What is it with Proton? Why so many name? We have the Waja CPS, Persona with IAFM. SO which is which? I know that CPS is Cam Profile Switching..but the rest?
Why so many names?then what about the previous generation Waja Campro? or GEN-2 Campro?

This post has been edited by ericmaxman: Apr 8 2008, 01:26 PM

campur
maCampro

yeah i wonder why too?

Because simply its -----> Buatan MALAYSIA?

Malaysian like buzz word, eg VVT-i, DVVT, VTEC, IAFM, CPS, lol.

IAFM mean what?

Here you go..

http://www.proton.com/innovation/rnd/campro.php

IAFM = ! M Fat Man

more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campro_engine

For those lazy ppl, i'll try to summarize. There are 3 Campro engines out there:
1. Plain old CamPro (all proton cars after Waja and before New Saga)
2. CamPro IAFM (New Saga and latest batch Persona)
3. CamPro CPS (Gen-2 CPS and Waja CPS)

The plain CamPro was supposed to have cam profile switching technology since the very first version, but it was dropped to save cost(?). As a result it had a big ugly torque dip at lower rpms (i.e. no power unless you rev high).

IAFM stands for Intake Air Fuel Module (lol @ i am fat man). I dont know how it works, but basically the torque dip is gone. No need to rev so high, easier to handle in city driving and traffic jams.

CPS is the real Cam Profile Switching technology, which also has the same effect as IAFM. Maybe a little bit more overall power. It comes together with something called VIM (Variable Intake Manifold) but usually it's shortened to CPS only.

Interesingly, if you try to read CamPro CPS in full (no short form) then it sounds like Cam Profile Cam Profile Switching. It should also be noted that none of these are cutting edge technology developed by proton. They exist in many other cars, probably under different names.

Sorry if i made any mistake in my post...cya

This post has been edited by yu_wang: Apr 7 2008, 10:20 PM

campro = no variable cam, no variable valve, no nothing

iafm = TVIS found on 1st gen 4AGE from AE86 from year 1985

cps = variable valve lift which dont work. a sophisticated and well designed engine with valve lift tech should make 165hp like B16A. this "new technology" could be found in 1988 EF9 CRX B16A

vim = variable inlet manifold

today is 7/4/2008. phailed

This post has been edited by athlonxp: Apr 7 2008, 10:19 PM

Thats why they doesn't mention Campro CPS, just CPS. Even the emblem at the boot also just CPS 1.6.

To be fair, the hp in CPS is low than the older VTEC engine, some are contributed by complying with Euro-4 standard (something about polution etc... ).

technology followed far from behind the century eh?

Whoops. I stand corrected, thanks.

from the 80s

What to do.. Even CPS they got from Lotus, if develop from scratch..

Maybe they want to drop the name 'Campro' becoz it already have bad reputation..

Then again, Gen-2 CPS engine block still says Campro CPS. I have photographic evidence.

Same with Waja, but Campro is not mention in car registration..

then what is in the registration?

campur?
o maCAMPRO ?
hehe

CPS 1.6 only.

btw, rebore the campro block and fit bigger bore piston to increase the displacement lor....

errr...IAFM is external device at the air intake rite?so,is there any chance to put it to normal campro arr??

I prefer changing the hi-cam to a higher one. Can save petrol if kept revving under 4k rpm.

I think its possible.

it tot original cam campro oledi use high cam.or i'm wrong???dat's why campro power only comes at high revs.

CPS has 2 set of cam, once hit 3.8rpm, it will change to high-cam.

u can't compare with an old generation engine. new engine has stricter rules on emissions etc etc.

try compare the CPS 1.6 with Toyota Altis VVT-i 1.6 or Suzuki Swift Sport VVT 1.6. that's the closest that i can compare.

CPS is leading in that comparison theoretically.

This post has been edited by cloudstrife07: Apr 8 2008, 12:07 PM

change to highcam can save petrol??..

2 sets of cam??... or u mean the cams has 2 profile lobes like vtec??...

somehow i dont see any difference in performance during switch over of the cam profile....

Campro is the engine family. They're phasing out the normal Campro and are now offering it in two flavours.

