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> Science as the only basis of truth is flawed

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seraph00
post May 17 2022, 12:43 PM

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QUOTE(chatter77 @ May 13 2022, 04:02 PM)
I'd rather rely on scholars' expertise for this.
No.
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QUOTE(ramz @ May 17 2022, 12:19 PM)
Is not important to him, so he won't answer. He said it himself, truth is not important
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also the same kind, wont answer when asked a direct question and ambiguously taichi to his scholar

how does a religious scholar go about commenting on mathematics?
chatter77
post May 20 2022, 10:42 PM

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QUOTE(seraph00 @ May 17 2022, 12:43 PM)
also the same kind, wont answer when asked a direct question and ambiguously taichi to his scholar

how does a religious scholar go about commenting on mathematics?
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Of course I need to rely on scholars because proving Srinivasa Ramanujan's work isn't my expertise.
That's what we call being honest. Do you have problem with being honest?

seraph00
post May 23 2022, 12:38 PM

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QUOTE(chatter77 @ May 20 2022, 10:42 PM)
Of course I need to rely on scholars because proving Srinivasa Ramanujan's work isn't my expertise.
That's what we call being honest. Do you have problem with being honest?
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conveniently honest.
ramz
post May 23 2022, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(chatter77 @ May 20 2022, 10:42 PM)
Of course I need to rely on scholars because proving Srinivasa Ramanujan's work isn't my expertise.
That's what we call being honest. Do you have problem with being honest?
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No u don't. In the other thread u dismissed your scholar Al-Tabari. You rely on scholars only when they aligned with your opinions.
Spear2
post May 24 2022, 10:40 AM

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QUOTE(seraph00 @ May 17 2022, 12:01 PM)
do you think the al Quran is real? Do you believe in Islam?
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He sets up his own fantasized strawman, then proceeds to demolish the strawman. In between he will add words like troll, evil, karma, etc ... In a nutshell he is basically arguing with himself and ignore or twist whatever you say to him. So take him as a filler trolling the forum.
chatter77
post May 25 2022, 06:50 PM

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QUOTE(ramz @ May 23 2022, 01:40 PM)
No u don't. In the other thread u dismissed your scholar Al-Tabari. You rely on scholars only when they aligned with your opinions.
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Apparently you don't bother to read carefully what I posted. Again:

https://friendlyexmuslim.com/does-the-sun-s...a-muddy-spring/
If we read the comment from Ahmed:
QUOTE
Problem 1: You present the companions’ opinions on a verse whose wording and subject are broad as if they are firmly set and convinced. This is misleading to your readers. For example, in Tabari’s tafseer of this verse, he clearly mentions one narration where Ka3b ala7bar was asked, and he replied, “You know the Qur’an better than me, but I find it …(the same verb that you are taking too literally by the way) … in the Book to set in black mud.” This is hardly the view of someone who is absolutely convinced, and the fact that they are asking one another clearly indicates that they are not on anything that they clearly received from the Prophet (saas).

Problem 2: The preoccupation with the literal meaning of wajada is unnecessary. I am a native English speaker who has studied classic Arabic for many years, and who finally took a Bachelor’s in Islamic Law in Saudi Arabia. The verb you are mentioning has many shades of meaning, just like “find” in English. It is truly that simple. The Companions leaned toward a literal translation because they had no knowledge to pull their interpretation towards another meaning. This is CLASSIC and their well-known approach: be conservative in understanding the verse UNLESS there is something to pull the meaning to a more secondary and more accurate meaning. Therefore the phrase “I find” on its surface would usually mean “I discovered a physical phenomenon occurring”, but when one says “I find the sun setting in a river”, it is quite natural to understand it as meaning the sun appeared to set there. The Companion’s failure to give that as their primary explanation is no fault of their own: the verse’s subject is broad and far removed from them. They did their best, and it should not shake your faith or anyone else’s faith. The Qur’an warns about this: there are verses whose interpretation can be twisted, and there are verses that are harder to twist, especially the important ones on creed and law. We accept all of them (as Muslims).

Problem 3: To say that Zakir Naik’s Arabic skills are erroneously better than classic scholars is also misleading: of course his Arabic is not as good. However, any student of Arabic, let alone a scholar, will quickly understand how the Arab companions of the Prophet (saas) approached this verse: take the meaning of the verb literally, and carefully indicate that this verse is not something they can point to authentic inspiration about for its meaning. They basically leave the door open to another interpretation. That is perfectly fine. For us, hundreds of years later, we have more information to open that door wide for another interpretation which still falls within the scope of the Arabic language of that verse, and which does not contradict any creed or law or other established precept in Islam.

