Ok, let's say you a jamming with your band. And you, as the lead guitarist, have forgotten the solo part. So you will have to make some random solo out of the chords. I'm pretty sure many guitarists out there like Eric Clapton or Saul Hudson do not memorize their Wonderful Tonight or Sweet Child O mine solo parts. Sometimes during live you can see they create some solos impromtu (improvise - is this what you call) slightly different from their recorded ones. Another example will be the song No One live during the latest Grammy Awards where John Mayer popped out during the ending part with some sweet solo.

So my question is, how do you do that? Do I have to know ALL the scales from fret 1 until the last fret (Those majors,minors,pentatonics,harmonics, blah blah blah, you name it ). Let's say an easy song Pearl Jam - Last Kiss with the chords G - Em - C - D and I would like to do a solo part of it. Does that mean during G chords I would have to play a G major scale, during Em, i have to do E minor scale and so on?

And as a beginner, what crucial scales I should master first?

-p/s : Do not flame me for not looking for the solution in the google. Sometimes it just gives me some answers far from my questions. A newbie guitarist just hoping to improve himself

This post has been edited by ChipZ: May 29 2008, 02:16 PM

Pentatonics are your best friend. They are MINE......

But yeah, Learn the major scales and the minor scales........ very important.

You USUALLY solo in whatever key the song is based on. For example, Sweet Child O' Mine is in Em, so any Em solo can be done.....

Yea, this is 1 more thing. How do you know what key a song is in? Is Em scales catagorized under minor scales or what? Sorry for the stupid question but I am really new to this.

Usually minor scales for songs which is in minor key like what blacktrix just pointed out, the song plays in a minor key, and major scales for songs major key like Gmajor.

But the opposite may happen as well, in blues for example, they are played in 7th chords. But we use Pentatonic, which is a derivation of minor scales.

Just master your minor and major and pentatonic, those will get u a long way in improvisation. Eric Clapton is famous for using alot of major scales and pentatonic and minor, but he can make good solos with it.

i thought i wrote a short lesson on this before in one of the threads. (lazy to search though)

diatonic scales can be helpfull too

just bang out lots of chromatic stuff and call it jazz

LOL

f*** the fella who criticise them by saying this is art in its highest form..

usually,

I would start with an suspension 9, so it starts with an upper auxelilary note then u can do a pentatonic scale up to a suspension 4 of the next chord and do a desending scale down and later doing an anticipating and accepted passing notes accross the note passage while having appregios with minor sounding not belonging to the key of the chord.

wah if u explaining to a newbie dont use musical tern
even i dont understand
hope u make it more simple

really way too deep for me to understand

Lool, thanks for your comments but it makes no difference from what i have googled from with all those ????? terms. Hope someone wouldnt mind to explain to me in simple english words form.

LOL

in other words, practice and listen to more solos will develop ur own repertoire..

i sorta get what icypetals is trying to say but im not sure if he/she is trying to be sarcastic or seriously trying to help. either way, i have to disagree as what you suggested is very 'formula' based and cant be used in all situations. its like saying, play this note then this note then this. end of the day thatll just give you the same solo for all your songs.

back to the question, are u asking how to play chords with a clear melody line going on at the same time? or just a typical guitar solo?

if its the former, what i would recommend is to be able to play diff shapes of chords and able to play them at anywhere on the fretboard. with that down, now you can focus on changing your left hand fingering where you can add(or substitute) additional notes on the higher octaves (usually roughly on the G, B or high E string) to add in the melody line.

hope you get it. its quite hard to explain if i dont show you with a guitar

I think what he meant was how to solo and improvise with a song like other guitarist, making impromptu embellishment while sounding correct and musical, not random and wild.

Am i rite TS?

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Added on May 30, 2008, 12:55 ammaybe not random and wild, tht is subjective.. more to like doesnt sounds rite to his ear. Ah, u guys will get the drift.. ;-)

This post has been edited by Mr. Z: May 30 2008, 12:55 AM

Yes, exactly what I am talking about. Doesnt have to be so complicated

actually, you can divide the process of improvisation :

1- find out the key of the part you're gonna improvise on.