1) Campro IAFM - think Honda i-DSI
2) Campro CPS - think Honda VTEC

---

Added on April 8, 2008, 6:46 amI think there's not much engine block to bore it already unfortunately

This post has been edited by paultantk: Apr 8 2008, 06:46 AM

The 2nd cam in CPS is not as 'wild' as VTEC and it also engage early (3.8k) compared to VTEC.

seriously, this is the first time I heard such thing as installing high cam can save petrol.

so, they basically have the secondary cam eh? How's the activation of the higher cam? Is it similar of to the VTEC's?

I thought CPS is something like DVVT, VVTI, etc?

can install CPS or IAFM to older CamPro engine? How much the cost?

CPS got two profile cam (low lift and high lift)... As long as keep revving before the activation point, it still use low lift, thus normal FC.

B16A is useless below 5000rpm even with B20B block but after that .....
For drivability and fuel economy I think CPS is better.

And if so the CPS is better, how come the redline is still at 6500RPM (same as 2002 Waja). I thought it can rev higher?

The actual red line is 7200 rpm (rev cut). Try for yourself la....

CPS = cannot perform smoothly

It's quite smooth actually... have u actually driven one before?

As mentioned earlier, in THEORY, it can outperform VVT-i and those. Anyone tested yet?

noler

IAFM is about variable length intake manifold... something like VIM, but controlled mechanically.... totally different with i-dsi.... i-dsi utilises 2 sparkplug at each cylinder.... they fires in sequence for good fuel saving or fires together for better power.... it is controlled by car onboard ecu....

then whats the use of cps leh??... jz to cover the torque dip in the dyno chart??..

nope... think CPS as something like vtec.... they have similar number of camshaft with any other engine.... but normal engines have 1 cam lobe per valve.... but cps/vtec has 2 different cam lobes on 1 valve... when cps/vtec activates, a solenoid activates and slides a rod to connect both cam profile rocker arm together and thus, the valves play according to the higher cam lobe/profile...

understand??..

can.... get complete set cylinder head and intake manifold with wiring and ecu all together and fit into ur existing campro...


ehh wait... does normal campro has the same cylinder block as the new campro cps??...

should be as proton is fitting it in all cars in stages

already tested the new saga / gen2 and waja cps. helping my friend to decide either on gen2 or waja.
compare with the campro without cps, the one with cps has better and smoother ride.
and most of all, better low end torque distribution.
no more auto revs / jerking

Gen2 or waja? why no persona or waja? more comparison..

quoted for pure win and gold status.

VIM cover the torque dip I thinks. Because CPS open earlier than VTEC, it cannot use a wild cam like VTEC. A high lift cam would only give optimum power a high RPM. The higher the RPM, the higher lift is better. VTEC open at 7k (if not mistaken), thus it can utilize higher cam than CPS. High cam (high lift) is useless in low RPM. This is what I understand about cam profile system. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

CPS is for volumetric efficiency for the engine due to the inertia of the petrol + oxygen mixture entering the combustion chamber..

vtec open at about 5k plus i guess.... 7k almost end of the power graph lor....

campro cps using what ecu??... siemens??... u think anyway in the future someone would take campro cps cams and regrind the higher profile camlobe for better performance??.... den we can have power jump/increase like vtec or mivec...

u've mistaken VIM for CPS ler...

owh.. really ar? hehe.. y ar? so, what is VIM and what is CPS?

for b series...vtec open at 5800 rpm till rev cut and close down at 5500 rpm...

Dont know much bout VTEC, but isn't 5k is too low, even MIVEC open at 5.5k..

Donno what ecu CPS are using, how to know?

I also hope R3 would try to experiment regrind the lobe, which I think is possible ... But how to change the activation point?

VIM are commonly mistaken because CPS and VIM both are usually referred as CPS only..

