my parents just renovated our house.. v actually totally demolished the house and rebuilt it, from single strorey house to an 1 1/2 storey house..

v paid the contractor's fees accordingly and the house finished a month ago.. the house was supposed to finish within 3 months but it took 4 months.. the main problem is that till now v didn't get the CF and TNB just fixed the 3 phase electricity just a few days ago.. because of the CF and TNB delay v haven't pay the 10% of the payment.. by the way v r staying in the house already.

when my bro called the contactor today, he said since v delayed the payment he is taking legal action on us. he is going to sue my parents and bring the case to court. he asked us to pay the money where v suppose to.. he meant at the court. is it our fault? i need some advice



NOTE:

(+) the agreement was signed by the contractor and my dad only.. comisionner of oath isn't involved
(+) he said v delayed for the payment for 55 days but in the "contract" such thing not written
(+) v paid the 90% right at time without any problems
(+) CF not received yet, TNB fixed 3 phase wiring wiring just a couple of days ago
(+) the contaractor's company, ES**R*N MAINTANCE, JALAN BURUNG SIN**R, TAMAN BUKIT MALURI, KEPONG, KL (An Indian Company)

to anyone practising law, i need some useful advice.. feel cheated, and frustrated

please do not be cheated by such contractors

krishnath_87@yahoo.com
krishnath_87@hotmail.com

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 21 2007, 09:56 AM

17th november 2007

my parents just renovated our house.. v actually totally demolished the house and rebuilt it, from single strorey house to an 1 1/2 storey house..

v paid the contractor's fees accordingly and the house finished a month ago.. the house was supposed to finish within 3 months but it took 4 months.. the main problem is that till now v didn't get the CF and TNB just fixed the 3 phase electricity just a few days ago.. because of the CF and TNB delay v haven't pay the 10% of the payment.. by the way v r staying in the house already.

when my bro called the contactor today, he said since v delayed the payment he is taking legal action on us. he is going to sue my parents and bring the case to court. he asked us to pay the money where v suppose to.. he meant at the court. is it our fault? i need some advice



NOTE:

(+) the agreement was signed by the contractor and my dad only.. comisionner of oath isn't involved
(+) he said v delayed for the payment for 55 days but in the "contract" such thing not written
(+) v paid the 90% right at time without any problems
(+) CF not received yet, TNB fixed 3 phase wiring wiring just a couple of days ago
(+) the contaractor's company, ES**R*N MAINTANCE 77, JALAN BURUNG SIN**R, TAMAN BUKIT MALURI, KEPONG, KL (An Indian Company)

to anyone practising law, i need some useful advice.. feel cheated, and frustrated

please do not get cheated by such contractors


18th november 2007

the agreement about payment was only one page.. i will summarize the agreement..

-date of agreement between contractors and my parents (name and i/c number included)
- the purpose of the agreement is to the renovation (address of my house is included)
- the total cost of completion is RM*** ***
- the payment will be made in progressive
First payment - 30% on the starting work
Second payment - 30% on the completion of the upper storey concrete platrform/wiring/roofing
Third payment - 30% starts of plaster ceiling/ painting/ all fittings
Final payment - 10% on finishing of the whole job and handling of key
- the statement of that both parties agreed with terms.. ( contractor, and my parents signed the agreement)
- the rest pages of agreement is about the "rules and job agreement by contractor and landlord", "materials and work involved-interior,kitchen,
and etc"


after flipping through the agreement pages, under one title ELETRICITY its written
- main connection from TNB poles is 3 phase supply to meter board..

