Hao : Amy had passes away just few days before Demon
but then... I agreed that Amy live the longest compared to our hedgie...
but other arguments well... I agree with u, KP n Cim

Oops, I didn't know that.

R.I.P. Amy

no offence to you and demon, i had and still have gliders. and yet so, my glider is unique and special just like amy. i understand everybit of your feelings. i felt it personally when my glider died.

bathing time is bonding time. she gets time outs to roll around the house compound, in my yard, she's not affraid of my cat, in fact i think their friends, and you should see connie sleeping with her on my sofa couch. to me thats bonding but my bad that i dint include the details in my post.
maybe its time that the breeding stops...

understand that when there's demand, there's always supplies to fill those demands...

heard of Pie the glider?

not all T's and reptile keepers are cold and heartless. i assure you that.

when we first got Amy she wasn't really all that tame. I remember her curling around Hun's (Crazymouse) finger. Lol. When I got her she was already at least 1 years old. not a good age to have a hedgie that is not completely tamed.

and seriously, honestly, we do not keep her in the most by-the-book ideal environment. She lives in her toyogo box, with newspaper and her ice cream tub. outside the porch with the dogs. I don't use towels anymore because they are waaay too dirty and Amy's allergic to wood bedding.
We do not inspect her 24/7. She eat good biscuits though and gets the occasional insects.

Although not handled everyday, she actually became tamer. She was the hedgie who wakes up a greets people when she sees them instead of curling into a spiked up ball hissing. She willingly allows kids to handle her. and bathing her means I get to wrap her in a towel and she'd sleep on my chest with me, not going anywhere.

personally, I do think it's true that hedgehogs probably do not need that much handling than what we think is required. I've seen many occasions where frequent handling result in falling or dropping which is a big matter or even stress (we all think spiked up balls are so so cute).

My advise would be just to keep an eye on your hedgies, give them what they need (food, water, silence, darkness) and handle them occasionally. When they're younger, you can handle them more but as they're older, you don't really have to. I've learned from Amy that she never turns wild once she's been tamed.

and bathing is actually an excellent time to bond because after a bath, they're usually more relaxed (more unlikely to curl) and their quills are softer to touch making them easier to handle.

well... After I read what smellyocheese said in her post.. I kinda agree thou..
Because... as now I din really give too much attention to ken.. and I mention before that Ken has became so grumpy and not that tame after I left him for 3 weeks holidays. Everytime I open the door or just to take a peek at him, he will just go to his hide box. Every time he saw me walk towards him, he quickly run to his hide box again -.-"

Because of this, I was thinking that He might want his own time where he plays happily without any supervision or as means dun really like if I always checked on him, so... what I did since that day was, just give him food, water greet him a while then I left him with his own time and space...
Been doing this for almost 5 months till now and today when I wan to give him food, he's not running away from me plus he just stood there look at me and when I put my hand down he will come to my hand... before this.. as i mention.. when he saw me wan to put my hand, he will start to hiss and put on his quill but today.. he did the opposite of it and it really made me happy <3

talking bout this... well.. I guess there are many hedgehog with many and diff soul that leave in there as mean they all have diff attitude. Some hedgehog really likes to be stroke their quills while some just wan their own time... so I guess no one should be blame bout this.. hehe
no offence thou.. as in this thread we all love hedgehog of course we do like them whatever they had did to us..

am I right?

I respect and understand that, just like i am sure you respect and understand that not all people who keep conventionally cute animals are "OMG so CUTE i WANT to SQUEEZE!" airheads.

Its just as well that you gave up on towels, towel fabric is highly unsuitable for hedgehogs. While it does require you to change it every 3 days, cloth bedding is no dirtier that any other form of bedding. It merely does not hide the dirt from your eyes and nose the way other beddings can. When maintained properly it is actually the most hygienic form of bedding.
I am in no way trying to demean your experience and memories but this is actually the standard post bath time ritual for hedgehog owners around the world.
In the hands of someone lacking knowledge injury can happen in so many ways, improper toys, improper housing, improper diet. Education is key to preventing injury.
In fact you will run into problems if you do not familiarize yourself with handling your hedgehog with your bare hands.
Simple things like the trimming of nails or even bathing can become very stressfully for both parties. In fact injury can happen if the owner does not know how to handle a squirming hedgehog. Limiting of handling is no way of guaranteeing safety.

