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 Military Thread V29

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Mai189
post May 5 2023, 12:14 AM

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Radar is more or less confirmed to be the Seafire 500 AESA radar or otherwise known as Europes Aegis Spy radar. This also means that RSN will be operating Aster 30s and the newer Mica vl NG on the MRCVs and upgraded Formidable frigates.

Now, it would be interesting to see if RSN will replace the Herakles radar on the Formidables with the newer Seafire 500 radar as part of the current Formidable mid life upgrade. Herakes Bk 2 is a more cost effective alternative though with longer range than the current Herakles.

Note that the video of the MRCV is an artist impression at this point in time - no doubt close to the actual design.

I look forward to seeing more advanced models of the MRCVs as the design is refined further. Or that we have an actual model to look at.

These 12 surface combatants i.e. the MRCVs and Formidables will be the most powerful surface naval flotilla in ASEAN with significant area air defence, anti surface and anti sub capabilities. And then theres the modular LMVs which can be configured into large corvettes, Invincible and Archer class submarines, future ocean going light frigates or OPVs and future Lhds or JMMS. RSN is largely a green water navy now and honestly, it looks like an upper tier European-NATO navy.

This post has been edited by Mai189: May 5 2023, 11:56 AM
Mai189
post May 5 2023, 12:50 AM

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QUOTE
..with completed design still being worked out..


It isn't the final design. But I guess RSN wants to give a flavour of the MRCV for now. Pretty damn good ship at that.
Mai189
post May 5 2023, 02:50 PM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ May 4 2023, 11:37 PM)


Naval news insists that full load displacement is 10000 tons from its sources in SAAB i.e. with it's complement of helicopter, USVs, UUVS, UAVs, mission modules, etc. Whether or not RSN eventually makes reference to that or a lower tonnage figure is their prerogative. RSN seems uncomfortable to give a definitive figure but did say that it won't be bigger than the Endurance class lpd which is about 8500 to 9000 tons at full load.

Regardless, it is clear that the ship is way bigger than the Formidables and certainly more formidable. The current Iver stands at 6000+ to 7000 tons

It won't be the Vanguard 130/140 as confirmed by ST Engineering in the video which is >5000 ton ship. I always thought this design is too tight.

Do a side by side comparison with the Iver and you'd realise that the ship seems longer than the baseline Iver.

Parts to note:

1) Front of the ship has been extended/enlarged to accommodate the Slyver VLS launchers - shows 32 VLS but the space can accommodate around 48 launchers. The baseline Iver has space only for up to a 76mm gun - and space is tight.

2) Centre mission bay seems extended/enlarged and can accommodate more VLS launchers - at least 32 to 48 more VLS launchers.  Plus not 24 SSMs (likely more advanced variant of Blue Spear anti ship/land attack missiles) - I suspect at least 32 SSMs. Note: Formidable class centre mission bay can accommodate 24 SSMs.

3) helicopter deck is certainly extended/enlarged to accommodate the launching of helicopters and Uavs and USVs in the lower deck. The baseline Iver has a shorter helicopter deck.
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The graphics of the MRCV isnt really created to scale but we can do a visual comparison of the parts of the ship I mentioned above vis a vis the original or baseline Iver:

Front of bridge weapon platform - note the 4 A50/70 Slyver launchers (or 8 x 4 or 32 VLS cells). There is space for 2 more A50/70 Slyver launchers. I am anticipating around 32 Aster 30 Blk 1 nt and 16 vl Mica Ng (note micas don't need Slyver launchers but comes in individual canisters so they can be easily installed around the Slyver launchers):

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Centre mission bay:

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Heli Deck - also see the size of the hangar door (p.s: there is a ec725 parked inside the MRCV)

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This post has been edited by Mai189: May 5 2023, 03:16 PM
Mai189
post May 5 2023, 04:28 PM

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More details of the MRCV - good article:

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/singapore-provid...e-combat-vessel

Plus the near certain configuration of the Aster 30 Blk 1 NT/Vl Mica Ng missile configuration which are already integrated with the Seafire radar:

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As shared, the MRCV's front weapon or mission platform (front of bridge,) can accommodate at least 32 Aster 30s Blk 1 NT and 16 VL Mica Ng missiles.

Aster 30 BLk 1 NT has >150 km range for medium to long range area air defence. Meanwhile, VL MIca NG is a shorad with max range of 40km.