Usually, in typical rock/pop songs, there is only one key per song.
The "key" means the scale that contains all the notes of all the chords used in this "part". For instance, a song with the chords G / C / Em is in E minor. It's quite easy to find the key. When beginning, you can just write down the notes used for each chord :
G major : G - D - G - B
C major : C - G - C - E
E minor : E - B - E - G

So you see, only the notes E - G - B - C - D are used.
Now, let's find a scale that contains those notes... You should of course check out some websites, the main scales can be found everywhere, even on wiipedia

There is a E minor scale, and the G major scale. Both of them uses the same notes.

The key of this song is G major, or E minor, depends on which chord sticks out more.

2 - choose a scale to play on.

You shouldn't necessarily choose the G major scale to solo : this scale contains 7 notes, where as only 5 notes are used in the chords.
G major scale : G - A - B - C - D - E - F#

When you're gonna hit the A or F# in the solo, they're not gonna be backed up by any chord. They're going to sound "exotic". Not necessarily bad, if you manage to fit them into a good melody.

But you could simply decide to play a sub-scale, such as the E minor pentatonic, that contains only E G B C D. No risk, the bet is safe.

3 - play the right notes from the scale at the right time.

During each chord, you don't have to play the five notes of the pentatonic scale : you could just focus on the 3 notes of the current chord. Because playing a 3-notes solo over one chord is very restrictive, you'll soon start to feel you could also add other notes. Notes which are in the pentatonic scale or not...

4 - trust your ears..

don't get stuck into a scale, try to ear a melody and play it.
a scale is just a backbone, the skeleton, that you know you can count on but if you play only those notes... then you're solo is goin to be too blend.

As a beginner, do steps 1 and 2, first. Learn the main scales, how they sound, etc. It takes about 1 or 2 years
Then step 3 and step 4 will come naturally, after listening to CD's, jams, etc.

thanks pix. im too lazy to type that out, and u made it very clear. *respect*

for most mainstream stuff, pentatonics and dorian (or what mode is G over A?) modes are enough. It also helps if you know the song and already have a tune in your head that will fit the song. Randomly applying pentatonics and modal stuff will kill the music. Although theoretically correct it is nonsense. It's like making a sentence with perfect grammar but no meaning. So it really actually all starts in your head.

if you're a noob like me.... start with a slide or pick scrap.... then pick some good notes with pinch harmonic, and end with a dive bomb

seriously... even if i understand that you need to use scale that fits the song key.... i'm totally lost about moving the scales "up" or "down" or play what after another.... damn

EBP, thanks i remember the long post you've typed one day... it was very interesting, and went deeper than mine. too bad it didn't get sticked up ! (lousy moderators at that time )

This post has been edited by Pix: May 31 2008, 09:12 PM

Pix, thank you very much for your detailed explanation. It is very kind of you to spend some time to type such a long passage to teach a noob like me. I find it very useful. Thanks

Chipz, the only way to thank me is to send me a .mp3 of one of your improvised solo in the near future... then i'll see if you made good usage of my post !

*religiously reads Pix's posting #18*

time for a LYN jam...?

if only u are around.

nah i guess everyone is busy. the last one got canceled. not enough guitarist. lol.

oh... you guys are that motivated about showing off your skills ? well, if some others have time..
it's not a LYN jam actually, more like a small piece of backing track (1 minute ?) , and each of us record his own stuff.

1 question here...

Do pentatonic scale can be used for all kind of song??

IMO, pentatonic can be used in most songs with proper variations.
but if you ask me what does my "most songs" means, honestly, i dunno. coz i know how to play pentatonic scales before i know it is pentatonic scales. i just ripped off the variations from MTVs, after proper research on scales then only i know i was playing pentatonic and major scales all along...
-.-|||

So let say the song is in scale A minor or major we can use proper pentatonic scale??

