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 Blatter seeks quotas, Are English teams being victimised?

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TSDuke Red
post May 8 2008, 11:19 AM, updated 18y ago

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What do you make of this? I have mixed thoughts at the moment. I'll try to sum them up into point form?

1) It seems a little unfair as not much was made of it when Italian or Spanish teams dominated Europe at some point. Why only now?

2) Is it the fault of the English that their league is the most marketable and therefore most profitable at the moment? Should other leagues instead not look at it from more of a business standpoint now? Real Madrid are government funded and didn't make the last four so is money really everything?

3) I do agree however that English clubs should have a number of homegrown players. It will help English players develop and clubs will also have their identities intact.
munky
post May 8 2008, 11:30 AM

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i would like to see it happen but 6 homegrown players is too many IMO

I would make it 3+8.

No offense to Arsenal fans but seeing an English team without a single english player is kinda weird
uNeVErwaLkaloNe
post May 8 2008, 11:34 AM

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QUOTE(munky @ May 8 2008, 11:30 AM)
i would like to see it happen but 6 homegrown players is too many IMO

I would make it 3+8.

No offense to Arsenal fans but seeing an English team without a single english player is kinda weird
*
kinda agree...but arsenal is not without an english player, cant remember english secret weapon eh? laugh.gif

but overpriced english player will be even more serious.. darren bent $16M fees, warming the bench earning 80k per week anyone? sweat.gif
verx
post May 8 2008, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 8 2008, 11:19 AM)
Real Madrid are government funded and didn't make the last four so is money really everything?
*
With all due respect to you Duke Red but for the last freaking time Real Madrid ARE NOT funded by the Spanish government. It is illegal to be so. We are mostly funded by the 90,000 socios who own the club.

As for the topic firstly I think Blatter is a moron.

Secondly it's hard to compare when the Spanish and Italians were dominating cause the money involved now is astronomical compared to those times. And traditionally their teams involve more of their homegrown players compared to the current English sides. And saying that the other leagues should be looking more from a business point of view is just ignorant when the fact is they have but they just can't compete on the same level (mainly because of the penetration that English football has in Asia)
munky
post May 8 2008, 11:40 AM

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QUOTE(uNeVErwaLkaloNe @ May 8 2008, 11:34 AM)
kinda agree...but arsenal is not without an english player, cant remember english secret weapon eh?    laugh.gif

but overpriced english player will be even more serious.. darren bent $16M fees, warming the bench earning 80k per week anyone?    sweat.gif
*
i know, but the only english player who always play is Theo Walcott. And that's if he doesnt start on the bench tongue.gif
nizamhameed
post May 8 2008, 11:42 AM


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one of the reason why England national team cannot succses is their clubs having a lot of foreign players.

i couldnt agreee with Blatter, yes TS was rite why now only u care?
TSDuke Red
post May 8 2008, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 11:39 AM)
And saying that the other leagues should be looking more from a business point of view is just ignorant when the fact is they have but they just can't compete on the same level (mainly because of the penetration that English football has in Asia)
*
And what is this due to? It is merely a geographical thing? Language? Not that we listen to what players say on the pitch. Why has English football penetrated the Asian market in the way it has? Are you yourself ignorant enough to think it's because of good luck? Is it purely coincidental that English games are scheduled at hours that are prime time here?

Years ago we got to watch 2 week old highlights of the Serie and English league. I was of course fan of Liverpool but also followed Inter Milan. There were no live telecasts and highlights were I repeat, 2 weeks old. Then came Dunhill who sponsored the "Road to Wembley" games, screening FA Cup Finals. Since then, clubs in England and the English FA identified the potential it had in Asia. Yes I am ignorant so please oh great one point out what initiatives were made by the La Liga or Serie to penetrate the Asian market ? It's the reason I don't follow Inter Milan anymore. Till today though I still remember the likes of Giusuppe Bergomi, Aldo Serena, Walter Zenga, Lothar Mattheus, Andreas Brehme and Juergen Klinsnmann running about.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 8 2008, 12:04 PM
verx
post May 8 2008, 11:58 AM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 8 2008, 11:53 AM)
And what is this due to? It is merely a geographical thing? Language? Not that we listen to what players say on the pitch. Why has English football penetrated the Asian market in the way it has? Are you yourself ignorant enough to think it's because of good luck?
*
I didn't say it was because of good luck.
I'm thinking along the lines of the language factor. The fact that the British had alot of influence on this part of the world. It's the same with South America where they watch more Spanish football over there.
kinfei
post May 8 2008, 12:08 PM

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nah,try to take chelsea and manchester united's english players only.we'd have:

GK:Ben foster
Defender:Brown,Rio Ferdinand,Terry,AshleyCole
Mid:J.Cole,M.Carrick,Lampard,Hargreaves
Striker:Rooney (insert any english here and i bet we'd win many teams)

from my POV,England do have their talents everywhere but it depends on whether the managers willing to take them up and utilise them .

Arsenal is like a foreign club that invade into BPL imo.Take theo as their hostages in recent years
uNeVErwaLkaloNe
post May 8 2008, 12:11 PM

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QUOTE(kinfei @ May 8 2008, 12:08 PM)
nah,try to take chelsea and manchester united's english players only.we'd have:

GK:Ben foster
Defender:Brown,Rio Ferdinand,Terry,AshleyCole
Mid:J.Cole,M.Carrick,Lampard,Hargreaves
Striker:Rooney (insert any english here and i bet we'd win many teams)

from my POV,England do have their talents everywhere but it depends on whether the managers willing to take them up and utilise them .

Arsenal is like a foreign club that invade into BPL imo.Take theo as their hostages in recent years
*
u can add g.neville, swp and bridge as well tongue.gif
verx
post May 8 2008, 12:13 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 8 2008, 11:53 AM)
Years ago we got to watch 2 week old highlights of the Serie and English league. I was of course  fan of Liverpool but also followed Inter Milan. There were no live telecasts and highlights were I repeat, 2 weeks old. Then came Dunhill who sponsored the "Road to Wembley" games, screening FA Cup Finals. Since then, clubs in England and the English FA identified the potential it had in Asia. Yes I am ignorant so please oh great one point out what initiatives were made by the La Liga or Serie to penetrate the Asian market ? It's the reason I don't follow Inter Milan anymore. Till today though I still remember the likes of Giusuppe Bergomi, Aldo Serena, Walter Zenga, Lothar Mattheus, Andreas Brehme and Juergen Klinsnmann running about.
*
Aren't we getting live telecasts for Italian games now? Isn't that better than watching 2 week old highlights? So you saying you don't follow Inter now is just an excuse if u ask me. You could argue about the timing of Spanish games but some of the Italian games are not scheduled that late. Let me ask you then if Italian and Spanish games were scheduled live on primetime here would you choose to watch them over EPL games? Why did ESPN Starsports invest so much on EPL coverage (Football Focus, Football Crazy, etc are all mainly EPL shows) while the other leagues barely get a mention? That's because of the market here. It's the same why there are more Spanish programmes over in South America. There are special cases of course like Japan where Real Madrid has a big following.

Edit: Duke I know I probably pissed u off when I called you ignorant. But I get just as irritated whenever someone claims that "RM is funded by the govt". For someone who always encourages people to do their own research with the availability of the Internet, I was abit disappointed. If it offends u I'll take it back.

This post has been edited by verx: May 8 2008, 12:24 PM
Chrisky
post May 8 2008, 12:21 PM

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i juz wanna point out 1 thing to clear up the popular myth :

most of Serie A games (mayb like around 70%) play on 9 or 10pm Malaysia time, even for matches like Derby della Capitale or Derby della Madonnina.
verx
post May 8 2008, 12:25 PM

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QUOTE(Chrisky @ May 8 2008, 12:21 PM)
i juz wanna point out 1 thing to clear up the popular myth :

most of Serie A games (mayb like around 70%) play on 9 or 10pm Malaysia time, even for matches like Derby della Capitale or Derby della Madonnina.
*
Exactly my point. Cheers for the info Chrisky.
TSDuke Red
post May 8 2008, 01:15 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 12:13 PM)
Aren't we getting live telecasts for Italian games now? Isn't that better than watching 2 week old highlights? So you saying you don't follow Inter now is just an excuse if u ask me.


Well I didn't ask you. As I've mentioned, the English FA and clubs have identified the potential of the Asian market and are whoring themselves here if I can use that word. If the Italian and Spanish teams don't follow suit, is it the fault of the English? Obviously timing alone isn't the issue then. You can't pick of one of my points because as I've mentioned, there are other factors. Why not consider my argument as a whole? Other factors to consider like brand building perhaps? What about setting up academies in the East to cultivate interest? Developing their own English language programmes like Red TV? I'm not giving excuses as to why I don't follow Inter play anymore. I identified more with the Premiership because of the efforts they have taken to capture the Asian audience. It made me want to find out more about Liverpool and follow them.

