Usually ppl like this will say things like that to act like 'they know more than you and you should just be quiet'.

They usually don't know what they're talking about and would rather listen to the supplier than a passerby.

I agree that gliders separated too early don't grow as big and as healthy as gliders that were weaned properly.

What's that s'posed to mean?

Goodness, such a horrible set up and the gliders don't look well. I heard from a customer that the staff in PF tried to convince him to buy a glass tank and vine, just like that display, but the customer was smarter than that and kind of ignored the person trying to persuade him.

They shouldn't be in the light at all, and seems that there's no hiding spots available for them to shield themselves from the light.

WTH? In the pouch for 1 month than the breeder jaga for the second month??? What nonsense, the joey will only come out of the pouch after 2 months unless the dumb breeder pried the joey from the mother's pouch. Insane ppl. A joey should be in the mother's pouch for 2 months, then stay with the mother for another 2 months before it can leave the mother. Even 6-7 weeks oop is still not so bad, but whatever he said is utter nonsense.

Pet shops that sell accessories for dogs and cats should have. I saw Pet Family was selling.

Come, tmrw or day after I can meet and clean the wound for you if it needs to be cleaned. Is there anymore pus leaking out or does it look dried up and scabbed over?

I will bring the medication for your hedgie as well, I ran out of the injectibles, so I have to pass you the oral, mix it with some canned cat food, I can give you the brand names when we meet.

Sry, still rearranging my inbox, so it's easier for me to post.

The method stated for introducing gliders here is very general and can be used on gliders of all ages, but it really does depend on the gliders themselves. Adults generally you have to be more careful when introducing to new gliders, especially joeys. Young joeys are much easier as they are not that matured and dominant yet. My Billie lives in a separate cage right next to Miko and Dakota's cage but she's one anti-social glider. She attacks anything else on sight through her cage bars, she even tried to attack a hamster once when she was playing in the car and the hamster was in a paper bag. She kept trying to go into the bag to kacau the hamster.

Dakota, on the other hand, went smoothly with Miko and their age different was about a year and a half apart. But Billie has been living next to them for more than 6 months already, but she still refuses to get along. So as a result, I have to spend a lot more time with Billie because she's alone.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 21 2008, 04:48 PM

Hey Emino, I've seen your glider. Small but very cute, take good care of him ya, he's very cute when he eats.

I don't think it's a good idea to give him a spouse tho. For good reasons. Better another male in the future.

They look a bit scrawny but they don't look too young. Please ask the seller what he or she has been feeding them, how they house them, whether he or she bred them or are they bought from petshop/miller and he or she is reselling them. Very important to search on the background.

The apple in multiple pictures is not a good sign as apple should not consist of more than just a few cubes only once or twice a week. Other fruits higher in calcium ratio should be given instead as their diet and needs are varied, specially the calcium to phosphorus ratios.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 22 2008, 01:34 AM

Typical advise given from a glider mill. Gliders need fruits such as papaya, mango, melon like sun melon etc, honeydew, persimmon, water chestnuts, black berries, cranberries, jambu air, guava etc. They also do need crickets , mealworms and cereals in their daily diet, no they will not go blind. Apples and pears only not enough, they also need some veggies in their diets like some lettuce, carrots, celery etc.

High quality cat food? What brand is this high quality cat food? Cat food should only be given as treats, not as the staple. The only thing I see good in this diet is the yoghurt, cannot give too much also. The only brand that is alright and safe to give gliders is Orijen. Giving the dog/puppy version of this brand is better as cat food usually have taurine and much higher levels of protein whilst the dog food is more towards the omnivour side, which is better.

Is this guy chinese and researches from chinese forums? A LYN meber once told me his friend didn't feed them live food like crickets and mealworms because he read from a chinese forum that it will cause them to turn aggressive. This is incorrect info, these live foods should be a part of their daily diet, if not it can be substituted with cooked protein like boiled chicken.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 22 2008, 01:51 AM

Pet Safari feeds them almost the same thing like apples and 'high quality' cat food because the miller they buy from advises them to do so. They are also active and naughty, but I've heard quite a few glider deaths from there. What they take in when they are young is important as it's the most vulnerable time when their bodies are building up. They are exotic animals, therefore needing a much more rounded nutritive diet, not like dogs or cats that you can just buy from the pet store, cut open the bag and ready for feeding right away.

