i'm in the same guild as hwh, and i'll just like to add on what he said. sorry if i may not be as civil (i'm the guild drama-llama) or coherent (i'm actually sitting in lecture atm stealing free uni-wide wireless internet kek)

i quit the game abt 2 months ago bcos in all honesty i didn't enjoy the company of some people. however, i've been paying for subscription and gave my account to the guild because of what i owe to the people i enjoyed playing with. people are what keep you in the game, and after a period of time you owe a basic duty of care to the raid. it was easy for me to quit because my role was small, and I kept my conscience clear by knowing that even if i'm not raiding with my char, the guild will continue to benefit from repaying the faith they showed in me. otherwise it would have been all too easy to ebay a warglaive rogue for a few grand (i'm not in the screenshot but was in every other attempt including back on the ptr, though who was actually playing the char is not constant)

i'm living example that you can bring a downie to your guild's first illidan kill and still do it. i died in phase ONE. til today i still get shit for it. fact of the matter is if someone is as fail as me in the raid it should not be possible. you could even go one step and say pve gear is too easy to get. there isn't that same amount of pride wearing t6 as compared to wearing that t3 chest or ring anymore, which screams "i killed 4h" or "i killed kelthuzad". as mentioned, 2050 guilds killed illidan. there isn't even an epeen value anymore to tier gear bcos of badge/pvp gear (other than warglaive kek) which in some cases are superior to t6.

this is exactly why epics should be a show of skill. using hwh's example of mages, if you have 2 mages in full badge gear how do you tell one is better than the other? recruit both and see who wipes your raid more? the epics that they get should at least represent experience and dedication, if not skill, and make it easier for guilds to recruit. all of us worked our way up the ranks, starting from pvping with decent people and doing 5mans, getting discovered and invited to lesser raiding guilds, proving your worth and moving up. artificially trying to give casuals, lacking the experience (i will refrain from using the word 'skill') by giving them gear that's the same level "evens the playing field" you in fact cheapen the effort of experience. if anything, i agree with hwh that badge loot makes it harder for raiding guilds to recruit.

i would really love to experience doing a boss as it is meant to, the whole process of initially smashing your head against a brick wall until it cracks, as mesochistic as it sounds it's actually really fun. i actually had most of the fun in naxx trash where we didn't have guides and had to figure out ourselves what they did, and how to circumvent them. however, for the sake of progression you have a basic responsibility to come prepared, so you can't really afford to do that. that could mean alot of things, which for me included respeccing to leatherworking, farming and stocking 53 flasks (not including 60+ tokens in my bank), 200+ haste pots and even scrolls of agility/strength way before sunwell was even on PTR. all in all i spent at least 8k gold preparing for sunwell to even get on ptr. that's not including the preparation you put in from studying videos and conversing with players that tried the encouter. just to illustrate, i have 8 different illidan kill videos on my PC. i dare say no casual put in that amount of effort in getting their badge loot, something mildly inferior to what we're getting. sometimes it's even better than what i can get in raids for rogues, like the badge loot boots and neck, new ring (overpowered wtf) and crossbow. let's not even compare how pvp weapons with a measly 1850 PR requirement is the best until warglaives. even then, have you any idea how small the dps increase was when i upgraded to my warglaive it's such a joke, i gained a whopping 11dps according to the EJ spreadsheet. that means brutallus will require 3960 less damage to his 10million hp over 6mins to be killed, which is a huge reward for farming illidan for months. "just because we have a life and can't spend 10 billion hours a day sitting in front of the computer like you nerds" isn't justification that they should be made on par. instead of spurring casuals to become raiders, you're doing the opposite in encouraging raiders to go casual, which is the gist of hwh's rant in that raid gear is no longer rewarding. if players are unable to experience end game content, it's precisely because they don't put in the effort required in coordinating 25 people to do an "easy scripted event". they should be encouraging that, instead of being counterintuitive and discouraging participation in raids.

this is exactly what is lost. everyone is "purple of gtfo" that it doesn't matter anymore. i could do 100x H mech and be decked in epix, and that should somehow make it justifiable for a raid guild to accept me bcos of have 100x experience in h mech? you used to get respect for the experience it entailed when wearing epics, and if you screwed up people would mock you. now the distinction is no longer there. arrogant and elitist as it sounds, you used to be able to sit in IF in t3 and have people actually stop and look at you. the physical manifestation of experience in terms of gear no longer holds any weight.