[] how should v suppose to pay the money when the TNB just fixed the meter only a few days ago?
[] is the work considered "complete" even before the meter is fixed?
[] he wants to bring the case to court not us... he doesn't want the money..
[] and also the staircase which was built isn't the same as as what drawn by the architect.. the spaces between the steps r the same as the rest of
the steps.. the drawn space is 7 inches but the contractor made 8 inches, 7 1/2 inches and some r less.
[] the front drain is partially clogged with cement and at the back, he didn't clean the debris after demolishing his makeshift toilet
[] in the "handling of keys" letter he didn't mention the date of completion and my parents didn't sign the letter


i appreciate all the replies.. thanks


19th november 2007

due to pressure and the scare that i can be sued for defamation and slander for vicious statement i decided to re edit certain details including the title and the contractar's details..
i feel very demoralized but i know have no better options..

need advice for everthing and everyone.. THANKS

20th november 2007

finally v got the letter.. i received the letter from the lawyer's office boy i think.. i was hoping for a suprise (maybe he thought of something big) but the letter was so normal.. the details of the lawyers notice:

{} the contractor shall not be responsible for any defects for reaons of your breach of the renovation agreement
{} the extra money is due within 7 days from receipt of this letter
{} extra work on good will basis that cost RM** *** upon our "request" which was not in original agreement agreement and renovation

all the good will work wasn't requested by us.. he gave the list of "good will" work that he did during the handling of the letter.. <the letter is about handling of the keys>.. v received the letter about 3 weeks back or nearly 2 weeks after v shifted in.. but my dad didn't sign or agree with the letter because he didn't mention about extra costs during or before renovation.. he did extra works which was unnecessary..

v have a list of defects which he didn't repair and he ignored them.. mostly the things in the notice isn't in black and white.. i don't see the hopes of him winning but i don't want to be over confident.. the money which he is requesting is double than the earlier 10% payment..

v r planning to repair the defcts and get the money from him..
the battle has just started..

what do u all think that v should do now?


krishnath_87@yahoo.com
krishnath_87@hotmail.com

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 20 2007, 11:49 PM

not valid in court case

unless the contract is signed and witnessed by a practising lawyer firm

and if it's not stipulated in the contract agreement, then it's a no-go. paymentwise or whateverwise.


edti: i am no laywer, but an engineer who deals with this kind of thing quite often. contractor an sub-con trying to threaten you if you withhold payment. so what?

This post has been edited by lucifah: Nov 17 2007, 11:19 PM

hmmm thought se7en is a lawyer?
would like to see wat's his opinion..
can learn something here..

hmmmm, what kind of contract did u use? standard form of contract or self draft?

ur trying to get CF for the building, did it have one before the works being carried out? btw, nowdays its called CCC if im not mistaken and there are alot of things need to be done to obtain this, a checklist of 21 item if im not mistaken.

contractually, did the agreement say anyting about the works to be carried out including obtaining CF by contractor part? are there any clause in the contract payment wise? how is it being done? according to progress? or lump sump? many things need to be cleared out first.

btw, worse case scenario, ur father is given court injunction to pay the contractor, plus losses because of u guys holding the money.

hope that clear things out a bit.

Does the contractor have finish his job considered you're already moved into the house?
Was the delay in part was due to the contractor's fault or is it because of TNB rendering the contractor powerless?

thanks for your reply bro.. actually v wanted the discuss the payment but he dropped the bomb..

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Added on November 17, 2007, 11:54 pm
yup v moved in already.. as a contractor he must finish the wiring and all.. its not our work right? what about the CF bro?

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Added on November 18, 2007, 12:02 ami'm new here, so i don't know how to get him.. need assistance..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 18 2007, 12:02 AM

my old house did have CF, but once its demolished, v had to apply for CF again.. the CF inspectors has checked the house but v haven't get the CF yet.. according to the law, v can't stay in unless v get CF... its a self draft contract.. v paid according the process.. 30%, 30%, 30% and 10%.. v r holding the 10% now.. v said v delayed for 55 days.. but its not written in the "self contract".. r v at the losing side?

Look at the terms of your progressive billing.

for the 10%, what are the terms?

I am assuming that your progressive billing is the same as any other common progressive billing where 'x'% will be due when 'y' condition is satisfied.

