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 Water Heater question, Safety installation with RCCB

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SUSceo684
post Oct 16 2022, 04:21 PM

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QUOTE(dest9116 @ Oct 16 2022, 10:30 AM)
Or get a water heater with built in rcd/rccb

And yes those street sifu will tell you too sensitive a bit a bit trip lol

U rather trip or die?
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Only fcking idiots (unqualified electricians) will put an insensitive RCD.
Coz not they die ma "not my house syndrome" rclxms.gif

10mA RCD is "accepted standard" globally.

QUOTE(FusionXY @ Oct 16 2022, 10:46 AM)
Follow what others mention.
I also have the exact same water already more than 20 years.
Already replaced mine with Panasonic last year exactly on today itself.
Buy new one for safety, more than 10 years plus consider good already.
No point to save old appliances like water heater, jug kettle, microwave oven.
Better be safe then sorry. Sometimes the ELCB might fail to detect then electroluted

Ours one dead due to debris stuck inside the water heater as old model does not have filter to prevent debris being stuck.
The water becoming slow and the water flow sensor failed to detect incoming water thus power light not on means no hot water will be out.

I would recommend this model DH-3MS1MW.
If you cannot find this model then get the U Series type but a bit more expensive as it is a new model.

Consider changing instead of repairing. Electrical items cannot last forever, they tend to malfunction over time.
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Yes the Pana DH-3MS1 will be the push start workhorse (M series w/o pump)
Any more u are literally paying for plastic cover changes (black version M, or anything else that cost more).
The Pana water heater design is tried and tested liao. brows.gif

DH-3N (N series) the fancy colouring will wear out and become ugly over the years (think car door handle)

QUOTE(mushigen @ Oct 16 2022, 10:55 AM)
Since it's not functioning normally, just replace it.

I once tried to relocate my 6-year-old heater. The interior circuit board looked "charred" a bit, so I threw it away. Can't imagine the condition of yours which is easily 25 years old.
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I relocated mine from 2000 era into my apartment. But ours in good shape lah.
1. Doesn't matter how old the heater is = having a 10mA RCD is of paramount importance. Too many ppl died in vain coz spent "a lot of money on the heater" YET "RM0 on the life protection" innocent.gif rolleyes.gif .

2. A RM280 heater (DH-3MS1) amortised over 5 years only RM56 a year; but usually they last at least 10 years .. only RM28 a year!

QUOTE(Azzqech @ Oct 16 2022, 03:27 PM)
No point to repair a >10 year old equipment. Get a new water heater and get the installer to put in a 20A 10mA ELCB just before the water heater.
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Yup a new one is safer
RM280 heater (DH-3MS1)
RM160 for ABB/Hager 10mA RCD - barang only provides BEST protection if money not a problem
-- RM100 for Schneider 10mA also can lah IF budget really a problem
-- RM61 for Maxguard 10mA RCBO -- I consider this Maxguard 10mA RCBO at the very bare minimum acceptable equipment. Can't afford this please dont use water heater.
SUSceo684
post Oct 16 2022, 04:39 PM

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QUOTE(Maxieos @ Oct 16 2022, 07:13 AM)
Right now , what I should to do for advice ? Currently , i am sure they doesn't know any good electrician who are expert in water heater except those random letter box name card.
Please help me with advice on which option in increase the safety on water heater ? I read some of the water heater thread but do not understand confused.gif since i am deep understanding in electrical.

Dear Expert ceo684Momo33 , halcyon27 , Selene Yeo , stormer.lyn
Apologize and hope you all can help me on the urgent matter since I stop them from using the water heater for safety purpose.Beside need also find a new water heater.A cheaper one without pump but safety first by adding extra DB.
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Specific to your case, retrofitting will be required.

1. Need to check whether the existing LNE lines from DB box to that point in the shower (currently the round pin socket) is of sufficient wire gauge (2.5mm is bare min). Best advise (to fool proof it for next 30 years - run a new set of LNE cables from DB to the WH point in bathroom in 4.0mm Mega Kabel - its cheap if you do exposed/surface conduit).