sry if i'm starting to digress and rant. i'm not really thinking straight cos i'm only having 5min train of thoughts trying to understand lecture at the same time. fyi, blackrock has more than 20 guilds (too lazy to check progression thread, think it's ard 24) that have killed illidan. i just wanna say nerfing content and making gear easily obtainable isn't the way to promote raiding i'm sorry. when a guild that killed shahraz a few weeks before managed to down her on the 3rd pull of the 1st night then ask us "how did you people spent 3-4 weeks on such an easy boss lulz" i feel like junking my t6 shoulders. that actually pisses me off more than giving casuals easy badge epix in further cheapening our credit. it's probably why you lose dedicated players because the effort does not justify the rewards, just like in the example of Inverse brought up by hwh. either fix your fights before releasing it, or force guilds that do not have the coordination to do it to buck up, instead of just nerfing the encouter and giving them free loot. the nerfs to bosses are the reason pvpers and casuals are crying abt how easy it is that we pvers get gear. maybe blizzard succeeded in "allowing more players to participate in end-game content", so congrats i guess. next step: allow warglaives to be bought with badges.

ps:

you know that's a lie! you were 2nd to me! also, sorry my lecture's over now and don't have time to proofread what i typed.

everyone needs epics... because they are epic wrt to the hit rating thing, the badge loot boots that i'm wearing atm (socketed with 2x +10 hit rating gems) makes it the best in the game pre-2.4, superior to even mother shahraz's boots, there just isn't anything better til t6 boots. I'm not saying all the badge loot is overpowered, but when the best item in the game is bought with badges that i collected like 1 year ago, better than a drop from the 3rd last boss in BT, something is wrong. the new 2.4 badge crossbow is also superior to any range weapon i currently have, on par with the best sunwell raid drop, so it would be a waste of time for me to get the raid drop when i can get it from badges (which also drop from raid bosses lol). the 2.4 badge ring is perfect to pair with illidan's ring, even superior to the 3rd timed chest ring in ZA. i full run of BT nets me ~17 badges alrdy without even trying, it's so ridiculously easy to obtain. i was really impressed with blizzard's idea of an efficiency test with timed ZA chest loots that separates mediocre raids with experienced raids. when we first got our bear mounts (last timed chest) it was extremely exciting because it required finesse, instead of the old ZG "guys we have 7 days to clear this instance, and along the way hope the boss drops a raptor or tiger mount", and at the end of the ZA run you had a nice bear to show for it. i can only hope they introduce more of this, though even this nice concept of bt-quality rings from a timed ZA run (3rd chest) is ruined by introducing superior 2.4 badge ring to trump it. why bother doing za timed now other than for aesthetic bears if it provides no pve upgrade (from a pure pve standpoint)?

That being said, i will applaud blizzard on the atiesh concept in naxx. to obtain an atiesh was truly a legendary and deserving achievement. collecting 40 shards, killing kel'thuzad and c'thun would garuntee that you will get one if you're good. well of course, that is assuming most guilds assign the shards to their best player. having an atiesh means you're good enough to kill 2 of the hardest bosses in the game, as well as prob being the best in the raid for the guild to give it to you. our atieshes were given to hwh and finwe, and no one in the guild would question their credit. i'll even say the scarab lord mount was a pretty decent concept in that you actually had to actively do a ton of crap, with the help of at least a 40man raid to defend the stupid NE base from attack. it was an insanely long and tough questline, but at least it reflects the legendary status. i tried it, gave up at Maws (the shark dude) cos it was too tough for me and i was too 'casual'. i do not deserve it, and i did not get it, that's fair. wrt to the old honor grind, it was mindless but i'll credit the r14s even if some say it "doesn't take skill only hardcore org grp stomping pugs" because it at least required effort for you to be oustanding from the community. today, if a guy spent 6 hours in 1 day to farm an item, a casual could spent 1 hour each for 6 days and get it. what's the difference really? i haven't even started crying abt the new crafted gear. sure the recipes drop from sunwell trash, but it's boe and can be sold on AH. plus the recipes drop from sunwell trash, which anyone can enter atm, not even from a boss unlike the rare enchants that dropped from twin emps in aq40 that i sold for tons of gold. just for the record, the crafted leatherworking gloves and chest is the best in the game for rogues, superior to t6 or any other alternatives for that matter. being able to trade the boe crafted gloves is just a kick in the face for anyone who's had to go through the tediour of first learning hyjal trash, and then azgalor for their t6 gloves. you can now upgrade it in 2.4, for some gold. wow, i guess i should have spent my time killing mobs in elemental plateau instead of wasting gold dying on relentless waves of trash mobs for 30mins that reset after every boss attempt. people participate in say the olympics for the gold medal. now it's tantamount to "if you can run up and down the 100m track 50 times i'll give all of you the olympic gold". you might as well join the para-olympics. and i still see people with the temerity to cry abt "wow that Green guy, but got the olympic gold having to only run the 100m once while i have to do it 50 times, this needs nerfing i should only be made to run it once too". well excuse me, he broke the world record, while you did it 2 steps a day for the past 3 months to complete that 100m.