^ Note: I am expecting the mid life upgraded Formidables to carry the same anti air missile load. Yes, there is space front of the Formidables bridge. Question is whether RSN will use Seafire on the upgraded Formidables or upgrade the current Herakles PESA radar. The upgraded version of the Herakles has range in excess of 300km and has been installed on the French Freda AAW destroyers/frigates.

Formidable class front weapon/missile platform;

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Note: the 4 Slyver launcher modules are spaced out and they can be packed closer together for the integration of 16 Mica vl NG individual VLS cannisters behind the Slyver launchers. Whoever designed the Formidables should be given awards for their ingenuity.

This post has been edited by Mai189: May 5 2023, 04:53 PM
Mai189
post May 5 2023, 07:21 PM

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QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 5 2023, 06:51 PM)
Nope
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They can..

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Mai189
post May 5 2023, 08:40 PM

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QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 5 2023, 07:40 PM)
the highlighted section here is less than half a meter
you squeeze how also you won't squeeze another A-50 set in there

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Whoever said anything about a 3rd row of A50 slyver launchers? /facepalm

You dont buy sylver to fit in vl mica or vl mica ng. Move the current two rows of Slyver closer similar to how they are installed on the horizon class or charles de gualle - see my previous post. Add in the individual vl mica launch cannisters behind.

Micas are compact missiles (more compact then Asters) and fitted in compact invidual launch cannisters.

user posted image

This post has been edited by Mai189: May 5 2023, 09:03 PM
Mai189
post May 5 2023, 08:43 PM

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Gabriel 5/Sea Serpent/Blue Spear..

Active Aesa radar guided with range of up to 400+ km depending on flight profile.

The often quoted max range of 290km (without booster launch rocket) is its low-low or sea skimming profile:

QUOTE
The Sea Serpent is designed to give a good stand off range. In its flight profile, it can achieve greater than 290 km in a low profile mode. It has an extensive capability against peer plus threats. But I can’t give details about its terminal phase on this unclassified forum. I can say that it is hugely exciting and the Royal Navy will be pleasantly surprised with the capabilities that we are offering


https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/dsei-2...i-ship-missile/

No prizes as to what surface to surface/anti-ship missile the MRCV will carry.

The LMV also has a yet to be seen anti-ship/anti-surface missile module. I suspect the Blue Spear will come in the form of mission containers installed just of the rear of the bridge superstructure. Is the Blue Spear designed to be launched from such mission containers? Yes.

This post has been edited by Mai189: May 5 2023, 08:57 PM
Mai189
post May 6 2023, 10:24 AM

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QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 6 2023, 03:33 AM)
Beautiful picture of French Horizon class frigate

user posted image
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Indeed it is. One of the photos above which I posted is from the Horizon class. As you can see, the gap between the rows of Slyver launchers are even tighter - tighter than the Formidable.

I think your point is that I am suggesting for an integrated module akin to the US MK 41 system.

Not at all.

I am saying that as the two rows on the Formidable can be eve tighter or closer together - see the photos of the horizon and Charles dw Gaulle I've shared. You can install two rows of micas at the space behind.

This post has been edited by Mai189: May 6 2023, 10:41 AM
Mai189
post May 6 2023, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 5 2023, 10:21 PM)
tight squeeze if at all possible - I'm still not sure
the MICA VL installation is not extremely compact
just one cell you see here measures approximately 36cm x 54cm minimum
as I showed you, the bit of gap between the two existing A-50 launchers is less than half a metre
and you can't take ALL of that space, there will always be a few cm here and there

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Well the entire ship is unbelievably tight/compact but packed with weapons in the first place. It has more/better weapons than some destroyers or larger frigates.

The Micas are in self sustaining containerized launchers. They missile and individual launchers are smaller than the slyver and the asters for sure.

They managed to fit in 12 launchers on a smaller space on each lmv:

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This post has been edited by Mai189: May 6 2023, 10:40 AM
Mai189
post May 6 2023, 10:50 AM

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user posted image

By the way, I do not think anyone has noticed this yet.

This is the new combined launch platform for vl Mica Ng and aster 30 missiles.

It is designed to be compact and allows for the flexible arrangement of the slyver and mica launchers in a compact space to maximize the missile loadout. This makes the combine system more competitive to rival systems with quad packed missiles such as camms or essms.



This post has been edited by Mai189: May 6 2023, 10:54 AM
Mai189
post May 6 2023, 11:35 AM

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More info on the new compact combined launcher above (note how the Slyver module is flushed with the deck now):


https://www.armadainternational.com/2022/10...g-control-unit/
Mai189
post May 6 2023, 12:33 PM

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One of the more unique features of the Blue Spear is its CWIS-fire resistant hardened casing. In case of CWIS fire, it is expected to continue on its path before slamming into its target.

