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 Blatter seeks quotas, Are English teams being victimised?

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TSDuke Red
post May 8 2008, 11:19 AM, updated 18y ago

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What do you make of this? I have mixed thoughts at the moment. I'll try to sum them up into point form?

1) It seems a little unfair as not much was made of it when Italian or Spanish teams dominated Europe at some point. Why only now?

2) Is it the fault of the English that their league is the most marketable and therefore most profitable at the moment? Should other leagues instead not look at it from more of a business standpoint now? Real Madrid are government funded and didn't make the last four so is money really everything?

3) I do agree however that English clubs should have a number of homegrown players. It will help English players develop and clubs will also have their identities intact.
TSDuke Red
post May 8 2008, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 11:39 AM)
And saying that the other leagues should be looking more from a business point of view is just ignorant when the fact is they have but they just can't compete on the same level (mainly because of the penetration that English football has in Asia)
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And what is this due to? It is merely a geographical thing? Language? Not that we listen to what players say on the pitch. Why has English football penetrated the Asian market in the way it has? Are you yourself ignorant enough to think it's because of good luck? Is it purely coincidental that English games are scheduled at hours that are prime time here?

Years ago we got to watch 2 week old highlights of the Serie and English league. I was of course fan of Liverpool but also followed Inter Milan. There were no live telecasts and highlights were I repeat, 2 weeks old. Then came Dunhill who sponsored the "Road to Wembley" games, screening FA Cup Finals. Since then, clubs in England and the English FA identified the potential it had in Asia. Yes I am ignorant so please oh great one point out what initiatives were made by the La Liga or Serie to penetrate the Asian market ? It's the reason I don't follow Inter Milan anymore. Till today though I still remember the likes of Giusuppe Bergomi, Aldo Serena, Walter Zenga, Lothar Mattheus, Andreas Brehme and Juergen Klinsnmann running about.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 8 2008, 12:04 PM
TSDuke Red
post May 8 2008, 01:15 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 12:13 PM)
Aren't we getting live telecasts for Italian games now? Isn't that better than watching 2 week old highlights? So you saying you don't follow Inter now is just an excuse if u ask me.


Well I didn't ask you. As I've mentioned, the English FA and clubs have identified the potential of the Asian market and are whoring themselves here if I can use that word. If the Italian and Spanish teams don't follow suit, is it the fault of the English? Obviously timing alone isn't the issue then. You can't pick of one of my points because as I've mentioned, there are other factors. Why not consider my argument as a whole? Other factors to consider like brand building perhaps? What about setting up academies in the East to cultivate interest? Developing their own English language programmes like Red TV? I'm not giving excuses as to why I don't follow Inter play anymore. I identified more with the Premiership because of the efforts they have taken to capture the Asian audience. It made me want to find out more about Liverpool and follow them.

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You could argue about the timing of Spanish games but some of the Italian games are not scheduled that late. Let me ask you then if Italian and Spanish games were scheduled live on primetime here would you choose to watch them over EPL games?


No, for the reasons given above. In summary I follow the English league because more people talk about it and I see it everywhere. I am a victim of commercialism. A glory hunter in the context of football leagues if you will but that isn't the question. I sold my soul but only because the devil came knocking.

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Why did ESPN Starsports invest so much on EPL coverage (Football Focus, Football Crazy, etc are all mainly EPL shows) while the other leagues barely get a mention? That's because of the market here. It's the same why there are more Spanish programmes over in South America. There are special cases of course like Japan where Real Madrid has a big following.


When you say, "it's because of the market here", what do you mean? I'd go out on a limb to say viewers all across Asia, to as far as the middle east probably follow the English league more than any other league. It may be an assumption but it's a safe one from what I can tell. How have the English influenced them? I see you connection between Spain and South America but how about England and the Middle East?

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Edit: Duke I know I probably pissed u off when I called you ignorant. But I get just as irritated whenever someone claims that "RM is funded by the govt". For someone who always encourages people to do their own research with the availability of the Internet, I was abit disappointed. If it offends u I'll take it back.
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At any time I'm wrong, I'd gladly admit it. I've always asked for your opinion on the La Liga even on other threads. From what little I can comprehend, Real Madrid's presidential elections are carried out with the promise of bringing in bigger stars and managers. It's how the garner votes from what I can see. Even successful managers like Del Bosque can get the sack if he doesn't have the backing of the president and a new one promises more. Correct me if i'm wrong.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 8 2008, 01:16 PM
TSDuke Red
post May 8 2008, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 01:45 PM)
Again you are assuming alot of things here. I won't speak for the other teams but Real Madrid have toured Asia and done their fair share of brand building in Asia (maybe not so much in Malaysia). But their market is stronger over in the Americas. The fact that they have set up Realmadrid TV in English in US proves so. And I can tell u that despite the influx of money coming to the EPL, we are one club that can still compete with the English clubs (Our brand value is the  highest in the world). Where the Spanish and Italians have paled in comparison to the English is their league federation. The English league is run miles better than their continental counterparts.