QUOTE
You could argue about the timing of Spanish games but some of the Italian games are not scheduled that late. Let me ask you then if Italian and Spanish games were scheduled live on primetime here would you choose to watch them over EPL games?


No, for the reasons given above. In summary I follow the English league because more people talk about it and I see it everywhere. I am a victim of commercialism. A glory hunter in the context of football leagues if you will but that isn't the question. I sold my soul but only because the devil came knocking.

QUOTE
Why did ESPN Starsports invest so much on EPL coverage (Football Focus, Football Crazy, etc are all mainly EPL shows) while the other leagues barely get a mention? That's because of the market here. It's the same why there are more Spanish programmes over in South America. There are special cases of course like Japan where Real Madrid has a big following.


When you say, "it's because of the market here", what do you mean? I'd go out on a limb to say viewers all across Asia, to as far as the middle east probably follow the English league more than any other league. It may be an assumption but it's a safe one from what I can tell. How have the English influenced them? I see you connection between Spain and South America but how about England and the Middle East?

QUOTE
Edit: Duke I know I probably pissed u off when I called you ignorant. But I get just as irritated whenever someone claims that "RM is funded by the govt". For someone who always encourages people to do their own research with the availability of the Internet, I was abit disappointed. If it offends u I'll take it back.
*
At any time I'm wrong, I'd gladly admit it. I've always asked for your opinion on the La Liga even on other threads. From what little I can comprehend, Real Madrid's presidential elections are carried out with the promise of bringing in bigger stars and managers. It's how the garner votes from what I can see. Even successful managers like Del Bosque can get the sack if he doesn't have the backing of the president and a new one promises more. Correct me if i'm wrong.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 8 2008, 01:16 PM
Hevrn
post May 8 2008, 01:36 PM

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If this comes to past, Wenger will be the first to come out with his gun. This will skyrocket the already ridiculous prices of English players.
leongtat
post May 8 2008, 01:43 PM

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one reason...that is becoz sepp blatter is french....he hate english...lol
anyway i still remember that time when real madrid valencia n deportivo owning the champion league....when they reach semis....that time their team oso full of non-spanish....haha din see they say anything?
verx
post May 8 2008, 01:45 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 8 2008, 01:15 PM)
Well I didn't ask you. As I've mentioned, the English FA and clubs have identified the potential of the Asian market and are whoring themselves here if I can use that word. If the Italian and Spanish teams don't follow suit, is it the fault of the English? Obviously timing alone isn't the issue then. You can't pick of one of my points because as I've mentioned, there are other factors. Why not consider my argument as a whole? Other factors to consider like brand building perhaps? What about setting up academies in the East to cultivate interest? Developing their own English language programmes like Red TV? I'm not giving excuses as to why I don't follow Inter play anymore. I identified more with the Premiership because of the efforts they have taken to capture the Asian audience. It made me want to find out more about Liverpool and follow them.
Again you are assuming alot of things here. I won't speak for the other teams but Real Madrid have toured Asia and done their fair share of brand building in Asia (maybe not so much in Malaysia). But their market is stronger over in the Americas. The fact that they have set up Realmadrid TV in English in US proves so. And I can tell u that despite the influx of money coming to the EPL, we are one club that can still compete with the English clubs (Our brand value is the highest in the world). Where the Spanish and Italians have paled in comparison to the English is their league federation. The English league is run miles better than their continental counterparts.

QUOTE
No, for the reasons given above. In summary I follow the English league because more people talk about it and I see it everywhere. I am a victim of commercialism. A glory hunter in the context of football leagues if you will but that isn't the question. I sold my soul but only because the devil came knocking.

Really? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that even before the days of live football there were generally more fans of English clubs than there are of the other European clubs. The fact that we are a Commonwealth country will always give the British game a upperhand.

QUOTE
When you say, "it's because of the market here", what do you mean? I'd go out on a limb to say viewers all across Asia, to as far as the middle east probably follow the English league more than any other league. It may be an assumption but it's a safe one from what I can tell. How have the English influenced them? I see you connection between Spain and South America but how about England and the Middle East?

The Spanish league is as big as the English one in the Middle East given that the timings of the games are better for them.

QUOTE
At any time I'm wrong, I'd gladly admit it. I've always asked for your opinion on the La Liga even on other threads. From what little I can comprehend, Real Madrid's presidential elections are carried out with the promise of bringing in bigger stars and managers. It's how the garner votes from what I can see. Even successful managers like Del Bosque can get the sack if he doesn't have the backing of the president and a new one promises more. Correct me if i'm wrong.
*
What most around this region know about Real Madrid has largely been because of the galactico era started by Perez. It really put us on a global level. But of course the negatives come along with that. We have since been associated with the things that u relate there. Not all of them false of course but some are unfair criticisms in my view as well. Presidential campaigns were rarely about bringing bigger stars until Perez pulled off that Figo transfer. Since then it has become a trend. But that's what makes us different. We have elections where the fans actually get to vote. For all the shouting from the English that their clubs rightfully belong to the fans, here is one club that is actually legally owned by the fans but we get criticised for it. Go figure. As for Del Bosque, his contract finished and we didn't renew it. He was always not going to continue on as he was just a youth coach who was promoted to do a temporary job but did wonders. He hasn't been successful since he left the club though. And we did go through alot of managers after that..something I'm not proud of but the club is alot more stable now.

And Duke if you must know, I don't blame the English one bit. It's just how it is. And I agree that Blatter is a fool to bring this up now. Cheers.
schmeichel7
post May 8 2008, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(leongtat @ May 8 2008, 01:43 PM)
one reason...that is becoz sepp blatter is french....he hate english...lol
anyway i still remember that time when real madrid valencia n deportivo owning the champion league....when they reach semis....that time their team oso full of non-spanish....haha din see they say anything?
*
I think Blatter is Swiss.. not french.
leongtat
post May 8 2008, 02:05 PM

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QUOTE(schmeichel7 @ May 8 2008, 02:01 PM)
I think Blatter is Swiss.. not french.
*
ahaha yeah he is a swiss....juz browse thru wikipedia...
sorry for my mistake

actually sepp blatter is full of crap
here is some of his criticism

Criticism

[edit] Marc Vivien Foe's Death

The handling by Blatter of the death of Marc-Vivien Foι on the pitch during the 2003 Confederations Cup has been heavily criticised by many within the sport. Blatter's comments in the days following the player's death, and his decision to allow the minor tournament to continue afterwards angered many within the game.

[edit] Allegations of corruption

Blatter's 1998 election to the presidency of FIFA over UEFA President Lennart Johansson occurred amidst much controversy.[2][3] His 2002's candidacy has also been marked with rumors of financial irregularities and backroom dealings,[4] culminating with direct accusations of bribery made in the British press by the Farra Ado, vice-president of the CAF and president of the Somalian football association, who claimed to have been offered $100,000 to vote for Blatter. "The night before the election people were lining up in Le Meridien Hotel (in Paris) to receive money. Some told me they got $50,000 before the vote and the same the next day, after Blatter won".[5]

Also in 2002, FIFA's general-secretary Michael Zen-Ruffinen, drew up a dossier outlining allegations of financial mismanagement within the organisation.[6] The dossier alleged that the collapse of FIFA’s marketing partner ISL had led to losses of up to $100m under Blatter's management. The allegations were backed by Johansson,[7] and the dossier was handed to the Swiss authorities, but in the end no action was taken.[8] Also, an internal investigation within FIFA was halted by Blatter, which was seen by many as proof of his guilt.[9] Zen-Ruffinen was removed from office by Blatter immediately before the FIFA World Cup 2002.[10]

In May 2006, British investigative reporter Andrew Jennings' book Foul[11] caused controversy within the football world by detailing an alleged international cash-for-contracts scandal following the collapse of FIFA's marketing partner ISL, and revealed how some football officials have been urged to secretly repay the sweeteners they received. The book also spoke of blatant vote-rigging that went on behind closed doors in the fight for Blatter's continued control of FIFA.

This is an extract of a review made by David Goldblatt for the British paper The Independent and published on June 9, 2006: "Official FIFA business, always an opulent inter-continental affair, has spiralled to grotesque levels. The massively enlarged carbuncle of football bureaucrats, created by Blatter as a phalanx of kept support, have lived the high life. In addition to the five-star, business-class, black-Mercedes arrangements, all have been allowed a daily expenses rate of 500 euros, for which no receipts or accounts are required. Members of the executive committee were handed $50,000 honorariums. President Blatter's salary and accounts remain, despite repeated requests, a matter of complete secrecy".[12] The publishing of the book in Switzerland was banned since Zόrich-based FIFA sought and obtained a temporary injunction.[13]

On a BBC Panorama documentary, 'The Beautiful Bung - Corruption and the World Cup' was broadcast on Sunday 10 June 2006, revealing mass corruption throughout the FIFA ranks and heavily implicating Blatter amongst others.

[edit] 2006 FIFA World Cup

During the 2006 FIFA World Cup in Germany, Blatter's absence during the prize-podium events was noted and criticized in international media, as it was considered odd by many that FIFA's president was not present during the climax of FIFA's biggest event.

