for me, I define "overvalued" as Total Equity < Market Capital, even the company is making profit. I'm rather investing (for mid-term) than trading in US stock market, aiming for both capital gain and dividend. I'm not prepared for trading yet. Must learn from sifus here.

FNM/FRE are both zombies, got NEGATIVE in total equity in previous quarters report. It worth nothing.

This post has been edited by 瘟神: Sep 19 2009, 11:13 AM

well, i have to say that my money wire transfer took about 6 hours only to be shown in firstrade.
but C is not showing good performance and as usual I will expect it to drop to 3.5 in Oct.
The property loan for small business encountered problem too.
Consider buying it next month.

The expert also say Apr normally market will have major pull back but nothing happen.


How is the charge for your TT? Malaysia will charge about RM 10. But how about oversea bank charge?

The outgoing charge will be RM30 and receiveing wire will be USD 15. Quite expensive.

---

Added on September 20, 2009, 12:17 amAnyone can let me know is there any local bank providing cross-border trading? How much they charge?

Sometimes I will think that using US trading account is not cheap either?

Kindly advise.

This post has been edited by epalbee3: Sep 20 2009, 12:17 AM

Rate for OSK:

25USD (min) or 0.3% + 40MYR (min) or 0.6% per trade (US)

quite expensive, but with larger capital and with investing-minded should be ok if invest in high undervalued company.

compared to firstrade - USD 6.95, I think it is quite expensive.
But thinking of the time taken, commission charged, safetly wise, if you do not trade a lot (long term investment), OSK still worth it.
I heard that minimum for HLB is USD 20. But they don't have interface, need to call.
U use OSK service?

Yes, I'm using OSK for buying stocks in US. But need to tell remisier to allocate the fund for foreign trading first before buying stocks, cause usually they allocate $$ deposited for trading in local market only. I'm not sure about HLB's rate..

actually if want invest in US stock, then cannot be hold stock on short terms like daily basis
profit will be eaten away from costly commision and etc
honesty, i dont interested invest in foreign market
because local market still have opportunity to profit
it depend on he/she able spot this opportunity

anyone using firstrade and sogotrade before?just want to compare them,which one is better?

I agree with you that commission is high for certain brokers. IMO, opportunity to profit is everywhere, for both local and foreign markets, problem is that, whether one can spot the opportunity or not. SamGoss got part of the idea.

I in the process of open sogotrade. They had approve my application and ready to send the money. Since I using maybank for the transfer, the outgoing maybank charge will be RM 10 for online FTT. But 3rd party US bank charge not sure.

I don't think it expensive to trade using US trade. I trade using local account, Buy and sell will incurs exchange loss beside the high broker fee.

The only worry will be those company not exist in malaysia.

Some companies are very reputable in US and Europe (ADR companies) with strong fundamentals, just we don't know them.

The main concern is about the conversion loss/transfer fees/security.
If local company can offer a good price (like USD 15), I will consider using local company.

---

Added on September 20, 2009, 10:03 amThe TT fee for Maybank should be RM25 while the 3rd party usually charge USD 15.
In order to convert, you must pay RM 2 commission plus the conversion loss about a few cents per USD.

Can anyone recommend me of the local company that offers online cross-border cheap trading?

---

Added on September 20, 2009, 1:32 pmWho can tell me if I use HLebroking to buy share (RM5000), what is the commission involved for:
1) SG
2) HK
3) US
4) UK
5) AUS


This post has been edited by epalbee3: Sep 20 2009, 01:32 PM

Read back few pages and you have the all the rate charge for TT and trading.

Taken from somewhere:

