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TSMC Says No Need High-NA EUV ASML Tools for 1.6nm, Intel Buy It Overpriced & White Mice
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 05:30 PM, updated 2y ago
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TSMC Says No Need High-NA EUV ASML Tools for 1.6nm Node but Intel Has Championed The Tech - Reutershttps://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/...pioned-the-techQUOTE TSMC says its newest process tech doesn't need ASML's High-NA EUV chipmaking tools that have been championed by Intel, but the foundry is exploring the tech for future use.
According to Reuters, Zhang told attendees of the event that the A16 process technology will not need the next-generation EUV lithography tools. This implies means that TSMC has found ways to cost-efficiently use EUV double patterning and pattern shaping to increase the achievable critical dimension of a modern Low-NA litho system beyond 13nm.
In contrast, Intel plans to insert High-NA EUV tools with its 14A manufacturing technology after it learns how to efficiently use them with its 18A production node.
TSMC is not standing still, though. The company is exploring High-NA EUV lithography for its future process technologies. The A14 node will follow A16, and as TSMC noted in its 2023 Annual Report, A14 development is well underway.
"TSMC started development and made good progress on 14 Angstrom (A14) technology, which aims to further improve speed, power, density and cost," the company's Annual Report reads. "Looking ahead to A14 and beyond, TSMC R&D will continue to explore next generation EUV (extreme ultraviolet) lithography scanners, conduct research on mask pellicles and blanks to support leading-edge technology and extend Moore's Law."
Using High-NA EUV lithography systems greatly increases fab costs as each tool costs $385 million or more depending on the configuration.
Chipmakers tend to re-use as many tools as possible, so TSMC may not be inclined to use High-NA EUV before it runs out of ways to introduce improvements to its production capabilities using Low-NA EUV tools. For example, last year, the company improved the critical dimension and pattern fidelity as well as lowered defect density by modifying photoresist and blank materials as well as optimizing mask process recipes. It also uses deep learning for inspection and discovering defects.
"In 2023, to achieve the wafer yield and productivity for lithography requirements at 2nm node, the R&D team improved the critical dimension, pattern fidelity, overlay stability, exposure durability, and defect mitigation of curvilinear patterns by EUV photoresist and blank material modification, multi-beam writer resolution enhancement, mask process recipe optimization, and advanced deep learning inspection," TSMC said in the report. "Future improvements will focus on developing new blank materials and new mask process technology at the A14 node and beyond."
TSMC's announcement of its A16 process technology (1.6nm-class) with Super Power Rail backside power delivery came as a surprise at the company's North America Technology Symposium 2024. Kevin Zhang, Vice President of Business Development at TSMC, said that the world's largest contract chipmaker had to speed up development of the production node due to rising demand from the AI sector, reports Reuters. TSMC will enjoy further cost reductions and cheaper manufacturing processes while maintaining similar solutions with Intel which pays way more to use ASML's latest High-NA EUV tools?
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zerorating
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May 3 2024, 05:33 PM
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so, mana 3nm senakdragon?
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tankerbell12345
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May 3 2024, 05:36 PM
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its neingbour is fuming with jealousy and envy
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE(zerorating @ May 3 2024, 05:33 PM) so, mana 3nm senakdragon? Kambing soon. TSMC says no need to buy overpriced ASML's overpriced High-NA EUV machines for now, wait a while we develop new technologies to delay using it for time being to save costs and if China has something more interesting in development to bypass ASML's sanctions?
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TaylorS8
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May 3 2024, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE(zerorating @ May 3 2024, 05:33 PM) so, mana 3nm senakdragon? SD 8Gen4
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zerorating
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May 3 2024, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE(TaylorS8 @ May 3 2024, 05:39 PM) that is currently rumored to be 4nm. This post has been edited by zerorating: May 3 2024, 05:45 PM
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zenix
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May 3 2024, 05:41 PM
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## Executive Summary
* **TSMC's A16 process technology doesn't require High-NA EUV tools:** This means TSMC has found ways to optimize Low-NA EUV for its needs, potentially saving costs. * **Intel plans to use High-NA EUV with its 14A node:** This shows a different approach, with Intel prioritizing the potential benefits of High-NA EUV. * **TSMC is exploring High-NA EUV for future technologies:** While not needed for A16, TSMC is actively researching High-NA EUV for its A14 node and beyond. * **High-NA EUV is expensive:** The high cost of these tools is a factor in TSMC's decision to delay their adoption. * **TSMC is constantly innovating:** The company is actively improving its Low-NA EUV capabilities through various means, including material modifications and deep learning. * **A16 development was accelerated due to AI demand:** The growing demand from the AI sector prompted TSMC to expedite the development of the A16 node.
