Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 Any recommended water heater brand?, mechanical RCD vs electronic RCD

views
     
SUSceo684
post Sep 14 2023, 11:40 AM

Component Burner
********
All Stars
11,667 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Klang/Subang




QUOTE(goolie @ Sep 14 2023, 11:23 AM)
Ok, good. Do you know what is the purpose of 10mA(See this picture)? The seller send it to me and said all Joven model got this. Does it serve same purpose as mechanical RCD?

user posted image
*
QUOTE(lowyat101 @ Sep 14 2023, 11:29 AM)
10mA is required for protection, anything above it will not be sensitive enough to protect the user from electrical leakage. it's also specified in the ST guide
*
Think of it this way
ELCB = only jaga the front gate of a factory.
If things go missing via the back gate nothing happens whistling.gif
it only works if leakage goes through E line
if leak thru human, human is not E line rclxs0.gif


whereas

RCD (fitted inside the DB box)
is like the airport screening machines.. no funny thing can happen.
Attached Image
SUSceo684
post Sep 14 2023, 12:58 PM

Component Burner
********
All Stars
11,667 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Klang/Subang




QUOTE(goolie @ Sep 14 2023, 12:51 PM)
Ok, RCD in DB box is airport screening machine
ELCB jaga front gate of entrance

Then how about mechanical RCD in water heater that we mentioned earlier? Why it has advantage than electronic RCD?
*
Inside WH one, you must triple check and confirmsure that it is actually an RCD and not an ELCB.
Personally I don't trust the WH people to put a good one in.

I have no qualms running old WH (National since 1995), but on the RCD side I retrofitted in the 10mA (for WH) and whole house is using 30mA, can say double safety in the DB box.
Well below the death-point of 50mA.

Mechanical trip characteristics are more reproducible. Electronics fail too laugh.gif

This post has been edited by ceo684: Sep 14 2023, 12:58 PM
SUSceo684
post Sep 14 2023, 02:28 PM

Component Burner
********
All Stars
11,667 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Klang/Subang




QUOTE(lowyat101 @ Sep 14 2023, 02:10 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


I see, didn't check through the ST guide in details so not aware of the 15mA requirement  sweat.gif

But logically, if upstream protection is more sensitive than downstream then it looks like the downstream one will never get to work, unless they are of different mechanism. Maybe someone familiar with this can share some info for our knowledge  thumbup.gif
*
However Pana says they only have ELB not RCD.
https://eng-au.faq.panasonic.com/app/answer...what-is-rcd-%3F

Ultimately I don't trust anything in bathroom wet area, all the humidity etc for my "safety belt".
I will still strongly recommend having a proper RCD (VI type) fitted at DB box

10mA RCD, VI type
[ABB]
https://shopee.com.my/ABB-RCCB-ELCB-F202-AC...113.10546714691

[or the Hager equivalent]
https://shopee.com.my/HAGER-CC225B-25A-2-PO...9918.9413541871?

Schneider one not sure whether it is the VI or VD type. Because the shopee mall one never write the P/N, unable to tell.
VI= Voltage independent Residual current tripping technology

and if no space in DB box, the next best is to have 10mA RCBO fitted.

https://shopee.com.my/-EZ9D16625-Schneider-...4397.8516252845

Because whatever inside the WH clearly did not protect said instances from happening
1. https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2020/08/...e-electrocution

2. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/e...d-wires-2551426

in this case cables are badly burnt
so when you have a voltage-dependent RCD it may fail to operate
however, having any 10mA RCD fitted at DB box is still much better than no 10mA RCD at all.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Sep 14 2023, 02:28 PM
SUSceo684
post Sep 14 2023, 04:08 PM

Component Burner
********
All Stars
11,667 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Klang/Subang




QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 14 2023, 02:52 PM)
The house RCD has higher current trigger level to prevent false trigger due to accumulated leakage current in appliances. TNB guidelines shows 2 RCDs:
1) Up to 100mA trip current for wires to lighting and dedicated power outlets such as for air-cond, water heater, etc.
2) Up to 30mA tripp current for power outlets such as 13A sockets for universal use.

As for the water heater, another 10mA RCD is recommended mandatory to be install for each water heater..

For me either ELCB or RCD, both can be unsafe. Most importantly is to regularly check if they function properly. The ELCB depends on house grounding. Over years the house grounding can fail due to corrosion perhaps. There RCD can also fail to trip due to malfunctioned.

In water heater electrocution, I read that 100% is due to using conductive hose with conductive shower head, which is basically metal. Nowadays all comes with rubber/silicone hose. Many say ELCB not safe but for me, it is still okay. WH body is plastic. Metal part inside the WH which is the  heater itself is grounded. If there is shorted, the ELCB is triggered. The RCD operates in different way to prevent shock which is also no problem. However, normal RCD cannot detect faulty unit. Say the WH runs at 3kW, but when the current goes to 5kW it will not trip RCD because the supply and return currents are still balance  smile.gif . Once the current goes over the MCB, then the MCB in DB box will trip. So, still safe to some extend.

Like I said the most important thing to ensure that those safety device performed normally with regular testing.
*
Fixed. That is based on Msia's ER 1994 regulations which is outdated AF
Attached Image

which the MS1979 COP references as well
Attached Image

meanwhile in SG 2023..
Attached File  Circular_RD_E01_2023_ELISE.pdf ( 247.6k ) Number of downloads: 8


This post has been edited by ceo684: Sep 14 2023, 04:15 PM

 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0157sec    0.57    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 4th December 2025 - 04:06 PM