假如烤烧饼的能够上市，股票赚的钱从哪里来？
　　假设一个市场，有两个人在卖烧饼，有且只有两个人，姑且称他们为烧饼甲、烧饼乙。
　　
　　假设他们的烧饼价格没有物价局监管。
　　
　　假设他们每个烧饼卖一元钱就可以保本（包括他们的劳动力价值）
　　
　　假设他们的烧饼数量一样多。
　　
　　——经济模型都这样，假设需要很多。
　　
　　再假设他们生意很不好，一个买烧饼的人都没有。这样他们很无聊地站了半天。
　　
　　甲说好无聊。
　　
　　乙说好无聊。
　　
　　看故事的你们说：好无聊。
　　
　　这个时候的市场叫做很不活跃！
　　
　　为了让大家不无聊，甲对乙说：要不我们玩个游戏？乙赞成。
　　
　　于是，故事开始了。。。。。。
　　
　　甲花一元钱买乙一个烧饼，乙也花一元钱买甲一个烧饼，现金交付。
　　
　　甲再花两元钱买乙一个烧饼，乙也花两元钱买甲一个烧饼，现金交付。
　　
　　甲再花三元钱买乙一个烧饼，乙也花三元钱买甲一个烧饼，现金交付。
　　
　　。。。。。。
　　
　　于是在整个市场的人看来（包括看故事的你）烧饼的价格飞涨，不一会儿就涨到了每个烧饼60元。但只要甲和乙手上的烧饼数一样，那么谁都没有赚钱，谁也没有亏钱，但是他们重估以后的资产“增值”了！甲乙拥有高出过去很多倍的“财富”，他们身价提高了很多，“市值”增加了很多。
　　
　　这个时候有路人丙，一个小时前路过的时候知道烧饼是一元一个，现在发现是60元一个，他很惊讶。
　　
　　一个小时以后，路人丙发现烧饼已经是100元一个，他更惊讶了。
　　
　　又一个小时以后，路人丙发现烧饼已经是120元一个了，他毫不犹豫地买了一个，因为他是个投资兼投机家，他确信烧饼价格还会涨，价格上还有上升空间，并且有人给出了超过200元的“目标价”（在股票市场，他叫股民，给出目标价的人叫研究员）。
　　
　　在烧饼甲、烧饼乙“赚钱”的示范效应下，甚至路人丙赚钱的示范效应下，接下来的买烧饼的路人越来越多，参与买卖的人也越来越多，烧饼价格节节攀升，所有的人都非常高兴，因为很奇怪：所有人都没有亏钱。。。。。。
　　
　　这个时候，你可以想见，甲和乙谁手上的烧饼少，即谁的资产少，谁就真正的赚钱了。参与购买的人，谁手上没烧饼了，谁就真正赚钱了！而且卖了的人都很后悔——因为烧饼价格还在飞快地涨。。。。。。
　　
　　那谁亏了钱呢？
　　
　　答案是：谁也没有亏钱，因为很多出高价购买烧饼的人手上持有大家公认的优质等值资产——烧饼！而烧饼显然比现金好！现金存银行能有多少一点利息啊？哪比得上价格飞涨的烧饼啊？甚至大家一致认为市场烧饼供不应求，可不可以买烧饼期货啊？于是出现了认购权证。。。。。。
　　
　　有人问了：买烧饼永远不会亏钱吗？看样子是的。但这个世界就那么奇怪，突然市场上来了一个叫李子的，李子曰：有亏钱的时候！那哪一天大家会亏钱呢？
　　
　　假设一：市场上来了个物价部门，他认为烧饼的定价应该是每个一元。（监管）
　　
　　假设二：市场出现了很多做烧饼的，而且价格就是每个一元。（同样题材）
　　
　　假设三：市场出现了很多可供玩这种游戏的商品。（发行）
　　
　　假设四：大家突然发现这不过是个烧饼！（价值发现）
　　
　　假设五：没有人再愿意玩互相买卖的游戏了！（真相大白）
　　
　　如果有一天，任何一个假设出现了，那么这一天，有烧饼的人就亏钱了！那谁赚了钱？就是最少占有资产——烧饼的人！
　　
　　这个卖烧饼的故事非常简单，人人都觉得高价买烧饼的人是傻瓜，但我们再回首看看我们所在的证券市场的人们吧。这个市场的有些所谓的资产重估、资产注入何尝不是这样？在ROE高企，资产有高溢价下的资产注入，和卖烧饼的原理其实一样，谁最少地占有资产，谁就是赚钱的人，谁就是获得高收益的人！
　　
　　所以作为一个投资人，要理性地看待资产重估和资产注入，忽悠别人不要忽悠自己，尤其不要忽悠自己的钱！
　　
　　在高ROE下的资产注入，尤其是券商借壳上市、增发购买大股东的资产、增发类的房地产等等资产注入，一定要把眼睛擦亮再擦亮，慎重再慎重！
　　
　　因为，你很可能成为一个持有高价烧饼的路人

Please refer to picture below:



Attached thumbnail(s)

The question is:

For US, UK and Australia, do we need to be charged local brokerage and foreign brokerage?

E.g.

RM 40 (local brokerage) + USD 20 (foreign brokerage) + stamp fees?

Too expensive.

yes, pay both sides. I'm not trading for foreign stocks, so not over concern on this (but I did feel "pain" ). Maybe will open an US trading account in future, such as sogotrade, firsttrade, or etrade, etc.

HLB does not offer online foreign trading if I am not mistaken

These 2 offers online foreign trading
1. CIMB (min USD 25 per trade, local brokerage fee fixed at RM20 on purchase, no local brokerage fee on sale)
2. OSK188

before meltdown (2006-12-31)
Citigroup total equity = ~120B
total outstanding share = ~4.9B

so the intrinsic value pershare = 24.48
at that time, the trading value for C is about 55,
citigroup was traded at about 2.3x intrinsic value

after meltdown
Citigroup total equity = ~152B
total outstanding share = ~22B (extreme dilution, from 4.9B to 22B)

(the intrinsic value calculation does not exclude prefered share, if exclude prefered share, the intrinsic value left for common share is even lower)

so the intrinsic pershare = 152/22 = ~6.9
possible USD devaluation in long term = give it -40% for worse case
so u gain this if u buy at 3.5
6.9/3.5 x 0.6 = 1.18 (around 18% gain)

if citi trades at 2x intrinsic value in the future, maybe 10 yrs later
2x6.9/3.5 x 0.6 = 2.36 (136% return)

so don't expect citi to go from 3 to 55 again 10 years later.

HLB only offers phone-call foreign trading.
Obviously the online brokery fee for US shares are too high, that's y most of us open a US broking account.
I chose firstrade, but I do think that Sogotrade is a better choice (but does not have mutual fund or bond features)
If you check the book value/share, it is about USD 14. So it might climb.

But the problem is: do you still have confidence with next year US economy? The US treasury move will definitely hurt the Citibank price, as it sell it at 3.5USD now. Who wants to push high the price now to benefit them? so next month onwards C price will be lowered a lot (<3.5)

intrisic pershare means nothing is a company is expected to face loses. (no dividence)

Kindly advise.