I feel free.

There are 2 parties: The Whacker, and The Leaver.

1st NO-NO: Whacker must not whack, whatever reason it is, it's wrong to start a fight. Unable to control your emotion is not a reason, it's an excuse.

Since the Whacker has such an obvious wrongdoing, he doesn't deserve any debate. He is wrong.

Now comes to the 2nd NO-NO: Leaver should not leave. Why?

1) If you sucked and losing the game, deal with it. You don't learn if you leave like that. Grow up and get matured.

2) If you sucked and your team is cursing you, deal with it. Live with the fact that you sucked, else train more, and you don't train yourself how to leave a game just because you sucked. Again, grow up and get matured.

3) You don't care if others pay to play, then you have to accept the fact that others don't care you pay to play too. So who's paying to play is not a reason to argue about.Remember this.

4) I don't agree with some who said that it's just a game, don't be serious. You don't generalize that quote to every game. Unless you're playing against the AI or 'The-Most-Not-Serious-Player-Wins' sort of game, you should be serious. Serious in terms of sportsmanship, not personal. By not having a serious sportsmanship mindset, it's a disrespect to others and a disgrace to yourself. Take an example in a football match, a player can be serious in tackling another player or serious in tackling the ball. It made the difference between getting a successful tackle or getting a red card.

5) If you really have an emergency, which I don't buy it at all because it's the rarest of reason, you've to figured out a way to leave properly, and not just leave like that. Find someone who's standing or not playing around you, kindly ask them to take your place as you've paid for it. I'm sure there is always someone who's willing to play. If he leaves after you, that's another case.

6) And finally, if you are on pre-paid game and your time is almost up, do not, I REPEAT, DO NOT join a multiplayer game. This reflects your ability to think as a matured person and not just some 'ah-who-cares? spoiled kid'. Either you topup your pre-paid to finish a game that you joined, or don't join at all. Do something else. Not realizing about that your time's up means you have time-management issue, it's not a reason, it's an excuse.

Maturity is what separates true-gamers from noob-losers. Not skills, not levels.

Not everyone can practices. That's correct. That's why we have matured gamers and noob gamers.

Nobody wants to have an issue with leavers. A leaver is already an issue himself or else the word 'leaver' wouldn't exist in the first place. When you join a multiplayer game, you take up a responsibility for being in the team. Before the game starts, other players would always keep reminding each other, "no leavers please". They already said "please". Which part of "please" or "no leavers" they don't understand? If you know you will leave if you lose, please say so before the game starts. I don't think anyone will let you in. That's why leaving is not accepted, and sometimes causes abrupt of emotions that causes fighting in real life, which of course, is childish.

Why leave when you're losing? Usually when my team is losing, there's a predicted loss, we can just tell the opponent "please end, we start another game". It's very likely that the opposing team will want to end soon, because they too, want to save time and start another game. However, when someone leaves the game, it's irritating because it shows disrespect to other players and a selfish act. If your tree/throne is gonna blow up, then it's acceptable to leave the game, but just when the opposing team is starting to push, or someone is having a Godlike, and someone else thinks his team has no chance to win suddenly leaves the game and causes his team to have even lesser chance to counter attack. Just because 1 player thinks selfishly to save his own time, it causes the rest of the players upset. I don't see why anyone like that deserves a 'kind' treat.

If a survey is done on the reasons leavers leave games, it's safe to say that 'emergency' has the lowest percentage. Here's the reason why most leavers leave, I'm sure most players that have experience with leavers agree:

1) Gets killed in early game, whether First Blood or not, leave.
2) Gets gangbanged, out of frustration, leave game.
3) Use a late game hero that needs farming, but being constantly hard-pressed and targeted, couldn't excel, thus leave game...
4) Lose in a team battle, leave.
5) Keeps getting killed, leave.
6) Accusing people of using maphack or just plain hatred of effective combos against him, leave.

These are all the common scenarios where we see people leave. Which point decides that the leaver's team is going to lose? No. Why couldn't the leaver just stick together and support his team? Why all the ego of quitting because of losing? Do you see footballers take off their boots and walk off the field when their team is losing? Do you see F1 drivers stop their car purposely because other drivers overtook him by a few laps? No. That's why I mentioned sportsmanship, otherwise DotA would not be competed in championships as an e-sport.

Let's think, people don't fight because they want to fight. If a leaver can be the cause to a fight, that means leaving is taken as an insult to others. Don't misinterpret me, I do not condone fighting whatsoever, but as any people know, when people fight, it means that the person has did something that he should not do otherwise. Although some people gets enraged easily, most of the time they do not beat someone for no reason at all. That's why some members in the thread said the leaver deserved it. They don't really mean he should be beaten, but by any means a leaver should be punished. Why do online leagues ban leavers? Do they not have logic? Hmm?



Just one question: Do you suggest that someone should only finish the game if they can win the game? Hmm?



Why do you like to attack individuals instead of debating on the issue?

Excuse me, I do not post if I don't have logic. I have no interest in flaming you Sylar, but you seemed to have interest in attacking other member's posts more than presenting your own points towards the topic. I'm certainly do hope that I don't have to start flaming.

This post has been edited by demonicangel: Sep 8 2008, 10:32 PM

Actually there is already a conclusion. Fighting is wrong. As many members agreed. It's just that some people want some 'attractions' by trying to protect the victim and argue that the victim has done nothing wrong. The victim needs no protection really, both did wrong, the leaver is ethically wrong, and the guy who started the fight is legally wrong.

I suggest this thread to be closed.

