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 BOT on 4g15, Need ideas and opinions

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TSryan_hustler
post Nov 3 2008, 05:47 AM, updated 15y ago

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Hi guys,
I m currently in the planning stage of a bolt on turbo for a 4g15 efi engine on a proton wira. Im still in the designing and idea stage,just want to bounce some ideas about and see if its feasible and what are the modifications that need to be done.Im hoping more of you senior members,especially those with experience in turbos to give me some constructive comments.
Here are the parts im able to source if i decide to go ahead:
-TD04 single fin
-GSR intercooler
-Turbo manifold
-Intercooler pipings
-Exhaust downpipes and other connections
Ive friends in workshops who are willing to get the piping work and other connections done for very minimal,what im concerned in is the fuel supply requirements.
What i dont know is the stock 4g15 engines fuel pumps maximum pressure and the injectors max cc.
Besides that,whats an appropriate AFC that can be used effectively for tuning.(Currently looking into SAFC)

Please bear in mind that this is still in the planning stage and im just trying to gather as much information as possible.I dont really want comments like change your engine or dont waste your time as ultimately this is my decision,not yours and Im intrested in a BOT,not swapping my engine.All others are welcome to discuss,help,give constructive comments and learn together.
Thanx guys.

Forgot to add, intially im looking for a modest 0.3bar of boost.Sounds pathetic,but i wanna learn to walk before i can run..

(Any one with a BOT 4G15 who is willing to spare some time to show me his setup will be treated to some Starbucks and hailed as god biggrin.gif )

This post has been edited by ryan_hustler: Nov 3 2008, 05:48 AM
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 3 2008, 09:45 AM

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I have considered the pistons and head gasket,but the main reason they seem to fail is from detonation.I figured if i can get an adequate fuel supply and keep temperatures to a low with proper intercooling and suitable spark plug heat range,it wouldnt be a problem. Thicker head gaskets can reduce the compression ratio,which for a high strung turbo application would be a good idea,i just dont see the logic for one with what i want to achieve.

As for e-manage,yea i guess it has more points,but im not too versed in AFC's.Thanks for the feedback man.All points taken into consideration.
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 3 2008, 09:52 AM

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QUOTE(thelulz @ Nov 3 2008, 09:47 AM)
change your engine AND dont waste your time

or u enjoy conrod shooting out from your block?
*
ahh..an idiot.i was wonderin where they were..
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 3 2008, 10:23 AM

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QUOTE(thelulz @ Nov 3 2008, 10:14 AM)
so much effort on it..and stock 92 mivec or 93 dohc will still pass u like u never existed..not need to say gsr  doh.gif

the risk of getting conrod flying out...plus higher fc than gsr when using afc to tune fuel.. thumbup.gif

1 week = 3days car in workshop, 3days on the road, 1day being towed

all this happen to my fren who bolt on his 93 na  icon_rolleyes.gif
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That line says it all.Im guessin you have a 2fast 2 furious complex?
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 3 2008, 10:53 AM

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QUOTE(SleeplessEyes @ Nov 3 2008, 10:34 AM)
Hi Ryan.
Just go on with your project.

I had a member which even did BOTs on a unmodded, stock Nissan Sunny 1.5L block.Low boost of course smile.gif

But I think you need new, and bigger CC injectors to cope with the "boost on" fuel supply demand.
And you will need a new computer box, I dont think the standard Wira ECU can cope with the new,added increase of fuel supply demand and AFR.