also, with the way the new system is set up with glaives, it's a total joke. undeserving people like me can get 1, while nihilum has a grand total of 0 warglaives to date. last resort has 1, and countless guilds are lamenting their luck. if nihilum has 0 glaives, i'm pretty damn sure no one else in the whole of blackrock deserves any and definitely not me. but the fact that we have 4 drops vs nihilum's 0 just makes loot as a reflection of skill a total joke. it doesn't even reflect experience, unlike the atiesh system, bocs when nihilum was killing illidan we were prob still trying to attune ourselves. this RNG system of loot distribution is absolutely stupid, and you would have thought blizzard would learn from the failure of thunderfury (elementium has 0 btw, while my old guild being much slower in progression in MC days had 9 bindings, that's 4 and a half tfury). you would think they would learn from the success of the atiesh to continue the trend. but clearly they chose to ignore the successes and failures of history.

wrt to that, there's no real way to validate their claim, which is why i always look at apps with a pinch of salt. most people just answer "aq40, naxx" anyway and i cbf asking for specific boss kills. asking for kill times is just tough on them and ourselves, cos i'm not gonna keep track of every single nerf bilzz chooses to introduce with every tuesday's reset. also the point of gear being with e-peen i totally agree, and that the true fulfilment in the game comes from killing the pre-nerfed bosses which only you yourself know. i was on the PTR 1% kalecgos wipe and i do have the sense of achievement you're right, but having nothing to show for it in the future deflates my epeen if he is not nerfed a single bit, i will congratulate players that kill him 2 months later with the same envy of skill i congratulate my guildmates for killing him now. with nerf bats, you're going to be skeptical abt someone wearing t6 bracers, and then turn and look at players who got it now and mistake them for being the same nerfed content farmers. while there's nothing we can do abt this and i personally can offer no solution (some bosses are just ridiculous like the v1.0 shahraz and definately needed fixing), the only thing i can ask for is for bilzzard to test their own crap before releasing it. Throwing us with a cockblock like shahraz 1.0 is just stupid, i never felt more helpless. it's like getting a well timed improved hamstring proc plus mace stuns into stormherald proc execute die.

on that note, i totally agree with quetzacolt that pvp and pve gear should not interfere. it's stupid that i can do absolutely no pvp and wear full pve+shadowstep and do reasonably well in arena. arena gear should be the best gear for use in arenas, and pve gear best for use in pve, period. i really liked the blizzard idea with pvp gloves, in that they give a boost solely to the pvp aspect of the game. in that way, i'm forced to trade wearing my t6 gloves for s3 gloves because i need that silence effect. perhaps a +1sec gouge bonus in s3 pants or +2sec blind in s3 shoulders (being the most 'difficult' to obtain) would encourage pvers to get pvp gear and wear it to pvp, instead of 'lulz 4pc t6 smashT' because as it is it just isn't fair, for rogues and paladins especially. that being said, pvp gear will have to be nerfed slightly because as it is now t6 chest is only marginally better than s3 chest. if there is to be such a small difference, i would expect at least make the personal rating requirement (which i feel every piece of pvp gear should have) hard to obtain like 2200 or something so i can respect people wearing it, instead of scoffing at every single scrub in welfare epics. that would fix point selling that everyone's crying abt (since you can't buy anything even if you have the points) but i would see it exacerbating the whole personal rating selling that's been going on lately.

wrt word of mouth recruitment, that doesn't happen all that often as you would like. i would say maybe 5 players in the raid are game-winners in a fight, 15 are outstanding players and the rest like me just make up the numbers. if anyone were to quit, chances are it's that last 5 that get carried through fights. if an outstanding player gquits, it's prob cos of some emo which you don't really want. from what i heard, last week we rejected some mage who was s1/s2 glad cos some people in the guild thought he was emo. you usually get negative word of mouth when it comes to intra-realm guild hopping, otherwise people would prob stick with the same guild. of course there are definitely good examples like zelvaris which we recruited from other blackrock guild and turned out great, but you also have recruits like me from another guild that turned out bad. as mentioned, x-server recruitment is even harder to assess. trial is a questionable thing, as it is generally more of a formality than a strict assessment; so long as the trialist doesn't give us headaches on every single pull he's good to go, cos we're that damn desparate for players due to how the top pve player base is slowly diminishing. we had 5 geared pallys on sunwell PTR but now we're left with 2. they recruited a new pally in kara/badge gear 2 weeks ago and decked her out in loot from every BT boss, then dragged her into kalecgos; a trial by fire in your first week because of the need to stack raid with the right classes. not saying anything abt her skill as i've never played with her before, but the point i'm trying to make is that we do not have the luxury of choice that allows people to just be replaced so easily. this was what i was trying to show in the example of my ignominous death in illidan p1, having stood in flame crash. it would have been easy to gkick me right there, but when you're in need of a filler for the raid you don't have a choice to say "no worries we can get rid of him and replace with someone 5mins later".