Open source shows a modular design I.e. it can take different sensors, warhead type/size, engines, etc. Israel claims it is truly revolutionary. I note some designs show sensor arrays on the sides of the missile, possibly AESAs. As Sg and Israel are building it domestically, we will never truly know what Sg puts in it beyond genetic specifications or whether it differs from the same missile sold to customers. Maybe that's one of the intents at the outset as opposed to buying something off the shelf and configuration-fixed i.e. total control over what they put in that missile.

It is currently one of the biggest Western anti ship missile available so there is certainly prospect for future growth.

Earlier iteration of the Blue Spear/Gabriel 5/Sea Serpent



This post has been edited by Mai189: May 6 2023, 12:54 PM
Mai189
post May 6 2023, 01:06 PM

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Iron beam being marketed to Singapore at Imdex 2023. Both land and naval.

This is a CWIS system. It is an alternative to gun based systems. Theoretically it is one of few systems that can shoot down hypersonic missiles let alone supersonic or subsonic missiles.

The land version is for customers with....Iron Dome C-RAM system. It is integrated with iron dome on a systems-level and is expected to manage leakers.. Iron Dome has an efficiency of about >97% hit capability. Iron beam can tackle the rest.

By the way, the Spyder SAM also functions as a C RAM system.

Overlapping layers of counter fires...
Mai189
post May 6 2023, 02:37 PM

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QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 6 2023, 01:20 PM)
Blue Spear is about the size of Harpoon and carries a similar warhead

Tomahawk Block Vb is the most capable NATO ship-launched antiship missile in service
As I said, at least 36 x 54cm, and that won't fit into what's left of deck space even if you budge the existing silos a little
The gap is deceptively small because of the size of the ship
If you compare with the people on deck, there's still at least a foot if not more of space between

My point is simply that even the standalone cell is not small enough to do what you propose
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Wrong. The blue spear is a larger missile at 5+ metres long. Harpoon is at about 4+ metres length.. Why are you even talking about a very very long range land attack missile that cannot be carried by the majority of the world's navies. Yes, it has recently been retrofitted to strike ships but it was not designed to do anti ship attack at the beginning or that was not the intent.

Do your home work.

Blue Spear: 5.3+ metres, weight: 760kg

QUOTE
Not including the booster, the 760-kg (1,675-lb.) missile is 5.34 m (17.5 ft.) long, and possesses a 150-kg high explosive insensitive munitions warhead. The missile is propelled by an air-breathing turbojet engine fed with liquid jet fuel, enabling a 290-km (180-mi.) range at subsonic speeds.


https://aviationweek.com/shownews/singapore...m%20(180%2Dmi.)

Harpoon missile: 4.6 metres, 680+ kg.

(Note: The latest harpoon carries an even smaller warhead of about 130kg and weighs lesser. Advances in munitions allows the overall weight to be lesser but the magnitude of the blast impact can be about the same. E.g. A newer generation 115kg warhead can have the same blast impact of a previous generations 220kg warhead.)

https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/harpoon/

On fitting in individual Mica launchers - Wrong again. I've pointed to you and as you have so generously shared via the photo of the horizon class that the slyver modules can be packed closer together. That leaves room behind for individual Mica launchers. More than enough space. Further, I've shown how 12 or more vls Mica launchers can be fitted into the tight space in front of the lmvs bridge.

Further, the newer MMFU by MBDA confers even greater flexibility in terms of deploying these launchers in compact settings.

If you want to continue to live in your lala land - by all means.

This post has been edited by Mai189: May 6 2023, 05:20 PM
Mai189
post Jun 26 2023, 01:05 PM

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I saw their rehearsal only recently:






RSAF showing the F16Vs. Come 2026, they can also show f35s.

First time I saw the derby Er on spyders. Fyi, both RSAFs Aster 30s and Spyder are Anti Ballistic missile capable. Spyder has a dual CRAM capability.

Notice the leo2Sg is now rated as a 70 tonner.

And the Hunter is now rated as a 35 tonner. The medium tank version will probably hit 40+ tons.


Mai189
post Jun 26 2023, 02:23 PM

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I derby er - open source puts range at between 100km to 140km.( Surface launched - 41km)

Sky spear 6th gen missile - longer range than I derby. May exceed even amraam120Ds.