All the best.
*
Hey bro, based on calculations, with 0.3bar, the hp will be border lining on 100hp.I have calculated the cc/injector for 100hp,prob is i dont know the original value to know if it can sufficiently meet the fuel demands.
As for computer box, im goin with a piggyback


Added on November 3, 2008, 10:55 am
QUOTE(thelulz @ Nov 3 2008, 10:30 AM)
if not for the performance why u want bolt on? for saving the earth? doh.gif

oh ya..not yet finish..enjoy the tok-tok-tok-tok con rod bearing sound  thumbup.gif

having oil in ur radiator is fun too..good luck getting that head gasket changed  notworthy.gif
*
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hey child,this isnt kopitiam la.. doh.gif

This post has been edited by ryan_hustler: Nov 3 2008, 10:55 AM
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 3 2008, 11:07 AM

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doh.gif I give up,just keep spamming child. doh.gif
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 3 2008, 11:15 AM

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Oh i forgot to add,BOV and variable fuel pressure controller. Dont know much about the latter,it doesnt function as a fuel pump right? only increase/ decrease the fuel pressure based on how much boost is produced?
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 4 2008, 12:34 AM

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QUOTE(the_catacombs @ Nov 3 2008, 07:02 PM)
vr interesting yet quite common project...
yeap, all the setup u mentioned feasible...
dont forget ur BOV... u need to stand out from the crowd and be noticed when u have a turbocharged engine... heck, even tiny L2s blowing their BOV a few times in a vr short stretch.... doh.gif  laugh.gif

btw, ur car is svdo rite??... safc wouldnt be helpful here i guess.... couldnt think of alternative fuel computer now which can "piggyback" ur svdo, unless u willing to go for standalone ecus... hehe...

compression ratio... ahh... as we all know forced induction engines need low compression... perhaps u can source for thicker head gasket... of coz if its made of metal would be definitely better.....

as for ur fueling... i would recommend u to get uprated injectors such as mivec injectors.... good to upgrade throttle body as well if it is allowable (since urs is svdo, i dont have much info on upgrading it)... oopss.... blush.gif  blush.gif

i think ur oem fuel pump is manageable... get a fuel pressure regulator as well....

as for boost level, try be conservative and run it at lower boost for sometime and see whats what... if everything goes well, slowly increase ur boost level moderately...

bot 4g15 mmc quite alot and i would say rather easy project.... but svdo, i'm not sure...
*
Haha sifus in the house..Not very keen on the BOV sound,might find a way to vent the pressure back to the intercooler..thats still in consideration,but not important,as long as i vent it someway.

Actually,why is it that SVDO is un-tuneable? piggybacks cant alter the signals or that the ecu will revert to standard tuning if the signals are not within its acceptable range?
Throttle body will remain stock for the moment.
Any idea about the rating on stock fuel pump and injectors? I have an idea how much i will be needing,i just dont know how much i have to begin with.

QUOTE(shinjite @ Nov 3 2008, 09:50 PM)
if everything is done right, you won't have reliability problems
*
nod.gif Which is why everything needs to be right!
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 4 2008, 01:28 AM

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svdo is the siemens ecu for the newer generation wira bro.

Bigger injectors and fuel pump i really want to know what the original values are so i can size an appropriate one with allowance for future mods.How to find out the stock values of fuel pump and injector size?
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 4 2008, 09:37 AM

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hey guys,seriousla..if you cant be helpful then better dont post at all.


Added on November 4, 2008, 9:38 am
QUOTE(coldfusionpower @ Nov 4 2008, 02:14 AM)
searching for the car stock spec or source workshop manual... i have a few proton workshop manual . but the one i had is around 5 years ago ..
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i have the colt lancer workshop manual..it doesnt specify there either..hmm.think ill go talk to some sparepart shop fellas later and post it here.