Namqul: There will not be an injunction against krishnath to compel payment because there is a binding contract between his father and the contractor. An injunction is used in this sense to prevent his father or stop his father from doing something. The proper term will be an order for specific performance. You are right about the CCC(Certificate of Completion and Compliance) replacing the CFO(Certificate of Fitness for Occupation)


It is best if you seek proper legal counsel instead of relying on anonymous opinion on a public forum.

Important: The readers are hereby advised to seek proper legal counsel. I disclaim all liabilities and will not assume any responsibility whatsoever that may arise from my statement or advice. Should my exclusion of liability not be accepted in the jurisdiction for which my statement or advice is being relied on then my liability will be limited to a maximum of Ringgit Malaysia 1.00

This post has been edited by schizophrenic: Nov 18 2007, 01:11 AM

well, info provided are not clear enough, so as the terms....
how people going to help you?

better seek help from a professional lawyer ^^

This post has been edited by cherryblossom: Nov 18 2007, 01:06 AM

what more info u need miss? i hope i can send the self drafted agrement to u..
thanks anyway for your time..

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Added on November 18, 2007, 1:27 amcan i know the chances of us winning the case? for me, i feel that v didn't do any mistake.. in the self draft agreement, its written, that the 10% must be given upon on finishing of the whole job nad handing of keys.. its a real headache..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 18 2007, 01:27 AM

but actually they did finish the job rite and hand over the house to u rite?? is they have the responsible about the CCC? or they just be responsible upon completiion of the house only?? u have to check that out.. might be they're on the right side..

This post has been edited by mutt: Nov 18 2007, 02:10 AM

you shouldn't have used a self drafted agreement in the first place.
since the mistake has been done, I shall not comment more on this.

what is the interest rate for overdue payments?
completion of the 'whole' job - is there a definition for this in the contract?
if no then you can always say that the certificate of completion and compliance has yet to be issued. Thus despite the keys being handed, the house is not completed pending the CCC. This is common practice for a house to be recognised as completed.

The purpose of a house is for occupation and if it is an offence to even occupy a house without CCC, could you consider it to be completed or even wholly completed? Where the contract is silent on this point, the courts will construe the ambiguous term(if the court finds this term to be ambiguous) '.....wholly completed....' against the party seeking to rely on it based on the Contra proferentem rule.

If he argues that the house has been completed and it must be completed before CCC can be issued. You can tell him that the completion for purposes of application is that he had supervised the erection and completion of the house and that to the best of his knowledge and belief the house has been constructed in accordance with the By-Laws. Until the CCC is issued, the house cannot be deemed to be wholly completed.

Anyway you are committing an offence by even staying in that house.

Building (Federal Territory Of Kuala Lumpur) By-Laws 1985
PART II - SUBMISSION OF PLANS FOR APPROVAL

By-Law 26. Occupation Without Certificate of Occupation.

(1) No person shall occupy or permit to be occupied any building or any part thereof other than a singly built detached house, unless a Certificate for Occupation, a Partial Certificate for Occupation or a Temporary Certificate for Occupation has been issued under these By-laws for such building.
(2) No person shall occupy or permit to be occupied any singly built detached house unless a Certificate of Completion and Compliance has been issued under these By-Laws for the singly built detached house and any failure to comply with this paragraph shall render such person liable to prosecution under the Act.


(nb)even if you're not in kl, the act below applies.

STREET, DRAINAGE AND BUILDING ACT 1974

PART V - BUILDINGS

Section 70. Notice of new buildings.
(27) Any person who-


(f) occupies or permits to be occupied any building or any part thereof without a certificate of completion and compliance,

shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred and fifty thousand ringgit or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or to both.


I STRONGLY advice you to seek proper legal counsel. By seeking proper legal counsel, you will be able to assess your chances of winning the case albeit not always accurate as well as receiving a professional and qualified recommendation.