Surely i don't need to go into the ruckus that will occur during the administering of medication.

I also find it contradictory that you express concern of injury from handling accidents yet you appear to not have had any aversion to allowing kids to handle her.


It is wonderful that you both had the luck of having a healthy and friendly hedgehog. Despite the fact that you say she was not kept in 100% optimum conditions i have no doubt in my mind that she was well cared for.
But once again limiting of handling guarantees nothing and is only advisable in certain cases. Many hedgehogs mellow in their old age and welcome physical attention when they might have been less interested to cuddle as babies.
Darkness is important during the night but not providing a 12:12 light and darkness cycle may induce a hibernation attempt.

Hedgehogs do not ball or raise their quills when in water because it is an anti-drown mechanism. The proof? You average hedgehog encountering water for the first time may be obviously panicking and trying to get out, but the quills will remain down.

This does not mean that i disagree with you that bathing is an excellent time for bonding. In fact i couldn't agree more bathing and post bathing cuddling is a wonderful thing.
My meaning was that interaction once every 14 days only is not sufficient in a vast majority of cases to form or maintain a bond.
People have gone on holiday for 10 days and found that they had to start bonding all over again from square 1



Perhaps you have a misconception of what people mean when they say that you should handle your hedgehog regularly. This does not mean to molest and harass a struggling stressed out animal at any time that the whim. strikes you. They are indeed an exotic animal with all the trappings of solitary and territorial behaviour. Forming and maintaining a bond with your hedgehog requires patience and restraint above all things. This is why hedgehogs are not suitable for many people.
Socialize with them for a fixed amount of time, at the same time everyday and you will likely see the results. Some notice that when they do this, often the hedgehog will be awake and waiting for playtime. Hedgehogs are after all, creatures of habit.

Look two pages back, Waranoidz hedgehog Melati literally screamed for his attention when he neglected to let her out for her daily scheduled playtime

I know very well that they are not like dogs and will not give you love, physical affection and trust unconditionally, with them it is something you have to earn every step of the way.
The earning of this love and trust is the most wonderfully rewarding experience a hedgehog owner can have. Advising people that it is not necessary to attempt it is unfair.

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Jun 26 2008, 12:16 AM

Condolence to Cim...

anyway, there you go the lecture from Cim again..

we're just giving our opinions and advices to those who're willing to take them. New owners especially. For one, we would never deny anyone with the hopes of going through what we've gone through with Amy Rose. I think that one of the best experiences in life. Once i was like you, but in another kind of case. I know a friend who produces home-made raw food for dogs and cats. I was horrified at first that its just raw meat. She asked me a question that hit me. Dogs and Cats are carnivours in the wild. Way back before they're domesticated. Why would they lose the ablity to eat raw food?
What i ment to say is that, they're just like that. They're not domesticated. They're solitary in nature, and like humans, the stress factor comes to play. whatever it is your intentions are, which i doubt is ever bad, daily handling makes them stressed out. Which can lead to death as well.

what we're trying to get through here is, its not fair to tell a person they cant keep one. but when they do, do it right. and right does not always means, playing with them everyday, bathing them every 5 days or how many days bla bla bla, keeping them in this linen thing, right could just simply mean, keep then alive and well, and most important of all...happy.

In terms of letting children handle her, which we do loads and loads of time over, you should actually get to understand your lil creature first. we do not let children pet it for fun, hold them for fun, or taking pictures for money, we're just telling them and teaching them the value of all life. I'll ask you this.

When you first brought back Demon, what did your grandmother say? I bet it sounded something like, what did you bring that ugly thingy back home? why dont you just get a dog/cat/chicken/horse?

Education and awareness starts young. To teach a kid something that is contradicting what their parents teach them is a hard task. One day, when you get your own exotic little animals, try talking to a pre-school owner if you could just go in, show and tell about your pets, teach children that hedgies dont shoot quils or snakes are not always dangerous, you will get what i'm trying to convey here. you wanna know why is it do hard to promote responsible pet ownership to malaysians in general? Head down to the SPCA or Pet Epicure in Taman Melawati, or any organizations that does rescue work. So do not ever mock the work and the cause that we're fighting for. Believe me, every precaution had been taken and looked into on the event of a meet and greet session.