This post has been edited by ryan_hustler: Nov 4 2008, 09:38 AM
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 5 2008, 05:55 AM

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QUOTE(the_catacombs @ Nov 5 2008, 12:59 AM)
if u not keen of BOV sound, can alwiz plumb back the output of ur BOV into ur downpipe.... this minimizes the sound....

yes... svdo is tuneable... involves changing the parameters/codes inside the microprocessor.... perhaps proton has the device.... but plugging in piggyback ecu aint gonna work for svdo.... smile.gif
injector size...
4g15 SOHC >> 180 and 182 (latest) cc/min
4g91 DOHC 210cc/min
4g92 SOHC >> 180cc (Proton) 190cc (MMC)
4g92 DOHC Mivec >> 275cc
4g93 SOHC >> 210cc/min
4g93 DOHC >> 240cc/min
4g93T DOHC >> 390cc/min

IMO, injector size 275cc will be more than enough for u....  smile.gif
evo ecu unit would not suit a 1.5L turbocharged engine setup.... first and foremost, engine capacity already not same... whats more the amount of airflow and volume that passes through throttle body....

boosting 2.0bar for 4g15 gonna last u for A GEAR... haha...  laugh.gif
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Im considering plumbing it back into the intercooler intake,but that will depend on the runner length.If the path is not acessible,then vent to atmo oly.not a big issue.

About the injector, i asked the workshop guy he said factory injector is 150cc

based on calculations, cc/min =(xpected bhp x 0.55 x 10.5)/4

for stock @84bhp =120cc
with 0.3 bar @100bhp =145cc

if ur info is correct about the injector size (180cc), its more than sufficient for current boost requirements.If you dont mind me asking,how valid is this date? blush.gif

Care to elaborate on the bolded text bro?u mean reflashing the chip of swap it out for a diff set of maps? from what i learned (from you guys) stock ecu's cant be tuned,either get a piggyback or change to standalone.Other options would be swap the chip..

TSryan_hustler
post Nov 6 2008, 03:34 AM

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QUOTE(the_catacombs @ Nov 5 2008, 07:41 PM)
so, for svdo tuning better refer to the folks inside proton on how they tune the ecu... haha...

TS, ever consider swapping to supercharger??... u can jz use rising rate fuel pressure regulator.... jz like what powerzone did on their campro sc and 4g15 sc....

u'll reach max torque much early in ur powerband.... vr vr useful launching off traffic lights and zoom around town... kekeke....
*
Hmm,not too intrested in supercharging cuz it doesnt seem efficient (not in terms of power,but the fact that its belt driven saps the power straight from the engine)
But then again,thermodynamics and all taken into consideration,the backpressure from the turbine sitting in the exhaust system isnt 100% efficient either,its just the lesser of the two evils.Besides ever considered fabricating mounts to place the supercharger inline with the crank?theres very little room for error..

QUOTE(coldteaocs @ Nov 5 2008, 10:33 PM)
What TS wants is to mod step by step 1st, why don't you understand?it's even stated in bold and red colour  doh.gif
Wonder what you driving...

BTW, TS, 4G15 Auto here, interested on BOT for my wira as well, will keep an eye on this thread, haha...
*
BOT is not something i consider an easy project and im not really just gonna stick a turbo and go vroom,im more intrested in the idea behind it..working out the values,parameters and stuff.in the end of the day,im satisfied with any amount of improvement altho it may be insignificant to maybe a gsr or mivec user.im just trying to make a bit more out of what i have in a safe and reliable way..which is why im discussing it with other users and reading up on the concepts,the possible foul ups,and meeting other turbo and BOT users..


Added on November 6, 2008, 5:21 am
QUOTE(sleepwalker @ Nov 5 2008, 10:31 AM)
If you ask that mech to do the modification for you, you are going to be in a world of pain. Injector duty cycle has to be kept around 60%. Anytime it goes above 80%, it will start to overheat and jam. You can't run your injector duty cycle near 100% without anything exploding from your engine.
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To keep the duty cycle at 60% at max boost,the 240cc injectors fit the bill.I guess catacombs was right to suggestthe mivec injectors then..it will be runnug at 52% capacity..is this calculation right?