If you ask me, find your joeys elsewhere and read the first page on their needs.

Cat food is just nice for our Malaysian weather?

Let's see, why do we call them 'millers' in the first place? Why not breeder or home breeder? There is a significant difference in the words. A miller can apply to almost anyone breeding any specific or multiple animals in mass production. Do you know how many gliders they have? They usually have almost 200 wild caught adult gliders breeding all year round. You say that they don't need to follow what we feed, yes, you don't need to, but do gliders eat cat food and apples as their staple in the wild? No right? The breeder that supplies to Pet Safari does not feed them Orijen because if he did, he wouldn't be making profit as it's a lot more expensive compared to other more commercial brands.

The research done is not as perfected as dogs or cats, like I said before, they are EXOTIC animals, so since so little research is done, the best diet for them is to replicate the variety they get in the wild. It's like me saying I should feed cat food to my snake because buying rats and mice is too much hassle and it's cheaper to feed cat food, since I have a cat anyway, so I feed cat food.

Btw, we're not naming or labeling anyone here as a miller, I just said the advise is from a typical miller.

How can you say this, 'some love western food n others might not like it tooo so i think the best thing for all of us to do is feed ur suggies with nutritous food according to ur budget as long as the suggies r well looked after n have proper care.' This 'according to your budget as long as they are looked after and properly cared for', please explain. How can feeding apples and cat food, 'according to the miller's budget', be properly looking after and caring for them? The most care he can probably give IS feeding them, unless the miller does nothing but spend time with all the breeding sugar gliders.

The thing why ppl worry about the age is usually because 'If they are too young is there a risk they might fall sick or die?'

I don't think it's wrong to ask and worry about his/her gliders, though a bit late as it's after the person bought them, it's still not too late to ask and know more about their health and nutrition. It's IS important to know the age because gliders that are too young can't even take fruits, they need milk and the milk they need is not your average cow or goat milk you buy from the super market.

Of course you fully understand what he is saying, it's because you are a hamster miller yourself. It fits the criteria. You have about 100 hamsters. You are breeding them for quantity, not quality right? But the difference here is, hamster nutrition cannot be compared to gliders.

You get grains from the pet store that sells them in huge sacks. Get a few grains, barley, wheat, oat groats, let's not forget the kuaci, millet etc. Mix them all up and store them in some store room. It'll last you a month or so, everyday just open the bag, dish out a bowlfull, chore done. But you take initiative to go buy sacks of grains from the shop! You take initiative to mix it all together! But we know what hamsters need to eat. We know that it's mainly grains like those. Do we know what gliders need to eat? Can their nutritional needs be fulfilled by cat food and apples? Course not.

This mindset about, 'If it weren't for these ppl breeding in mass quantity, you won't have such a pet.' I find that wrong. A number of years ago, gliders were not RM300. not even RM488, they were above RM1000. They were already AVAILABLE, just that ppl couldn't afford to buy. They were not MADE AVAILABLE by ppl that bred them in mass. In a way it was good that they were that price, make ppl treasure them a lot more and curbs impulse buyers from getting on impulse.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 22 2008, 01:20 PM

Cococrunch? Wah, need to stop that eh. The joey may look fine, but chocolate(cocoa) is poisonous to a lot of animals, even to dogs. The joey may look fine now, but goodness knows what's going on inside it and later when discovered might be too late. Some ppl also give chocolate to their dogs and say that their dog loves it and their dog is still alive, but it already has been proven as toxic, just that some dogs don't get affected as fast so soon, but it will show later if they continue to feed.

As mentioned a lot before, we don't encourage buying from pet shops because they usually get their stock from mills.

