Got difference wan meh? To me, chicken is chicken I guess...unless the chicken is enhanced, like they put seasonings/extras into the chicken, it should be the same I think. The group I joined also have some members who face the same problems(dogs allergic to chicken), but after a while they notice that it's mostly cooked or enhanced chicken that the dogs were allergic to. Check the packaging of the chicken that we buy...it should not have any additives/enhancement thingys on it. But I think in Malaysia, we don't really have enhanced chicken like the US...most of the chickens we buy are fresh ma. If the dog is also allergic to raw chicken as well, then we just switch to other meats as staple lo...no biggie

Chicken is not a must...in fact, in the raw diet, we should feed more red meats (beef, lamb, mutton, venison, etc) compared to white meats like chicken.

I have yet to see any organic chickens sold near my place, but I have to agree that organic stuff's prices are definitely ludicrous! But yes, free-range / wild meat is the 'prime' choice for raw-fed dogs, though I don't think I can afford that just yet.

Any form of raw meat is still better over kibble, IMO. That's because, organic and grain-free or not, kibbles are always processed and cooked...plus, there WILL always be added preservatives and flavourings, 6 star kibble or otherwise, so I'm sticking to raw

Red meat is the more common prey for the wolves...and because we are mimicking the feeding of the wolves, we should definitely feed more red meat. In fact, the ideal form of meat would be feeding venison to our pups, but I have yet to find any affordable venison. And because I am not feeding Whole Prey (as in, feeding the whole animal as is...no chopping, plucking, skinning etc) - more towards Frankenprey, variety is important too. So other forms of red meat is necessary. I've also read that too much poultry (the kind that we get from supermarkets and stuff...not the free-range ones) have too much Omega-6 which is not really good. There should be a balance of the ratios in Omega-6 & Omega-3....red meats and fish have considerably better ratios of O-6s & O-3s compared to poultry. Even better ratios would be the free-range, wild or grassfed animals. Will see if I can find that article I read in the raw feeding group

This post has been edited by Rayne: Mar 11 2009, 02:36 PM

No, chicken liver is considered as an organ, so it's not a substitute for red meat...you CAN however, feed beef or pork hearts as red meat. Though the heart is an organ, it is full of muscle, so it is considered as meaty meat. Same goes for the chicken gizzards.

I feed a lot of buffalo to Scottie too...that is sometimes cheaper than even the local beef being sold. I'm hoping the beef or goat that we get here are grassfed, coz grassfed ungulates have good ratio of O-6 & O-3s...the same can't be said if the cows, goats or chickens are fed with corn and what not though. I guess we'll never really know right, since we don't know actual farmers.

I've tried feeding raw eggs to Scottie, but he doesn't really seem to like it...LOL! Nah, the biotin thingy is not really a big issue. For the biotin deficiency to work,you would have to feed more than one egg a day (if I remember correctly,it was in the ranges of 10-20 eggs per day!). Plus, feeding the egg yolks and whites together will lower the biotin deficiency thingy. No worries feeding raw egg, though it's not really an important thing, if I may say so. Eggs are more like a bonus thing I guess...

Well, gizzards are not red meat, but they can be counted as meaty meat...meaning in the 80% of meat for a meal, gizzards would fall into that category. Pork is definitely red meat...they're only marketed as 'the OTHER white meat', but they're still red meat. LOL! Careful of feeding too much liver...liver should only be half of the 10% in a meal portion, not a lot actually.

I get buffalo meat from supermarkets actually. So far, I've seen them in Giant and Carrefour. The branch I always go to is in Bandar Kinrara Puchong, and they always have it in the same place as the chicken and beef section. Usually they sell them in big blocks of meat. The cheapest price that I've got so far was RM8.90 per kg, and that was quite some time ago... Nowadays it has gone up to RM11.90 per kg, which is still relatively cheaper than the local beef sold there (RM20 plus per kg!). There's another package of buffalo sold in the frozen sections...can't remember what's the company name, but it has like Jawi words written on it, and says the meat was imported from India. The package is about 900g each, and is usually sold for about RM9 - RM11 per pack. Sometimes if I can't find the big blocks of meat, or those were too pricey, I would get these for Scottie

Another cheap source of meat could be wild boar... My Mom helps me with that though...she gets it from the wet markets. They are going for about RM8-9 per kg if I'm not mistaken...about half the price of normal pork! The only thing I do with wild boar though is I would freeze the meat for a good 2 weeks or so before actually feeding it. This is because I want to kill of the trichnosis (parasite) that MIGHT be in wild boars...it all depends on you I guess, but I tend to be a LITTLE bit paranoid when it comes to things like this, so I would just err on the side of caution

OIC...I thought you're staying in West Malaysia too. There's always other options...you could feed so many other varieties of meat. I've fed Scottie chicken, duck, pork, beef, lamb, mutton, buffalo, burung puyuh, wild boar, sardines, and salmon too (salmon not too frequently though...too expensive!). If you can find rabbit, turkey, goose, venison, quail or other exotic meats,those can be fed as well! LOL! But I can imagine these to be very expensive...>.<" Still, those are options we could look into...don't have to feed all of them at once, but every now and then if we can find it and it's not burning a hole in our pockets, we still can feed it.