Blatter also made the press for comments made after a controversial second-round match between Portugal and the Netherlands, which saw referee Valentin Ivanov issuing a record 16 yellow cards and four red cards. After the match, Blatter lambasted the officiating, and said that Ivanov should have given himself a yellow card for his poor performance as a referee.[14] However, on the day when Ivanov turned 45, Blatter said he regretted his words and promised to officially apologise to Ivanov.[15]

Furthermore in an interview with an Australian channel where he said that Australia should have won and not Italy (a controversial penalty was given to Italy, in the dying seconds, when it had appeared that Fabio Grosso had dived). He claims that the penalty given to Italy was not a penalty. The statement angered the Italian football federation FIGC which has asked for an apology. Blatter the next day said that he was misinterpreted and that he wanted to say to the Australian fans that their team had played a great game.[16] Many Italians reacted to Blatter's comments by starting online petitions to have him removed from FIFA, and football completely.[17]

[edit] Comments about women's football

Blatter incurred the ire of women footballers the world over in 2004 when he suggested that women should "wear tighter shorts".[18] we support this!!!!

[edit] Opinion on Martin Taylor's tackle on Eduardo

Blatter launched an attack against Martin Taylor after his tackle which broke Arsenal player Eduardo's leg. He regarded the challenge as an 'attack' on Eduardo and announced that he may take it further by overruling the F.A.'s decision to leave the ban as a three-match ban. This angered many football associates as he was implying that the F.A. cannot do their job properly.

This post has been edited by leongtat: May 8 2008, 02:09 PM
berzerk
post May 8 2008, 02:33 PM

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About the Arsenal team being full of foreigners, I'd like to point out that most of these foreigners were actually brought into Arsenal at a young age and probably could, if they chose to, play for england (Almunia for example).

Players like Clichy, Fabregas, Song, Denilson etc could potentially play for England (or get a UK passport) if they wanted to.

So who is foreign now?

In fact the teams who go traditionally around poaching established foreign players are the mega clubs like Real Madrid (even in the 1950s they poach Puskas & Di Stefano), Inter Milan & Juve.

Lastly, Sepp is an ass who should go back to suggesting women play in short skirts rather than disturbing football.
verx
post May 8 2008, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 02:33 PM)
About the Arsenal team being full of foreigners, I'd like to point out that most of these foreigners were actually brought into Arsenal at a young age and probably could, if they chose to, play for england (Almunia for example).

Players like Clichy, Fabregas, Song, Denilson etc could potentially play for England (or get a UK passport) if they wanted to.

So who is foreign now?

In fact the teams who go traditionally around poaching established foreign players are the mega clubs like Real Madrid (even in the 1950s they poach Puskas & Di Stefano), Inter Milan & Juve. 

Lastly, Sepp is an ass who should go back to suggesting women play in short skirts rather than disturbing football.
*
To be fair those teams that u mentioned bought their foreigners with transfer fees paid whereas Arsenal goes around signing youngsters who don't have professional contracts on little to no fees paid to the clubs that trained them. How you can justify Arsenal's policies and then claim that these "mega clubs" go around "poaching" is beyond me. Not that I'm against Arsenal or anything. The fact that so many could potentially play for England just proves that these players were signed at a very young age. Not that they will though.
berzerk
post May 8 2008, 02:41 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 01:45 PM)
What most around this region know about Real Madrid has largely been because of the galactico era started by Perez. It really put us on a global level. But of course the negatives come along with that. We have since been associated with the things that u relate there. Not all of them false of course but some are unfair criticisms in my view as well. Presidential campaigns were rarely about bringing bigger stars until Perez pulled off that Figo transfer. Since then it has become a trend. But that's what makes us different.
*
Friend, Real Madrid has been a galactico club since at least the 1950s.

see wikipedia
Santiago Bernabιu Yeste became President in 1945. He also reorganized the club at all levels.
Finally, beginning in 1953 he embarked upon a strategy of signing world-class players from abroad, the most prominent of them being the signing of Alfredo Di Stιfano and built the world's first truly multinational side. During Bernabιu's presidency many of Real Madrid's most legendary names played for the club, including the aforementioned Alfredo Di Stιfano, Ferenc Puskαs, Francisco Gento, Hιctor Rial, Raymond Kopa, Josι Santamarνa, Miguel Muρoz, Amancio, Santillana, Juanito, Josι Antonio Camacho and others.


Added on May 8, 2008, 2:47 pm
QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 02:40 PM)
To be fair those teams that u mentioned bought their foreigners with transfer fees paid whereas Arsenal goes around signing youngsters who don't have professional contracts on little to no fees paid to the clubs that trained them. How you can justify Arsenal's policies and then claim that these "mega clubs" go around "poaching" is beyond me. Not that I'm against Arsenal or anything. The fact that so many could potentially play for England just proves that these players were signed at a very young age. Not that they will though.
*
Which goes back to Sepp Blatter's plan & how you define a foreigner. If Real signs Arjan Robben for silly money after he spent several succesfull seasons in Chelsea & make many appearances for Holland then yes without question, Robben is a foreign Dutch player playing in s Spanish team.

If arsenal recruit Clichy as a 16 year old from France & train him at their academy for 3 years before making him a first team player, is Clichy a French player in an English team or a French/English dual national in an English team?


This post has been edited by berzerk: May 8 2008, 02:47 PM
verx
post May 8 2008, 02:49 PM

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QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 02:41 PM)
Friend, Real Madrid has been a galactico club since at least the 1950s.

see wikipedia
Santiago Bernabιu Yeste became President in 1945. He also reorganized the club at all levels.
Finally, beginning in 1953 he embarked upon a strategy of signing world-class players from abroad, the most prominent of them being the signing of Alfredo Di Stιfano and built the world's first truly multinational side. During Bernabιu's presidency many of Real Madrid's most legendary names played for the club, including the aforementioned Alfredo Di Stιfano, Ferenc Puskαs, Francisco Gento, Hιctor Rial, Raymond Kopa, Josι Santamarνa, Miguel Muρoz, Amancio, Santillana, Juanito, Josι Antonio Camacho and others.
*
You trying to teach me the history of my club? laugh.gif
They were a multinational side but they were hardly a galactico club if you actually know what the galactico era meant. Perez was the one that coined the term and he just tried to sign the biggest names in football. Real Madrid in the 50's was different where Bernabeu actually tried to build the best team in the world. And the names u mentioned there that i bolded are Spanish. The least you could do was to get your facts straight.


Added on May 8, 2008, 2:51 pm
QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 02:41 PM)
Which goes back to Sepp Blatter's plan & how you define a foreigner. If Real signs Arjan Robben for silly money after he spent several succesfull seasons in Chelsea & make many appearances for Holland then yes without question, Robben is a foreign Dutch player playing in s Spanish team.

If arsenal recruit Clichy as a 16 year old from France & train him at their academy for 3 years before making him a first team player, is Clichy a French player in an English team or a French/English dual national in an English team?
*
Easy. He's a French player in an English team. tongue.gif

This post has been edited by verx: May 8 2008, 02:51 PM
berzerk
post May 8 2008, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 02:49 PM)
You trying to teach me the history of my club? laugh.gif
They were a multinational side but they were hardly a galactico club if you actually know what the galactico era meant. Perez was the one that coined the term and he just tried to sign the biggest names in football. Real Madrid in the 50's was different where Bernabeu actually tried to build the best team in the world. And the names u mentioned there that i bolded are Spanish. The least you could do was to get your facts straight.


Added on May 8, 2008, 2:51 pm
Easy. He's a French player in an English team. tongue.gif
*
Josι Santamarνa was an import from Uruguay.

Santiago Bernabιu didn't use the term but it was essentially a galactico policy (i.e. buy the best players/most famous players after they performed well at a world cup). Alfredo Di Stιfano, Ferenc Puskαs & Raymond Kopa were the Beckham's, Beckhams & Michael Owen's of their day. Of course other clubs like Inter were also filling up their teams with foreign superstars also.

Now if Clichy gets UK residency is he still a foreigner? What if he takes a UK passport?

This post has been edited by berzerk: May 8 2008, 03:09 PM
ky_khor
post May 8 2008, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE
Blatter: bla bla bla

translation;
England does not even qualify for Euro 2008. Therefore English clubs are suppose to be sucks. 4 in UCL quarter, 3 in Semi, both in final IS cheating. We need to apply the 6+5 or 10.5 + 0.5 rule so that English clubs remain as sucks as England. (so that Switzerland clubs can beat all of you)

whistling.gif whistling.gif

From the money point of view, the rules = pay cut + job opportunity cut for the foreigners. who's willing to hire you with high salary if you're not allowed to play on the field?
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post May 8 2008, 03:25 PM

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QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 03:09 PM)
Josι Santamarνa was an import from Uruguay.
Oops..fair enough tongue.gif

QUOTE
Santiago Bernabιu didn't use the term but it was essentially a galactico policy (i.e. buy the best players/most famous players after they performed well at a world cup). Alfredo Di Stιfano, Ferenc Puskαs & Raymond Kopa were the Beckham's, Beckhams & Michael Owen's of their day. Of course other clubs like Inter were also filling up their teams with foreign superstars also.
But it wasn't like that. Bernabeu would buy players that he felt would improve the squad in key areas regardless whether they were famous or not. Di Stefano for instance was playing in an illegal league at Colombia at the time and had not featured in any international match for a long time. He only got famous playing for Madrid. Perez didn't even want to buy defenders for crying out loud.

