i dunno man, to me that kind of reasoning, kinda sounds weak. no one's trying to take away your right to quit, but its more like "thats all it really meant to you?" where's the commitment mate? i dont mean to offend you with this post, but the mass exodus just leaves a bad taste to me.

This post has been edited by strife_personified: Sep 20 2008, 11:19 PM

to be completely honest, as i mentioned before all this stuff blindsided me as i just joined the clan for around 3 weeks now and suddenly this stuff happens. as for your comments, i believe you are talking about tomato? whereas elementels arguments are against lodeclaw kicking him out without any valid reason. two different cases in my opinion. true, you dont need a reason to leave. it just makes little sense to me.

as for the downfall of any organization, while leadership may sometimes be at fault, members also need to toe the line. unless you'd like to highlight any specific and exact examples.

this is just curiosity here, but were you in LYN++ before ezinger? i'm asking only as i've mentioned before, i've only been part of the clan for a limited period of time, so i have no idea who you are, if you were one of us. if so, do get all the facts from all parties before coming to any conclusions.

yes, sure you do. of course someone on the outside who probably never spoke to tomato regarding any of these has all the facts. i dont mean to blame anyone, but its inevitable. did it occur to you that the fact there is no fixed team is due to the lack of interest from the members themselves? or perhaps lack of organizing and information sharing at the grassroots? heck, when i joined practices, i was just asked to arbitrarily pick a team, and i had no idea at that point that i was being asked to choose between team A and team B. if you want to talk about leadership, lets address that tomato had a hands off approach, and the team leaders were the ones running the show. so who's really at fault? who is it that you're trying to blame? think about it.

i'm going to stop arguing here with you, cause its unproductive, and you're just trying to whatever you think is best for the tf2 community. kudos to you on that, and i mean it, its commendable, its something i aim for myself.

as for you elementels, i definitely dont hate you at this point. in fact i miss the entertainment you provide over mic chat. and as i said before, leaving before lode decided to kick you, it sounds like those "i'm feeling guilty" kind of arguments. and leaving because other so called "good" members are leaving, its like so what, let them leave la. i dont mean to disrespect them, cause they're still friends of mine, doesnt change the fact we're all disappointed with the way things turned out, but i suppose the question is, was your loyalty to the clan, or to any one member. im just annoyed with the reasonings and the timing at which you and many of those who are jumping ship chose, as if your resolution was just that weak. well, whatever, i guess. i wish you luck in whatever you do, wssx or not. whether i'm still your friend or not, thats up to you.

i really lol at you mate. reuben's post makes his view, and certain points of the events clearer. i'm glad he posted. but your reasoning is circular and fallacious, first blaming team leadership, when in fact the members that you are now referring to are in fact the de facto team leaders as opposed to the clan founders. it seems the "senior" members, that is the team leaders and whatnot, had their own reasons to leave, many interconnected with each other, one senior member still with the clan, and then you have the junior members leaving in fear of or because of the senior members. you may claim the root cause is due to tomato, but we all know the world isnt black and white, thus the blame falls on all those involved, whomever they may be. thanks for trying to act smart.

its not just you mate, frosty and commando claim they were kicked, so i attribute that to "because of the senior members"

but to quote you in an earlier post, you did say you quit because you didnt want to wait for lode to kick you, which sounds a bit like fear to me. not to mention all your previous posts contradict what you just said, aside from the not being much fun anymore part.

This post has been edited by strife_personified: Sep 21 2008, 04:28 PM

now i'm confused. are you saying frosty and commando also preemptively quit?

haha, i really liked this one. truthery to the core, brother.

as for ezinger, maybe your arguments not fallacious, but circular at best. please stick to your terms, you're confusing us here by changing the definition of team leader every few sentences. i'm not defending tomato's interaction, or lack thereof, with the clan. i'm against your blatant fingerpointing when in fact the whole reason something falls apart is ultimately because of many factors that tie in together. so what if tomato didnt do squat. the team leaders stepped up to the plate and organized stuff. kudos to them. things were fine, so then why again is there no Core team, as lexi complained about? why then aren't people showing up for training? the only time i saw less than the required amount of people for training was the last couple of weeks, and i cant say anything about before i joined, so i wont bother and will stand corrected if i'm mistaken in that regard. back to the questions, why did it continue to fall apart when the people working the machine called LYN++ were in fact some of those that left? can you pin any of that on tomato? especially since he wasnt directly involved? the stuff with reuben aside, since that was directly tomato related, i dont think so.

dont worry about me, i'm perfectly at home arguing with idiots. i'm one of the best, i dont even work up a sweat. but thanks for caring.