Haha...I'm not really that knowledgeable... I have a great raw feeding group that I turn to for answers...since they have more than 14000 members there, most of the questions we tend to ask would have been answered there already, so it's just a matter of searching through their archives and reading the digests that come in the email

You can join it too if you want! The link is: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

Well, first things first, you would need to know what is the estimated ideal adult weight for your pup, ie how much would your pup weigh (roughly) when he is bigger. From there, you would need to determine the percentage of how much to feed based on the weight.

For example, Scottie is about 6+kg now (he is going to be 2 years old this year). The ideal weight for a Min Schnauzer is about 5.4 to 6.8 kg (Wikipedia), so I put Scottie's ideal weight as 6kg. From there, I give him 2% of his body weight in amount of food (coz he's still a bit chubby) which is about 120g per day.

For puppies, they should definitely take more than 2% coz they're growing fast. A puppy can be fed up to 4% of the ideal adult weight if the puppy is very active and not too chubby... Ultimately, it's up to us as the owners to 'Know Our Dogs' and monitor them constantly. If the pup is chubby, feed less and if he is too skinny, up the amount. Hope that helps!

I do not grind anything at all for Scottie...I follow the Prey Model, which does not require any grinding. I posted an article about beginning the Prey Model diet a few pages back, so maybe you can take a look at it and see which model suits you better

Nope, it's not too young to start at all! In fact, when I had Scottie's pups with me, I also feed them raw as is (meaning with bone on) since they were 7 weeks old Easier bones like ribs or keels or backs help them adjust faster. When they're older you can give them harder bones like wings or drumsticks. Puppies take to raw easier than adults in my opinion...they adjust really quick and it's a joy to watch them eat and enjoy the food


However, I don't think it's necessary to feed bone ALL the time...you would need to monitor your pups to see if their poops are getting crumbly. Too crumbly or powdery indicates too much bone, and you could probably feed them boneless meats for the next one or two meals. For the prey model, bones are only 10% of the amount of food we're feeding, so it's really not much. Read up more on the Prey Model first before embarking on it, as you need to know EXACTLY what you are feeding to your pup

Errm...not sure about the BARF model, but the Prey Model does not have any form of carbohydrates at all. Dogs don't need (and can't digest) carbohydrates at all, actually. Some are even allergic to any form of grains. Raw potatoes cannot be given too much, as they can be toxic (the 'ears' of raw potatoes are toxic).

I guess it's up to you to decide...but from what I've read, if we are to mimic the diet of wolves in the wild, it doesn't really make sense to feed our dogs grains, as wolves don't have rice cookers in the wild, and they don't really eat grains as is.

I'd have to say, feeding raw is not a 'cure' like others might think. Yes, it might help a little with some little problems like redness on the skin or itchiness, etc coz that might be because the type of protein our pups are ingesting is not the appropriate ones. When switched to raw, the problems will go away. From what you've described, your pup might be having different problems since coughing, swollen eyelids are not common symptoms of food allergies or what have you. It might be a good idea to maybe consult another vet to find out if there are underlying problems or it might be food allergies. I'm afraid the questions you asked about shedding and eyes might be more for the vet, so it's best to consult them for these medical advises.

If it IS food allergies though, perhaps you an try an elimination diet to find which meats are not suitable for your pup. You've already fed your pup 2-3 weeks of chicken...are her stools good (firm but not crumbly)? If so, you can slowly introduce varieties to her. Pups take to raw much faster than adult dogs, but take care not to overdo it too as she's also recovering atm. There are many types of meats you can feed: mutton, lamb, pork, buffalo, fish, quail, squirrel, wild boar, beef, turkey, duck, venison, etc. Look out for sales in the supermarkets. More often than not, you could get good bargains for them..or better yet, buy from wet markets I only spend about RM50 - RM70 a month for meats, and it can feed my Scottie (a Min Schnauzer) and Kenji (a Chihuahua) for at least a month...sometimes more if I get good bargains.

Another thing to add is that, you have only fed your pup for 2 - 3 weeks. That's hardly enough time to see much enhancement...if you've noticed she has less bad breath and less stools, that is already an improvement. Raw feeding is not an instant or miracle cure. It's just a better way of feeding our furkids and helping to strengthen their bodies by giving them good and appropriate nutrition.