Is Man Utd adopting a galactico policy then? Their squad is multinational as well and they are trying to build the best team.

QUOTE
Now if Clichy gets UK residency is he still a foreigner? What if he takes a UK passport?
*
Do you think he will try and get a UK residency then? If he does then fairplay to him.
nazman
post May 8 2008, 03:39 PM


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Added on May 8, 2008, 3:41 pmEngland
Premier League English players (36%), Non-English (64%)

France
Ligue 1 French players (60%), Non-French (40%)

Spain
La Liga Spanish players (62%), Non-Spanish (38%)

Germany
Bundesliga German players (45%), Non-German (55%

Italy
Serie A Italian players (64%), Non-Italian (36%)

Source: Mirror 2007

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Blatter=Platini=Conspiracy?? whistling.gif

This post has been edited by nazman: May 8 2008, 03:45 PM
berzerk
post May 8 2008, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 03:25 PM)
Do you think he will try and get a UK residency then? If he does then fairplay to him.
If Sepp's idea comes through, one way around the restriction would be to convert foreign players status. Either that or Arsenal will have to sell Clichy to PSG & buy Nicky Shorey for 25 million into to replace him.

This post has been edited by berzerk: May 8 2008, 03:44 PM
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post May 8 2008, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 01:45 PM)
Again you are assuming alot of things here. I won't speak for the other teams but Real Madrid have toured Asia and done their fair share of brand building in Asia (maybe not so much in Malaysia). But their market is stronger over in the Americas. The fact that they have set up Realmadrid TV in English in US proves so. And I can tell u that despite the influx of money coming to the EPL, we are one club that can still compete with the English clubs (Our brand value is the  highest in the world). Where the Spanish and Italians have paled in comparison to the English is their league federation. The English league is run miles better than their continental counterparts.


What about the other clubs in Spain? I'm sure it has to be a concerted effort? There isn't a point in identifying with just one club and knowing nothing of the rest (though I'm sure there are Premiership fans who are the same). Manchester United were arguable the first club to really penetrate the East but only after the Premiership had gained a fairly large international following. In essence, it was a safe gamble. Although they may not do that well in selling original merchandise, they definitely have a large television following. Their efforts were also supplemented by the FA who has in recent times begun to organise mini tournaments or promotional matches here. Clubs like Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich (ok so it was because of Proton) or some less fancied sides that have played here. They also have the "Legends" tour where former English league greats drop by for autograph session or whatever. My point is that there has been a massive effort not just to cultivate interest in English clubs, but in the English league in it's entirety.

My intention is not to claim that one league is another. To put things back into context, it's to suggest to Mr. Blatter than the success of English clubs is attributed to the fact that it is marketable, and thus attracts big sponsors and investors. Why it's marketable is because the FA put a lot of effort into making it appealing to a global audience. To want to limit the success of English clubs in Europe, so to speak is to suggest that the English FA were wrong to have done what they have done; to become profitable.

QUOTE
Really? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that even before the days of live football there were generally more fans of English clubs than there are of the other European clubs. The fact that we are a Commonwealth country will always give the British game a upperhand.


In Malaysia, probably but we are talking about the whole of Asia here. I'm struggling to see how the fact that we are a Commonwealth country has to do with the English game being more popular here. I mean I myself was born after independence and aside from the fact we speak English, I don't see why I should feel any connection to England. Even if it were a language issue, we get English commentary for other leagues as well.

QUOTE
The Spanish league is as big as the English one in the Middle East given that the timings of the games are better for them.


Which would mean that the timing for Premiership matches are somewhat inconvenient? Suffice to say, when you have a large enough following, fans will chose to stay awake for matches, well some fans anyway. Case in point; European games, even in the group stages.

QUOTE
What most around this region know about Real Madrid has largely been because of the galactico era started by Perez. It really put us on a global level. But of course the negatives come along with that. We have since been associated with the things that u relate there. Not all of them false of course but some are unfair criticisms in my view as well. Presidential campaigns were rarely about bringing bigger stars until Perez pulled off that Figo transfer. Since then it has become a trend. But that's what makes us different. We have elections where the fans actually get to vote. For all the shouting from the English that their clubs rightfully belong to the fans, here is one club that is actually legally owned by the fans but we get criticised for it. Go figure. As for Del Bosque, his contract finished and we didn't renew it. He was always not going to continue on as he was just a youth coach who was promoted to do a temporary job but did wonders. He hasn't been successful since he left the club though. And we did go through alot of managers after that..something I'm not proud of but the club is alot more stable now.
Well I'm going to stop here as my knowledge on the matter ends here. As usual, I always seek to learn more about things that I don't know much about.

QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 02:33 PM)
About the Arsenal team being full of foreigners, I'd like to point out that most of these foreigners were actually brought into Arsenal at a young age and probably could, if they chose to, play for england (Almunia for example).

Players like Clichy, Fabregas, Song, Denilson etc could potentially play for England (or get a UK passport) if they wanted to.

So who is foreign now?
I don't agree with this to a degree. In my opinion, to be classified as "homegrown", one has to be born in that country. I disagree all the same with players representing countries they have never visited, much like how John Barnes or Robbie Earl represented Jamaica. It probably is residual effect of globalisation. In other sports, you already see nations offering talented athletes from less fortunate nations to take up residence in their country.
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post May 8 2008, 05:22 PM

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Blatter was the one against the 39th game wasn't he?i think he has a problem with the success of the epl as a whole..he sees it as something 'spiralling out of control.' but wouldn't that be an incentive for other leagues to improve their standards to compete on a global level as well?that's a good thing in my opinion as every league would never be resting on their laurels in their quest to dominate the game in terms of commercial and on-field success
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post May 8 2008, 05:22 PM

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i have to agree that what blatter and platini said has a certain degree of truth, the foreign invasion has stunted english players' emergence.

but being a malaysian who so happens to support an english team, i don't think too much of the nationalities of players who represent the clubs. this topic pretty much matters the most to the english FA and their national team. whether it's a dutchman or an indian or a malaysian even, who plays for the team that i support makes not much of a difference to me.

their idea is to introduce more english players into the game. there are no english players abroad, and the pool of english regulars in the bpl is really limited. there's nothing much to choose from for the national team, and there are not foreign experiences for any of those players except a handful who've gone abroad, for a short stint.

i do not agree with the quota personally, but the englishmen should make the decision themselves, whether they want the most exciting and profitable league in europe, or have more english players breaking into the first teams.

the latter is, of course, something that i couldn't be bothered with since i'm not even english to start with. i don't really care what happens to their national side.

This post has been edited by livingmonolith: May 8 2008, 05:24 PM
berzerk
post May 8 2008, 05:30 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 8 2008, 04:59 PM)
I don't agree with this to a degree. In my opinion, to be classified as "homegrown", one has to be born in that country. I disagree all the same with players representing countries they have never visited, much like how John Barnes or Robbie Earl represented Jamaica. It probably is residual effect of globalisation. In other sports, you already see nations offering talented athletes from less fortunate nations to take up residence in their country.
Homegrown doesn't mean "home born". Arsenal's foreigners are mostly grown in England as they became the type of players they are under Arsenal's coaching.
In this sense, england are more deserving to exploit their talents than the national teams of their countries of birth who have invested less in their football development.

You could say the same for England's Carribean players (Barnes etc) and France's African players (Vieira, Makalele etc).

verx
post May 8 2008, 05:40 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 8 2008, 04:59 PM)
What about the other clubs in Spain? I'm sure it has to be a concerted effort? There isn't a point in identifying with just one club and knowing nothing of the rest (though I'm sure there are Premiership fans who are the same). Manchester United were arguable the first club to really penetrate the East but only after the Premiership had gained a fairly large international following. In essence, it was a safe gamble. Although they may not do that well in selling original merchandise, they definitely have a large television following. Their efforts were also supplemented by the FA who has in recent times begun to organise mini tournaments or promotional matches here. Clubs like Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich (ok so it was because of Proton) or some less fancied sides that have played here. They also have the "Legends" tour where former English league greats drop by for autograph session or whatever. My point is that there has been a massive effort not just to cultivate interest in English clubs, but in the English league in it's entirety.
This is a great point you brought up. Which is why I said earlier in my post that the English league is run alot better. The Spanish clubs in general mostly handle their own affairs individually including negotiating TV deals. Which is why Real Madrid has a mammoth TV deal while the smaller clubs are really struggling. The LFP imo should have done alot better in marketing the league and putting more interest in a club's well being given that they have a really good product in their hands. But as u have it, Madrid and Barca are really the only global brands in Spain.

