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> Let me teach you Logical Thinking and Fallacies, to debunk False Arguments

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SUSlowya
post Jun 15 2021, 08:06 AM

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QUOTE(mmusang @ Jun 15 2021, 12:19 AM)
I'm not talking about the Proof part,
I'm talking about Burden of Proof logical thinking and fallacies,
people who making claim shall provide proof. as simple as that!

so people who making claim usually avoid responsibilities by:

    Denying they need to offer any evidence to support their claim
    Pretending they already offered evidence (when they haven’t)
    Shifting the burden to someone else by demanding they disprove the claim
    Shifting the burden to someone else by demanding they prove the validity of their opposing claim
furthermore, if we are not establishing this, anybody can make any claim just like that, watever it is.
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and i already agreed on that, not sure what you are still keep going at. Move on to next pls.
SUSlowya
post Jun 15 2021, 08:21 AM

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We don't need another narcissistic hothead here to vent his compulsive behavior like in the (not serious) kopitiam, if i spot another one, you know who you are, i will report and remove.

This is not your usual debate playground, this is for education purpose, for those who appreciate it only.

This post has been edited by lowya: Jun 15 2021, 08:29 AM
Endeavour
post Jun 15 2021, 08:37 AM

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Watch any video with Trump in it.. especially the ones when he first started campaigning - chances are there's one or more types of fallacies with the stuff that he says
SUSlowya
post Jun 15 2021, 08:39 AM

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next,

Confusion of Correlation and Causation: Making claims about the cause of something simply because there exist a correlation between two things e.g. high number of Relative Risk Reduction (RRR) vaccine efficacy.

this one is too common, even professionals fell for it.

If you are clear which is correlation and which is cause, only then you can solve the real problem. When you see people use Correlation as Causation, you walk away, don't argue further.
SUSlowya
post Jun 15 2021, 08:41 AM

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QUOTE(Endeavour @ Jun 15 2021, 08:37 AM)
Watch any video with Trump in it.. especially the ones when he first started campaigning - chances are there's one or more types of fallacies with the stuff that he says
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True, couple with appeal to authority (as a president) it works wonder, but let's not ad hominem him, most politicians fall under same category.

Perhaps one of the best way to use Critical Thinking is for educate voters (with this topic), for them to choose, hopefully, the most probable solution provider aka politician.

Nevertheless, good example u gave.
Starbucki
post Jun 15 2021, 08:47 AM

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How about people who flex at every thread? Is there a name for that?
SUSlowya
post Jun 15 2021, 08:49 AM

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next,

Misunderstanding Statistics Fallacy (sorry no fancy name here): Making strange or erroneous claim about a particular idea by using statistics that have little or no use to the real application.

Classic example is vaccine's Relative Risk Reduction (RRR) versus Absolute Risk Reduction (ARR). ARR also called risk difference (RD), which is better way to compare vaccine efficacy.

However RRR was misused for marketing purpose by bigpharma, even the professionals fell for it, but that is not the main discussion here.

to read a Misunderstanding Statistics Fallacy is not easy but require some preliminary technical understanding. Related: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK63647/

This post has been edited by lowya: Jun 15 2021, 08:54 AM
SUSlowya
post Jun 15 2021, 08:52 AM

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QUOTE(Starbucki @ Jun 15 2021, 08:47 AM)
How about people who flex at every thread? Is there a name for that?
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you are asking for description (word), we are discussing logical/illogical (statement that back the point someone trying to make).

btw, for the word u looked for, i just used it if u even notice few posts back - "narcissistic hothead"
Starbucki
post Jun 15 2021, 09:12 AM

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Jun 15 2021, 09:19 AM
This post has been deleted by lowya because: i know what u are going at.

