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Are both of you saying that justification for salvation from hell is by faith+works, as falsely taught by James's "a man is justified by works and not by faith only" + "faith without works is dead", .? ... which is contrary to the true teaching of apostle Paul, Peter, John and Jesus Christ.

No doubt, good works will bring blessings from God, mainly in the form of a good and long life on earth, and vice versa, as per DEUTERONOMY.28, HEBREWS.10:26-31 and ROMANS.2:5-13. As for the afterlife, many Scripture say that justification for salvation from hell is solely by faith in Jesus Christ = His atoning blood shed on the Cross.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 02:54 PM

so you are saying part of bible is fake?

where do you get this idea?

Hebrews 11:1, " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'
Hebrews 11:4, " Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear"

Romans 3:23-25,"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Romans 10:8-10," But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Romans 10:13,"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10:17," So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

The above verses are self explanatory..

My faith is defined as what the bible say. and what I 'hope for' can be represented by Romans 10:8-10, explained in Romans 3.


My job is to share the truth according to the Bible. and stop people from being a stumbling block or worse, giving an impression salvation can be sustained through works (when clearly its nothing we can do but solely by God's grace!)

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If the Bible at GALATIANS.2:9-14 stated that James was the false leader of the false Judaizers who had falsely taught that new Gentile Christians converted by apostle Paul, must keep or work ALL the laws of Moses (eg be circumcised, eat only kosher foods, offer animal sacrifices, etc) in order to be saved from hell, it also means that James was teaching falsehood at JAMES.2, ie wrt justification for salvation from hell.
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It's likely that God included the sole Book by JAMES to teach us to discriminate between true and false teachings. Similarly, we should not follow the false teaching in the Book of JONAH or not be like Cain, Esau, King Saul, Judas Iscariot, etc.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 03:14 PM

well, i would try to understand what is jewish understanding of faith in OT first.

The biblical concept of faith can be seen in its earliest form in the Old Testament where a variety of Hebrew terms provide a rich and complex definition. As a language of action, Hebrew primitive verbs are "root" verbs.

'Ᾱman

As a root verb, a word consisting of three consonants, this term conveys the sense of "reliability, stability" and "firmness." The meaning of the root verb can be modified by changing the vowels or by adding consonants before the root (prefixes), after the root (suffixes) or within the root (infixes).

The form of the root verb indicates: a) the person (first - I, second - you, third - he /she), b) gender (m / f), and c) number (singular / plural).

The stem of the root verb indicates: a) the voice (active, passive, reflexive) and b) the action (simple, intensive, causative).

The conjugation of the verb indicates whether the action was completed, whether it was volitional, whether it functions as a noun or, as a noun, intensifies a verb, or functions as a verbal adjective.

Of the several verbal stems used in Hebrew, two are of interest in the study of faith.

The hiphil stem of 'āman conveys the meaning "to confirm, be certain, sure" or "to be assured" (Gen 15:6; Ex 14:31; Num 14:11; Deut 1:32; 9:23; Ps 78:22; Isa 43:10; Jonah 3:5). When used in the Old Testament, the context indicates that faith has a basis in historical events; faith has an objective basis in fact. "Faith" is not blind belief or a leap into the unknown, but instead founded on a truth certain of a real God and the absolute reality of His words.

Then he believed ('āman-hiphil) in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. (Gen 15:6)

When Israel saw the great power which the LORD had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD, and they believed ('āman-hiphil) in the LORD and in His servant Moses. (Ex 14:31)

The LORD said to Moses, "How long will this people spurn Me? And how long will they not believe ('āman-hiphil) in Me, despite all the signs which I have performed in their midst? (Num 14:11)

But for all this, you did not trust ('āman-hiphil) the LORD your God, (Deut 1:32)

When the LORD sent you from Kadesh-barnea, saying, 'Go up and possess the land which I have given you,' then you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God; you neither believed ('āman-hiphil) Him nor listened to His voice. (Deut 9:23)

Because they did not believe ('āman-hiphil) in God and did not trust in His salvation. (Ps 78:22)

You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe ('āman-hiphil) Me and understand that I am He before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. (Isa 43:10)

Then the people of Nineveh believed ('āman-hiphil) in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. (Jonah 3:5)

The niphal stem conveys the meaning "to be true, reliable or faithful" and can be applied to both God and men (i.e. God: Deut 7:9, Moses: Num 12:7, prophets: 1 Sam 3:20, servants: 1 Sam 22:14, messenger: Prov 25:13). When referring to beings, "faith" acquires a meaning of "to be entrusted with."

