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 FI/RE - Financial Independence / Retire Early

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Wedchar2912
post Oct 10 2021, 11:30 PM

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QUOTE(sagethesausage @ Oct 10 2021, 04:15 PM)
Is 1 million usd aka 4 million myr enough to retire at the age of 26?

My concern is that the buying power of 1m usd will reduce a lot in 30 to 50 years, due to money printing, inflation etc.
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This is the misconception and misunderstanding most people have.

the 1 million usd or 4 million ringgit is not just going to stay idle and do nothing. One is supposed to deploy the funds smartly to earn above inflation return while living off it.
Wedchar2912
post Dec 27 2022, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(Zavia/GenX @ Dec 27 2022, 10:56 PM)
I thought ILP isnt fixed? Its subject to the investment doing well?
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It is "fixed", subject to investment performing better than their calculation and the cost of insurance remain as predicted.

If the investment did not do well enough to cover the cost of insurance (can be insurance cost goes up), then the insurance firm will ask you to pay a increased "fixed" amount moving forward.

This is how I understand it when I bought mine like 15 years back. So far, it has been "fixed" as the original amount.
Wedchar2912
post Dec 29 2022, 02:54 PM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Dec 28 2022, 01:14 PM)
That's where ILP comes in. Provided you got money in ILP, it helps to pay some of the insurance. But if you are just getting admitted for dengue/ food poisoning, it should not warrant increase. Lol.
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From what I can understand from the insurance agent, it should be based on the pool of insureds (ie not on a single person). And the funds in the ILP should only be used to pay off the monthly "medical card" fee.

Wedchar2912
post Dec 30 2022, 01:25 PM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 30 2022, 12:46 PM)
DIY investors like you surely can beat these ILP fund managers return right?
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nothing is certain.... anyone who tells you otherwise most probably is either not experienced enough or have an agenda.

that's why people say it is good to diversify....

I bought ILP like 15 years ago and been obediently paying my monthly premium since then.... now it has equity funds worth of like 30K rm.... not great, but not bad.
Wedchar2912
post Dec 31 2022, 01:00 PM

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QUOTE(elea88 @ Dec 31 2022, 12:53 PM)
FIRE if solo doable..

Add in kids .."habis cerita"

some more.. nowadays kids all private education. that suck out more $$$

then come the uni another round of sucking $$$..

then when they come out to work.. as parents we kesian. give downpayment for car.. downpayment for their property another round of sucking $$$$

so advise to the young.. do calculate all these into the retirement planning.
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FIRE is just a concept that one don't need to work actively anymore to afford one's lifestyle.

there are different levels of FIRE, as conceptually created by the FIRE communities around the world... from LEAN to Morbidly Obese FIRE version.

its a matter of aiming which level you want, even when you have kids. obese category FIRE can afford to send kids to private schools.

But most people don't focus much on one key aspect of FIRE.... is retiring at age 55 really can quality as early retirement? what about 50 years old? not many years ago, women in civil services retire at 50 (early retirement at 45).
Wedchar2912
post Dec 31 2022, 02:47 PM

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QUOTE(magika @ Dec 31 2022, 02:09 PM)
RM500 per day is just M40 lifestyle not a luxury. If take RM200 per day for general utility bills, petrol and the likes will have a balance of RM300. 3 main meals per day for a family of 4, is RM100 each meal and its hardly a luxury.
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I wonder how you arrive at 500rm per day (= 15K rm per month) means a lifestyle of M40. Need to stick with established stats for Malaysia.
The upper limit for M40 is at 11K rm per household, and this is income prior to taxation, savings etc.

the 15K rm per month refered by you I assume is clean spending money where there is no need to pay for taxes or earmark for savings. This definitely belongs to the lifestyle of T20, in fact the middle of T20.

ps: remember, all the B40 to T20 numbers are based on income prior to tax, epf deduction etc, and it is for a household making up of almost at least 2 adults... I just cannot recall the full definition of household as in how many average persons in the household.

This post has been edited by Wedchar2912: Dec 31 2022, 02:52 PM
Wedchar2912
post Dec 31 2022, 02:52 PM

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QUOTE(cklimm @ Dec 31 2022, 02:42 PM)
thats quite a T20 statement
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closer to T05 I think... tongue.gif
cos 11K rm is T20 already
Wedchar2912
post Dec 31 2022, 04:34 PM

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QUOTE(magika @ Dec 31 2022, 04:01 PM)
This is the reality now even thought the official classification is T20 . However the spending power has slipped from what used to be  T20 lifestyle to M40 lifestyle.
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But this is not how one should look at the issue and rationalize the numbers.
They should be based on facts (as much as possible) and with as little bias as possible as well.