1.1 Assuming 2.5mm existing cables, you can only buy the 3kW class heater, do not buy a 4800W one, it will catch fire.
1.2 At the bathroom last mile (where the round pin socket goes currently) - use a proper connector like the Centon water heater connector. Because ST regulation say must be direct connection - not socket. Loose connections cause fires.

2.0 At the DB box - retrofit in a quality 10mA RCD or RCBO, per each water heater. This is your life insurance for water heaters.

3.0 At the DB box - change the mains RCD (the one for whole house) to 30mA. This is 2nd line of defence. In case the 10mA failed to trip - the 30mA will catch it and trip (like a fail safe). If your 10mA failed, and whole house one is 100mA or 300mA which I suspect is the case - there is no backup - GG.com because >50mA leak thru human body, sayonara.

Why so many upgrades?
RCD also wears out after 30 years.. springs get weak etc.. aiya even original 1985 proton saga also need to change many things by now in 2022 lor.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Oct 16 2022, 04:41 PM
SUSceo684
post Oct 16 2022, 04:44 PM

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QUOTE(alexander3133 @ Oct 16 2022, 04:41 PM)
Tell us how the connection will be?
Like which one put in DB and which one should put near water heater, etc...

Asking for myself and on behalf of others.
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All RCDs in DB box. This is supposed to be "professionally installed equipment".
Any registered wireman/wirewoman (at least PW1 or PW3 cert) will be able to do it.
Working in DB box 1001 things can go wrong so please call a proper wireman. Coz its impossible to teach online, this is not the same as plumbing where the worst that can go wrong is you get yourself all wet.

All "user servicable items" like the 20A water heater switch will be right outside the bathroom.
SUSceo684
post Oct 20 2022, 01:25 AM

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QUOTE(mushigen @ Oct 19 2022, 01:16 PM)
Thank you sharing knowledge.

May I know:
1) why ST allows 100mA main RCD (or even 300mA as I saw in some houses) when >50mA leakage is fatal?

2) when RCD ages, as in spring weakens, will it be easier to fail safe (trip off) or it doesn't trip easily? I'm thinking that if it's the former, it's safer albeit mote troublesome.
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1) It is not ST allow, it is because people want cheap and a black market of unlicensed unqualified "faux electricians" who know nuts exist

2) Do the price /30 years its already super cheap lah. Electrical safety kena question like FBI interrogation how to cari makan. It could actually be less sensitive due to metal spring lose tension.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Oct 20 2022, 01:29 AM
SUSceo684
post Oct 20 2022, 01:26 AM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 19 2022, 02:14 PM)
ST recommend  100mA  RCD / for whole house  installed  in the DB box.

some house use 300mA  cos maybe they dont know the standard  or got scam by the electrician .

2/   if the mechanical inside fail  then it will not trip  when you press test button.
if old RCD i would think the leakage current detect limit will be off .
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No, ST is not recommending specifically = 100mA whole house as the only RCD.

Like that, all the 13A SSO is illegal.

Yes I know can install 100mA whole house and another 30mA for 13A SSO.

But when MS1979 COP already mentioned maximum allowed tolerance = a 30mA settle all for whole house and fully compliant

Q: Why waste money with 100mA RCD whole house when it is largely redundant in 2022 scope of work - no more fluorescent lamps; waste DB box space
Or it is a ploy by RCD maker to sell more RCD?