QUOTE
My intention is not to claim that one league is another. To put things back into context, it's to suggest to Mr. Blatter than the success of English clubs is attributed to the fact that it is marketable, and thus attracts big sponsors and investors. Why it's marketable is because the FA put a lot of effort into making it appealing to a global audience. To want to limit the success of English clubs in Europe, so to speak is to suggest that the English FA were wrong to have done what they have done; to become profitable.
I don't think Blatter was attributing the fact that the English league is more marketable. I may have got it wrong but I thought he was referring to the lucrative rewards of the Champions League. But after seeing the stats that one poster earlier posted, it did shock me and it must be a genuine concern for the English game.

QUOTE

In Malaysia, probably but we are talking about the whole of Asia here. I'm struggling to see how the fact that we are a Commonwealth country has to do with the English game being more popular here. I mean I myself was born after independence and aside from the fact we speak English, I don't see why I should feel any connection to England. Even if it were a language issue, we get English commentary for other leagues as well.

It is a language issue. How many times have we had ppl complain about the commentary in the Italian and Spanish games despite it being in English? Why isn't anyone willing to invest to bring more coverage of both leagues. I mean if they can get the TV rights why not go all the way? Skysports has Spanish coverage. Why doesn't Starsports fork out the money to bring it here? You may keep dismissing it but whether we like it or not there isn't a huge market over here for the Italian or Spanish game. They just don't see the returns. And we are talking about Malaysia and the SEA countries over here. In other parts of Asia there is more demand for the other European leagues.

QUOTE

Which would mean that the timing for Premiership matches are somewhat inconvenient? Suffice to say, when you have a large enough following, fans will chose to stay awake for matches, well some fans anyway. Case in point; European games, even in the group stages.
*
Timing for La Liga matches over here is inconvenient. The Middle East given that they are alot nearer to Europe actually enjoy the best coverage of all European leagues among Asian countries since the matches are all aired in the afternoon thus giving the other leagues similar exposure to the EPL.
And waking up for 3am matches every fortnight is easy. Try that twice every week and you'll understand what I'm talking about.


Added on May 8, 2008, 5:51 pm
QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 05:30 PM)
Homegrown doesn't mean "home born". Arsenal's foreigners are mostly grown in England as they became the type of players they are under Arsenal's coaching.
In this sense, england are more deserving to exploit their talents than the national teams of their countries of birth who have invested less in their football development.

You could say the same for England's Carribean players (Barnes etc) and France's African players (Vieira, Makalele etc).
*
And which Arsenal foreigners were u referring to? The French African players grew up in France and were trained in the French football schools since they were kids. It's not even comparable to what Arsenal do who sign mainly youngsters around 15 yrs old. Again I might be wrong and there may be a few foreign youngsters who may have played for Arsenal since they were 6 or 7. Maybe you can enlighten us with a few examples?

This post has been edited by verx: May 8 2008, 05:51 PM
berzerk
post May 8 2008, 06:39 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 05:40 PM)
And which Arsenal foreigners were u referring to? The French African players grew up in France and were trained in the French football schools since they were kids. It's not even comparable to what Arsenal do who sign mainly youngsters around 15 yrs old. Again I might be wrong and there may be a few foreign youngsters who may have played for Arsenal since they were 6 or 7. Maybe you can enlighten us with a few examples?
*
There are quite a few foreign youngsters in the Arsenal academy (& the Man U & other club academies as well)

However thats not the point.
Take a player like Clichy who came to Arsenal at the age to 17 for a paltry £250,000 from Cannes. Would Clichy have been better off staying in Cannes to further his football training or going to Arsenal (Cannes are languishing one division below Ligue 2 at the moment). How much would he be worth on transfer to day? say £5 mill?

Cannes put in £500,000 of value into him over perhaps 5-7 years of coaching (say Wenger drives a hard bargain), Arsenal have put in over £4 mill. over 5 years. Who has contributed more to his development at a world class footballer?

This post has been edited by berzerk: May 8 2008, 06:41 PM
faris21
post May 8 2008, 07:03 PM

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let see Big Four 1st eleven line-up

Manchester 6:5
Van Der Sar
Brown-Vidic-Ferdinand-Evra
Ronaldo-Scholes-Owen-Carrick
Tevez-Rooney

Chelsea 4:7
Cech
Ferreira-Terry-Carvalho-Cole
Cole-Lampard-Essien-Ballack-Malouda
Drogba

Liverpool 2:9
Reina
Arbeloa-Carragher-Skrtel-Aurelio
Kuyt-Xabi-Mascherano-Gerrard-Babel
Torres

Arsenal 0:11
Almunia
Sagna-Toure-Gallas-Clichy
Eboue-Fabregas-Flamini-Hleb
Adebayor-v.Persie

sorry if something wrong with the line-up,i dont know BPL too much
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post May 8 2008, 07:20 PM

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QUOTE(berzerk @ May 8 2008, 06:39 PM)
There are quite a few foreign youngsters in the Arsenal academy (& the Man U & other club academies as well)

However thats not the point.
Take a player like Clichy who came to Arsenal at the age to 17 for a paltry £250,000 from Cannes. Would Clichy have been better off staying in Cannes to further his football training or going to Arsenal (Cannes are languishing one division below Ligue 2 at the moment). How much would he be worth on transfer to day? say £5 mill?

Cannes put in £500,000 of value into him over perhaps 5-7 years of coaching (say Wenger drives a hard bargain), Arsenal have put in over £4 mill. over 5 years. Who has contributed more to his development at a world class footballer?
*
How did you come up with those values? Just because Clichy might be worth 5M GBP on the market today doesn't mean that's the value Arsenal have put into his development. How do you quantify how much a team has put into a player's development anyway? Most of the values are driven by market forces. So when Madrid bought Zidane you're saying Juventus spent over 40M on his development? That's bollocks.

And couldn't Clichy joined a First Division French Club and learnt his trade there and then maybe later in his career moved abroad? Would he have been a lesser player? Who knows. But the fact remains that many of these youngsters signed for Arsenal for economic reasons. Suggesting that Arsenal take most of the credit for these players' development is an insult to the other clubs. Then if that's the case why don't Arsenal sign some Malaysians over here and train them into professional footballers. Our national team would surely appreciate the help.
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post May 8 2008, 08:03 PM

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QUOTE(faris21 @ May 8 2008, 07:03 PM)
let see Big Four 1st eleven line-up

Manchester 6:5
Van Der Sar
Brown-Vidic-Ferdinand-Evra
Ronaldo-Scholes-Owen-Carrick
Tevez-Rooney

Chelsea 4:7
Cech
Ferreira-Terry-Carvalho-Cole
Cole-Lampard-Essien-Ballack-Malouda
Drogba

Liverpool 2:9
Reina
Arbeloa-Carragher-Skrtel-Aurelio
Kuyt-Xabi-Mascherano-Gerrard-Babel
Torres

Arsenal 0:11
Almunia
Sagna-Toure-Gallas-Clichy
Eboue-Fabregas-Flamini-Hleb
Adebayor-v.Persie

sorry if something wrong with the line-up,i dont know BPL too much
*
woo hoo bagus ... so it seems man utd can do the 6:5

faris21
post May 8 2008, 08:25 PM

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QUOTE(whoopa @ May 8 2008, 08:03 PM)
woo hoo bagus ... so it seems man utd can do the 6:5
*
they cant do soon since their young talent who is Nani,Manucho,Anderson and Pique not from Britain tongue.gif
berzerk
post May 8 2008, 09:25 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 07:20 PM)
How did you come up with those values? Just because Clichy might be worth 5M GBP on the market today doesn't mean that's the value Arsenal have put into his development. How do you quantify how much a team has put into a player's development anyway? Most of the values are driven by market forces. So when Madrid bought Zidane you're saying Juventus spent over 40M on his development? That's bollocks.

And couldn't Clichy joined a First Division French Club and learnt his trade there and then maybe later in his career moved abroad? Would he have been a lesser player? Who knows. But the fact remains that many of these youngsters signed for Arsenal for economic reasons. Suggesting that Arsenal take most of the credit for these players' development is an insult to the other clubs. Then if that's the case why don't Arsenal sign some Malaysians over here and train them into professional footballers. Our national team would surely appreciate the help.
*
Why not? Why else would a player be worth X mill more than another player?
Why else was Zidane worth 10 times more on his transfer from Juve to Real than his earlier transfer from Bordeaux to Juve 5 years earlier if not for the accumulated experience he gained at Juve?

Would Clichy be as good a player if he had played for PSG for the past 5 years? Fact is Arsenal has a superb record of developing young players.

Faris brings up a good point. Owen Hargreaves is an English player because he's obviously very English.
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post May 8 2008, 09:37 PM

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QUOTE(whoopa @ May 8 2008, 08:03 PM)
woo hoo bagus ... so it seems man utd can do the 6:5
*
If replace the keeper with Ben Foster, than can add 1 more foreigner.