My gliders eat mealworms and crickets almost everyday, they do not bite or cakar me. Same goes to the other 10+ glider owners here. Did you leave your glider too long without playing with them? Or they happen to jump on you and accidentally scratch you?

Well, can't really say anything if he doesn't want to listen.

I guess Glider University shares one thing with me, Don't know? Don't do it!

Prevention is better than cure, your local vet and doctor will usually tell you this.

About the pear, I rarely ever feed them only one type of fruit for a prolonged time, they get 3 types of fruits daily that rotates within a wide varied list, every other day they get the glider mix. So far they didn't get diarrhoea when I included pear.

As a side note,
When you rotate a lot your glider's stomach will adapt to it. If your glider has been eating very minimal variety of fruits or had a limited diet all it's life before you got it, they can get sick if you suddenly change the diet as their stomach is not used to it. That's why it's important to know what the seller has been feeding them so you can change it without risking your glider's health.

It's like dog food, though many brands claim that their food is nutritionally balanced, I do not stay long on one brand because I doubt feeding only one brand will give my dogs all the nutrition they need. I always rotate within a few brands I trust, like this month Orijen, next month Acana, next next California Natural etc.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 22 2008, 03:15 PM

Oh yea, btw, that pet shop in Brickfields. They are selling WC gliders there and there was a very big female that looked nice to me and I saw 2 lumps in her pouch, that was awhile back. Then recently I went to that pet shop to buy crickets, I saw the chinese guy, the one that usually sits in the office, talking to some other chinese businessmen and he held up the cage with that female.

What he proceeded to do shocked me and made me turn away in disgust. The glider had nothing to hide in, the best she could do was to sit in the food bowl with her joey, then the chinese guy lifted the cage and blew very hard and sharp at the mother, which caused her to panic and run to the farthest top of the other side of the cage. She looked so terrified and worried at the same time as she kept looking back at her joey in the food bowl. The joey looked barely a week out of pouch and it laid helpless in the food bowl, away from the warmft of it's mother until the man set the cage back onto the floor. I heard him saying about breeding them and how easy it was.

Such sick and twisted people exist, causing so much terror to a helpless mother just to show ppl that probably wouldn't buy because he's selling just a high price for WC adult gliders. God knows how many times he did that on that day just to show ppl.

Gliders can be considered lactose intolerant as they can only tolerate very small amounts of lactose, lactose in cow and goat milk is too high, that's why they get diarrhoea.

You need to get this brand, 'Pet's Own Lactose-Free Milk', or you can try to find lactose free milk for human babies, but make sure it's got no corn or soy products in it. But they don't look too bad, so feeding them a portion of yoghurt would have to suffice. If you can, try to get some Yakult yoghurt drink as it has probiotics and lots of good grade beneficial bacteria. Try not to feed too much papaya too often as I've experienced young joeys getting diarrhoea if fed too much.

Don't need the delikate vitamin drops, just provide more different types of fruits. Mango, water chestnut, persimmon, jambu air etc. Try and boil some chicken, give them the breast meat. Don't add anything, just boil in water.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 22 2008, 03:58 PM

The shop there feeds them mainly kuaci and supplemented water. Not even from a drinker, it's left in a hanging bowl so the water gets dirty very easily. That shop is a very very smelly, gross and unhealthy shop. Ben felt sick after going inside. I only go there for the crickets and mealworms.

It's kinda cute in a way but that kinda freaks me out. :S

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 22 2008, 04:07 PM

Lol, if you would like to compare I don't mind, just don't catch me on a busy day. But it kind of makes me feel like when I was in primary school, like I used to compare with my friends whose lollypop was bigger or who could eat their ice cream faster and not get brain freeze.

Did I say you didn't care about your animals? I said you take initiative to do all this, but the main keys of a miller is that you breed in mass and do not check the genetics, you don't back track 3 generations beforehand before you breed them and such. Like I said, you take initiative to do all this but you do not do it selectively, you breed for quantity right? Do you or do you not? Do you look into their genes? Know what genes each hamster carries so you can carry out to find a suitable gene to compliment it? A normal golden syrian may carry many genes, they may carry the BEC gene, the cinnamon gene, the black gene, basically any of the recessive genes. If you do not take all this into consideration, then you're considered a miller.