oe_kintaro
post Jun 15 2021, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(Endeavour @ Jun 15 2021, 08:37 AM)
Watch any video with Trump in it.. especially the ones when he first started campaigning - chances are there's one or more types of fallacies with the stuff that he says
*
Trump is a textbook narcissist. Narcissists are never wrong in their minds, and warp reality and facts in service of their own needs, i.e., the good things are always their own doing, while the bad things are always someone else's fault: reality is always secondary to the emotional/instinctual impact. Narcissists have an overwhelming need to be at the center of attention. The reason Trump is so effective is because his way of looking at things resonates with a certain percentage of the population with the same psychological traits, hence the fanaticism you see today in the portion of the grassroots who continue to support him. Typically these would be people with low metacognition and other sorts of pathological psychological conditions.

It doesn't matter how many types of fallacies he commits. Basically it is next to impossible to engage a narcissist with just facts and reasoning. If you find yourself in a running flame war with a narcissist, reacting to provocation is usually only adding fuel to fire. Ignoring a narcissist is the best way of depriving him of oxygen because he can't stand not being the center of attention.

This post has been edited by oe_kintaro: Jun 15 2021, 11:03 AM
Fanvil1534
post Jun 15 2021, 01:27 PM

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QUOTE(diffyhelman2 @ Jun 14 2021, 06:38 PM)
Example
Hesitant guy
I have concerns about vaccine xyz because i read the risk of suffering from abcd is much more likely compared to the  risk of me falling seriously ill from been unvaccinated.

Strawman critic argument: omg why are you been such an antivaxx boomer who believes whatever fake news you read on WhatsApp. Vaccines do not reprogram your dna!

Strawman critic premises his whole argument on hesitant guy been an anti vaxxer while not addressing the core issue of his concern which is the risk benefit ratio of taking the vaccine.  He also brings in another strawman  by  asserting that  the hesitant guy believes that vaccines reprogram his dna.
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user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

Case in point.
I learned there is no point arguing with someone who has only a sense of duality in any issues, whether you're with us or against us mentality, gives a strawman argument and doesn't give sources of facts to back claims.
SUSlowya
post Jun 15 2021, 03:25 PM

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QUOTE(Fanvil1534 @ Jun 15 2021, 01:27 PM)
Case in point.
I learned there is no point arguing with someone who has only a sense of duality in any issues, whether you're with us or against us mentality, gives a strawman argument and doesn't give sources of facts to back claims.
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those trooper on payrole are paid to do propaganda, it's no longer their personal view, it's the job to brings the narrative, if the reader has weak mind, without the ability to tell a fallacy from fact, the they will end up singing the same song. Zombies virus are contagious too.
N33d
post Jun 15 2021, 04:39 PM

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QUOTE(SleepingDragon @ Jun 14 2021, 08:26 PM)
Survivorship Bias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
Please read the wikipedia for explanation, I provide some examples:

1. I play shares/crypto. Sometimes I win sometimes I lose money. I only tell ppl (or post on lowyat forum) when I make money. Then everyone thinks I make money all the time.

2. I get rejected 9 out of 10 girls I approach. But I approached 100 girls (get rejected 90 times) and still dapat 10 girls so i'm seen in public for some of the 10 girls. My rejections are not shown to the public. So ppl think i'm a playboy PUA expert.

3. Girls think that every guy is a playboy, but they only think about guys in top 10% and they think the rest of the 90% don't exist and therefore doesn't register in their head. So they think every guy (which is the 10%) is a playboy (because the top 10% can dapat multiple girls).
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survivor bias
in my workplace, last time we were implementing a function that auto capture and submit our internal usage statistic in order to improve our software/app quality where needed
according to the stats, everything seems fine. But we kept getting complaints our stuff crashes here and there

After a while I realized, those critical error and crash didnt even made it to the database, those cases that made it are the one that running fine LOL


SUSlowya
post Jun 17 2021, 09:01 AM

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Another Fallacy for today,

Slippery Slope Argument: arguing that a change in procedure, law or action will create a domino-effect of adverse exaggerated consequences.