Important: The readers are hereby advised to seek proper legal counsel. I disclaim all liabilities and will not assume any responsibility whatsoever that may arise from my statement or advice. Should my exclusion of liability not be accepted in the jurisdiction for which my statement or advice is being relied on then my liability will be limited to a maximum of Ringgit Malaysia 1.00

This post has been edited by schizophrenic: Nov 18 2007, 02:36 AM

try ask this in realestate.net.my, there r some legal frens there...

Schizophrenic is right on this matter, as there is no proper agreement on the house constrution issue, so it is hard to tell who are right or wrong.
Whether the self drafted agreement is accepted by the court or not, we don't know.

Better seek for professional advice on this matter.

Hope you can let us know how the issue progress later on, as others also can learn something from it and prevent mistake being made in the future.

Cheers.

Move to property section.

bro, i have updated the topic.. can i know your opinion? v will be getting a lawyer ourselves later.. the contractor hasn't gave the legal letters yet.. he just told my bro via phone when my bro called him yesterday.. he also added that v haven't pay after 55 days of "completion". but in the self drafted agreement such 55 days is not written..

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Added on November 18, 2007, 9:51 amthanks for your concern bro.. will usually court accept such cases? how long will these type of cases will drag?

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Added on November 18, 2007, 9:53 amthanks for the useful website.. i'm forwarding my issue there as well..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 18 2007, 09:53 AM

no worry on self drafted contract, it accept by the court, even verbal is consider a contract .......
but make sure u have the right legal consultant, why have to bring this to court ? u going to make huge lose on the legal fees, even u win the case ......

For the contractor, they have no problem with court cause they already pay the legal fees annually ...... no matter u win or lose the case, it going to hurt ur pocket ...... btw don't trust legal consultant word, they won't tell u 100% true and fact, they will ask u go for it and telling u have high chances to win the case .... (i kena kau kau before) .....

good luck ...

this is how i look at this matter:

1. no matter self drafted or standard form of contract, it doesnt matter since both are enforceable in the eyes of law.
2. there's no clause stating that u're liable for any delay/late payment, from what i understand
3. you said that 10% of the final payment must be made after completion and handling of keys - which i assumed has already taken place since u are living in the house
4. IMHO, obtaining CF is not the contractor's obligation, some planning authorities are.
5. is there any defects in the work? if there is, you could actually delay the payment until all defects are rectified, eventhough it's not stated in the contract, this is generally the practice of the industry.

so, IMHO, do not bring this to court...it will take u months or years perhaps. 10% final payment would not have cost a lot, so it would be better to cut the deal with the contractor privately rather than engaging any legal action. i'm not sure what is the real situation you or your hse are in, but what i understand is that you guys are delayed by one month, which again, IMHO, does not mean a hell lot. so, try to negotiate with the contractor, maybe you could offer a lower amount to the one initially agreed since the works were not completed within the agreed period. where are u staying anyway? kepong area? i noticed that the contractor is from TBM. i'm in kepong too.

just my 2 cents.
i'm in the construction industry anyway.

This post has been edited by kikurazz: Nov 18 2007, 10:04 AM

This the main problem of the TS has, the house hasn't get the CF or CCC as mentioned, if not mistaken, but TS already start to live in there, also wrong in the eye of the law.

I think the best way out of this issue is both party to sit down and having proper discussion and work the best out of it. If really go to court, both also are losing end. Legal firms are the ultimate winner. Even you have the case and have the right to win it, legal move is the last resort you want to take, as it just means hassle.

TS stated in the self-draft agreement : the last 10 is giving out 'whole job nad handing of keys.. '
While schizophrenic posted it it common practice


So how to define it? in the eye of the law, that's crucial if the self agreement is accepted.

The final 10% is worth how much?
They are probably just trying to scare you...
You don't have a CF yet probably means that your home is not completed.