Deuteronomy 7:9 (God): Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful ('āman-niphal) God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Numbers 12:7 (Moses): Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful ('āman-niphal) in all My household;

1 Samuel 3:20 (prophet): All Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was confirmed ('āman-niphal) as a prophet of the LORD.

1 Samuel 22:14 (servant): Then Ahimelech answered the king and said, "And who among all your servants is as faithful ('āman-niphal) as David, even the king's son-in-law, who is captain over your guard, and is honored in your house?

Proverbs 25:13 (messenger): Like the cold of snow in the time of harvest is a faithful ('āman-niphal) messenger to those who send him, for he refreshes the soul of his masters.

When referring to objects, the emphasis of 'āman is placed on the word of God for its "dependability" and its confirmation in subsequent action (i.e. 1 Sam 25:28; 2 Sam 7:16; 1 Kings 8:26; 1 Chron 17:23). This usage is based on God's promise of a Davidic dynasty and is referred to "an established house". The fulfillment of God's promise is not based on the quality of the members of the dynasty; instead, it is an unconditional covenant (see the article "Divine Covenants… the King").

Please forgive the transgression of your maidservant; for the LORD will certainly make for my lord an enduring ('āman-niphal) house, because my lord is fighting the battles of the LORD, and evil will not be found in you all your days. (1 Sam 25:28)

Your house and your kingdom shall endure ('āman-niphal) before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever. (2 Sam 7:16)

Now therefore, O God of Israel, let Your word, I pray, be confirmed ('āman-niphal) which You have spoken to Your servant, my father David. (1 Kings 8:26)

Now, O LORD, let the word that You have spoken concerning Your servant and concerning his house be established ('āman-niphal) forever, and do as You have spoken. (1 Chron 17:23)

Over time, a root verb may morphologically change over time and become a source for derivative words. Arising from the root verb ’āman, several derivative nouns provide a nuanced conceptual meaning to "faith."

'ōmen (faithfulness)

The noun is used to describe God's counsel (Isa 25:11).

'ēmūn (faithful, trusting)

When used of nations, it is a standard by which to measure of their righteousness and acceptability to God (Deut 32:20; Isa 26:2).

When used of human beings, it is a model that is contrasted to the bad (Prov 13:17) and the false (Prov 14:5).

'ĕmûnâ (firmness, fidelity, steadiness)

This term basically applies to God Himself (Deut 32:4) to express His total dependability. It is frequently listed among the attributes of God (1 Sam 26:23; Ps 36:5; Ps 40:10; Lam 3:23) and is used to describe His works (Ps 33:4) and His words (Ps 119:86; 143:1).

It is also used to refer to those whose lives God establishes and in whom He expects to see faithfulness from (Prov 12:22; 2 Chron 19:9). Such faithfulness or a life of faith is characteristic of those justified in God's sight (Hab 2:4). God's word of truth establishes man's way of truth or faithfulness (Ps 119:30).

The Believer is entrusted with the duty of being faithful personally and faithfully responsible to carry out his office (1 Chron 9:22; 2 Chron 31:15).

'ĕmet (firmness, truth)

This term carries underlying sense of certainty and dependability, and it is used directly or indirectly of God. It is applied to God as a characteristic of His nature (Gen 24:27; Ex 34:6; Ps 25:5; 31:5), and it is a term applied to God's words (Ps 119:142, 151, 160).

As a characteristic of God revealed to men, it becomes the means by which men know and serve God as their Savior (Josh 24:14; 1 Kings 2:4; Ps 26:3; Ps 86:11), and a characteristic to be found in those who have come to God (Ex 18:21; Neh 7:2; Ps 15:2).

Because it is an attribute of God which is manifest in man's salvation and life of service as God's child, the word is often coupled with another attribute of God related to our salvation: mercy or love (Gen 24:27; Ps 61:7; Prov 14:22).

Because these attributes of God's truth and mercy lead to God's peace toward sinful men, saved by God's grace, the word is also often coupled with peace (Isa 39:8; Jer 33:6).

Hezekiah's Tunnel
Learn about Hezekiah's Tunnel
and the seige of Sennecharib

Bāṭaḥ

Another Hebrew root verb figuring prominently in the concept of "faith," bāṭaḥ means "'to trust, rely upon" or "to put confidence in." With a qal or hiphil verbal stem, bāṭaḥ expresses the sense of well-being and security which results from having a certain trust in something or someone. It is the act of believing in something so strongly that a confidence is generated from that trust; for example, God is the true basis of security (2 Kings 18:30; Jer 39:18; Ps 62:8).

nor let Hezekiah make you trust (bāṭaḥ-hiphal) in the LORD, saying, "The LORD will surely deliver us, and this city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria." (2 Kings 18:30)

For I will certainly rescue you, and you will not fall by the sword; but you will have your own life as booty, because you have trusted (bāṭaḥ-qal) in Me," declares the LORD.' (Jer 39:18)

Trust (bāṭaḥ-qal) in Him at all times, O people;Pour out your heart before Him; God is a refuge for us. Selah. (Psalm 62:8)


In its various contexts, the Old Testament introduces the concept that "faith" is a belief in historical and factual events and leads to the conclusion that all truth comes from God, and is truth because it is related to God. With this objective basis, the concept of "faith" includes a human response that entails the subjective nature of trust. Genuine faith recognizes the historical reality of God and the reliability of His words and engenders a subjective trust within human beings.

