs. This is just plain logic. When in doubt, pick the words of those who has better credential or expert. This is the same answer I gave to Hypermax.

I do not know what number of pharmacies is considered sufficient. And I believe part of the reason for the trial is to find out that answer. Without that trial, you guess on numbers is as good as mine and anyone else. On the other hand, may be we should ask Hypermax for the answer because he already know the number is insufficient. The unfortunate thing is, he refuses to give us the figure.

I don't know whether Klang has enough pharmacies or not. I do not have those data. I am sure the Health Ministry have them and will use that to come up with the idea of trial. But without that data, your guess is as good as mind. Expect Hypermax who claim he has the data but is not sharing with us here.

But I don't see LKS talking about those data so I presume number of pharmacies is not an reason for his objection. I can only see money being the issue from LKS.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 10:15 amOK. may be I am too harsh on LKS. I thought money is his top priority.

Let talk about the other issue you said he mentioned.
1. unequal distribution of service
We know there are insufficient pharmacy and unequal distribution in many part of the country. But the most highly developed part of Malaysia, Klang? I am not so sure LKS is right about Klang.

2. Quality of personnel.
I believe all these personnel are qualified and licensed doctor and pharmacist. So I am not sure what quality problem, if any, LKS is talking about.

3. medical system
Isn't this the purpose of this trial?


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 10:15 AM

IMO, the pro and cons are plain to see.
1. Cons.
Higher cost (Patient has to pay doctor consultation cost. As for medicine itself, the cost may be lower because of greater choices).
Inconvenience (but free market force would relieve that to great degree for reason I mentioned before)


2. Pros.
Increase safety to patient.

So basically, we have to look at cost vs benefit ratio. As things stand, I don't know and neither would you what is that ratio. And I believe the Health Ministry also don't know for sure and that is why they propose a trial instead of permanent country wide implementation.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 10:48 amOn government conspiracy theory. As I said before, let's discuss as to what are the possible ulterior motives. So far, I could not think of any. Can you? If there is money to be made, it's does not go to the government so they have no motive. If gov did not give dispensing to only 1 pharmacy company, then there is also no motive there. The Health Minister is not a pharmacist so he has no motive there either. So please come up some ulterior motive to share with us.

While it's good that we question their motives, we must also object with reasons and not some self interest. And the main reason I heard are:
1. Not enough pharmacist. Again, HOW DO YOU KNOW there is insufficient? Your words vs HM? I take HM's.
2. Doctor can do the job. By general consensus now, pharmacist are the better person.
3. Cost. But without a proper cost vs benefit ratio study, we don't know, do we?

Since No.1 and 2 has been discarded, that only left with cost vs benefit ratio to work out and that calls for a trial.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 10:57 amYou are saying our doctors and pharmacists are not very qualified and of low standard. Assuming that is a valid reason, then this very reason for not giving dispensing right to pharmacist is also the very reason why we should withdraw diagnosis right from doctor. They are all sub standard professional so should not have exclusive rights. It's only logical.

Since we are not using this reason to withdraw doctor diagnosis rights, it should not be the reason not to do the trial also.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 11:05 AM

This is the part I do not understand.

Not enough doctor. But doctor still given sole right to diagnosis.
Not enough pharmacist. This is the reason why pharmacist should not have right to dispense.

Both not enough. So why use "not enough" as reason not to give right to pharmacist? Or is this called double standard?


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 11:47 AM

Personally, I know it will crash the system in your rural area. But it will NOT crash the system in developed Klang Valley.

So I believe selective zoning is one of the key to success of separation of prescribing and dispensing. So let's do a trial to see whether it crash in Klang or not. If not crash, keep it. If crash, withdraw (or should I say cancel) it.

In another word, the term "Not enough" should be thrown out of the window because it's a non-excuse. Not sure doctor would agree with that, especially Hypermax.

Your previous post: "Did i say canceled? I said WITHDREW. YOu are the one having eye problem."

While there can be differences, but in this context, what is the difference if the end results are both the same: the trial is not going ahead. I know you are smart england language teacher lah. Please don't try to show off here. This is not your classroom.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 7:09 amI am glad you notice the absurdity of that sentence. That was meant to caught your eye. Now that it has, please tell us how many pharmacies in Klang Valle? You said you know but not telling. It left me with no choice but to call you a liar because you know nothing either. Despite claiming otherwise.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 7:12 amTell me, in rural areas with no doctor, what should we do? Let the patient die so you can have your diagnosis right? What sort of a doctor are you?

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 14 2008, 07:28 AM