I know you mean no harm to us. I'm not flame baiting. Do what you think its best for your animals, stop judging people for how they handle their pets. Hedgehogs or not. Other then that, have a nice day, and i hope you will find your way to another lil hedgie that would make both of you happy for a very very long time. Also a notable trait is that you done your research before having one which is never ever a bad thing.

indeed, understanding your hedgie's behavior is important to find out actually what they like and what they don't like.


Cim: as much as I respect your vast knowledge, keeping animals... well, not everything is entirely by-the-book and matter-o-factly. I may not be right nor am I wrong. I guess I'm pretty instinctive when it comes to my animals. I don't always go by the book. i provide the basics, I take in advice and experiences here and there, and I put my own spin to it. I have had animals defy many logics and warnings given by facts. (it is said that gliders when introduced at a later age may fight to the death while my Pie embraces another friend's younger glider everytime she sees him and grooms him, cuddle together) i learned from them, that animals really aren't all that mechanical. I still believe that in the end, they are individuals.

as for the kids handling, occasional handling with supervision has a lower risk compared to constantly having the hedgie roaming around the bed and "occasionally" falling off it (personal experience of a friend). Lol. hedgies are pretty clumsy critters.

Amy doesn't mind getting her nails trimmed. She just lies flat and sticks her little feet out for us to trim.

12:12 thingy. I keep her in the porch. With the dog. I don't keep her in a cupboard. she wants a shed, she hides in her ice cream tub. really not all that complicated. Lol.

as for demeaning our experience and memories of Amy, you might as well have just done that. You never knew Amy or any other of our animals. Those who knew them, knows how special they are. They surprised others just as they have surprised us. Although there is a reason for every single one of their actions, as you have so kindly clarified, perhaps some things are better off left to the imagination?

these are the conversations that I've been wanting to avoid, which is the reason I've never posted in Pet Wonderland in a very very long time. To us, animals are more than just specimens. We're not scientific people hoping to find reasons for everything. Just as how reading every single parenting book in the world does not justify good parenting. (example)

Well, I'm outta here. Good luck to all hedgie owners. The vibe here is just too much for me to handle, even for just one night. Do whatever that floats your boat. There is no wrong, until something goes wrong. Make good choices.

This post has been edited by smellyocheese: Jun 26 2008, 01:09 AM

I really dont wanna say this Hao, but its ALMOST NEVER because of the quality of the Animal or what mongrel the animal is. Its the keeper. Its never about the percentage, those are numbers that people make up to make them self feel better. Its that simple. No matter how much i smile and how much i tell my self that Amy's live her life to her ripe and old age and happy, i cant stop the nagging feeling that i could have done something about it. Somehow i could have stopped it if only i did something more. Amy's generation and the current generation of hedgies are only 3 apart. What kind of drastic changes could that be that their lifespans are shortened to 1-2years? and quoting the bolded part of your statement, animals in captivitity survives much longer then wild ones, because they're dependant their human caretakers. Take some time to reflect what i've said.

Connie: the vibe is not only too hard for YOU to handle. some other Elites and Mods have begun to avoid this thread as well...

This post has been edited by TAGreptiles: Jun 26 2008, 01:03 AM

Absoloutely, over handling can stress anything out. I do not condone over handling, But i do not agree to discouraging socialization with your hedgehog via regular interaction.

My point exactly, do it right.

I never said it was wrong to let children handle them, read my comment again. I said that is was contradictory to discourage over handling and then condone handling by young children.

Believe me i understand my little creature very well. My own education started very young.
The irony of using a grandmother as example.
I was raised primarily by my maternal grandmother due to the fact that my mother is a single working parent. I no longer live at home, i now live with my boyfriend. Over CNY i brought Demon home for a week to meet my grandmother and my mother. My 85 year old grandmother sat on the floor because she wanted to hold him in her lap. Later she got down on her hands and knees to peek at him playing in a chongkak set that she keeps under a side table. My mother was giggling when he chewed her blouse and anointed. She repeatedly reminded me to keep the family cats far from him as they are preadator animals and he is a pery animal Both of them kept their movements slow and their voices quiet as i had told them much about how sensitive to new environments they can be. When they prepared our reunion dinner they saved some chicken and cod fish to be plain cooked and asked me to feed it to him. I had not requested this of them. He didn't show any interest in it but the thought was appreciated.