How bout chord progression de??

Whats that?

dmc,

yes, most modern music : pop, rock, RnB, folk, etc that plas on the radio are using pentatonic scale. sometimes, they use major or minor scale, but it just means they add 2 notes on top of the pentatonic (7 notes in major/minor scales, and 5 notes in pentatonic).

So if the 7 notes of the major/minor work, then the 5 notes of the penta will obviously work.

Now, if you listen to jazz, instrumental guitar (vai, satriani, etc), you'll see that the pentatonic will only take you so far.

songs in A minor can use the A pentatonic minor scale, or the D pentatonic major (they're using the same notes).
songs in A major can use the A pentatonic major scale, or the E pentatonic minor (they're using the same notes).

nobody can go wrong with pentatonics...

But of course it's pretty basic stuff... from pentatonics, can add a bit here and there.. a lot of variations can be done...

Sorry for this question but how do you determine the key of the song? One of my friends told me that it can be determined by the first guitar chord of the song. Eg if the first chord of the song is C, then it is in the key of C. Is that really so??

wow thanks all nice info

ipohboy, isn't there an answer to this question in the post #18 of this thread ??

Wow,this is a nice thread.

May I know,how do you know what type of scales to put into a certain chord progression?I thought you could just insert any type of scales into a certain chord progression as long as it's in key?


This post has been edited by freakfingers12: Jun 4 2008, 10:42 PM

A pentatonic minor = D pentatonic major? I think it should be C pentatonic major instead
A pentatonic major is equal to F#m pentatonic instead.

haha. yeah! shows supercolossal read in detail. lol

that was just a test sharp eyes you got, man

Someone told me...

Bout major n minor pentatonic...

If u playing A minor pentatonic...

Move ur finger 3 o 4 fret above will give u A major pentatonic...

Dont understand this fundamental la..

Explain me...

Haha... thanks, just trying to share the little things that I know.

Take for example an Am pentatonic shape at the 5th position which I think most people know. To get to the corresponding A major pentatonic shape just move everything up by 3 frets which will being you to the 2nd position. Vice versa if you are in a major pentatonic position just move the whole shape down by three frets to get it's corresponding minor.

But bear in mind these two scales are usually applied in very different keys for typical songs ie. A major and C major (A minor pentatonic), so this is just something to help us find positions on the neck easier without memorizing too many positions.




This post has been edited by supercolossal: Jun 5 2008, 09:38 AM

Ok now kinda getting it...

Studying lick for solo use...

Cheers~

A minor can use with C
what about A major?
how to determine?

A minor C major
B minor D major
C minor Eb major
D minor F major
E minor G major
F minor Ab major
G minor Bb Major

A#minor/Bb minor C#/Db major
B#/C minor D#/Eb major
C#/Db Minor E major
D#/Eb minor F# major
E#/F minor G#/Ab major
F#/Gb minor A major
G#/Ab minor B major

not sure got mistake or not

A minor is From C major scale but the 7th note of A minor adds a SHARP(1 fret higher)
Eg
Cmajor: C D E F G A B C
A minor(same scale from c major but starts with A and the 7th note is shapen(1 fret higher):
A B C D E F G# A

Most of the time (my uneducated guess is more than 95% of the time), the key a song is in can be determined by finding the first chord at which the lyric starts. It is not uncommon that intro to songs may start with different chords (ie not the key of the song). So to be on the safe side, find the first chord at which the lyric kicks in.

FYI, composers usually need a guide to which to compose the melody of a song. Thus they use the key of the song as a guide. From there, they can expand/experiment etc with different notes.

If Im wrong, kindly correct. Tq

banzai,

that's interesting, and that sounds very logical, yet i think that great musicians actually start with the melody in their head, and then harmonize it.
but both are possible, of course.

I occasionally use C major scale, or D major. Maybe local song always use C major as thier basic scale. My dad are a lot better at this, I'm still picking up nonsense that he is spouting( don't get a thing about theory )

May I correct something here?
It's by moving the minor pentatonic shapes 3 frets DOWN that will get you the major pentatonic. Vice Versa. For better understanding of theory, study modes of the major scale.