Put new ecu or piggyback?
Find vafc....woops....find cafc .
Haha.

from what i understand through readings from proton website & learnings..

what actually happend when we suddenly ram the accel pad is,
1st, more air come in,
2nd, due to bernoulli principle, the air 'drives' the fuel to come out from inside a venturi tube alike..
3rd, they mix together and enter inlet manifold...

this whole process takes time..
sometimes, in sudden accel, more air come..
the air flow cannot drive fuel to go out the venturi instantly...
thus, creating a weak mixture to be burned in combustion chamber...
oh yeah, it lags just milisecond, maybe microseconds..
but, the impact to the engine performance is tremendous...

so, they introduces the IAFM...
IAFM is all about adjustment made at inlet manifold..
it 'injects' fuel at the same proportion as the amount of air entering..
thus, creating a stable (same fuel-air mixture proportion) entering inlet manifold..

so, it helps reduce in 'power lagging' when we sudden ram the accelerator pedal..
and yes, it is due to inertia principle.

but, due to the same fuel-air proportion entering the combustion chamber, it does not help in increasing the horsepower.. it just able to give instant power..

however, at the inlet valve...
the mixture still have problem to enter the combustion chamber.. yeah, again it is due to inertia..
the mixture does not have sufficient time to enter combustion chamber bcoz the valve open and close at a very high speed... the time interval is so damn small..

so they introduce the CPS..

CPS is the adjustment of the cam, so that the inlet valve opens more, or longer, to let more air come in and more used air go out at high rev., to reduce error due to mixture inertia... how? by increasing the valve stroke length..

more mixture DOES enter the combustion chamber...
more used mixture DOES goes out from the combustion chamber to the exhaust..
in other words, the engine have more volumetric efficiency...

so, it does gives more horse power..

however, it does not disturbs the otto cycle opening (leading) and closing (lagging) degree..
nah~~ im not going into otto cycle anyway..

anyway...here some quotes from proton website..

the problem is with proton do not have the ability to produce a high revving and reliable engine at a reasonable cost..proton can put in any degree cam lobe they want..but the engine will not be reliable because it is made by proton at constant 7-8k rpm.

cps is running on a rather high cam profile (but not high enough to produce astonishing power), this make low end suffer and make fuel economy worse.

if proton want to make it a high peformance engine, the low rpm power too will suffer badly like a B16A or 4AGE.

we can say that campro is something in between power and fuel economy. but both dont works

cps as a high performance engine = phailed
cps as a fuel economical engine = phailed

japanese manufacture rarely produce those high peformance engine in low price family saloon anymore.

athlonxp

in GEN CPS and Waja CPS

both engine equip with VIM at low end, CPS at high end.
I don't see "make low end suffer and make fuel economy worse" in it.

Is CPS high performance engine? Maybe but not as high as vtec. I don't see any recent Honda 1.6litre car with vtec. Maybe compared with City/Jazz 1.5 Vtec?
CPS never meant to be fuel economical engine but with the VIM, it does gives some improvement.

Thus it isn't fail. Its just not good enough compared to the mature vvt-i or dual vvt-i.

is satria neo still stucked with campro?
or it has already upgraded with cps or iafm?

vim at low end? cps at high end? proton website tell u this of course..but real life it is not like this

CPS is not high peformance engine and not fuel economical engine..then wat is this engine good at? boat anchor perhaps..

if cps isnt mean for fuel economy..why should proton make something that is not economical and put it in a low cost everyday family saloon?

I've managed to get average 18cent/km with highway cruising at 140km/h (CPS engage) and often rev till 7k rpm.. I've notice that by cruising at 120km/h and less revving above 4k rpm, I've managed to get 16cent/km. My previous ride, Saga LMST also give me 16cent/km for 120km/h cruising.

IMHO, Gen.2 and Waja is not a low cost family car. Saga is.

Gen.2=sporty
Waja=premium saloon

yeah like i mentioned up there. sometimes THEORY can't be use in REAL LIFE situation, hence need hands-on testings.

ya,in theory we only see the power of the engine.but what in real life alot other things have to be considered xspecially power to weight ratio.and even how well the person drives each car.

I don't think at low rev CPS can perform as efficient as VVT system as the latter varies the timing across the RPM range. But the best I think is i-Vtec where the lift is varies across the RPM range and VVT-L system (variable valve timing + lift) .

Someone with CPS please give comments...