Like cherroy said, it's probably better if everyone sat down and discuss the issue. If the final 10% is a small amount, it's probably not worth their time and money to go to court.

yes bro, i'm staying at kepong as well.. how can the house be completed when the TNB just fixed the meter board only a few days back? as what i updated in my topic, i believe TNB work is also under his.. the spaces between stairs r uneven and supposely he should break and rebulid it.. but he is giving 100001 excuses.. is there anything i can do? counter sue him maybe?

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Added on November 18, 2007, 10:53 amas what i have mentioned earlier, the contractor said that v suppose to pay the money at the right place.. its shows that he is determined to bring this case to court.. i don't know what's his problem when v r willing to pay the rest 10%..

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Added on November 18, 2007, 11:03 amuh? i don't what to say.. can u share your experience a little? so maybe everyone could learn something.. he is the determined to bring the case to court.. all of sudden..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 18 2007, 11:03 AM

The best way to overcome this is to get rid of emotion between the two parties so that you can minimize loss for both of you. First, arrange for a meeting with your contractor, negotiate a win win situation, deal with fairness on both side, avoid over confrontation and deal with a calm manner. Listen to their problems and make sure they listen to your probs too. If neccesary bring along both parties legal(your appointed lawyer) person to eyewitness this. Out of court settlement is the best solution to this.

if he had filed a summons and a statement of claim against you, you do not counter sue him. you file a counter claim against him.

as what the rest suggested, go for alternative dispute resolution.

justice delayed is justice denied.
I do not know exactly how long it would take for your case to be heard but either way ADR is a cheaper and faster solution. If ADR still can't resolve your problem then go to court to solve it.

Thread merged as there is another identical topic orignated from property section.

thanks bro. v r waiting for the legal papers to arrive.. i hope others don't appoint this guy as their contractor..

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Added on November 18, 2007, 5:57 pmsorry bro.. i'm still new here.. did mistakes while creating this topic..

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Added on November 18, 2007, 6:03 pmyup.. i think the case will run for a long period of time.. today v consulted another contractor and my house architect and they said there r many loop holes in the agreement.. he didn't do like what he and my parents agreed upon.. such as the stairs ( i have written details about it), and the gate.. in the agreement he wrote stainless steel gate but he only gave us wrought gate.. i hope these things will give us the extra advantage.. thanks bro for all your replies.. u had been very helpful.. thanks..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 18 2007, 06:03 PM

there you go. these details are important for you.

wish you all the best.

thanks thanks bro.. i appreciate your help..

Srry, need to get my terms right. but its ok, im no legal expert ahha.

yup, this is the best way we can see this so far. another important thing, your using self drafted contract rite? i dont know if this is as practiced, but if your using a standard form, things should be done through arbitration 1st before any court proceedings. maybe someone can clear this for self drafted contracts?

another thing is that, getting CCC is usually being done by consultants, for example, the bomba submission, jpp submission and stuff, are being submitted by respective consultants on behalf of the client and not contractors. so, it is not a normal thing for getting CCC as part of jobscope of contractors. This might be a good ground if he wants to argue later.

on the design part, yes, the contractor must rectify the problem 1st then he can only entitle for the payment for the works, and on top of that, you are not responsible for his works which is not according to the design. but i really think that these matter should be treated separately. try to sit down and have a discussion before any action is made. try to find best solution, a win-win situation which then leave both party satisfied.

with all the problems (stairs, gate, paymeny agreement, TNB), i don't know how he had the guts to say that he is bringing the case to court.. i'm just hoping the best.. anyway thanks the reply..

my guess is that someone in your family must have somehow pissed off the contractor big time as i am surprised that the contractor don't want payment but instead wants to sue you guys. It will take years before he gets any judgement, and what he gets out of suing you guys beats me? The most he'll get 8%-10% interest of that 10%.

Looking at your so called agreement, he get 30% advance before work start in stages, he already got his profit and 10% is nothing to him i guess.

As for handing over, it doesn't matter if your parents sign any handing over letter or not as you are already staying and as such works should be completed.