What about the other clubs in Spain? I'm sure it has to be a concerted effort? There isn't a point in identifying with just one club and knowing nothing of the rest (though I'm sure there are Premiership fans who are the same). Manchester United were arguable the first club to really penetrate the East but only after the Premiership had gained a fairly large international following. In essence, it was a safe gamble. Although they may not do that well in selling original merchandise, they definitely have a large television following. Their efforts were also supplemented by the FA who has in recent times begun to organise mini tournaments or promotional matches here. Clubs like Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich (ok so it was because of Proton) or some less fancied sides that have played here. They also have the "Legends" tour where former English league greats drop by for autograph session or whatever. My point is that there has been a massive effort not just to cultivate interest in English clubs, but in the English league in it's entirety.

My intention is not to claim that one league is another. To put things back into context, it's to suggest to Mr. Blatter than the success of English clubs is attributed to the fact that it is marketable, and thus attracts big sponsors and investors. Why it's marketable is because the FA put a lot of effort into making it appealing to a global audience. To want to limit the success of English clubs in Europe, so to speak is to suggest that the English FA were wrong to have done what they have done; to become profitable.

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Really? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that even before the days of live football there were generally more fans of English clubs than there are of the other European clubs. The fact that we are a Commonwealth country will always give the British game a upperhand.


In Malaysia, probably but we are talking about the whole of Asia here. I'm struggling to see how the fact that we are a Commonwealth country has to do with the English game being more popular here. I mean I myself was born after independence and aside from the fact we speak English, I don't see why I should feel any connection to England. Even if it were a language issue, we get English commentary for other leagues as well.

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The Spanish league is as big as the English one in the Middle East given that the timings of the games are better for them.


Which would mean that the timing for Premiership matches are somewhat inconvenient? Suffice to say, when you have a large enough following, fans will chose to stay awake for matches, well some fans anyway. Case in point; European games, even in the group stages.

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What most around this region know about Real Madrid has largely been because of the galactico era started by Perez. It really put us on a global level. But of course the negatives come along with that. We have since been associated with the things that u relate there. Not all of them false of course but some are unfair criticisms in my view as well. Presidential campaigns were rarely about bringing bigger stars until Perez pulled off that Figo transfer. Since then it has become a trend. But that's what makes us different. We have elections where the fans actually get to vote. For all the shouting from the English that their clubs rightfully belong to the fans, here is one club that is actually legally owned by the fans but we get criticised for it. Go figure. As for Del Bosque, his contract finished and we didn't renew it. He was always not going to continue on as he was just a youth coach who was promoted to do a temporary job but did wonders. He hasn't been successful since he left the club though. And we did go through alot of managers after that..something I'm not proud of but the club is alot more stable now.
Well I'm going to stop here as my knowledge on the matter ends here. As usual, I always seek to learn more about things that I don't know much about.

QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 02:33 PM)
About the Arsenal team being full of foreigners, I'd like to point out that most of these foreigners were actually brought into Arsenal at a young age and probably could, if they chose to, play for england (Almunia for example).

Players like Clichy, Fabregas, Song, Denilson etc could potentially play for England (or get a UK passport) if they wanted to.

So who is foreign now?
I don't agree with this to a degree. In my opinion, to be classified as "homegrown", one has to be born in that country. I disagree all the same with players representing countries they have never visited, much like how John Barnes or Robbie Earl represented Jamaica. It probably is residual effect of globalisation. In other sports, you already see nations offering talented athletes from less fortunate nations to take up residence in their country.
TSDuke Red
post May 9 2008, 11:06 AM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 05:40 PM)
You may keep dismissing it but whether we like it or not there isn't a huge market over here for the Italian or Spanish game. They just don't see the returns.


Let us assume for a moment it is only a language thing. I do listen to logic and the reason I keep bringing this up is because I see potential for other leagues to really penetrate the Asian market if they really wanted to. David Beckham signing for Real Madrid is one such example. While one player might not make a world of difference, what if a few Premiership favourites were to cross over? What if the Spanish were to employ former Premiership players to do their English commentary? All I'm suggesting it isn't impossible if they thought it was important enough. Maybe they don't?

QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 8 2008, 09:42 PM)
other than arsenal fans,

dont be too soon shouting joy at arsenal's expense

they still can get through this homegrown thing easily.

see what arsene has done for few years? taking cheap talented african natives at young age and train them at arsenal. then we got some people like armand traore, that lanky no 4 (whats his name, forgot edi), eboue, bretner, et. al.


For starters I'm not taking the piss out of any club. I am only addressing your statement because you brought it up and it reminded me of an article I read regarding African football players.