Already have.. have uploaded 0-175 sprint video in Waja CPS thread an LYN top speed thread.

Do you own a Waja CPS?
CPS for better performance, VIM for better fuel economy.

From the specs, the Waja CPS comes with CPS+VIM. So it isn't a fuel economical engine? Theoritically, it is compared to CamTakPro. Thus this engine beat CamTakPro in term of power and fuel efficiency, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Remember, it is an improved version compared to CamTakPro. Not compared to vvt-i and vtech.

I was driving waja 4G18P, it gave me 19cent/km for town driving.
Based on sphiroth driving method with high rev etc, 16cent/km certainly a good improvement. No?

The best I get on Waja 4G18P was 16cent/km, that was pure highway cruising.......

VIM = variable intake manifold

at the intake manifold of the engine, it has 2 separate path for air/fuel to enter.... 1 is longer, another one is shorter.... when to use which one??... well, longer one is used during light throttle or cruising.... longer intake manifold path allows air and fuel to mix properly prior to combustion... besides, long intake path induces certain amount of backpressure, which is good for low end torque, especially for auto tranny cars...

shorter intake manifold path is used during heavy/full throttle... shorter path means air/fuel able to reach the combustion chamber faster.... thus, more power at high rpm range.....

what about IAFM??... its basically the same with VIM... the only difference is VIM is activated electronically while IAFM is activated via vacuum hose (mechanically)....

CPS is as i said before, similar with vtec/mivec technology.... the camshaft has 2 separate cam profile per valve.... 1 is normal street cam, another is highcams.... below a certain rpm activation point, it runs on standard cam profile.... pass that activation point, it switches to higher cam profile lobe, which will induce more power.....

why CPS and IAFM/VIM phails??... VIM phails because there isnt any major difference manipulating the intake length path... CPS phails because the higher cam profile isnt as great/powerful/high as vtec or mivec.....

err.... by manipulating the ecu mayb??... as far as i know, vtec has a vtec controller which controls which rpm to activate the rpm... not sure if proton/R3 will create some sort of gadget for CPS or not....

wait, i dont think it is necessary since there isnt any significant switchover between both cam profile... haha...

CPS and vvt is totally different thing lah... vvt/dvvt/vvti all those manipulates the cam timing (advance or retard according to driving condition/style)... while cps the technology of the valvetrain, similar to vtec or mivec....

Why do you say IAFM and CPS fails? doesn't that mean that VTEC also fails and all the earlier variable intake manifold fails?

It's not fail it's applied differently not according to what you like that's all. I keep seeing paper figures being quoted here. VTEC as fun as it may be only lasts what? 3 seconds in 3rd gear before you hit the redline?

I'm sure if proton made it as aggressive as VTEC, there will be people saying 'whatlah same only have to rev high'

I dont think VIM/IAFM phailed since it removed the torque dip in Campro. I also don't think CPS phailed although it maybe not as great as VTEC. At least it allows me to get 0-100km/h approx at 10sec and to 175km/h in 35sec without any modification.

Both 'valve timing' and 'lift' has its own advantage and disadvantage. Thats why I said that VVT-L is better since it has both. Valve timing at low rev and lift at high rev. I-Vtec uses solenoid to control the valve lift, giving it variable lift. CPS uses VIM and lift to produce a 3 stage engine operation.

okla... dont say it fail la... say it incomplete.... isnt outstanding....
vtec engines took years and millions of money to improve its technology... we'll see how cps will fair in the future...

yea... jz like malaysia football.... didnt lose 10-0 consider ok lor.... lost 2-0 considered win as well...

True2.. CPS can't be considered as a perfect engine, more like a decent engine only. It actually quite challenging to do R&D for Campro as the cost is high and total sell volume is quite low compared with other engine. Thats why they use CPS from Lotus.

About the torque dip, it is a problem that should exist in the fist place until someone decided to release the Campro without the cam profile system.

how the cps operate?
i mean, like vtec it uses rocker arm n solenoid to allow oil pressure engage the high lift rocker arm.

got any cps cross/cut away section of engine/head ar?

No idea.. interested to know also.