**Key Takeaways:**
* TSMC and Intel are taking different approaches to EUV technology. * TSMC is focused on optimizing its existing Low-NA EUV capabilities while exploring High-NA EUV for the future. * Innovation and cost-efficiency are key factors in TSMC's technology decisions. * The AI sector is driving demand for advanced chipmaking technologies.
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SUSYH1234
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May 3 2024, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 05:37 PM) Kambing soon. TSMC says no need to buy overpriced ASML's overpriced High-NA EUV machines for now, wait a while we develop new technologies to delay using it for time being to save costs and if China has something more interesting in development to bypass ASML's sanctions?  interesting in development? curi la, apa lagi.
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE(YH1234 @ May 3 2024, 05:42 PM) interesting in development? curi la, apa lagi. US asked for it when they sanctioned China. Now things will get even more interesting.. Angmoh can buy overpriced useless ASML junk and decline even more in the upcoming price wars.
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tankerbell12345
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May 3 2024, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE(YH1234 @ May 3 2024, 05:42 PM) interesting in development? curi la, apa lagi. ya like the historian claimed that the junk that resembles chinese boat is part of their historical culture. same gang This post has been edited by tankerbell12345: May 3 2024, 05:46 PM
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HikayatSalju
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May 3 2024, 05:47 PM
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TSMC milk China.
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a_dot_el
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May 3 2024, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE(YH1234 @ May 3 2024, 05:42 PM) interesting in development? curi la, apa lagi. Deploying additional spies
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE(HikayatSalju @ May 3 2024, 05:47 PM) Suddenly Taiwan and Japan is now grouped along with China.
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tankerbell12345
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May 3 2024, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 05:51 PM) Suddenly Taiwan and Japan is now grouped along with China.  skorea, japan , taiwan, sg, and pg are grouped as part of old chna/ hkkien empire. Wumao categorised them as US barking dgs lol. today mdern chna wants to copy old chnas sucess and replaced them but they have trouble swallowing them up. This post has been edited by tankerbell12345: May 3 2024, 06:03 PM
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SUSAzurues
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May 3 2024, 05:59 PM
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BBB UUU intel share price or not
Probably the dirt cheapest among all the semiconductor
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pandah
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May 3 2024, 06:07 PM
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meaning the tech is too new and still not mature? wait for 2nd gen machine later let intel be the tester now?
will the cost rise if buy later due to inflation?
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hotdayum
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May 3 2024, 06:10 PM
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Means new phones will get cheaper?
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE(pandah @ May 3 2024, 06:07 PM) meaning the tech is too new and still not mature? wait for 2nd gen machine later let intel be the tester now? will the cost rise if buy later due to inflation? State owned corporations where got affected by inflation one when their main shareholders are the ones printing money. Besides, newer generation products are always more cost effective and reliable. Among all of them, the unannounced China next move is the most interesting when they've been sanctioned by ASML to purchase the High-NA EUV machines. What is their alternative solution? TSMC has came out to reveal there are other options while still exploring using ASML's High-NA EUV Indirectly it is saying that other solutions are out there and China's potential retaliation is not paper tiger.
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE(hotdayum @ May 3 2024, 06:10 PM) Means new phones will get cheaper? If the choose to use TSMC more economical solutions. Intel will most likely transfer the higher cost of investment in the High-NA EUV machines to its customers.
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hotdayum
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May 3 2024, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 06:19 PM) If the choose to use TSMC more economical solutions. Intel will most likely transfer the higher cost of investment in the High-NA EUV machines to its customers. Intel chip used in which phone?