Anyway, call him and settle the matter, If he still not willing to settle... "feel good action" is go see a lawyer now and sue him first for delay in handing over the house plus rejected works like you mentioned about not constructing the staircase not in accordance to drawings (i.e. contract) and cost of clearing of debris. But this only prolong the matter and wasting time.

Ask our lawyer how about sending him cheque of the balance 10% via registered post or by hand to his office with a cover letter and make sure they acknowledge receipt of the payment/cheque. With this what is there to sue?

P.S. after thinking about it, the contractor now can sue you for lots of money for defamation as you have alleged that he is "useless" in public. Mod - remember the kennywong case?

This post has been edited by Gen-X: Nov 18 2007, 10:53 PM

@bolded part,
or it is stamped at a stamp office within 1 month of signing.


@TS,
Well, best is for you to consult a lawyer who is practicing in this line, because it is quite specific. And it sounds pretty screwed up though :S

uh... uh.. i really thought of that.. just let him to add another case on me bro... i want to continue this thread.. i want to update it according to this case.. maybe i sound quite egoistic but i have to take the chances.. what's with kennywong case bro? can u explain more of it? thanks for your honest reply bro..

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Added on November 18, 2007, 11:34 pmits not stamped or what so ever bro.. just signed and that's all

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Added on November 18, 2007, 11:45 pmbro, i changed the title already.. seems to be there r many things that i have to learn and be aware of.. thanks for your advice..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 18 2007, 11:45 PM

If the original document is not stamped or done with a commisionar of oath, then it is not legal, but it still carries water in court, but harder la as well as the government fining u for not paying stamp duty which is about 10x the amount (maximum la)

@bolded part
basically he is suing for defamation as well as slander.

This post has been edited by bryanyeo87: Nov 20 2007, 02:55 AM

dude next time if u need to do ID or renovation look for a better one, like those intro by fren or relatives.

Some details on some good ones + discount for lowyatians


Interior Design Consultant, has built its empire of design firm around providing services of construction from sewerage system to renovation and design for offices, factories and residency. From international industrial factories to well known hospitals... Interior Design Consultant signature can be seen at every stop.

Specializing in interior architectural design, Interior Design Consultant was founded in 1996. To date, the firm has designed and installed more than 1000 offices and factories nationwide. The firm offers the full range of interior architectural design services from initial space planning and design, building maintenance, renovation, electrical wiring, plumbing, painting, and construction. To better service the company's clientele, the firm one stop solution to all building maintenance and construction.

The firm's design philosophy is simple, design and construct for the market with the lowest price. No specific "style" or "look" is attributed to the firm, rather we create a custom project for each client and are very involved in research prior to beginning the actual design process. We seek to incorporate a geographical flavor in terms of price and design into each project by the use of experienced craftsmen, artisans and multi-tasking labor and involve themselves in the custom design of architectural details, furniture, lighting,
carpets and fabrics.

Interior Design Consultant is consistently named as one of the top construction and interior design firms by industry professionals. For years, IDC has been chosen by industry peers as most respected for work in the
field of construction and design

Our existing customer includes

Subang Jaya Medical Centre (SJMC) Sdn. Bhd
1, Jalan SS 12/1A,
47500 Subang Jaya
Selangor Darul Ehsan

HIL Industrial Berhad
Lot 3, Jalan Lada Sulah 16/11,
Section 16, 40000 Shah Alam
Selangor Darul Ehsan

Amalgamated Industrial Stainless Steel (AISS) Sdn. Bhd
Lot 6, Jalan Pelaya 15/1,
Section 15, 40000 Shah Alam
Selangor Darul Ehsan

VBC Manufacturing Sdn. Bhd
Wisma Vitar, Lot 590,
Jalan Batu Tiga Lama,
Kawasan Perindustrian Sungai Rasa
41300 Klang
Selangor Darul Ehsan