Re: mutton / lamb bones, please do not feed the weight-bearing bones (ie the leg bones) as they are too dense and are teeth breakers. You do not necessarily have to feed bone all the time, and our dogs don't really need that much bone in their diet anyways. An indicator that you're feeding too much bone is when you notice the stools are crumbly. If so, feed an all meat meal the next time to balance it out.. There are many types of bones you can feed. I feed Scottie bones from chicken, duck, quail, pork ribs, fish, turkey, and squirrel Make sure they are enveloped in meat though

One last thing, remember to include some organs in her diet too...raw feeding is not just feeding meat and bones. I don't know if you're feeding the Prey Model or BARF. I follow the Prey Model, and the percentages are about 80% meat, 10% bones and 10% organs. Of the 10% organs, half should be liver, and the rest other organs like kidney, lungs, spleen, etc. Tripe, gizzards and hearts are considered as meats though coz they are mostly muscle. But again, it's more of Balance Over Time...you don't have to feed your pup thte perfect percentages everyday. As long as the percentages even out through the course of time (meaning you've fed mostly meat, some bone and some organs over time), it's good enough.

Hope this helps a little!

This post has been edited by Rayne: Oct 2 2009, 01:28 AM

Hi Diana Great to hear they're doing very well with raw!

I guess fish is not for every dog. It's not necessary to feed fish if they don't like it, but maybe you can try it again later. Sometimes they change tastes and might like it later. I usually just feed fish that are high in Omega 3's (sardines, salmon) to balance out the Omega 6's from chicken. If your pups don't like fish, you can give them fish body oil (it's the same ones we get from health food stores - capsules) as a supplement to try

I've tried both local and imported for mutton. Beef from Australia is too expensive... Local beef also getting quite expensive (I think I've only found bargains for local beef once or twice so far), so I usually get buffalo meat which is cheaper I don't really freeze it for a week though. Because I buy quite a lot in one go, sometimes the meat gets frozen for a week or more, but from what I've read in the group, it's not necessary to freeze one week before feeding. Same goes to pork I WOULD freeze wild boar meat a little though because of the possibility of trichinosis, but a good friend of mine (who feeds raw too) thinks that wild boars are no different from farm pork. She doesn't freeze her wild boar meat, so I guess it's up to your own preferences

When you transition them to other meats, do it like the commercial dog food way. Feed a little of the new meat with most of the meal the meat they're used to. Over the next few days, increase the percentage of the new meat and decrease the 'old' meat until you have successfully fed them a full meal of the new meat. If they don't like the lean pork meat, perhaps you could try lamb or mutton first coz the meat smell much stronger than pork? Or if all else fails, 'tough love', or sear the meat a little first, then gradually decrease amount of searing? If I remember correctly, was it Santa who will have gastric pains? Not very sure how to handle more picky eaters, coz both Scottie and Kenji never gave me any problems when feeding raw :S Hope that helps you a little bit

LOL...Santa sure is picky! What about the bones in chicken? Hope she manages to get some of those even when the meat is bite-sized

That's great that they know how to self-regulate! As time goes, if you want to make it even more easy, you can follow some of the other raw feeders in the group...they feed bigger meals less frequently. But it also depends if they can take it though...if they're up for bigger meals, feed them a little more in the first meal and decrease the amount in the second meal until they will eat only one meal.

Aww..no need to thank me. Just trying to spread the word about raw feeding and its benefits, that's all

This post has been edited by Rayne: Oct 2 2009, 01:18 PM

Hi kawa_e,
As a general 'rule', we don't feed rice or gravy to our dogs in raw feeding. When I switched Scottie, I just switch him straight away from kibbles (ie feed him one meal kibble, the following meals all raw). He never did have any loose poop or transitional problems, and I've been feeding him raw for over a year now. No worries in switching straight to raw all the way, but be sure to be well aware about the percentages and not to panic if your dog has loose stools at first. Loose stools are more often than not the cause of not enough bone in her meals...diarrhea is very different from loose stools, so be sure to read more about it

All raw meats are good for the skin and coat because they are the correct form of proteins that our dogs are meant to eat. But don't expect to see results instantly. Like I said before in my previous posts, raw feeding is no miracle cure...it takes time to see the benefits.

You mentioned that your dog is itchy all over...did you bring her to the vet to check for any cause? It might not all be diet related, so best to check it out too in case it's other things that's causing the itchiness and inflammation

I get wild boar meat from the wet market. There's one stall in the wet market at Kuchai Lama (Jalan Batu 4 1/2 if you're familiar with that place). They're selling it at about RM10 per kg. You could also have a look out at wet markets to see if there are people selling exotic meats like squirrels, snakes, etc. to ask if they sell wild boar meat too.