This post has been edited by led_zep_freak: Jun 10 2008, 12:36 AM

...or just play them loud, and you'll hear which minor sounds like which major !

hi freaky zippy !

i didnt read the whole thing, only a few of the first posts, so my question is, for ppl like me, who didnt get any guitar lesson from pros, meaning i dont know all these E minor, G major, minor scale major scale thingy, how do we do it ? Or are we doomed forever ? lol

munky, if you know how to read for 4 minutes, can stand to spend some time finding the notes on the guitar (15 minutes) and put the content of this thread into practise (10 minutes), then you're not doomed.
altogether, it should take about 29 minutes.

you can split it in 3 days, that's 9 minutes and 40 seconds per day.

(let me add this : )

are you up to it ?

This post has been edited by Pix: Jun 11 2008, 03:25 AM

Just happy to share what I've learned from one of my guitar tutor, but Im being conservative, thus I put the 95%.
What my tutor explained if I remember correctly, it is around 99% of the time one can usually find the chord of a song is in by finding the first chord at which the lyric kicks in (not the intro of the song).

This post has been edited by Banzai_san: Jun 14 2008, 02:26 PM

banzai_san, i trust 110% of what you say it's an useful information, as long as you listen to songs with lyrics (i listen to satriani, vai, freak guitar, christophe godin and ron thal.. not much lyrics there...)

in the previous post i was merely commenting on the creation process : melody first or chords first ?

I think for a lot of veteran composers, usually melody comes first. Musical keys are just guides or structures/forms of the music/song. Just like composing an essey/story, the key a song is in is like the basic storyline. If the essay/story has a weak storyline or weak structural form (eg story going round and round with no purpose) readers would get confused and the impact of the story may be reduced.

Similarly, the key a song is in provide a guide/reference_point for the composer to compose the melody so that the melody does not go (too far) astray. A song that frequently strays too far from its key, usually its melody has less impact or less imprint in the listeners ears. That is why, a lot of hits songs have simple melody (but milage may vary according to listeners different musical taste ) and at times the melody repeats again and again, so as to imprint the melody firmly into her listeners ears.

That how I understand it anyway.

---

Added on June 14, 2008, 5:06 pm+1 ... agree.
Just to add, too much pentatonics... I worry the music/solo/licks may sound too generic

---

Added on June 15, 2008, 12:04 pmJust few things to add on soloing and scales.

Me like other beginner guitarists, rely on the scales for improvising solo. But I heard from a pro/advance guitarist that when he's soloing, he does think (much) of scales. Rather he lets the melody "dictates" his solo.

Thus, IMHO for a beginner, chords comes first. For advanced guitarist/musicians... melody.

This post has been edited by Banzai_san: Jun 15 2008, 12:04 PM

Aminor related major is Cmaj
its just if its minor u wana find the related major
put your pointer finger on the A note, for example Aminor, put ur pointer on the 5th fret 6th string(A note), and each other finger on the next frets, M-finger on the 6th fret, A-finger on the 7th fret, and the last pinky on the 8th fret, where 8th fret on the 6th string is a C note.

If you wana find the related minor of a major key. Put ur pinky on the major key and move back 3 frets same style as explained above. the formula is just if you wana find the major pur your pointer finger on the minor and move 3 frets up, and if you wana find the minor, put your pinky on the major and move 3 frets back using other finger.

Why use pinky and pointer. Cause if you use pointer by chromatically placing the rest fingers on each frets surely will get the major. vice versa for the pinky. ok i think its kinda hard explaining like that, its nothing much actualy, just a formula to remember minors and majors scale.
just 2 cent..