Found this.. but cannot understand oso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkE6oQnCuWI&feature=related

This post has been edited by sphiroth: Apr 8 2008, 10:02 PM

CPS doesnt have same effect as IAFM.. they are totally diffrent system

they need to comply with emission standard.. get ur facts right before blindly bash.. u can notice most cars especially the corolla altis 1.6 vvti producing low and lower power

the campro is not meant to be read as cam profile..
its a name, juz that the word derrived from the word cam profile

original campro power comes in high rev because there is a torque dip in low rpm, hence u need to rev surpass the dip to get back the power it should have

2 set of cam since it is DOHC, not because it is CPS..
they have 2 sets of lobe on 1 camshaft

again with your blind bash
high revving engine as in 4G92 MIVEC and B16 VTEC is because the lobes is a wild 1 and u need to keep revving to extract all the power out..
since the campro using milder profile, revving pass the max hp and torque is a waste as u dont get any significant power and yet the fuel is drained
im using MIVEC auto and i can easily 140km/h without switching the second lobe

indirectly u r saying latest i-VTEC all are trash as their redline also till 6.5k

CPS is considered a VVT system as it varies the valve timing but not continously..
VVTL-i has been phased out due to bad emission it make..

Ooo.. So the correct one is 2 sets of lobe on 1 camshaft, not 2 cam sets.

Isn't CPS varies the lift, not the timing?

actually i don't see what's this commotion about.

it's a new generation 1.6 engine that has to abide the emission rules etc etc and ppl comparing it with an old valve-timing 1.6 that runs crazy on high revs and huge hp due to much loosen rules at its time.

"comply to future exhaust emission legislation requirement" or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

true, i can't compare with other 1.6 engine because the only new generation engine that i can compare with are those VVT ones and not VTEC/MIVEC ones (in which Campro shares the same characteristic as them)

and i can't compare with many other engines either because this Campro is DOHC unlike most cars around this CC range that uses SOHC (new gen engines)

well, i'd hold my horses and see what Campro 1.8 and 2.0 will do (if proton came out with it la)

This post has been edited by cloudstrife07: Apr 8 2008, 11:00 PM

Those who say that CPS "fails" because the high-lift cam isn't as powerful as Japanese engines like B16A, please consider this:

Why is the Toyota Altis 1.6 with VVT-i have even less horsepower than the plain non-CPS Campro engine? Same goes to Nissan's 1.6 engine.

Engines today are not just all about power. It's also balancing fuel economy and emissions, as well as drivability (low-end torque). I have absolutely nothing against Honda engines. My dream car (realistically) is still either a 4th-gen Honda Prelude or the mid-90's Accord with a H22 engine swap.


The CPS principle works very similar to the old VTEC engines, by having 2 sets of cam lobes. However, they are not as "wild" compared to engines like B16A. Yes, it's an old tech compared to the continuous variable valve timing that VVT-i and i-VTEC has.

The VIM and IAFM principle both works similarly by altering the length of the intake manifold. This helps mix the air and fuel better. The difference is that VIM is electronically operated and IAFM is vacuum-operated, if I'm not mistaken. Again, this tech isn't very new, though it definitely helps the Campro engine.

This post has been edited by mTk: Apr 8 2008, 11:16 PM

cps operates like vtec... wanna know how vtec operates??... watch this..



technology is the same... but design might be slightly different.... thats why CPS is called cam profile switching... it switches to higher cam profile at certain rpm....

my car also can hit 140kmh without any mivec/vtec/cps/vvt/dvvt/vvti larr...

CPS is not VVT ler.... VVT is variable valve timing... it varies the valve timing continuously according to driving condition.... CPS, as i said, switches cam profile like how mivec does....

The different cam profile causes the valve timing to be different, so yes, CPS does vary the valve timing, just not continously like VVT-i or i-VTEC (old VTEC is not continuous). You said CPS works like VTEC what. I thought VTEC = Valve Timing Electronic Control?

This post has been edited by mTk: Apr 8 2008, 11:19 PM

vr agree.... but still disappointed on campro cps.... hope things will improve in later campro cps batch....