This post has been edited by ryan_hustler: Nov 6 2008, 05:21 AM
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 9 2008, 10:02 PM

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QUOTE(VT-Ten @ Nov 9 2008, 06:43 PM)
shame to those who doesnt understand TS' requirements. at the end of the day, it's the modding satisfaction that matters, its not about smoking vtec or mivec or GSRs.

most of the check points have already been mentioned by the sifus here. i hope they will continue to do so in a constructive and professional manner smile.gif

may i suggest you hybrid your TD04? change your hot side to something smaller, as you might suffer tremendous turbo lag.
adding a wastegate will also be helpful. not for the sake of annoying other drives on the road, but for the sake of maintaining the boost from the risk of blowing up your hard work.
have your calculated what is the best CR? stacking up gaskets may help, but you'll need a trustworthy mech to do it. never ask a child to do an adult's job.

lastly, may i recommend you a book to read? Maximum Boost, by Corky Bell. its a good book and it took me 4 months for kinokuniya to ship for me. the book is really relevant of what you plan to do. you might be able to get some tips from the book. google it to look at the contents that he's covering.

Good luck.
*
yup,i have it smile.gif

CR im not too sure bro.maybe you can advise.
Wastegate wise,my internal starts opening at 0.5 bar..im still meddling with the screw to get close to fully open at 0.3.if thats unsucessful,then an external is definitely necessary,only prob i cant find a 0.3 bar one! nobody runs boost that low..
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 20 2008, 11:09 PM

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sorry,TS has been overloaded with work! sleepwalker is staff? congrats smile.gif
TSryan_hustler
post Nov 28 2008, 01:49 AM

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QUOTE(jswong @ Nov 17 2008, 06:39 AM)
SVDO can't be tuned by people who are used to old piggybacks because they can't figure out closed-loop lambda-based ECU operation. Old MMC ECUs are lame. Misinformed people say they're "good" just because they're easy to be fooled by piggybacks. SVDOs are more advanced than MMC ECUs any day, that's why they're harder to fool and are "poorer" for tuning purposes.

MMC ECUs use mass airflow sensor to read the incoming air charge. Then, it determines the injector duty cycle based on the internal map. Easy as that. If you plug in higher flow injectors, your engine will run richer all the time. Plug in lower flow injectors, your engine runs leaner all the time. The mapping of MAF readout <-> injector duty cycle is static.

Traditional "tuning" on such ECUs involve only the interception of MAF output. An altered MAF signal is provided to the ECU to fool it into using a different injector duty cycle (by fooling the ECU into thinking there's more or less air than there actually is).

For SVDO ECU, it uses the lambda sensor for closed-loop operation at idle up to around 3500 rpm. Furthermore, it uses a MAP sensor that uses manifold vacuum to determine airflow.

If you intercept the vacuum signal to fool the ECU into thinking there's less air, the lambda readout will still see the actual air-fuel ratio. Within the closed loop mode, the injector duty cycle target is based on air-fuel ratio. If you wanna tune the SVDO ECU, you'll have to intercept the lambda sensor value from idle to 3500 rpm.

Above that, the SVDO ECU goes into open-loop mode, and functions similarly to the older ECUs.. by using a static injector duty cycle map for the MAP sensor inputs. It won't take into account the air-fuel ratio.

Hence, overall, you'll have to intercept the lambda sensor signal from idle to 3500rpm, and alter the MAP sensor signal above 3500rpm.

The SVDO MAP sensor in theory can detect up till 0.8 bar of positive pressure in the manifold. However, the output will be a full +5V back to the ECU. The SVDO ECU will see values like that as a fault condition. One solution is to clamp the output voltage with a zener diode so that the MAP sensor output never exceeds a certain point, e.g. 4 or 4.5 volts. That way, the ECU won't detect a fault condition. The disadvantage is that the MAP sensor response will be non-linear at higher manifold pressures, since we're cutting off the maximum output abruptly. Another solution is to use a voltage regulator at the MAP sensor input to reduce the input voltage from 5 volts to something like 4.5 volts. In effect, we're scaling down the entire range of output for the MAP sensor proportionately, so the sensor response will still be linear.
SVDO ECU has the added advantage of having a built-in knock sensor that ties back to the ignition advance mechanism (electronic ignition advance, not like in the older ECUs). Thus, engine knocking due to lean mixture can be mitigated by the SVDO ECU and it compensates by enriching the fuel mixture. However, I've heard that the knock sensor input isn't present on the 4G15, it's only on the Satria GTI's 4G93.