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post May 8 2008, 09:42 PM

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other than arsenal fans,

dont be too soon shouting joy at arsenal's expense

they still can get through this homegrown thing easily.

see what arsene has done for few years? taking cheap talented african natives at young age and train them at arsenal. then we got some people like armand traore, that lanky no 4 (whats his name, forgot edi), eboue, bretner, et. al.

he also got some young englishmen at his youth set up, which is i think a good and brilliant thing to do. clubs will struggle to buy decent english players at decent price. what happening now is, DECENT english players SELL on big money.

remember Rooney, SWP?

i am sure rooney is a money well spent, but SWP?

and also clubs have to adhere to the FA rules that they cannot take youth players living 90 minutes/ 90 km (i am not so sure which one, better clarify) outside the clubs radius, which is absolutely xxxx type of rules. they only take in youths as trainees which lives within that 90km/ minutes from the clubs.

imagine arsene, and sir Alex - proven records of excellent managers and great youth set up - can overcome the 90km/minute rule, definitely there will be many english youth plying their trade in big, great clubs.

going back to blatter. nevermind. let him talk. i wonder where he was when Spanish League was the all conquering league in the late 90s?


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post May 9 2008, 12:35 AM

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EU reject Blatter quota

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Source
m o m o
post May 9 2008, 07:21 AM

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Seriously, I don't give two flying *fox about the England national team... why should I? I'd rather watch Croatia or even Russia.

We are football fans and we spend some good money in supporting our clubs, and we like to see good football... we seriously won't bother if the player is from Spain or St Kitts and Nevis, as long as that fella plays good football for my team and shows he means business, I am a happy man...

That, and one of the most basic tenet of democracy; the freedom of movement and pursue of happiness. So, we are playing dictators now? Trying to limit the employment opportunity of honest people? If you have an offer to work in a company in another country, everything you've wanted in a career are there for you, ambition and monetary wise, would you be pissed if some joker and non-person (like Blatter) comes and say you may not. Hmm?

Or, let's say, if you are the boss of a company and the best people to take your company forward are people from abroad, would you hesitate, bearing in mind the survival and prosperity of your company and its shareholders are at stake. Hmm?

Granted, you might be able to coach and mentor a few locals (bearing in mind this is not definite), invest in some training courses which involves time and monetary costs (bearing in mind none or very very little of which will come from a governing body of the industry) and I can't head-hunt prospects from other nations to do this. Fair?

And some people are actually listening to Sepp Blatter has to say? This is the same guy that said female footballers must wear shorter shorts, coz the are sexy. Enough said.
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post May 9 2008, 11:06 AM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 05:40 PM)
You may keep dismissing it but whether we like it or not there isn't a huge market over here for the Italian or Spanish game. They just don't see the returns.


Let us assume for a moment it is only a language thing. I do listen to logic and the reason I keep bringing this up is because I see potential for other leagues to really penetrate the Asian market if they really wanted to. David Beckham signing for Real Madrid is one such example. While one player might not make a world of difference, what if a few Premiership favourites were to cross over? What if the Spanish were to employ former Premiership players to do their English commentary? All I'm suggesting it isn't impossible if they thought it was important enough. Maybe they don't?

QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 8 2008, 09:42 PM)
other than arsenal fans,

dont be too soon shouting joy at arsenal's expense

they still can get through this homegrown thing easily.

see what arsene has done for few years? taking cheap talented african natives at young age and train them at arsenal. then we got some people like armand traore, that lanky no 4 (whats his name, forgot edi), eboue, bretner, et. al.


For starters I'm not taking the piss out of any club. I am only addressing your statement because you brought it up and it reminded me of an article I read regarding African football players.

Here you go. I found the bolded statement particularly interesting :
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


A matter of morality I suppose. African being an impoverished nation is being exploited. Anyone watch the movie, "Blood Diamond"? It's not legally wrong to buy a diamond but knowing what measures could have been taken to obtain it might play on the conscience of some.

QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 8 2008, 09:42 PM)
he also got some young englishmen at his youth set up, which is i think a good and brilliant thing to do. clubs will struggle to buy decent english players at decent price. what happening now is, DECENT english players SELL on big money.

remember Rooney, SWP?

i am sure rooney is a money well spent, but SWP?
Most clubs would like to have some English blood in their veins. I'm just curious though. Who are the English youth players you are referring to? Many youth teams have a large number of English players, naturally being England and all but how many do you reckon will graduate to the senior side? It's cheaper to buy proven foreign talent than it is to invest in one English player hoping he'd make the grade. It's the same problem faced by the other Premiership sides. At Liverpool we are hoping the likes of Hobbs and Anderson will make the grade but the last time someone broke through to the senior side was Stephen Warnock and even then we sold him to Blackburn.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 9 2008, 11:12 AM
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post May 9 2008, 11:28 AM

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with more chances to homegrown talents, this may benefit the england's national team in the future.
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post May 9 2008, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(yngwie @ May 9 2008, 11:28 AM)
with more chances to homegrown talents, this may benefit the england's national team in the future.
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That is the usual reason for this sort of ruling but really are english players being deprived of opportunities in their own country?

In the past few eyars you can see all the young players come through at Man City, Middlesboro, West Ham. Even Arsenal youngsters have a chance to play, except they go elsewhere to ddo it (see Pennant, Upson & Bentley). In the case of Bentley, he's now good enough to be an england player. Why complain about not being able to play for the big 4 or only having the chance to play for middling teams like Middleboro when english players are unwilling to go play overseas at a reduced wage?

That england failed to qualify for Euro 2008 is due to the weakness of the manager, not the players & even if the number of foreigners are reduced in EPL, what make its more likely that England can do better in tournaments than the QF stage?


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post May 9 2008, 11:43 AM

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QUOTE(yngwie @ May 9 2008, 11:28 AM)
with more chances to homegrown talents, this may benefit the england's national team in the future.
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which is an english problem, not a global problem if you ask me. the clubs are not responsible for the development of the national team, the FA is. if the FA wants a change in the system, they can propose it, but i believe blatter is suggesting such quota for the sake of the national team, which again, is none of our concerns, as far as i noticed.

anyway, the EU has voted against blatter's plan, so i guess we're still watching bpl the way it is now.
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post May 9 2008, 12:15 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 11:06 AM)
Let us assume for a moment it is only a language thing. I do listen to logic and the reason I keep bringing this up is because I see potential for other leagues to really penetrate the Asian market if they really wanted to. David Beckham signing for Real Madrid is one such example. While one player might not make a world of difference, what if a few Premiership favourites were to cross over? What if the Spanish were to employ former Premiership players to do their English commentary? All I'm suggesting it isn't impossible if they thought it was important enough. Maybe they don't?
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I think the problem here Duke is that you keep looking from just one point of view ie the South East Asian market. David Beckham did wonders for Real Madrid in penetrating the global market but as u brought up yesterday what about the other teams? And as far as I know the league isn't the one who decides to hire commentators. The media companies do. And as I've said before Skysports does provide English commentary for Spanish games. They just aren't aired here because no one here has paid the rights for them. It's not the league's fault in that case. And since you're so adamant about this issue maybe you can help me petition to ESPN Starsports for it laugh.gif I would surely appreciate it tongue.gif

This post has been edited by verx: May 9 2008, 12:16 PM
m o m o
post May 9 2008, 01:32 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 11:06 AM)
Most clubs would like to have some English blood in their veins. I'm just curious though. Who are the English youth players you are referring to? Many youth teams have a large number of English players, naturally being England and all but how many do you reckon will graduate to the senior side? It's cheaper to buy proven foreign talent than it is to invest in one English player hoping he'd make the grade. It's the same problem faced by the other Premiership sides. At Liverpool we are hoping the likes of Hobbs and Anderson will make the grade but the last time someone broke through to the senior side was Stephen Warnock and even then we sold him to Blackburn.
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Even Hobbs and Anderson weren't developed by Liverpool, they were bought from other academies...

Anyway, on the question of the popularity of other leagues, I can't see the other top leagues being popular here... and by popular, I mean that most casual fans will be able to at least name a few players and managers as well as know the strength of each clubs...

Commentaries? Could be a source of problem, because the BPL has got so much attention and treatment, with magazine shows, pre-match analysis etc.

Another could be the history of a particular nation, like Msia being an ex colony of Britain... Naturally, we tend to sway to Britain and it's popular culture... look at Spore, HK, India etc... we are mad about the BPL... and not only football, badminton, hockey and even cricket!