Form factor is smaller than I derby.

Obviously meant for the F35s weapons bay i.e. Israels f35i or current I derby users. Other aircrafts can carry it too.

I derby is both short range and medium to long range missile at the same time. Need more details on Sky Spear.

https://fragoutmag.com/rafael-has-unveiled-...to-air-missile/

This post has been edited by Mai189: Jun 26 2023, 02:27 PM
Mai189
post Jun 26 2023, 03:40 PM

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According to open source or SAF, its new artillery piece will be introduced end this year or next. It will replace both the Primus sph and the fh2000 155/52 field howitzers. Looks like Sgs artillery will consist of the 120mm SRAMS mortar systems, himars and the new Sigma (?) artillery.




https://defbrief.com/2023/05/17/rheinmetall...howitzer-trial/

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarf...ntract-from-an/

Note; Sigma is using the l52 a1 barrel which gives added range - as much as up to 60km or more depending on the artillery round.

In future, the l52 barrel can be upgraded to the l60 barrel with range in excess of 80km. It can compete with mlrs in terms of range.

Edit: Sg also has the Pegasus 155mm/39 cal light field howitzers. So the stable of artillery precision fires will be the 120mm SRAMs, Pegasus 155mm/39cal field howitzers, Sigma 155mm/52cal SPHs and Himars.

Sgs Pegasus 155mm/39cal light field howitzer:

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This post has been edited by Mai189: Jun 27 2023, 09:14 AM
Mai189
post Jun 26 2023, 04:22 PM

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Sgs latest SRAMs mk2:

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https://militaryleak.com/2021/07/08/singapo...-variant/?amp=1

Rapid firing with high accuracy and range of about 10km. (Note: latest 120mm rounds go as far as 12km to 15km e.g. iron sting or pgmm).

This post has been edited by Mai189: Jun 26 2023, 04:29 PM
Mai189
post Jun 27 2023, 09:17 AM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ Oct 25 2022, 02:54 PM)
Recently, a Singapore Himars (ID: 21641MID) was featured in a Lockheed Martin Video on the Precision Strike Missile (PRsM). The PRsM is slated to replace and has the same impact as the 300km MGM-140 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS). A single Himars can carry 2 PRsM as compared to one ATACMs. This is a heavy missile comparable to the Russian Iskandar Complex missile. The PRSM has a range in excess of 650km: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/0...rmation-update/



Go here for full screen video: https://www.facebook.com/militaryleak/video...38374563618941/

Still shot:

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The Sg Himars in question:

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It is not known why a Singapore Himars is doing in the video. However, the vehicle ID was apparently redacted/blurred after this was discovered. See same revised video:



Maybe it is a just a typo error. Let us just forget about this ok. Nothing to see here; move along people.
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https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/army-ta...beyond-1000-km/

PRsM comes under the category of Short Range Artillery Ballistic Missile. (Note: short range in ballistic missile lingo as being less than 500km I think though I note PRsM can go as far as 600+km and possibly 1000+km in future).

This post has been edited by Mai189: Jun 27 2023, 09:21 AM
Mai189
post Jun 27 2023, 09:23 AM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ Oct 23 2022, 09:54 PM)
Fyi, the basic GMRLS guided rockets have a range of >70km.

The basic guided rocket has been successfully tested to range of 92km: https://www.army-technology.com/news/news69339-html/

However, the US army was able to use it and surgically strike targets with precision at around >105km in Afghanistan.

This means that is its actual range is more >100km.

In Ukraine, it has been routinely used to strike targets at more than >100km.



P.S: Russian defence manufacturers tend to overstate capabilities. Western defence manufacturers do the opposite.

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In SEA and Oceania, Himars has been bought by Singapore and recently Australia.

Info from open source is limited. As shared previously, Singapore has bought more than >108 launch pods. This was declassified by Lockheed Martin (until 2016 only). This would mean that Singapore has at least 54 Himars launchers (until 2016). One launcher + one supply vehicle generally (although the US army may use 2 supply vehicles per launcher.).

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Link for above: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1019443.pdf

I dont have numbers post 2016.

I note that newly built GMRLS rockets are largely the ER versions with range in excess of >150km. These were purchased by Australia recently. If Sg bought new GMLRS rockets recently, it is likely these will be the newer ER versions.

Australian Himars:
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/special-re...061331d10fd4799
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Also note that US and generally Western weapon makers tend to under declare range and utility as opposed to perhaps the Russians. See above^

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