The closed-loop function can actually help somewhat. In theory, you can practically tune a turbocharged SVDO ECU without a piggyback and by using an AFR meter to check your air-fuel ratio. At above 3500rpm, the ECU goes into open-loop static map. During that time, adjust the fuel pressure regulator until the AFR shows a slightly rich value (e.g. 12:1 or 12.5:1 AFR). Some tuners will set the AFR as rich as 10:1 with piggybacks, which is quite unnecessary unless you're running big boost. With a low boost, a slightly rich AFR will do.

Below 3500rpm, regardless of the fuel rail pressure, the ECU will try and adjust the injector duty cycle to achieve a target AFR. In the case of SVDO ECU, its target isn't really stoichiometry.. it's a bit richer, at around 13:1 to 13.5:1 because a slightly rich mixture will burn cooler than a stoichiometric mixture. If the engine can handle the thermal load (which should not be a problem at low boost), you can just let the closed-loop mode sort out the injector duty cycle automatically.

SVDO tuning on a shoestring budget will thus probably only involve: MAP sensor clamp/regulator; adjustable fuel pressure regulator; uprated injectors (240cc should be fine for mild boost); and an AFR meter for ensuring your engine doesn't lean out.

For the BOV, venting off the excess air at such a low boost might hurt the engine response. And don't vent it into the intercooler piping, as that part of the air plumbing also has compressed air (roughly the same pressure as the vented air, so you'll just keep the intake side choked with no actual blow-off to relieve the pressure). Vent it back to the turbine's "cold" side (air filter side), i.e. send the vented air back into the air inlet of the turbine. This is the standard blow-off path used by stock turbo setups on light pressure turbo cars.


Added on November 17, 2008, 6:50 am

1 way is of course to use an external wastegate with a soft spring.. which I think is not so common. You'll vent off the excess exhaust gases into the atmosphere, so your car would be a pretty noisy machine with the wastegate dumping exhaust at 0.3 bar.. that would be pretty often!

The most cost-effective solution is to cut the stock actuator arm, and alter it. If you have a spring pressure gauge to accurately measure the amount of deflection required to produce the amount of wastegate opening (it's related to the actuator's diaphragm spring rate), then you can derive how much of the actuator arm you need to add to open the wastegate sooner. Longer arm = shorter travel to open wastegate = lesser pressure to open the wastegate = lower boost. Shorter arm = longer travel to open wastegate = more pressure to open the wastegate = higher boost.

Some people DIY to make the actuator arm length adjustable, by threading the cut actuator arms and then inserting nuts and an additional hollow sleeve.
*
Heres the updates:
sourced rising rate fuel pressure regulator
imitation bov
trying to source a 0.3 bar wastegate spring
in process of getting a 240cc injector

im intrested in what you said by intercepting the lambda sensor or O2 sensor.Most basic piggybacks intercept the map/maf readings and either provide a higher value to run richer or lower value to run leaner.The latter is for better FC since the svdo has detonation sensor (confirmed,but how effective im not sure)
What do you use to alter the maf/map and the O2 sensor as well?

TSryan_hustler
post Dec 4 2008, 06:23 AM

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Anyone can give ideas where to tap the water lines to and from? Ive checked the bot on a 4g15 mmc,the source is usually from the TB but for SVDO theres no water inlet.
TSryan_hustler
post Feb 12 2009, 12:52 AM

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most budget is DIY smile.gif
TSryan_hustler
post Jul 30 2009, 12:20 AM

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http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1011331
already discussed here smile.gif

 

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