It's like businessmen, there are good businessmen that do their jobs well, earn a steady pay and honest living, but there are some that cheat ppl for a living, have terrible patience and such just that they cheat ppl professionally without tarnishing their reputation, but they both are still considered businessmen, no? Ugly model, stunningly beautiful model, model that can't talk properly, still a model, no?

Like explained before, a miller is basically a person that breeds a specific or multiple types of animals in mass production. There are many categories of millers, but the basic explanation for it is that. If I had 100+ hamsters, 200+ breeding gliders, 300+ rats and mice and I don't research on their genetics, all I do is feed them and breed them for the quantity and sell them, then I am considered a miller. But I do not, like Crazymouse said, you think in business terms but you take into consideration about the diet, but when you agreed on the 'feed according to your budget' thing for the gliders, I disagreed, that's all. I do not think in business terms, I am a hobbyist that breeds under a certain standard for quality, that is that.

What is a (Name of animal) miller? A mass breeder of (Name of animal).

What are these mass breeders usually called? (Name of animal) Miller.

It's the same thing, just that 'mass breeder' has not been used very often to describe millers, so it doesn't sound so bad.

I do know that you willingly accept animals given to you free or cheap and you breed them to sell. In breeder/Pet ownership Ethics, that is not a good thing to do. That already marks the level of your quality. A breeder that controls their line and genetics will not simply accept hamsters from just anyone to breed.

In a way, I don't think it's fair to compare though, my line consists of imported blood, so they look different from the local syrians. I don't have any robos to compare to yours, I only have some syrians that I kept after my breeding project. Unless you want to compare the health, that would mean going to the vet, checking the internal organs like the liver, kidneys, lungs, the blood, the level of white blood cells and red blood cells, the nasal passage, the intestines etc. I would rather spend that money elsewhere like on buying better food, hay and bedding for my animals.

It all boils down to



Like I said, unless you do nothing but spend time everyday with your breeding animals like a person that has 200 breeding pairs of gliders, you will have barely enough time to eat, sleep, bathe, work etc. It can't be helped that the level of care deteriorates due to the large number, so as a result the animals will deteriorate in some way, be it quality, health etc. Unless you hire a full-time worker just to care for your animals or something.

I am not trying to brand you or make you look bad. If I really wanted to brand you as the so called taboo word HAMSTER MILLER, I would have said something like, 'This Mako guy only breeds for the numbers and sells them at a cheap price to attract ppl to buy in quantity, feeds them cheap grains bought from some pet shop. Don't buy from him, his hamsters sure unhealthy and die faster.' This is IF I really don't have brains and simply bark things without thinking, wanting to brand you and really do think sooo badly about the word 'MILLER'.



Your post about the gliders and Iory's opinion and stuff is already self-explanatory. It all started with a simple, 'Advise from a typical miller', why do you feel you must defend this word from ppl so much? Unless you are one? Especially when I did not say he/she is a glider miller? If a person is doing something that fits that criteria, like the example I put on myself, the person is considered a miller for certain type(s) of animal(s).

So because millers are feeding their gliders apples and cat food, must we do so too? Is it wrong to say that the advise is from a miller so that the person receiving the advise would know and we can correct it? How else would you advise? 'Oh, that's what 'mass breeders of sugar gliders' feed their gliders to reduce cost and gain maximum output.' That actually sounds worse and the word 'mass breeder' will not be taken kindly. We do know ppl running glidermills, but yet we still do not brand them or reveal their identity. All we can do is educate possible future glider owners and let them decide. If they ask for an opinion directly on a certain glider, we will speak out our honest opinion because they asked for it.


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Tired of writing such long replies, sorry to tumpang the hamsters in the topic though. Also, I won't go any further as I don't want this thread to be closed. Want to discuss further than this bout hamsters can welcome it in the Hamster thread. The spoilers are to make the post shorter and not such an eyesore.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jan 23 2008, 07:35 AM