So sorry to hear about your pup's condition. Hope she'll be better real soon.

I'm very sorry to be blunt, but it sounds like you haven't been reading enough on beginning raw feeding. When we feed raw, it's not about just giving raw meat and that's it. I'm not sure which model you are following, but the BARF model provides some veggie mush along with the meat, bones and offal. The Prey Model (which I follow) doesn't include the veggies. And it's not about just feeding one piece of meat, or just only one kind of meat. Variety, as well as amount and percentages of meat, bone and offal need to be considered too.

I would suggest that you do more reading online or look for reference books about raw feeding and decide which model you would like to follow. I joined a Yahoo group of raw feeders to get advice from and to answer all my doubts and concerns. It's very important that you know exactly what you're feeding and what to expect when raw feeding.

If you would like to know more about the Prey Model, I posted an introductory article on it here: http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=23594536
I have also posted an article on beginning raw feeding (for the Prey Model) here: http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=23620375

Hope that could help you get started on understanding more about raw feeding!

You're most welcome Hope Fifi loves her raw meals!

Haha, guess that's the way for you to introduce new meat for them then Once a while, maybe you could give them a bigger piece of chicken with bone to help them chew. Chewing bones help to scale their teeth, and since they self-regulate, over eating won't be a problem

There will always be two sides to a coin, as they say. It's really up to you as an owner to decide what is best for your dog. If you feel the best way to feed your furkid is kibbles, there is no reason for you to change it, right? As with all information gleaned from the Internet, we ourselves need to know how to 'filter' through these kinds of misleading information. Although I have no science-y articles or what not to back me up, I have been raw feeding Scottie and Kenji for more than a year. I don't only get my info from the Internet, but also books and fellow raw feeders who've been feeding for a longer time than me. These issues (exposure to bacteria and evolution of dogs from wolves) I think have been discussed time and time again from loads of people...it probably won't do us any good to argue over this either. It's only whether YOU yourself think it (raw feeding) is good or bad. I took the plunge to raw feeding, and have not looked back since...Scottie is doing very well on it, and I have no problems whatsoever with him on raw. My family has not have any illnesses from bacteria, and I didn't have to send Scottie to the vet for almost a year now. Compared to previous experiences, I would have to send Scottie to the vet every few months for something or other. Your call.


Same goes to these questions...it's been discussed in previous posts, so go back a few pages to read if you want. It's really up to you if you want to feed kibble or raw. Just make sure what you're feeding is balanced, and you're good to go

There is no big 'topic' about these things...it's mostly discussions with the other forumers here. But, FYI:

1) We don't feed COOKED chicken bones. In fact, I don't feed any kind of cooked bones to Scottie or Kenji. What they consume are raw (that includes meat, bones and organs, which includes liver as well). Raw bones are more pliable as opposed to cooked bones. Splintering and cutting through internal organs stuff probably are from cooked bones. I don't feed grinded bones either, because I follow the Prey Model diet which doesn't grind anything. Scottie and Kenji just chew through the bones (enveloped with meat) that I give them, so no issues there.

2) Raw eggs are suitable to eat. You've probably read about raw eggs causing our dogs to be unable to absorb biotin (or something like that), but that amount is very small. You would have to actually feed a large amount of eggs everyday to get to that point. I've fed raw eggs to Scottie before...he doesn't like them as much, and since it's not so much of a requirement to feed eggs, I don't feed them to Scottie which makes my job a bit easier. So, your call

3) Lamb/beef/pork bones are way too big for Scottie to consume, so I don't give him those. Best not to feed weight-bearing bones (read: leg bones) of these big animals. They are teeth-breakers. The biggest type of bone I've given to Scottie & Kenji probably would be pork ribs...but I don't feed that to them often either. Scottie & Kenji's sources of bone come from chicken, duck, turkey, fish, pork ribs, quail, and sometimes squirrel. You don't actually have to feed so much bone. I feed about 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs through time, so I don't worry so much about giving bones.

4) I have not tried replacing calcium before, so I think you need to read up on how to go about doing that. Like I said before, bones and organs are not the big percentage...meat makes up most of the Prey Model diet. Having said that, we'd still need to feed SOME bones and organs as they are important as well (even though in small proportions). I don't know which model you might be following, but this is what I've learnt from Prey Model feeding.

5) Liver is liver, whether it's from chicken or other sources. They all serve the same purpose in the animal, so what's so different from us feeding chicken liver or pork liver? Liver takes up half of the percentage in organs for the Prey Model (which means from the 10% of organs, I feed 5% liver and the rest are other organs like lung, spleen, kidney, etc)

This post has been edited by Rayne: Oct 26 2009, 10:39 AM