You have a point by saying that it's normal to get out of that situation. Simple, that guy stay until that game is over, then start playing either only with friends or AIs until he learns how to properly play a dota game without the need of leaving. It's also better for the player to stop playing dota because it's causing that much distress, and try to play other games like mmorpg. As long as he's not in a guild war, he can join and leave the game as often as he likes. Some games are just not meant for some people. Like how a pro basketball player is most likely cannot get into F1 racing. If someone can't really take on the challenge of dota, he should consider playing other games. At least he can find a game that suits him and does not cause the havoc of 'leaving' a dota game. Cheers~

Man, I've played dota since 5.84 and I've never experienced anything like your case. Don't call me a stereotype, but it's common sense for people to think that if so many people is against that someone, there is something wrong with that someone.



Yes you're correct. There is no reason at all to BEAT someone up, but it's acceptable for a leaver to be punished. It's just that some irresponsible and light-headed guys prefer to use physical violence as the form of punishment. I don't think a leaver should get beaten up, but he must be punished for leaving the game. It's the one of unwritten rules in the game of dota, and it's simply unethical.

p/s (off-topic): There IS a difference of the sequences in casting spells. You can find a thread about this in any dota forums. In your case, your teammate wants to you cast doom first because doom prevents the hero from using any skill/item, hence preventing any form of counter attack/escape. Since you mentioned that it's your experience, one should always learn from experiences. You should've listened to your teammate.

This post has been edited by demonicangel: Sep 11 2008, 12:26 AM

I have to agree with u. It's funny when someone argues so hard on something they regard as 'meaningless'. Funny things happen when people post in the forums just for the sake of posting.

LoL simonyw you're so right. Sometimes there are people who just don't understand what is 'ethical gaming'. When someone beats someone up, the person who's using physical violence is wrong, but that doesn't mean the person who gets beaten up is right either. Of course most people wants to win a game, but gaming is not about winning or losing. If it's only about winning and losing, then there will be no dota or any games other than 'rock, paper, scissors'. Whenever I'm losing a game in dota, I'll try my best to defend for as long as I possibly can. Of course I know my team has very little chance of winning, but some people don't understand the feeling of defending and keep defending until you finally lost the tree/throne and take honor for what you've done, that's defending to the last. The title 'Defense of the Ancients' was changed from many previous names to its current form, and it's used until today because of the meaning. You don't just jump into any game and say 'it's just a game'. That's such a pointless and obvious statement. Who doesn't know it's a game? Everyone knows. However if you jump into such conclusion, it's taken as a disrespect to the game and sometimes, to the extent of an insult to the fans of the game. Sometimes when I go to mamak stalls to catch a football game, I expect to watch it until the game is over, otherwise if I know I am too tired to watch it and unable to watch to the end, I wouldn't go in the first place. When some people see their team lost 3-0 at 70-ish minutes, and leave, I view those people in disgust. Those kind of people can change their idol team every now and then, because they only support who's winning. No sportsmanship at all, and they don't deserve to worship any teams. One season they may support Man Utd, and when Chelsea won the league, they support Chelsea in the next season. What a bunch of losers.

simon, leave him alone already, if we really should discuss about leavers in dota, why not someone create a new debate thread about "Leave a dota game. Right or wrong?" We'll carry our debates there. Talking about leavers in this topic is already going off-topic, and arguing with people who thinks there's nothing wrong when doing something wrong, sigh~

Excuse me, can you highlight which part of my posts did i mention that i support violence? I've already said many times, violence is wrong, so is leaving a dota game. Violence is LEGALLY wrong, and leaving a dota game is ETHICALLY wrong. I did not say a leaver should be punished by violence means, but he should be punished in any other way EXCEPT VIOLENCE. I also want to make it clear that there are people who could not control their emotions, thus can easily resort to using violence against other people. As we know these kind of people exists everywhere, why the hell should we do anything that can potentially enrage them? Is it for ego? Is it because of "Oh, I'm LEGALLY RIGHT, whatever I do, is none of anyone's business, even if it's downright annoying!" That's just plain egoist and stupidity. Even if you know law is on your side, that doesn't mean you should do anything to 'taunt' them. Humans are social creatures, what is the right thing to do isn't only limited under written laws. There are a lot of unwritten laws that we should follow. A guy should not love more than 1 woman at the same time, it's not a written law, but everyone knows it's right! It's one of the ETHICS in relationship. Gosh!

Okay, let's just simulate a scenario, again let me clarify, I do not support violence, please read. Here's the scenario: You join a dota game with 9 strangers as usual. One of your opponent/teammate is sitting right next to you. Let's just say that guy is a retard, someone that likes to use violence to solve problems, and is not afraid of the cops. As he sees you join the game, he suddenly speaks to you, "Hey kid, do not ever leave this game, or I'll beat you for real. Got that?" What's so difficult about not leaving a game? Anyone can easily finish a game without leaving. Unless you really want to challenge the guy by thinking 'So what? I like to leave the game. I pay for this, I want to leave as I wish, and even if I want to leave just to annoy the hell out of you, so what?'. If you have a mindset like this, I feel sorry for you, your ego is so full that it will backfire on you someday, somehow.

This post has been edited by demonicangel: Sep 16 2008, 12:48 AM

Yeah, chances are you get beaten up first, because I've said he's not afraid of the cops and he's a retard. Why do you want to challenge a retard.

Talking about ban list, it reminds me of ban lists created for leavers and players that don't obey to the game's 'unwritten' rules. Perhaps you should tell the leavers, "You want DotA to be the new game added to the ban list?"



It's not up to me to decide how to punish them. Even if nobody can think of any, does that mean they can leave as they wish?

This post has been edited by demonicangel: Sep 16 2008, 03:09 PM