Here you go. I found the bolded statement particularly interesting :
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


A matter of morality I suppose. African being an impoverished nation is being exploited. Anyone watch the movie, "Blood Diamond"? It's not legally wrong to buy a diamond but knowing what measures could have been taken to obtain it might play on the conscience of some.

QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 8 2008, 09:42 PM)
he also got some young englishmen at his youth set up, which is i think a good and brilliant thing to do. clubs will struggle to buy decent english players at decent price. what happening now is, DECENT english players SELL on big money.

remember Rooney, SWP?

i am sure rooney is a money well spent, but SWP?
Most clubs would like to have some English blood in their veins. I'm just curious though. Who are the English youth players you are referring to? Many youth teams have a large number of English players, naturally being England and all but how many do you reckon will graduate to the senior side? It's cheaper to buy proven foreign talent than it is to invest in one English player hoping he'd make the grade. It's the same problem faced by the other Premiership sides. At Liverpool we are hoping the likes of Hobbs and Anderson will make the grade but the last time someone broke through to the senior side was Stephen Warnock and even then we sold him to Blackburn.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 9 2008, 11:12 AM
TSDuke Red
post May 9 2008, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(m o m o @ May 9 2008, 01:32 PM)
Another could be the history of a particular nation, like Msia being an ex colony of Britain... Naturally, we tend to sway to Britain and it's popular culture... look at Spore, HK, India etc... we are mad about the BPL... and not only football, badminton, hockey and even cricket!
This is the issue I have yet to identify with. From the circle of people I know, not many watch/play badminton (although I do), hockey and least of all, cricket. Football is probably the most popular sport in the world so I won't attribute it to an English influence. I mentioned this to Verx before, and have to say that aside from the language, I find nothing English about me (well, the fact that I like beer perhaps). If anything I think we are largely influenced by American culture and when I saw we, I mean people of our generation, give or take a generation or two. I for one hate watching baseball or American Football for that matter.

American Culture vs. British Culture? In reference to our lifestyles (rap, hip-hop, etc), I think it's a close call. More like Western Culture rather than any one particular nation.
TSDuke Red
post May 10 2008, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 9 2008, 03:43 PM)
We are largely influenced by our parents and grandparents and so on and so forth and they were largely influenced by the British. Is it a coincidence that our most popular sports are football, badminton and hockey? That's because those games were introduced to them by the British. And they probably introduced British football teams to them too. I don't see it too far-fetched. I think basketball is the only non-British sport that has managed to garner a following here.


You have a point though the Chinese might lay claim to having inventing those sports. Out of the sports you've mentioned I think it's safe to assume that only football has generated a large following. I don't know that many people who play or watch either badminton or hockey. Football as a sport may have been introduced by the English and given the league an advantage but one could still like the game and follow another league, much like yourself. Handball is another sport that is popular at school level, at least when I was still a student, but how many watch the handball leagues on TV? Participation is one thing but generating a spectator following is quite another. Futsal is an example of a sport that many people play, but seldom watch. I've been to the KL World 5's and you'd expect the stadium to be full given the number of people that I've seen at any one tournament. I for one hardly played football, wasn't really good at it but I love watching the game. Measures have been taken to enhance the experience for the viewer by incorporating elements like having more camera's to give viewers multiple angles, mic's by the sidelines so we can hear what is happening on the pitch, etc. The Premiership has taken it a step further by not only promoting the game but also the clubs and the players which helped. How do I know? Well it may be a guess at this point and I'll leave you to make your own mind up but how many people do you know wear football jerseys but don't watch games?

QUOTE(verx @ May 9 2008, 03:43 PM)
But when you talk about music it's obvious the American influence is the biggest influence there. But it's 2 different aspects of our lives you're comparing now. Apples and oranges.
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America's influence transcends just music if you ask me. Look at our current political scene. Why are people now increasingly vocal? Why are we now taking to the streets and protesting for an open democracy, transparency and such? I seriously doubt we were brought up to challenge or oppose but rather to conform.


Added on May 10, 2008, 12:32 pm
QUOTE(m o m o @ May 10 2008, 12:25 PM)
Agreed, English / British players reluctance to move abroad is a problem.. even when they move, how many are deemed a success?

Recent times, Beckham and McManaman... Gazza was OK at Lazio... Rush didn't do well at Juventus... Owen and Woodgate had a Spanish nightmare... Sparky at Barca - no spark...

Things may change, but not any time soon coz the BPL is the top league at the moment, no one wants to leave the golden nest...
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From an English perspective, I'd say Chris Waddle had the most success abroad. He was adored at Marseille. From a British perspective, I'd say it was Tony Cascarino. He scored an amazing 61 goals in 84 games for Marseille though they were in the 2nd Division at some point.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 10 2008, 12:32 PM

 

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