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upcars
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May 3 2024, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE(hotdayum @ May 3 2024, 06:27 PM) Intel chip used in which phone? https://www.gsmarena.com/flashback_a_look_b...-news-56387.php
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darkterror15
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May 3 2024, 06:30 PM
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chyna also say u dont need high end euv to make chip.
hualawei 7nm same as samseng 4nm sd 888 what?
optimization is the key.
and asml sales drop 40%. kek
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE(hotdayum @ May 3 2024, 06:27 PM) Intel chip used in which phone? We are talking about wafer fabrication outsourcing here.
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hotdayum
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May 3 2024, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE(upcars @ May 3 2024, 06:29 PM) So no more new phones using intel?
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hotdayum
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May 3 2024, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 06:31 PM) We are talking about wafer fabrication outsourcing here. Kenot understand liao
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE(hotdayum @ May 3 2024, 06:31 PM) What you see is the finished chip product. Inside at its core there's a thin slice of metal called a dice which is heart of the processor. A big round wafer can only be manufactured by a few wafer foundry companies for advanced modern processors. Among the competition are TSMC,Intel,Samsung Foundry, SMIC..to name a few. https://www.statista.com/statistics/867223/...y-market-share/https://www.visualcapitalist.com/semiconduc...mpanies-ranked/Qualcomm, AMD, Nvidia are all IP companies each own their own design and patents but subcontract their CPU manufacturing to wafer foundries to manufacture/diffuse them.
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upcars
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May 3 2024, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE(hotdayum @ May 3 2024, 06:31 PM) So no more new phones using intel? WAHAIIII ORANG TUA BLAAAST FROM THE PAST OLDIES IS GOLDIES
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CivicTypeRFk8
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May 3 2024, 07:34 PM
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New Member
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Tsmc yang discover breakthrough…. Wumao peasants here yg excited pulak want to claim credit for shina….
Lmao!
Stupid xixipee peasants really think they own tsmc?
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(CivicTypeRFk8 @ May 3 2024, 07:34 PM) Tsmc yang discover breakthrough…. Wumao peasants here yg excited pulak want to claim credit for shina…. Lmao! Stupid xixipee peasants really think they own tsmc? Those people at TSMC is Chinese or not? Kevin Zhang, Vice President of Business Development at TSMC Zhang family name is not Chinese origin?
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ekoh
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May 3 2024, 08:05 PM
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New Member
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I think China using the same method with DUV to make the 7nm chip
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vapanel
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May 3 2024, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 07:54 PM) Those people at TSMC is Chinese or not? Kevin Zhang, Vice President of Business Development at TSMC Zhang family name is not Chinese origin? Zhang only exist in China and Taiwan Malaysia is Chong
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE(vapanel @ May 3 2024, 08:09 PM) Zhang only exist in China and Taiwan Malaysia is Chong It's also Cheong(Cantonese), Chang and Teoh. That's not the point where the original Zhang family originated from? QUOTE Zhang (张), meaning ‘to stretch a bow’, is the 18th most common surname in China. Many communities worldwide in places like Malaysia, Peru and Macau also share the same surname.
The roots of the Zhang family stretch far and wide. Most Zhang descendants can trace their ancestry back to the bloodlines of Huang Di, or the Yellow Emperor. https://www.mychinaroots.com/blog/surnames/...family-history/This post has been edited by petpenyubobo: May 3 2024, 08:18 PM
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SUSyolldddd
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May 3 2024, 08:20 PM
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Good news for fabless chipmake like qualcomm
But i doubt the cost savin will passdown to consumer
Anyway Looking forward for s8g4 on s25 ultraaaaaa
This post has been edited by yolldddd: May 3 2024, 08:32 PM
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SUSipohps3
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May 3 2024, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE(yolldddd @ May 3 2024, 08:20 PM) Good news for fabless chipmake like qualcomm But i doubt the cost savin will passdown to consumer Anyway Looking forward for s8g4 on s24 ultraaaaaa not s25 🤔
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SUSyolldddd
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May 3 2024, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE(ipohps3 @ May 3 2024, 08:28 PM) Yes i mean s25 ultra i misstype Unfortunately samseng will gib exynoshit to the non ultra s25 s25+ Bcus samseng being samseng want max profit dun want pay more to qualcomm This post has been edited by yolldddd: May 3 2024, 08:33 PM
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JonSpark
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May 3 2024, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 05:51 PM) Suddenly Taiwan and Japan is now grouped along with China.  Taman Japan, China
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vexus
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May 3 2024, 08:35 PM
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Means this tech can use in china TSMC can make $$$ from china
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CivicTypeRFk8
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May 3 2024, 08:40 PM
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New Member
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 07:54 PM) Those people at TSMC is Chinese or not? Kevin Zhang, Vice President of Business Development at TSMC Zhang family name is not Chinese origin? Chinese in tsmc and chinese in mainland shina very2 different Chinese in tsmc, their brain more superior, higher iq, not brainwashed by xixipee propaganda. Thats why tsmc very succesful Chinese in mainland shina are more stupid, brainwashed, with peasant mindset. Everday think of way to scam, steal and copy…. Only know how to copy ppl then shamelessly claim credit for everything. Many times try to undermine tsmc, shameless steal all their engineer, do spying and industrial espionage, but so far, still fail to emulate tsmc ….. LMAO!