Some chose to follow a Spanish team or Italian team, maybe just to be different or for other intrinsic values, totally fine by me so long as he / she is not a band wagon jumper... I follow the La Liga simply because it is exciting... Italian league could put many to sleep but it is still very entertaining for purists... But it may be very difficult for these two leagues to break into the popular culture... even some of football enthusiastic friends (BPL naturally) find them both not so appealing... time is also very limited and the fact that La Liga matches usually airs at 2-3-4-5 am...
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post May 9 2008, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(m o m o @ May 9 2008, 01:32 PM)
Another could be the history of a particular nation, like Msia being an ex colony of Britain... Naturally, we tend to sway to Britain and it's popular culture... look at Spore, HK, India etc... we are mad about the BPL... and not only football, badminton, hockey and even cricket!
This is the issue I have yet to identify with. From the circle of people I know, not many watch/play badminton (although I do), hockey and least of all, cricket. Football is probably the most popular sport in the world so I won't attribute it to an English influence. I mentioned this to Verx before, and have to say that aside from the language, I find nothing English about me (well, the fact that I like beer perhaps). If anything I think we are largely influenced by American culture and when I saw we, I mean people of our generation, give or take a generation or two. I for one hate watching baseball or American Football for that matter.

American Culture vs. British Culture? In reference to our lifestyles (rap, hip-hop, etc), I think it's a close call. More like Western Culture rather than any one particular nation.
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post May 9 2008, 01:53 PM

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Perhaps looking at the overall number of players v 'local' players isn't as relevant as looking at the nationality of the key players in any given squad.
I hardly think that having 5-6 local squad players making up the numbers in a team where the stars are all foreign helps either.

Also, could it be that the fact that TV money is negotiated as a whole as opposed to being done by the individual clubs helping 'level the field' somewhat, hence making the BPL that bit more exciting and marketable?

Finally, the stats lie. The French league has a large number of 'localised' Africans, surely they aren't 100% local - even though many do end up playing for France. doh.gif
m o m o
post May 9 2008, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 01:42 PM)
This is the issue I have yet to identify with. From the circle of people I know, not many watch/play badminton (although I do), hockey and least of all, cricket. Football is probably the most popular sport in the world so I won't attribute it to an English influence. I mentioned this to Verx before, and have to say that aside from the language, I find nothing English about me (well, the fact that I like beer perhaps). If anything I think we are largely influenced by American culture and when I saw we, I mean people of our generation, give or take a generation or two. I for one hate watching baseball or American Football for that matter.

American Culture vs. British Culture? In reference to our lifestyles (rap, hip-hop, etc), I think it's a close call. More like Western Culture rather than any one particular nation.
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Not every aspect of the culture lar...more like the likes of sports, esp football... hockey is not big in KL, but in other states, it is played in schools along with football... badminton is a widely played sports here... cricket - not so much, only Indians I observe...

That is why you don't see us going ga-ga over American football and even the NBA has a very limited fan base... just like the La Liga and Serie A, limited fan base...


Added on May 9, 2008, 2:18 pm
QUOTE(madmoz @ May 9 2008, 01:53 PM)
Perhaps looking at the overall number of players v 'local' players isn't as relevant as looking at the nationality of the key players in any given squad.
I hardly think that having 5-6 local squad players making up the numbers in a team where the stars are all foreign helps either.

Also, could it be that the fact that TV money is negotiated as a whole as opposed to being done by the individual clubs helping 'level the field' somewhat, hence making the BPL that bit more exciting and marketable?

Finally, the stats lie. The French league has a large number of 'localised' Africans, surely they aren't 100% local - even though many do end up playing for France. doh.gif
*
Correct, correct, correct... it is like having a vegetable dish during an all-out BBQ dinner, it is there to make us all feel better...

Anyway, Blatter's motion got kicked which is always a good thing...

This post has been edited by m o m o: May 9 2008, 02:18 PM
mokhzaini
post May 9 2008, 02:30 PM

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Duke Red,

of course the thing with ethics in whatever we do is VERY THIN-ly defined.

thats why arsene was banging left and right about football. yes, he was HALF RIGHT, but to him football means the one with no visa oriented agenda. he wanted to build one good footballing side without to concern about wherever they come from.

but he is not in line with the FA or FIFA or whoever claims they are the taukeh of football. they wanted to have a large pool of national players and dont give a damn on clubs.

so, is arsene is at fault (because he doesnt care about wherever the player comes, plust the fact that english players cost bomb) or the FA/ FIFA who think clubs should breed more national players?

but yeah. i do support the argument that african players come cheap and their work rate are amazing. built oso very tough.

see that essien? hes the closest to a bull of all players i've ever seen. but if opportunity arise, he will slump to the floor with the slightest touch to his hair. lol


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post May 9 2008, 02:42 PM

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QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 9 2008, 02:30 PM)
Duke Red,

of course the thing with ethics in whatever we do is VERY THIN-ly defined.

thats why arsene was banging left and right about football. yes, he was HALF RIGHT, but to him football means the one with no visa oriented agenda. he wanted to build one good footballing side without to concern about wherever they come from.

but he is not in line with the FA or FIFA or whoever claims they are the taukeh of football. they wanted to have a large pool of national players and dont give a damn on clubs.

so, is arsene is at fault (because he doesnt care about wherever the player comes, plust the fact that english players cost bomb) or the FA/ FIFA who think clubs should breed more national players?

but yeah. i do support the argument that african players come cheap and their work rate are amazing. built oso very tough.

see that essien? hes the closest to a bull of all players i've ever seen. but if opportunity arise, he will slump to the floor with the slightest touch to his hair. lol
*
Money is at the root of it all, not player development crap we are being fed with...

FIFA makes noise, because without home-grown players, it diminishes their money-making World Cup...

UEFA doesn't care because the Champions League is making shitload of moolah...

Work rate of African players are amazing? Not entirely true, for every Essien, there is a Diouf...

That, and the fact that a lot of African players do not play well beyond their late twenties...


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post May 9 2008, 02:48 PM

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talking about english players, just read this

QUOTE
Martin O'Neill insists Liverpool have undervalued Aston Villa skipper Gareth Barry at £10million as he reiterated his determination to try to keep the England midfielder. O'Neill and Barry are due to have further talks after Sunday's final Premier League clash with West Ham about the future of the former Brighton trainee.

m o m o
post May 9 2008, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(MADReaLJL @ May 9 2008, 02:48 PM)
talking about english players, just read this
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I have to admit, Barry is worth more than 10 mil, but no more than 15 mil IMHO...

Over-priced Englishmen, the English are pricing themselves out of the game I am afraid...
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post May 9 2008, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 01:42 PM)
This is the issue I have yet to identify with. From the circle of people I know, not many watch/play badminton (although I do), hockey and least of all, cricket. Football is probably the most popular sport in the world so I won't attribute it to an English influence. I mentioned this to Verx before, and have to say that aside from the language, I find nothing English about me (well, the fact that I like beer perhaps). If anything I think we are largely influenced by American culture and when I saw we, I mean people of our generation, give or take a generation or two. I for one hate watching baseball or American Football for that matter.

American Culture vs. British Culture? In reference to our lifestyles (rap, hip-hop, etc), I think it's a close call. More like Western Culture rather than any one particular nation.
*
We are largely influenced by our parents and grandparents and so on and so forth and they were largely influenced by the British. Is it a coincidence that our most popular sports are football, badminton and hockey? That's because those games were introduced to them by the British. And they probably introduced British football teams to them too. I don't see it too far-fetched. I think basketball is the only non-British sport that has managed to garner a following here.

But when you talk about music it's obvious the American influence is the biggest influence there. But it's 2 different aspects of our lives you're comparing now. Apples and oranges.
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post May 10 2008, 11:58 AM

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england exports virtually none(except beckham, woody, robby and owen was a thing of the past) to other football playing countries. while there are a lot of sa, eu, us, ac, australia and even asian player playing their trade in england.
lack of international exposed maybe one of the reason that caused the england's national team downfall..... well i've never been a fan of 'em, anyway.
at any rate, blatter's move to limit the number of foreign players will not be able to help the england team. but certain top 4 club may suffer.
it's up to engayland player to up the ante,clicking as a team and being more competitive in international level.


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post May 10 2008, 12:25 PM

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QUOTE(yngwie @ May 10 2008, 11:58 AM)
england exports virtually none(except beckham, woody, robby and owen was a thing of the past) to other football playing countries. while there are a lot of sa, eu, us, ac, australia and even asian player playing their trade in england.
lack of international exposed maybe one of the reason that caused the england's national team downfall..... well i've never been a fan of 'em, anyway.
at any rate,  blatter's move to limit the number of foreign players will not be able to help the england team. but certain top 4 club may suffer.
it's up to engayland player to up the ante,clicking as a team and being more competitive in international level.
*
Agreed, English / British players reluctance to move abroad is a problem.. even when they move, how many are deemed a success?

Recent times, Beckham and McManaman... Gazza was OK at Lazio... Rush didn't do well at Juventus... Owen and Woodgate had a Spanish nightmare... Sparky at Barca - no spark...

