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 Safe to use 13a plug for water heater?

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Zot
post Aug 25 2022, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(hottemper @ Aug 20 2022, 10:21 AM)
As per title, been using this for more than 10 years in my house, old house layout where the switch for heater is in my room

Recently it burnt, so it concerned me as is it ok to use 13a for this water heater, or it's best to change to the 20a on off switch, or the 15a round plug and socket? Thanks!
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The instant water heater is normally at 3.3kW to 3.6kW power rating. So, current flow would be

3600/250 = 14A (worse case). Even 3300/250 = 13.2 A

The current 13A socket is not suitable. It still works for long time because there is buffer to its rating normally not specified. Therefore it works near its max rating most of the time. The rating is related to contact resistance between socket and plug. So, if the current is high, the heat will also generated thus weaken the copper property over time. The clamping contact worsen over time until the point it get burnt.

The best would be using higher rated socket and the best available is 15A socket. I've been using for more than 15 years with no burning sign and my heater is 3.3kW rated. As for the wire from the socket to the heater, the 2.5mm² is fine. It should be able to carry even 25A (or at worse 20A) at 60ºC ambient temperature, according to calculator I have here. Anyway, it is short cable.

The water heater has internal RCCB or ELCB, but test it regularly to ensure functionality. Adding 10mA RCCB provides redundancy just in case the internal one fail. Well, I don;t have one also blush.gif
Zot
post Aug 25 2022, 11:07 AM

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QUOTE(hottemper @ Aug 25 2022, 10:55 AM)
No wonder i saw a test button and reset button on the side of the heater, that make sense now 🤣
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On 2nd thought, since you have base box where you mounted your current socket, why not just straight away use 20A switch and feed wire directly to the switch. Just need to make hole on the base. This way you have double pole switch as isolation and no pin contact issue over time.
Zot
post Aug 25 2022, 11:51 AM

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QUOTE(davidlow7 @ Aug 25 2022, 11:13 AM)
The water heater built-in ELCB does not to protect human, it is only for the equipment. This had been highlighted numerously by our sifu @ceo684 which is correct so you are left with only the main RCCB to protect you in case of any leakage outside the water heater ..and usually the main RCCB at 100mA would not be able to protect you from death... at 30mA you would stand a chance to survive but not one without severe pain and injuriy to your body.

This is also shared by Showertec
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I understand perfectly how ELCB and RCCB work. Why the big name in water heater manufacturer still use ELCB not RCCB? ST should make it mandatory to use RCCB for water heater, don't they?

How did people get electrocuted in cases of water heater? The casing is plastic and the hose is silicone rubber. Is it because the water heater uses ELCB not RCCB? smile.gif
Zot
post Aug 25 2022, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(davidlow7 @ Aug 25 2022, 12:11 PM)
I can understand the point you are trying to make. especially for a more advanced user like yourself, but in reality things are always never going to be straight forward that's why I would advised against sending a message that the ELCB in each WH unit are safe and designed to protect human like exactly in RCCB. 

Ability to understand the technicality of everything would help yourself in making an informed decision, but when it goes to the MASS then it is about making sure it becomes practical for people to understand in the most simplest manner possible.

You would never know what are inside certain manufacturers' units and the timeline that bought also came with it, and also the customization by users that would happen over time, such as the use of stainless steel rain shower to replace the hose set.  Some people would be using very old units that might have different components in it - the truth is no one can confirms unless a test on each model would be examined - which is of course not possible.

What we know is - For sure following the setup for a dedicated RCCB 10ma would eliminate the uncertainties around.
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The main problem with ELCB is more into the functionality of Ground wiring which maybe overlooked. The L and N wire if no connection the user will know immediately since device will not operate but for E failure no one will notice. This will not trigger ELCB in case the E circuit failed.

The new device that is more advance than the RCCB is GFCI. This will performs what RCCB does and also sense short between N and E. My company is producing this for a Europe customer.
Zot
post Aug 25 2022, 03:11 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Aug 25 2022, 02:35 PM)
RCCB and ELCB cost difference a lot. It may cost more than half to 3/4 of a RM200 water heater.
Since the onus is on the user/installation and not mandated (on the mfg of WH).. don't put in better.
After all most consumer only want cheap like a purchasing dept.
You give them good, not that they appreciate (they think we trying to rip em off); not many consumer will consider the quality of work and what they're missing. Only those in the line will be scared (the thing about people dont know what they dont know)..that's why I run my own home DB setup as stringent as possible. Nothing above 30mA on mains and each WH has a 10mA RCD.
ELCB covers connectivity to ground check.
But ELCB is not a replacement for RCCB.
ELCB if not mistaken is a mandatory item in WH that's why they all come with ELCB LED.
There's also AFCI too biggrin.gif
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Well, many electrical contractors charge too much but using low quality material. Most likely it is because they need to pay workers salary all year round and projects are not continuous all year long. smile.gif For that reason, I also prefer DIY laugh.gif

I'm not sure about the price because I'm not in this business line. However, if you talk about the manufacturing cost, ELCB is more expensive to produce compare to RCCB but the RCCB perform better than ELCB.

I guess the main reason for ELCB in appliances is detect faulty appliances smile.gif
Zot
post Aug 26 2022, 08:26 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Aug 25 2022, 06:24 PM)
Also boils down to where it's made and currency exchange.
ABB/Hager 10mA made in Italy or France easily RM150-160/ea
Cheaper one local made or Schneider around RM100
Cheapest one from PRC around 60 bucks IIRC..
but u wanna save money on the "safety belt" device meh? Especially its "one-off payment life insurance" brows.gif as compared to whatever insurance every year pay a lot.. this one pay once covered for 20-30 years.
I also DIY because in that sense I know everything is fastened properly and according to spec or even some of the time, exceed spec (especially for short runs).. cable so cheap even for 4mm loose cut.. it won't break the bank. Its about not having to deal with melted wires or risk of house catching fire excl.gif
For time saving and avoid breathing in plaster ceiling dust I also retrofit wago connectors for those LED downlights.. fiddling with screw connector is waste of my time when i can just clip unclip.

Hard to find clients that will insist to do it properly up to spec (safety is 1st priority) and don't mind paying (reasonable amounts).
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Products made in Europe (if it really is) are expensive because of manufacturing cost there. Even when there are similar product from China, they would buy Made in Europe. Nowadays due to component shortages, many Western product s are also using components from China. This is very common now. Those US companies producing their products in China is shifting to Malaysia too. Well, labor in China nowadays are comparable to Malaysia, I'd say, but other cost is higher because components are still from somewhere else.

Many Europe companies are assembling their product in Europe but but parts/modules from Malaysia too. Component from China are also used for their low cost. The CE certification is not like UL in the US. It is the manufacturer that declare and responsible to meet the CE requirement. It is not tested by lab in countries that are importing the products or at least CE certified lab.

The branded product is also expensive because the insurance they paid to protect themselves against any possible lawsuits too laugh.gif . Western manufacturing agreement is a stack of papers while China only need 1 piece of paper. This was true story from my American ex-boss. smile.gif My work now is estimating cost to produce a product based on BOM list and drawings provided by possible customers and the selling price difference would surprised most people.

 

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