Pertama Metal Industries (PMI) Sdn. Bhd (listed)
Lot 7835, Jalan Haji Salleh, 5 ¼ Miles,
Off Jalan Meru, 41050 Klang
Selangor Darul Ehsan

TG Medical Sdn. Bhd (listed company)
Lot 5091, Jalan Teratai,
Batu 5 Off Jalan Meru,
41050 Klang
Selangor Darul Ehsan


Btw sorry to say IDC seldom renovate residential however depends on the relationship with cust, which in this case shouldnt be a problem for all lowyat-ians

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Added on November 19, 2007, 12:40 am1 more thing, i just bought a house. In the S & P(sales and purchase) agreement it clearly stated

No CF = Not completed

This post has been edited by donki85: Nov 19 2007, 12:40 AM

so many people r telling so many things.. anyway thanks a lot and all the best with your business..

bro, looks like nothing much u can do now since the fella insisted on bringing the case to the court...
anyway, good luck dude...

thanks a lot bro.

I think the contractor are trying to threaten you so that the case can settle out of court in which they can proclaimed to be winner and get a huge compensation from you.

Anyway, good luck on this case.

hahha.. vert true.. should be getting the legal letter today.. and then i update my thread.. thanks bro..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 19 2007, 11:51 AM

My suggestion to you is, to take the contractor up on his threat for legal action.

Firstly, he has to pay the lawyer at least RM 10,000 to start the action.

Secondly, it will take a long time (estimated) 1 to 2 years for the case to be heard, if he is lucky

Thirdly, just before the mention, if you settle the claim in full, there is no more case to be heard so automatically, everything ends there, of course I am assuming you dont have a counter claim, sometimes, if you do have a counter claim backed up by good reasons, the contractor ends up paying you

Either way you win, so friend, ask the contractor to carry out his threat and stop bothering you lol...






Footnote:
Shoot a letter to the contractor, putting all your grouses in writing. This would support your case should you need it later.

hahahhaha.. finally bro.. someone is thinking exactly like me.. v r not worried bro.. v don't want to fall for his threat.. thanks for all your support bro..
arigatou..

That is to show what is a legal contract (relevant to the case in question)

Whether the contract will be 'admissible' as evidence in a civil trial will be governed by Stamp Act 1949



whether there is a witness or whether there must be an attestation by a practicing lawyer depends on the type of agreement whether is it a charge, transfer of property, a will, etc. As a general commercial agreement, it is governed by the Contracts Act 1950. If there is no legal requirement for a contract to be witnessed and the contract was not witnessed, then the issue goes to the weight of the evidence not as to the legality of the contract.


I advice readers to seek proper legal counsel. By seeking proper legal counsel, you will be able to assess the validity of an agreement and its enforceability as well as receiving a professional and qualified advice.


Important: The readers are hereby advised to seek proper legal counsel. I disclaim all liabilities and will not assume any responsibility whatsoever that may arise from my statement or advice. Should my exclusion of liability not be accepted in the jurisdiction for which my statement or advice is being relied on then my liability will be limited to a maximum of Ringgit Malaysia 1.00

This post has been edited by schizophrenic: Nov 21 2007, 02:41 AM

Did you know that, if i were to write a contract on a toilet paper, it is admissible and it is a valid contract? But with proper witnessing.

Not paying stamp duty will only get you fined up to 10x the amount due (stamp duty)

But sometimes, you need to study the case and law yourself, as lawyers must not be trusted 120% fully in any event. and the advice given must be taken with a pinch of salt unless it is a fully trusted lawyer which has proven to you time over time to be truthful and reliable

This post has been edited by bryanyeo87: Nov 21 2007, 02:37 AM

maximum is Rm100 or 20% whichever is higher

Rm10 stamp duty = Rm100 so yea 10 times

RM1 stamp duty = RM100 so....100 times

RM505 stamp duty = RM101 so......1/5 times


I advice readers to seek proper legal counsel. By seeking proper legal counsel, you will be able to assess the estimated stamp duty of an agreement as well as receiving a professional and qualified advice.