Things may change, but not any time soon coz the BPL is the top league at the moment, no one wants to leave the golden nest...
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post May 10 2008, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 9 2008, 03:43 PM)
We are largely influenced by our parents and grandparents and so on and so forth and they were largely influenced by the British. Is it a coincidence that our most popular sports are football, badminton and hockey? That's because those games were introduced to them by the British. And they probably introduced British football teams to them too. I don't see it too far-fetched. I think basketball is the only non-British sport that has managed to garner a following here.


You have a point though the Chinese might lay claim to having inventing those sports. Out of the sports you've mentioned I think it's safe to assume that only football has generated a large following. I don't know that many people who play or watch either badminton or hockey. Football as a sport may have been introduced by the English and given the league an advantage but one could still like the game and follow another league, much like yourself. Handball is another sport that is popular at school level, at least when I was still a student, but how many watch the handball leagues on TV? Participation is one thing but generating a spectator following is quite another. Futsal is an example of a sport that many people play, but seldom watch. I've been to the KL World 5's and you'd expect the stadium to be full given the number of people that I've seen at any one tournament. I for one hardly played football, wasn't really good at it but I love watching the game. Measures have been taken to enhance the experience for the viewer by incorporating elements like having more camera's to give viewers multiple angles, mic's by the sidelines so we can hear what is happening on the pitch, etc. The Premiership has taken it a step further by not only promoting the game but also the clubs and the players which helped. How do I know? Well it may be a guess at this point and I'll leave you to make your own mind up but how many people do you know wear football jerseys but don't watch games?

QUOTE(verx @ May 9 2008, 03:43 PM)
But when you talk about music it's obvious the American influence is the biggest influence there. But it's 2 different aspects of our lives you're comparing now. Apples and oranges.
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America's influence transcends just music if you ask me. Look at our current political scene. Why are people now increasingly vocal? Why are we now taking to the streets and protesting for an open democracy, transparency and such? I seriously doubt we were brought up to challenge or oppose but rather to conform.


Added on May 10, 2008, 12:32 pm
QUOTE(m o m o @ May 10 2008, 12:25 PM)
Agreed, English / British players reluctance to move abroad is a problem.. even when they move, how many are deemed a success?

Recent times, Beckham and McManaman... Gazza was OK at Lazio... Rush didn't do well at Juventus... Owen and Woodgate had a Spanish nightmare... Sparky at Barca - no spark...

Things may change, but not any time soon coz the BPL is the top league at the moment, no one wants to leave the golden nest...
*
From an English perspective, I'd say Chris Waddle had the most success abroad. He was adored at Marseille. From a British perspective, I'd say it was Tony Cascarino. He scored an amazing 61 goals in 84 games for Marseille though they were in the 2nd Division at some point.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 10 2008, 12:32 PM
verx
post May 10 2008, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 10 2008, 12:29 PM)
You have a point though the Chinese might lay claim to having inventing those sports.
Agreed. nod.gif

QUOTE
Out of the sports you've mentioned I think it's safe to assume that only football has generated a large following. I don't know that many people who play or watch either badminton or hockey. Football as a sport may have been introduced by the English and given the league an advantage but one could still like the game and follow another league, much like yourself.
Football has the largest following. That can't be disputed. But to say that not many play badminton is perplexing to me. I'm sure most of us (if not all) here have at least played a game of badminton. How many can say the same for American football or baseball? And I'm very much in the minority when I chose to support a Spanish team. So are the corporates willing to invest in us? That is the question.

QUOTE
Handball is another sport that is popular at school level, at least when I was still a student, but how many watch the handball leagues on TV? Participation is one thing but generating a spectator following is quite another. Futsal is an example of a sport that many people play, but seldom watch. I've been to the KL World 5's and you'd expect the stadium to be full given the number of people that I've seen at any one tournament.
To be fair handball's popularity can't be compared to football all around the world. We aren't the exception. Futsal is a modern sport spawned from football. It's hard to compare. Our forefathers would not have even heard of the word back in the day.

QUOTE
I for one hardly played football, wasn't really good at it but I love watching the game. Measures have been taken to enhance the experience for the viewer by incorporating elements like having more camera's to give viewers multiple angles, mic's by the sidelines so we can hear what is happening on the pitch, etc. The Premiership has taken it a step further by not only promoting the game but also the clubs and the players which helped. How do I know? Well it may be a guess at this point and I'll leave you to make your own mind up but how many people do you know wear football jerseys but don't watch games?
The EPL has gone to great lengths to promote its league here. But then you can ask why don't they do the same in South America? As I mentioned before it's easy to only look from our side. But the world is a big place so I'm not complaining when the Spanish league prefers to focus in other markets.

QUOTE

America's influence transcends just music if you ask me. Look at our current political scene. Why are people now increasingly vocal? Why are we now taking to the streets and protesting for an open democracy, transparency and such? I seriously doubt we were brought up to challenge or oppose but rather to conform.
Again I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that if you are talking about music then our influence is from the Americans. If it's sports it's the British. If you're going to start bringing up other aspects of our lives that have been influenced by other countries/cultures we could go on all day here laugh.gif

QUOTE
From an English perspective, I'd say Chris Waddle had the most success abroad. He was adored at Marseille. From a British perspective, I'd say it was Tony Cascarino. He scored an amazing 61 goals in 84 games for Marseille though they were in the 2nd Division at some point.
*
Steve McMamanaman didn't do too bad either.
He is the most successful Englishman who played abroad after all. wink.gif

PS Duke don't u think we have gone wildly off topic here tongue.gif But great to talk to u. Cheers.

This post has been edited by verx: May 10 2008, 01:57 PM
m o m o
post May 10 2008, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 10 2008, 12:29 PM)
You have a point though the Chinese might lay claim to having inventing those sports. Out of the sports you've mentioned I think it's safe to assume that only football has generated a large following. I don't know that many people who play or watch either badminton or hockey. Football as a sport may have been introduced by the English and given the league an advantage but one could still like the game and follow another league, much like yourself. Handball is another sport that is popular at school level, at least when I was still a student, but how many watch the handball leagues on TV? Participation is one thing but generating a spectator following is quite another. Futsal is an example of a sport that many people play, but seldom watch. I've been to the KL World 5's and you'd expect the stadium to be full given the number of people that I've seen at any one tournament. I for one hardly played football, wasn't really good at it but I love watching the game. Measures have been taken to enhance the experience for the viewer by incorporating elements like having more camera's to give viewers multiple angles, mic's by the sidelines so we can hear what is happening on the pitch, etc. The Premiership has taken it a step further by not only promoting the game but also the clubs and the players which helped. How do I know? Well it may be a guess at this point and I'll leave you to make your own mind up but how many people do you know wear football jerseys but don't watch games?

America's influence transcends just music if you ask me. Look at our current political scene. Why are people now increasingly vocal? Why are we now taking to the streets and protesting for an open democracy, transparency and such? I seriously doubt we were brought up to challenge or oppose but rather to conform.


Added on May 10, 2008, 12:32 pm

From an English perspective, I'd say Chris Waddle had the most success abroad. He was adored at Marseille. From a British perspective, I'd say it was Tony Cascarino. He scored an amazing 61 goals in 84 games for Marseille though they were in the 2nd Division at some point.
*
Next progression of promoting a brand is promoting the people behind the brand i.e. the players, managers, etc. Human element sells... A lot of fans nowadays follow a football club but don't play the game, which is becoming the norm... but in the older days, we used to pretend we are our heroes while we play our football, trying to recreate a particular move or goal and all those, all fun of course... even to this day, we still do some nonsense like that... The capitalistic nature of the game would not give a rat ass if anyone plays, as long as people keep buying and watching... not very good for the game in the long run...

On the political take by Duke, I guess it's also a natural progression of society... as society matures i.e. being better educated, more sources of info, being financially better etc. naturally people will want more representation and voice... I guess old heads will stick to old ways, and a very good chance they'll be left behind... so much can be discussed on this, off topic anyway, so...

Yes, on Waddle, I guess he had success even for a lad coming from Newcastle. Hoddle did too, while others had relative success... but the sheer minuscule number of British players who have been deemed a success says a lot about the British mindset... not that I care anyway, I am only interested in one city in England...
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post May 10 2008, 09:24 PM

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I think Blatter worry English Club football become too dominant as show in the Champ league...
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post May 10 2008, 09:50 PM

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QUOTE(BeckhamSoccerTips @ May 10 2008, 10:24 PM)
I think Blatter worry English Club football become too dominant as show in the Champ league...
*
i do think he`s worry bout team like Arsenal which dun have any English player in their starting line up...
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post May 12 2008, 06:15 PM

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i think blatter is jus jealous tat the EPL is doing so gud.......but i think the quota thing makes sense....like u said money isnt everything ...........but.......if u haf money and bought all the good players in the world w/o having players of ur own nationality....i dun think tats fair play.........so tats y i think he is doing tis now.....to me, MU shudn have any problem if tis quota is implemented....the clubs tat will be having problems ( top four) will be arsenal , liverpool and mayb chelsea la....i dun remember arsenal having any other English players other then their own young star theo walcott......and liverpool are starting to buy english players now like gareth barry? ...hehe

 

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