Example: If you don't <insert illogical unscientific intend/motive/narratives>, you will kill us (an example of exaggerated consequences or slippery slope).

<insert> was used very profoundly recently, such as "wear mask, get vaccine, stay at home, avoid repurposed drugs, lockdown, stay 1m apart, etc"

Such argument however is very effective when combined with Appeal to Authority to use against weak minds.

This post has been edited by lowya: Jun 17 2021, 09:02 AM
diffyhelman2
post Jun 17 2021, 02:43 PM

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Hi ts i have a new example for you to analyze. What fallacy is this?

QUOTE(etan26 @ Jun 17 2021, 02:40 PM)
"Even with vaccination also dieded." I didn't know with vaccination we could live forever like Shih Huang Ti ..... or we got conned
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This post has been edited by diffyhelman2: Jun 17 2021, 02:43 PM
SUSlowya
post Jun 17 2021, 05:31 PM

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QUOTE(diffyhelman2 @ Jun 17 2021, 02:43 PM)
Hi ts i have a new example for you to analyze. What fallacy is this?
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Your bolded part, it was a sarcasm, not an argument.

more examples are welcome, i'm having fun doing this.
diffyhelman2
post Jun 17 2021, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE(lowya @ Jun 17 2021, 05:31 PM)
Your bolded part, it was a sarcasm, not an argument.

more examples are welcome, i'm having fun doing this.
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I was wondering what the fallacy was when someone infers an extreme and ridiculous conclusion from a given statement.
SUSlowya
post Jun 17 2021, 06:54 PM

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QUOTE(diffyhelman2 @ Jun 17 2021, 05:48 PM)
I was wondering what the fallacy was when someone infers an extreme and ridiculous conclusion from a given statement.
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depends on context they put it

one way it could be Slippery Slope as just mentioned https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=101319048

a lot of fallacies are extreme and ridiculous

This post has been edited by lowya: Jun 17 2021, 06:55 PM
SUSlowya
post Jun 17 2021, 07:00 PM

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next, very popular in this forum

CONFIRMATION BIAS ARGUMENT: making argument that depends on their personal bias/EXPERIENCE, ignoring other facts that their (isolated) personal experience is not a fact or reality to others (Similar to cherry picking based on experience or confirmation)

Racists often has Confirmation Bias because their prejudice formed over the years mixing with other racist people, CONFIRMED by their friends or family since young. In reality, their personal network is a reflection of themselves if they exposed a lot to negative people, which has nothing to do with race.

That's why,
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with EXPERIENCE." ― Mark Twain

This post has been edited by lowya: Jun 17 2021, 07:04 PM
SUSlowya
post Jun 18 2021, 01:16 PM

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next up, Appeal to Desperation and Appeal to Ignorance, or let's call it Appeal to Ignorant Desperado if used combined.

QUOTE(judas @ Jun 18 2021, 12:40 PM)
look, big picture.
U know the vaccines aint some silver bullet, u know exactly what i mean there.

But, the thing that killed 80 person a day in our country is due to the cytokine storm, not the bloody virus itself.
At least get some kind of vaccine (doesnt matter whatever brands), in your body, to make sure the body at least recognize the virus,
and then at least you dont get severe cytokine storm/shock when the body suddenly found some unidentified high viral load in the lungs,

So, to me, why do you even compare vaccine efficacy, since the main objective is to prevent death?
therefore the seroconversion is the most important thing, not the efficacy per-se.

just get the damn vaccine, ASAP.
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QUOTE(DJJD @ Jun 18 2021, 12:59 PM)
Appeal to desperation fallacy

Bahrain took sinopharm and at same per capita as Malaysia they are having 195 dead
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Appeal to Desperation and Appeal to Ignorance argument has been used for almost everything imaginable since 2019, including social distancing, mask (then double mask), disinfecting, stay at home, endless lockdown, etc. in the similar context especially situation when it lack of information but solution is desperately needed.

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