---

Added on April 8, 2008, 11:20 pmVTEC = Valve Timing Electronic Control ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC

This post has been edited by the_catacombs: Apr 8 2008, 11:20 PM

OK, Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control then. Still, my same point remains. VTEC = variable valve timing. Just not as continuous and advanced as today's stuff like i-VTEC, VANOS and VVT-i

of coz.... i-vtec is more advance compare to vtec.... because got 'i' mah....

Care to clarify?

This post has been edited by sphiroth: Apr 8 2008, 11:37 PM

since it utilises high cam profile at higher rpm like vtec or mivec, why not make it a little wilder and produce more horsepower??...

Since petrol is getting pricier everyday.. And the reliability issue.

This post has been edited by sphiroth: Apr 8 2008, 11:47 PM

Yup... Just like mivec, not every version using the most powerful RS version. And not every VTEC using B16C...

CPS R3 anyone?

Yes, i agree they are totally different. But they both eliminated the torque dip didn't they? That's why i say same effect...juz my opinion

[sarcasm] Fine, CamPro Cam Profile Switching. Sounds much better. [/sarcasm]

varies lift.. okay, when u switch to aggressive lobe, it open/lift the valve longer for more air intake etc etc..
thats y u said it varies the lift of the valve hence the timing of the valve also varies accordingly
thats y it is still consider VVT

i stand to be corrected though

boss, diffrent case coz that basher said all CPS/VTEC/MIVEC engine with wild profile will be underpowered if the profile is not activated.. i wana tell him even without turning on MIVEC, i still able to easily reach 140km/h

btw, the VVT that u mention about is more like VVT-i lol..
any technology that change the timing of the valve opening/closing duration can be considered as VVT

as far as i know, RS version of MIVEC engine is the same as regular 4G92 MIVEC..
RS is the car trim option, like VTi, VTi-S as in Honda..
RS is a strip down version of mirage cyborg to make it lighter, suitable for Rally Sport
if u r talking about RalliART tuned then diffrent lor

cps dont eliminate the torque dip, its the VIM that eliminate it..
VIM and IAFM working principle should be the same.. CPS only switch the camlobe, nothing much

---

Added on April 9, 2008, 1:56 ambesides, why is there the need to discuss/bash the name? since it is named campro then campro lor
nobody read PROTON as PeRusahaan OTOmobil Nasional right?
or PERODUA as PERusahaan Otomobil KeDUA Berhad?
imo, campro is a good name.. too bad, tarnished by the limp campro lol

This post has been edited by imperialrealcs: Apr 9 2008, 01:56 AM

waitin for that particular person to reply


CPS 1.6 has 125 HP

vvti 1.8 has 135 HP

I said 1.6 didn't I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_ZZ_engine#3ZZ-FE



The 3ZZ-FE is the 1.6 L (1598 cc) version built in Japan. It is found in Asian Toyota Corolla Altis which is available in countries such as Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand and Taiwan. In South Africa the motor can be found in the Rux 160 and Corolla 160. The entire exterior design and chassis is the same as the American Corolla. Bore is 79.0 mm and stroke is 81.5 mm. Max. Output is 109 hp (81 kW) @ 6000 rpm. Max. Torque is 111 lb·ft (150 N·m). of torque (150 Nm) @ 3800 rpm.

Applications:

* Toyota Corolla (Europe, 109 hp)
* Toyota Corolla Altis 1.6E (Asian, 110 hp)
* Toyota Corolla and RunX 160 (South African, 81 @ 6000Kw and 146 @ 4400Nm)



OK I lose. The Asian version of the Altis 1.6 has 110 bhp too, with a much better torque figure (not the max torque, the curve) than the Campro. The CPS has better horsepower and same amount of max torque though I'm not sure which one has better low-end torque.

Still, my point is that horsepower numbers don't mean everything.

This post has been edited by mTk: Apr 9 2008, 02:34 PM

errr... not you...
the other person...


and CPS torque curve climbs and max out at 4.4k rpm
but at 2k rpm onwards, u have more torque then non-cps campro and more importantly, there is no dip at 2.5k - 3.5k region...


This post has been edited by kcng: Apr 9 2008, 02:59 PM