conclusion: all i've seen on this thread is "hwh QQ, xanthi QQ". this thread is abt kalecgos right? i prob should stop trying to derail it...

tldr: xanthi is an emo wall-of-text.

This post has been edited by xanthi: Apr 3 2008, 11:05 AM

i agree with what you say, and this was something i did alot in my old guild as an officer, interview every single worthy applicant before considering a trial. but you get like 1 app every few months, run out of people to troll. i still do it now casually talking to new pple asking what experience they had, but i'm worried i may sound rude by being intrusive so i try to keep it fairly glossed but i would definitely love to do it. most apps would have started playing late anyway and had no experience. it's nice to remininse abt the old lag or d/c deaths at thaddius etc, but it's more fun talking to people that you shared the fights with. ok i'm not making sense anymore, let's just ignore this

their fame is legendary don't get me wrong, epics wouldn't quantify it. completely off-track i know, but what i was trying to show is that the loot isn't given to the deserved. they lost out on luck, and granted they did kill gear check bosses likes brutallus, would you think back after a 1% wipe and wonder "had our 10 months of farming illidan given us 1 more warglaive, might we just have killed the brutallus right there"? of course, skill > gear, but as hwh mentioned that's not always possible. beyond the 1st boss kill, i would be kidding myself if i didn't think abt loot. am i a lootwhore? perhaps, but that's what keeps me going after the challenge is surmounted. gearing up is part of being prepared, which is why i felt the need to bring up nihilum and LR bcos they got so badly ripped off by RNG it's not funny.

interesting that you should mention gems, i always felt they should be somehow bop. could be the jealous streak in me talking (seeing how most non-melee can solo kite shahraz trash for drops) but i don't see why those stuff should be available to people that are not in the raid. if anything, bt gems being buyable with heroic badges is prob the dumbest thing blizzard can do to satisfy pvpers who are unhappy at the need to "pve for pvp upgrades", bcos instead of farming najentus trash (now that attunements are removed), they farm heroics. of course i'm happy i can put those stacks of badges (did you know badge of justices stack in 200s ) to good use, but i think bt gems used to upgrade bt gear should be obtained from a bt instance. if blizzard wanted to give parity to pvpers, let them buy epic gems with arena points. that should at least keep pvpers from point selling (well at least awhile longer before they start) and give them an aim to continue pvping after they've got full 5/5 s3, full honor gear, both dagger, mace AND sword and still have 5k capped arena points. you don't even need to sell points just so you can buy bt gems to give you the edge, the same way raiders optimise with bt gems to prepare themselves. imo, if i wanted a 10hit rating gem, i would have to get a bop lionseye that drops in the raid and have a JC cut it the same way you enchant bop gear before i can socket it. in the meantime, i would just have to use 8hit as a stop-gap. same as with pvp. if i wanted a 10agi gem, i would have to arena to get a spinel, then have a JC cut it. in the meantime, i use a 8agi as a stop-ap. that's what blue gems are in the game for. as it is now, blue gems are prob more worthless than green gems with how easy it is to get epic gems from vendors once the armory is re-constructed. at least with green gems i can make earthstorm and skyfire diamonds.

This post has been edited by xanthi: Apr 3 2008, 10:06 PM

Only works for shahraz trash. basically what they do (especially locks) is pull the trash pack, dot everything and kite it until you zone out of BT. I think the record so far is 5mobs killed in 1 kite, by 1 warlock alone. The pack instantly respawns once you zone out (since not all the mobs are dead) but you can still loot the corpses. Takes 5mins per pull or smth. You won't have access to shahraz though cos the door won't open until you've killed the first 6 bosses.

and i cbf making wall of texts anymore to answer the chasing-epics thing. To keep it short, it's what keeps people in the game when everything is on farm mode. Doing BT every week for 9months with nothing to aim for is, to say the least, boring and repetitive.

also, see hwh's post abt brutallus lol