Problem 4: You fail to mention that of the 16 (not 15 as you said) narrations associated with this verse, more than one is weak. My copy of Tabari’s tafseer clearly includes the evaluations of all narrations. In particular the narration that indicates that the Prophet mentioned a literal descent of the sun into a river is weak, and the weak narrators are pointed out based on established narrator histories. Even if you want to disagree with that, it is misleading not to mention that in your post.
Many people who do not study Arabic hate to hear this… but you need to improve your Arabic.
ramz
post Yesterday, 06:58 AM

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QUOTE(chatter77 @ May 25 2022, 06:50 PM)
Apparently you don't bother to read carefully what I posted. Again:

https://friendlyexmuslim.com/does-the-sun-s...a-muddy-spring/
If we read the comment from Ahmed:
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After reading tafsir of al tabari, I only see him agreeing that the sun set in muddy spring as per the Quran. Ahmed doesn't convince the reader otherwise. But who cares what he thinks. He is not the scholar.
chatter77
post Yesterday, 07:45 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ May 26 2022, 06:58 AM)
After reading tafsir of al tabari, I only see him agreeing that the sun set in muddy spring as per the Quran. Ahmed doesn't convince the reader otherwise. But who cares what he thinks. He is not the scholar.
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Well, unfortunately you got two issues here:

1) Intellectual dishonesty. Conveniently, you are okay now to use scholars interpretation.

2) Apparently you don't read the tafsir properly. Let us look at your link again:
https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/05...-in-the-spring/
QUOTE
This article acts as sort of a part 2 to my article that translates the tafsir (Quran commentary) of Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari into english which shows that he and the early Muslims likely believed that the sun literally sets into a muddy or warm spring as per Quran 18:86:
If you click on the cited link:

https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/03...bari-for-q1886/
Tafsir Al-Tabari for Q18:86
QUOTE
Al-Husayn b. Al-Junayd <– Sayd b. Salamah <– Ismail b. Aliyah <– Uthman b. Hadir: I heard Abdullah b. Abbas saying: Muawiyah recited this verse, and he said {warm  spring} and Ibn Abbas said: it is {muddy spring}. He said: So they sent to Ka’b Al-Ahbar and asked him. Ka’b said: As for the sun, it disappears in ‘Thatin’. which matched what Ibn Abbas said, and the word tha’at means “mud”
Yunus <– Ibn Wahb <– Nafi’ b. Abu Na’im <– Abd Al-Rahim Al’Araj: Ibn Abbas used to speak about the muddy spring and would pronounce the word as {in a muddy spring} then he explained it as black mud. Nafi’ said that Kab was asked about it and he said: “You are more knowledgeable in Quran than I am, but I find it in the Book disappearing in black mud.
- Remember, above is from your cited link. Kab was being honest about his knowledge with regards to Al-Quran. This is hardly the view of someone who is absolutely convinced, and the fact that they are asking one another clearly indicates that they are not on anything that they clearly received from the Prophet pbuh. (reference: https://friendlyexmuslim.com/does-the-sun-s...-muddy-spring/)

- The verse was explaining how the sunset occurred from Zulqarnain perspective. But you misconstrued it (your own interpretation), and say God didn't know & God said sun set in muddy Spring. A clear intellectual dishonest of you here.

This post has been edited by chatter77: Yesterday, 07:46 AM
ramz
post Yesterday, 08:00 AM

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QUOTE(chatter77 @ May 26 2022, 07:45 AM)
Well, unfortunately you got two issues here:

1) Intellectual dishonesty. Conveniently, you are okay now to use scholars interpretation.

2) Apparently you don't read the tafsir properly. Let us look at your link again:
https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/05...-in-the-spring/

If you click on the cited link:

https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/03...bari-for-q1886/
Tafsir Al-Tabari for Q18:86

- Remember, above is from your cited link. Kab was being honest about his knowledge with regards to Al-Quran. This is hardly the view of someone who is absolutely convinced, and the fact that they are asking one another clearly indicates that they are not on anything that they clearly received from the Prophet pbuh. (reference: https://friendlyexmuslim.com/does-the-sun-s...-muddy-spring/)

- The verse was explaining how the sunset occurred from Zulqarnain perspective. But you misconstrued it (your own interpretation), and say God didn't know & God said sun set in muddy Spring. A clear intellectual dishonest of you here.
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1) I'm intellectually honest. You aren't. I'm giving u supporting evidence the Quran really meant sun set in muddy Spring.