I am dreading breaking the news of his passing to them when i see them this weekend. Especially my grandmother, she is a soft hearted lady and has always been very sensitive to the passing of any of our family pets.

What do you think i am doing here in LYN ?
I am not here to spam. I do not spend my time in Kopitiam or in the Garage sales.

To be honest other than making some wonderful friends along the way i do not gain anything for my time spent advising people here.
Sometimes reading the stupid things Malaysian people do to their pets here makes me not want to ever come back. Id benefit more by spending my time in other forums where the care standards are higher and i can learn from the more experienced and knowledgeable.

In my own little way I am here to help educate. If you feel that is not good enough or has no value whatsoever than so be it.

I did not mock you, nor do i have any intention or interest to. I wonder why you make such broad and offensive assumptions about me.
I have just as much right as you do to state my view and opinions. And defend what i believe to be right.
And i do not pull these out of my top hat. i am merely passing along the information i have learn from those more knowledgeable and experienced than me.

No one is judging you for the way you cared for Amy or any of your animals.
You are the one who came here and judged. How about you take your own advise, step off that high horse and not be so quick to judge others?



This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Jun 26 2008, 01:45 AM

FLAME FLAME FLAME AGAIN... This is just too common in LYN. Just stop the flaming la. zzzzzzzzz

Indeed? Well then there really is no need for me to be where i am so unwelcome is there?
Goodbye.

u know what... by caps the repeated the words over n over again...
actually u're the one who bring up the words and makes ppl think we're flaming each other...

both Cim, TAG n smellyocheese just stated out what's on their mind and what had they experienced till now...
I was happily reading it and to be honest although they keep on the argument thing but I never think it's flaming
plus, smellyocheese and TAG are seniors here, Cim also has helped us alot so I never think that they really 'flaming' each other, what I think was they was speak put what's on their mind. and that;s it.

This cold yet cool conversation has been populate by urs 'flaming' words
no offence thou

oh really? then look at cim msg before ur post. then u tell me, wats going on in here then.
reading happily? wow... thats nice of u to be happy bout all this. anyway, i dont bother.
chaoz

geez
chill out guys/girl
lets keep this thread clean for any arguments

chills out
hope all of u have a good nite with ur hedgie

I know what Cim wrote before my post and and I'm 'not' reading happily as what u think.
I just saying that, just read it and then keep the 'angry' feeling to urself.
as actually I keep on reading and i know what's goin on around here so I just replay as I'm taking their words just as 'normal' conversation as means just ignore the parts they were argument-ing and just replay bout talking other.

I just dun wan this thread became so old dead.
plus, both Amy n Demon just passed away few days ago and now here we are. I like to come here because I wan to know what ppl do with their pets and so on. I just wan it to be back as usual and I dun want people come here just to see the argument and then off.

no offence as I didn't mean to say anyone here...
because I know what three of them had done is because based on their experienced and they had it and we dont, so they just wan to said it out only. I'm sure, me myself will somehow speak like them in the future if I had the same experience like them.
If u think that I'm that kind of ppl who dunno anything and just reply u then I got nothing to talk anymore...

Anyhoo, I know that I'm talking too much and I cared too much and I made it became more bad then I'm sorry

cool thread! i love flamings.. wish i could have the time to read what's the argument all about.. and really great if i could join... muahaha!!

haha bonai, me too. i was about to read the few pages before, but once i see the latest page is flame and argument, i got bored and oh wat the heck, just ignore this la. lazy to even bother looking at the previous pages. didnt want to reply also, but after someone has said such things bout wat i said, i got to stand up and say something. well, just hope this cool thread continues to be cool la.

aiyah...i speak my mind. you know me lar jon jon...last time u also flaming kaki werd. thats why i prefer to stay away from pets wonderland. too many smart people here already. wan see flame? i give u flame...hun's gonna delete it anyways...



now back to console couch...hohohoh....

This post has been edited by TAGreptiles: Jun 26 2008, 02:52 AM