Important: The readers are hereby advised to seek proper legal counsel. I disclaim all liabilities and will not assume any responsibility whatsoever that may arise from my statement or advice. Should my exclusion of liability not be accepted in the jurisdiction for which my statement or advice is being relied on then my liability will be limited to a maximum of Ringgit Malaysia 1.00

This post has been edited by schizophrenic: Nov 21 2007, 07:35 AM

as a contractor i belive that its his responsibilty to get the letter stamped.. his reasons for suing us is that v didn't pay the rest of the money.. our reason is that, he didn't repair the defects and didn't renovate like how it suppose it (not according the drawing and the renovation agreement). and we have a list of defects that he ignored..

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Added on November 21, 2007, 9:12 amwhat if the agreement isn;t by the second party? that's what happened.. while he gave us the "handling of keys" letters he wrote things that he did on good will and he charged for it.. my dad didn't sign it and the list of things are not in the original agreement which was done before the renovation..

This post has been edited by krishnath: Nov 21 2007, 09:19 AM

I am pointing out the legality of the contract and the effect of not stamping it and how it affects its admissibility.

I did not and have no intention of discussing the probative value and the weight to be attached to the details given.

Though I'll pose these questions. When you mortgage your house to a bank, will your bank stamp and bear the charges of stamping the Loan agreement for you? When you purchase a property direct from developer, will the developer stamp and bear the charges of stamping the S & P for you?

This post has been edited by schizophrenic: Nov 21 2007, 01:35 PM

oh yeah.. very true.. i didn't really think about that bro.. soryy..

Depends on the developer

Name me one developer who actually bears the disbursements(Stamping duty among other cost) of the Sale & Purchase transaction.

On the assumption that there are some who bears it and on the assumption that a simple majority would be able to represent the industry as a whole then
how often would you find a developer who actually bears the disbursements(Stamping duty among other cost) of the Sale & Purchase transaction or even consider that the few who bears it would represent the practice of the industry bearing such a cost so as to consider it as a norm although from a different school of practice.

I do admit there are developers who would bear the legal fees for the S&P but apart from that, the disbursements are borne by the client unless otherwise agreed. Even with this exception, how often would it be applicable?

There are banks who requires the client to bear the charges for stamping the Letter of Offer for the facility provided. In practice, all is done by the solicitor in his professional capacity representing the purchaser/mortgagor.

Based on these, I posed the question as quoted and bolded by you to the thread starter for him to consider. He may agree or disagree but the reasons why I am posing the question to him are as stated above.



I advice readers to seek proper legal counsel. By seeking proper legal counsel, you will be able to assess the burden of the parties with regards to the stamping and duty payable of an agreement as well as receiving a professional and qualified advice.


Important: The readers are hereby advised to seek proper legal counsel. I disclaim all liabilities and will not assume any responsibility whatsoever that may arise from my statement or advice. Should my exclusion of liability not be accepted in the jurisdiction for which my statement or advice is being relied on then my liability will be limited to a maximum of Ringgit Malaysia 1.00

Austral Development Sdn .Bhd. for Austral Yaara Link, Puchong



Thats why i said it is depends on developer mar

read the lines attached in light of this

QUOTE(krishnath @ Nov 21 2007, 09:09 AM)
"as a contractor i belive that its his responsibilty to get the letter stamped....."

It will go on to show that I am merely rebutting a presumption made by krishnath. I did not say I disagree with you but I clearly say it is not an accurate representation of the industry for krishnath to be making such an assumption.

Anyway since we're on this issue, it is not normal for contractors to obtain the CCC unless otherwise agreed. However, if the contract is silent and if the client's lawyer is really good, then it will be arguable.

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Added on December 4, 2007, 3:19 amOut of curiousity, who are the panel lawyers for the project you mentioned?

This post has been edited by schizophrenic: Dec 4 2007, 03:19 AM