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iSean
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May 3 2024, 08:43 PM
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Ahhh.... Will Intel Foundry loose out? I wish not. Otherwise Intel might sinking ship...
So far I know equipment should be selected sites somewhere like Oregon, Poland and Malaysia for its Foundry Service.
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE(CivicTypeRFk8 @ May 3 2024, 08:40 PM) Chinese in tsmc and chinese in mainland shina very2 different Chinese in tsmc, their brain more superior, higher iq, not brainwashed by xixipee propaganda. Thats why tsmc very succesful Chinese in mainland shina are more stupid, brainwashed, with peasant mindset. Everday think of way to scam, steal and copy…. Only know how to copy ppl then shamelessly claim credit for everything. Many times try to undermine tsmc, shameless steal all their engineer, do spying and industrial espionage, but so far, still fail to emulate tsmc ….. LMAO! That is what angmoh try to play conquer and divide games with the Chinese. Whether you're Taiwanese or Chinese across the world, your ancestry is actually traced back from China.
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CivicTypeRFk8
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May 3 2024, 09:04 PM
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New Member
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ May 3 2024, 08:57 PM) That is what angmoh try to play conquer and divide games with the Chinese. Whether you're Taiwanese or Chinese across the world, your ancestry is actually traced back from China. LMAO! shina peasants just cant stop shamelessly claiming everything taiwanese.
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SUSpetpenyubobo
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May 3 2024, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE(CivicTypeRFk8 @ May 3 2024, 09:04 PM) LMAO! shina peasants just cant stop shamelessly claiming everything taiwanese. Says the jealous outsider who wants a share of it too. Too bad even Taiwanese still wants to call themselves "Chinese-Taipei" despite not wanting to have anything to do with China.
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kamfoo
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May 3 2024, 09:30 PM
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Intel has Israel
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phunkydude
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May 3 2024, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE(pandah @ May 3 2024, 06:07 PM) meaning the tech is too new and still not mature? wait for 2nd gen machine later let intel be the tester now? dyor , some ktard pro/anti-ccp or pro/anti-US , campur their own rojak narrative with bias it's actually the opposite albeit intel still lose the bet right from the very beginning despite they've invested big (in fact the biggest investor) on asml euv research. intel stuck onto duv for too long and refused to switchover to euv when asml had their 1st gen euv machines ready in 2017, instead intel letting tsmc/samsung be white mice on transition to euv as early as 2018 as tsmc/samsung happy to get their hands on every single euv machines coming out from asml, all the while intel trying to milk every last drop from their existing duv machines with 14nm+++++ 10nm+++++++++ and only jump onto euv bandwagon last year (that's 6 years late to the game!!!), so of course intel is now going for the newest & latest on this machine upgrade cycle by using asml most advanced high na euv machine to play catch-up ... tak kan you expect intel to upgrade from outdated tech to another last gen punya tech ... ; as for tsmc reasonable for them to delay/skip high na euv for now as they've the edge as market leader so they can focus on increasing capacity to meet demand instead of others playing catch up on tech-wise.
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