This post has been edited by ceo684: Oct 20 2022, 01:32 AM
SUSceo684
post Oct 20 2022, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 20 2022, 08:09 AM)
yes  , one can try use 30mA  RCCB at the DB box. 
the issue will be  more power trips .  as in Msia  we do have  many lightning storms .  and if you are not home
the food in the fridge will go bad.

the thing about 30mA for 13 A SSO   really  how many house  implement this . even in todays   new houses majority
dont have.
so how did they pass the tnb inspection /CF   and is it really necessary .  i dont really know.
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Actually not a problem.. 30mA built in modern day with anti nuisance trip trips very little

QUOTE(Kytz @ Oct 20 2022, 02:21 PM)
Actually devices that can cause safety hazards like water heaters already come with built in RCD nowadays, so it's not necessary to cascade multiple RCDs (as long as all DB circuits are properly protected already with the correct ratings).
Rather, it's recommended (and also more important) to test the RCD regularly instead to ensure that protection is intact. Some water heaters even allow you to test their RCD.
Because like what ceo684 has mentioned, the RCD will fail someday, and the only way to find out is by testing them.
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Correct. It should be tested as part of every new year/CNY routine maintenance.

QUOTE(culain99 @ Oct 20 2022, 03:56 PM)
might be easier to add single 10ma rcd (with cover) next to heater switch outside bathroom.
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This is a plan B solution, but for ease of troubleshooting it is safer to put everything at the main DB.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Oct 20 2022, 09:37 PM
SUSceo684
post Oct 20 2022, 09:35 PM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 20 2022, 08:09 AM)
yes  , one can try use 30mA  RCCB at the DB box. 
the issue will be  more power trips .  as in Msia  we do have  many lightning storms .  and if you are not home
the food in the fridge will go bad.

the thing about 30mA for 13 A SSO  really  how many house  implement this . even in todays  new houses majority
dont have.
so how did they pass the tnb inspection /CF  and is it really necessary .  i dont really know.
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Not many - its common in retrofitted and new build in SG
But in MY.. new builds got put but mainly China brands to save cost
Rarely you will get Schneider nowadays even for half million dollar place

QUOTE(pmaxv @ Oct 20 2022, 09:45 AM)
Hi ceo. I've got a question on point 3 of yours. How do you add the 10ma RCD under the 30ma/100ma RCD? my electrician told me if I do a hierarchy level that will cause side effects. eg. they trip each other off. so he told me to install flat level instead. eg. the rcds are totally isolated.
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30mA RCD, whole house (sum of all L - sum of all N return = acceptable losses)
Branches out from here to a bunch of little MCBs.
The 10mA is just for WH's own single L and single N. Input=output = acceptable losses and won't trip. IF the WH N is shared that means:
1) Installation is wrong in the first place
2) Useless for purpose of RCD, forever trip.
3) Most likely because it is not a dedicated LNE run from DB box to the WH unit.

Impossible they will trip each other off unless the WH circuit is shared neutral.

QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 20 2022, 10:32 AM)
they  will not trip each other off.

example  if  there is leakage of 20mA  in the WH  ,  only the 10 mA  RCD  will trip.
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Correct.
And if there's a leakage of 20mA in a socket or light outlet unrelated to WH circuit, the 10mA will not trip.

QUOTE(pmaxv @ Oct 20 2022, 01:30 PM)
Hi Kytz, thanks a lot for your reply.

For my RCDs, my electrician just daisy chain them from one RCD input to another RCD input. Ended up quite a long chain cause I've multiple RCDs. Is that dangerous?


user posted image

As for discriminate tripping, I think this one really need proper sifu. I think 99% street sifu don't know this. Mine also don't know.
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No, this is acceptable.

QUOTE(Kytz @ Oct 20 2022, 02:21 PM)
Actually devices that can cause safety hazards like water heaters already come with built in RCD nowadays, so it's not necessary to cascade multiple RCDs (as long as all DB circuits are properly protected already with the correct ratings).
Rather, it's recommended (and also more important) to test the RCD regularly instead to ensure that protection is intact. Some water heaters even allow you to test their RCD.
Because like what ceo684 has mentioned, the RCD will fail someday, and the only way to find out is by testing them.
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Mana ada WH with built-in RCD.
ELCB got lah.

RCD is god tier protection (think of it as modern airbags)
ELCB is antiquated retired era stuff because "what if leakage don't leak nicely through Earth" aka leak elsewhere e.g. humans = don't t

 

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