This post has been edited by leroy87: Jun 15 2008, 01:59 PM

practise your natural/ pentatonic scales.

thatsound, u just revived a year old thread with a one liner which means nothing.

natural pentatonic scale?!
natural WHAT pentatonic scale? i think you meant natural MINOR pentatonic scale.
natural means nothing on its own. pentatonic scale simply means 5 note scale.

it was just a way for him to coverline la.
all his other posts in like 10 diff threads were advertising his sales thread until the ban hammer of doom came.

well, thanks to him i came upon this thread and learned some new things today
i didnt know pentatonic scales were used so often in solos, have to work on those i suppose.

since it's back up, may i ask something here...

i've been playin some time,i know i'm in key, but i know i sound like trash at the same time....coz when i play i realised i do not have much melody...

1. and so i've been trying, to break up my melody into chords...but i always find that i don't have time to 'catch up' to the next chord, and i end up lazy and just continue trashing the same minor pentatonic or the occasional major/major pentatonic... question here is, how do you guys manage to 'catch up'?

2. i came across about these modes too... but how and when do i apply it? like when a C chord is playing, besides playing C pentatonic, or C minor pentatonic, or C arpeggio, or Am pentatonic...can i actually use C lydian? or do i use F lydian (coz F lydian is in the key of C) coz when i do that, sometimes i feel it sounds wrong...maybe coz i'm still noob and didnt apply it propertly?

any help would truly be appreciated...thank you...

Don't throw in modes just because they are "in key" or people say that they are "correct". Have the melody in your head before you bring it out on your fingers. That's actually the most important.

Modes, arpeggios, intervals...etc these are all just to build your music "vocabulary". They're just helping you to know what lydian sounds like, what mood a 4th, 5th or 6th gives...etc. In the end it's the putting all of it together sensibly and creatively to express what you want to say that makes it work. Jamming out random notes will never get you anywhere EVEN if you use the pentatonics which is "correct" all the time.

You know how many people say "Don't speak without thinking", it's kind of the same with music.

yo bro..modes huh?..there r seven modes for each note..if u play C as the key it doesnt mean u can juz simply throw some C lydian solo..it depends oh the chord contructions..if u want to play Lydian listen a lot from steve vai..but 4 me, just combining diatonic n pentatonic wit some bluesy scales will also produce a great solo..if u really want to apply modes..u need to be really understand what u r playing..the structure of the song..(chord construction+time signature+dynamic of the song)...takes time as well..

This post has been edited by hidzwan: Mar 21 2009, 04:59 PM

improvisation over chords, or so called solo, means you have to compose a melody on the spot. so it doesn't make sense to just spam notes, right? when you compose a song, would you spam notes? the differences between composing and improvising is just that you don't have much time during improvisation as you have when you're composing - but both shares the same goel, to create something melodious.

there're a few approaches on how to learn improvisation, which i don't want to touch that now. but i do want to voice out about knowing the scales before you're able to improvise - that's basically what being taught in malaysia, which to me, is a wrong approach. you gotta know the harmony, instead of scales. if you only know scales, you won't go far as you'll tend to stay within the scales. but if you understand the harmony, you can start to explore many, many things.

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Added on March 21, 2009, 10:42 pmactually, i wouldn't say there's minor and major pentatonic, cause they just started on different note, but they share the same 5 notes.

the real minor pentatonic, imo, is the "japanese" pentatonic. try this A B C E F ...

This post has been edited by little ice: Mar 21 2009, 10:42 PM

are you just saying that just to prove me wrong? haha.
well its up to you on whatever you want to say.
imo just because it share the same notes doesnt mean theres no major/minor element to it. A minor pentatonic first two notes A C <- C is a minor 3rd. A major pentatonic: A C#(major 3rd) and so on. so what do you do when someone asks you to play the pentatonic scale? which do you choose? see.

i might be wrong, since ure the full time musician with paper qualifications and all.

it depends on how you look at it. i was just voicing out my own opinions...

both of u are correct.

it's the same, but also different.

they are the same. of course A minor pentatonic notes = C major pentatonic notes. E minor = G major.
They are related major minor of course.

but they are also different.
put on blues cadence on A minor u got Am-Dm-Em
on C major u got Cmaj-Fmaj-Gmaj

not same anymore.
and A minor pentatonic will never same with A major pentatonic ofc.
but it is the same with C major pentatonic.

y argue things because u look at it from different perspectives?
made me remembered of 3 blind mans with an elephant story..