By the time Hebrew is translated into Greek, the Hebrew concept of "faith" expands in the New Testament when describing the relationship between God and human beings.

The Hebrew root 'āman is translated in the LXX (Greek Old Testament) uniformly with the Greek term "pisteuō", which means "faith" in English.

While the he Hebrew root "bāṭaḥ" is translated in the LXX with the Greek term "elpidzō," which means "to hope," it is also translated with the Greek term "pepoitha," which means "trust" or "rely upon" in English.

i don't know where you get that idea, but you need help

damn

i don't know where you get that TLDR from, but you need help

damn
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 03:20 PM

this.. we can both agree

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Yes, 'unknown warrior' also agreed with you.
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Thanks for the great insight...

Short answer is YES ! !

You finally got it ! !

The bible is so incongruent & inconsistent, b'cos it was only put together by a bunch of ancient men who lived in tents & rode camels.

NOT divine inspiration.

Tat is why u see so many splinter groups/denominations/factions in kristianiti. The longer the religion continue, the more splitting u see

Dun believe me? Try putting a bunch of kristians in the same church & under 1 preacher.

Sooner or later, they will eventually become dissatisfied & disagree wif the doctrinal interpretations of their fellow brothers & leave for another church!

Tat's why, thr is a never ending debate whtr it's OSAS lar, works lar, cessationist lar, non-cessationist lar, universalism lar, etc.

All nonsense!

It's not you who is wrong! Everybody is actually right! It's the book tat confuses ppl to make wrong conclusions!

Think about it, if god is real, he wouldn't let his people wallow in utter confusion

Kristianiti is dying in the west. Even here, the numbers are not growing organically.

The more popular churches are cannibalizing the smaller churches.


https://www.richardcarrier.info/

https://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024...l#disqus_thread

This post has been edited by Grape Seed X: Jul 30 2024, 03:26 PM

The lack of understanding in Galations 2:9-14 are evident.

In verses 9-10, Paul talks about how James, Peter, and John, recognized the grace given to him and accepted him and Barnabas as coworkers. They encouraged Paul and Barnabas to continue preaching to the Gentiles, while they themselves focused on the Jews.
However, in verses 11-14, Paul recounts an incident in Antioch where Peter stopped eating with Gentile believers after some Jewish Christians arrived, fearing criticism. Paul publicly rebuked Peter, highlighting the hypocrisy of trying to impose Jewish traditions on Gentiles while abandoning those traditions himself.
This passage emphasizes the importance of grace over works and the freedom of Gentiles from the Law of Moses. It also highlights the danger of hypocrisy and the need for consistency in Christian behavior.

You are deriving messages from your OWN understanding..
when the Bible says...
Proverbs 3:5,"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

The fact you claim JAMES was teaching falsehood in the Bible, are you indicating the bible is imperfect?
Im sure you need to reconsider your understanding if that's the right direction.

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Fyi, .......

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=110075618
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 03:31 PM

martin luther isn't prophet,

his word has not weight to me

Read James 2 and it explains how salvation is NOT OF THE LAW.
James 2:10,"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

and then James explain, that works is a results of faith. and without works, it literally means the faith is not real/dead, like the devils.
V14,"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
V17,"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
V18,"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
v19,"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
v20,"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

O Vain man.. someone not saved!

YES! Exactly WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY!
BIBLICAL REFERENCES ! NOT HUMAN COMMENTARIES!

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GALATIANS.2: = 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

ACTS.15:1-2 = 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
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Fyi, James was the bishop of Jerusalem = leader of the Judaizers, a sect of early Jewish Christians. So, at GALATIANS.2:12, Peter was fearing men, ie the Judaizers from Bishop James in Jerusalem. The root cause of Peter's hypocrisy came from James who was likely influenced by Satan with his false teachings = doctrines of demons - 1TIMOTHY.4:1-2.
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Birds of the same feather flock together.

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Without Martin Luther, the father of Protestantism, you and 'zanness' would likely have remained Roman Catholics with the papal decrees/words weighing heavily on you.
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and pope mean nothing to me

hope that clarify