2) "Kab was asked about it and he said: “You are more knowledgeable in Quran than I am, but I find it in the Book disappearing in black mud.”". What you understand about this? Is Kab convinced that sun sets in muddy spring? Yes.
chatter77
post Yesterday, 08:35 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ May 26 2022, 08:00 AM)
1) I'm intellectually honest. You aren't. I'm giving u supporting evidence the Quran really meant sun set in muddy Spring.
C'mon friend, you are being dishonest here. You used scholars interpretation.

QUOTE
2) "Kab was asked about it and he said: “You are more knowledgeable in Quran than I am, but I find it in the Book disappearing in black mud.”". What you understand about this? Is Kab convinced that sun sets in muddy spring? Yes.
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Incorrect. Again, go back and read carefully.

https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/03...bari-for-q1886/
QUOTE
And in my (Tabaris) mind the correct opinion is to say that they are both popular readings in the land, and each one has a correctness about it and an understandable meaning, and neither contradicts the other, for it is possible that the sun sets in a hot spring that has mud and sludge, so a reader who uses “hot spring” is describing its temperature, and the reader who uses “muddy spring” is describing that it has mud and sludge. Both versions have been narrated to us.
Al-Tabari was addressing the "hami-atin" word from the verse; either "hot spring" or "muddy spring"
https://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp...tion=(18:86:10)

There is no mention of literal sunset in either hot spring/muddy spring by Al-Tabari.


This post has been edited by chatter77: Yesterday, 08:36 AM
ramz
post Yesterday, 08:48 AM

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QUOTE(chatter77 @ May 26 2022, 08:35 AM)
C'mon friend, you are being dishonest here. You used scholars interpretation.
Incorrect. Again, go back and read carefully.

https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/03...bari-for-q1886/

Al-Tabari was addressing the "hami-atin" word from the verse; either "hot spring" or "muddy spring"
https://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp...tion=(18:86:10)

There is no mention of literal sunset in either hot spring/muddy spring by Al-Tabari.
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I used scholars as supporting evidence. Supporting, my friend. The literal words of Allah is understood even by scholars.

You don't see coz u blinded by Islam. The whole tafsir is talking about literal sun setting in the hot or muddy spring, and u dare say no mention? What's the matter with u? I think we reach the end of our argument. Everybody reading this can make conclusion. Good luck trying to convince non muslims to Islam. With this type of discripancies, your best approach is too hide this verse.

chatter77
post Yesterday, 08:54 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ May 26 2022, 08:48 AM)
I used scholars as supporting evidence. Supporting, my friend. The literal words of Allah is understood even by scholars.

You don't see coz u blinded by Islam. The whole tafsir is talking about literal sun setting in the hot or muddy spring, and u dare say no mention? What's the matter with u? I think we reach the end of our argument. Everybody reading this can make conclusion. Good luck trying to convince non muslims to Islam. With this type of discripancies, your best approach is too hide this verse.
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You are the one who is blinded by your stubbornness.

I only quoted the translation given by the website you cited on Al-Tabari own words. His own words; got nothing to do with being blinded by Islam. Again:
https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/03...bari-for-q1886/
QUOTE
And in my (Tabaris) mind the correct opinion is to say that they are both popular readings in the land, and each one has a correctness about it and an understandable meaning, and neither contradicts the other, for it is possible that the sun sets in a hot spring that has mud and sludge, so a reader who uses “hot spring” is describing its temperature, and the reader who uses “muddy spring” is describing that it has mud and sludge. Both versions have been narrated to us.
Al-Tabari was addressing the "hami-atin" word from the verse; either "hot spring" or "muddy spring"
https://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp...tion=(18:86:10)

What happen to your read only, don't interpret?

This post has been edited by chatter77: Yesterday, 08:55 AM
ramz
post Yesterday, 09:10 AM

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QUOTE(chatter77 @ May 26 2022, 08:54 AM)
You are the one who is blinded by your stubbornness.

I only quoted the translation given by the website you cited on Al-Tabari own words. His own words; got nothing to do with being blinded by Islam. Again:
https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/03...bari-for-q1886/

Al-Tabari was addressing the "hami-atin" word from the verse; either "hot spring" or "muddy spring"
https://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp...tion=(18:86:10)

What happen to your read only, don't interpret?
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Al tabari tafsir is discussing between hot and muddy spring. It is not discussing about literal sunset in muddy spring, or not literal sun set in muddy spring. He already is convince the literal sun set in muddy spring. Kapish?

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