---

Added on March 23, 2009, 5:50 pmi second this opinion.
and there are also guitarists who just play their scale over progression or chord vamp.
they are not actually melodically phrasing.
ended up their solo/improvise turn out to be flat, less dynamic and not interesting.

This post has been edited by m3er: Mar 23 2009, 05:50 PM

haha. we were not argueing la.
its just a discussion, with each of us bringing up our own points. my point was simply that if you mention a pentatonic scale, also do mention what kind it is.

anyways, lets move on.

fuhh..M3er mcm pro ...

anyway , i think by explaining C major scale = A minor scale , because they have the same notes..
is the best way to explain to beginners ..
there are many points why C major is not = A minor scale ,but if you start going into it..
you sure make your students confuse as hell ..

no lah, i would die in shame playing infront of u guys.

agree, and that is not yet going into modes

how about arpeggio guys?
ive been stuck with pentatonic all the times until i realized my ad lip solo are not improving at all.
haihhh.. need to practise more as im now amazed by sweeping technique.
my finger seem not fast enuff..LOL

p/s: im newbie...plz dont shoot me

thanks guys, i'll try to work on my melody...

use the metronone?

y everytime people mention about apreggio, sweep picking comes into mind?
isnt that there are also other ways to play the 3 - 4 notes?

well arpeggios are just notes of a chord played seperately.. but most guitarists usually associate it with sweep picking and often overlook plucked/picked arpeggios..

Any tips to get out of the pentatonic rut? Most my improvs are bluesy. I want to make it sound more metal. The closest I can get are those Kirk Hammett licks..

oppss sorry guys.
its not personal actually.
im just kinda of trying to improvise on my solo.
been stuck with pentatonic with a lil bit of scaling.

sweeping for me need to be accurate n fast, and its a good technique to improve my fingering...dats is y i mention about sweeping.
im also amazed on classical guitar method on arpeggios.

p/s: im noob n got a lot more to learn from others...so dont shoot me

and there is also legato to play appreggios, easiest example is the outro of hotel california solo.

i've been using the minor pentatonic scales for years and years and my favourites are A,D and E pentatonic scales...but i realized it can only bring u so far....gotta learn the modes too...and of course the Major scales.....but its kinda difficult if u're learning urself(i'm a self taught guitarist myself)....but im grateful to have found forums like this that can expand my knowledge in guitar playing....when i first started, i wanted to be like Slash so i studied him extensively(even bought a book entitled "Learn How To Play Like Slash")...thats where i learn about pentatonic scales...but then i discovered Mark Tremonti (i've been a fan of him since Creed era but never knew he could play awesomely) and studied him too....he uses alot of modes(or modal????not sure about the term) and it really helps with the soloing....but apart from learning these terms/theories/scales or watever to help construct ur solos, the most important thing is to play by heart(feel)...too much technicality is not so good either IMHO....music is about expressing urself.....

just my 2 cents

rock on!!!!!

Hi all, great to see an old thread getting re-born !
Anyone interested in soloing must buy the magazine called "Guitar Techniques". Each month brings amazing eyes (and ears-) opening approaches to soloing, that helps breaking out from the pentatonic licks.
With just one issue, one can spend one year studying it

PIX!!!!!!
welcome back!

or u can visit ultimate-guitar.com and go thru the column section and find a user by the name of ze_guitarist....he did a lot of articles on how to play the guitar from novice level to advance level....there are lessons on diatonic scales, pentatonic scales, major scales, minor scales, how to find a scale of a chord...etc......its very good and easy to understand too

hey, you're a mod ! congratz.
i'm going for vacations in malaysia in 2 weeks I just can't wait to feel the dampness of the air and the durian smell !