For example, the T20 classification is most probably based on some stats by KRI, taking with a few years lag. It is still the best fact/data we have and we should stick with it.

inflation does come to play, and should be handled separately. Else, one will never retire because I can always one up you when it comes to inflation scenarios of a future that I can choose to be longer than yours.
Wedchar2912
post Dec 31 2022, 04:40 PM

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QUOTE(magika @ Dec 31 2022, 04:18 PM)
A few decades ago when i just started working, at that time a retirement sum of RM1500.00 monthly used to be a dream.
Fast foward to the present, and that sum is now poor man's territory.
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btw, there are a few methods to resolve this properly.

most people will just choose part time work or per hour wage jobs (very common in western worlds) to allow non-withdrawal of their retirement funds: ie reinvest their passive income.

the second, more common method is to have more funds than need before retirement, and then diligently segregate the funds into 2 pools. 1 pool is to generate income to spend, the other is to generate income to reinvest.
Wedchar2912
post Dec 31 2022, 04:47 PM

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QUOTE(magika @ Dec 31 2022, 04:42 PM)
I m there n living it so i should know. FIRE for quite a number of years. Official classification are like telling us what we should do and be happy about it.
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ok lar... it could be that your situation is unique and doesn't fit into the common "template/mould".

I find the bands to be quite representative and I had seen data of income previously from my workplace. and yeah, i also retired early... which is why at times got time to reply in public forums... smile.gif

Wedchar2912
post Dec 31 2022, 04:57 PM

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oh yeah, in case one is interested to guage how rich is a retiree with passive income of 500rm x30 = 15K rm compared to himself if he was still a working person.
For a working person, 11% EPF contribution, 19% tax rate (high income mah), say 20% savings rate (if not how to retire), that effectively means 50% of one's gross active working income got removed. The person would only be spending on the remainder 50%.

so a 15K rm passive retirement income is like 30K rm gross pay and is definitely in the T10 category.
Play with the percentage by adjusting for your own situation...
Wedchar2912
post Jan 9 2023, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE(magika @ Jan 9 2023, 02:32 PM)
( Repost from another thread )

Because of FIRE movement, quite a number of forumers are trying to make the cut. In order to achieve it, most simply lower the bar by saying , i can live with such and such a sum every month.

There should be a targetted approach with high bar with a cutout age. For example :

A. If i reach a sum of RM50 million by the age of 35 then RE.
B. IF not a sum of RM25 million by the age of 40...
C. If not a sum of RM15 million by the age of 45 ...
D. If not a sum of RM10 million by the age of 50...
E. If not a sum of RM5 million by the age of 55....
F. If not retire by the age of 60 or work as long as needed...

My thoughts....
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just noticed you posted here too...

btw, how come your definition of FIRE shifts so much from A to F? should you not be consistent with which version of FIRE you want?
Wedchar2912
post May 16 2023, 11:54 PM

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QUOTE(kochin @ May 16 2023, 10:27 PM)
guys, am thinking of taking the next step.

kindly advise if i have left out anything?

assuming if there are flaws or things i left out in the calculation please highlight.

ideally of course hoping that current savings are sufficient to cover and be in self sustaining mode, but of course if inflation rises, can always start "eating" into the current savings.

if anybody is able to help to improve the spreadsheet to say:
inflation rate at 3% to 5%, what would be the current required savings (both basic and upgrade version) value to cover the increase year on year for me to say live another 35 years.
alternatively same scenario applies but without self sustaining model but depreciating savings model.

thanks.

PS: any advise on what to do post retirement? i am currently in mid 40's
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Implicit in your pdf example is that the return on capital (4%) is real rate of return.
Ie, what you are targeting is to have your portfolio earn a nominal return of of around 7% (= 4% real return + 3% inflation), if you are assuming inflation moving forward is 3%. If not, the npv of your portfolio will erode as time passes.

if you assume 5% inflation, then you are basically saying your portfolio needs to earn nominal return of 9%.

I think you now realize that 4% nominal return is not sufficient... need to take riskier investments.

To have a depreciating assets as time passes is harder to example, but would be easier to visualize using a excel spreadsheet. It is similar to calculating mortgage payment of each month and where the payment goes to: reducing outstanding balance or interest payment.


Wedchar2912
post May 17 2023, 11:56 AM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ May 17 2023, 08:20 AM)
??? 4% return on capital

he just doing the 4% spending rule in reverse... instead of savings * 4% = spending... he doing savings = spending / 4%
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yeah, but I worry he thinks he should be targeting 4% return on capital. the 4% rule just works out how much drawdown a retiree can have from a diversified portfolio of certain criteria. It doesn't dictate the targeted return of capital.



Wedchar2912
post May 17 2023, 12:11 PM

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QUOTE(kochin @ May 17 2023, 08:59 AM)
thanks for your reply. in all honesty i find the reported inflation rate on yearly basis a bit unpredictable and rather hard to gauge. furthermore some items goes down too instead of up albeit more on increase rather than decrease though. but i understand your point.
but to argue further, it should be inflation rate on the spending rather than an outright 7-9% return on savings. so it should be 4% + (4% * 4%) = 4.16% the following year and continue on subsequently, no?

yes i forgotten to factor in ang pow and phone/pc replacement say once every 3-5 years.
fyi i got my ip7 from launch and still using it although i think it's time for a change.
travelling is meant for local travel and the "upgrade" which has a factor of RM6k per annum allows me to travel yearly somewhere below that threshold or travel somewhere <rm12k every 2 years. does that make sense?

paid off props - yes
stocks with divvy yield - yes
but not intending to muzzle the already complicated calculation hence only concentrating on return from cash instead.
and forgot to mention, everything is based on individual for the time being.
as the saying goes, help yourself before helping others.

yup. with the slightly higher opr, FD rates are going back to 4% ish and EPF is 5% ish or more.
am taking 4% just to be prudent without taking into account other riskier return which carries some risk of decreasing my capital
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yes, the inflation concern is on spending. Nonetheless, it is your assets/portfolio that is funding your spending. So to simplify the calculation, we either calculate everything in nominal terms or in inflation-adjusted terms.
(if you calculate your portfolio in nominal while spending in inflation-adjusted, your excel spreadsheet will get trickier.)

btw, the actual formula to adjust between nominal and inflation adjusted is (1+nominal) = (1+real) * (1+inflation).
I would hazard to guess that what you are trying to do in your formula a% + (b% * c%) is to say a is real return and b is spending and c is inflation, but summing them up doesn't mean anything as they are not of the same unit measurement. a relates to portfolio and b relates to spending.

Like what others say, there should be a misc item where you just throw some buffer in for spending. Sort of like emergency spending money, to account of error in planning.
Wedchar2912
post May 17 2023, 07:19 PM

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QUOTE(batman1172 @ May 17 2023, 04:12 PM)
this FI/RE thingy is new concept ? never heard of it until now. if retire early then do what?
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It is quite a old concept. At least back mid 2000s, but could be even earlier.

the focus is not on retirement; the main focus is on the criteria of what it means to be able to be financial independent or able to retire early. ie how much is enough.

After achieving FIRE, basically it is up to the person what he wants to do as the person is no longer enslaved by the need to earn a living.... if want to continue working, also can.

This post has been edited by Wedchar2912: May 17 2023, 07:19 PM
Wedchar2912
post May 17 2023, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE(joshgm_119 @ May 17 2023, 05:43 PM)
For a little context

SOS
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not that dude.... the concept predates him.


Wedchar2912
post May 18 2023, 01:19 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 18 2023, 12:40 PM)
user posted image
In reality, very few in this country could fi and re.
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nice... only need 2.2 million ringgit to be T01 in Malaysia...
Wedchar2912
post May 18 2023, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 18 2023, 01:29 PM)
Also mean about 99% of people net worth is <RM 2.2m and 99% people opinion and advise on investment, finance, etc is unworthy.

Except gomen servants, most people don't have perpetual pension, quality retirement life is a challenge to many. Fi/re is often promoted by mlm and money game to entice new recruits, is filled with many traps.
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The stats provider, like you said, is clearly targeting this segment only... the rest will be targeted by retail FI with mass manufactured products like UT or SI or FI.


Wedchar2912
post May 18 2023, 03:23 PM

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QUOTE(CommodoreAmiga @ May 18 2023, 03:08 PM)
IMO, 2.2m is only kuli level. True T1 throws a couple of million for loose change only.
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I believe it is more of a statistical fluke.

Lets say a person has 10 million ringgit networth. 99.9% chance within the 1% population size.
but if said person's family size is 5 persons, then it becomes 2 million on average.

then again, we don't know how Knight F calculate this, but the stats is not too inconsistent with the T20-M40-B40 income stats.

This post has been edited by Wedchar2912: May 18 2023, 03:27 PM

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