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> Proton Saga vs Proton Persona vs Beeza, Which one worth to buy ?

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TSchuan30378
post May 3 2021, 10:54 PM, updated 4 months ago

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Hi Forumers,

Just request u all give any opinion or comment for above 3 models car, which one worth to buy ? Recently user are most welcome to give the comment, thank you very much !! thumbup.gif
_Zephyre_
post May 3 2021, 11:09 PM

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If budget isn't a concern, definitely the full spec Persona. It's one segment above the Saga/Bezza and is probably the most well equipped out of the three.
fireballs
post May 3 2021, 11:18 PM

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Persona or ativa
TSchuan30378
post May 3 2021, 11:31 PM

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QUOTE(_Zephyre_ @ May 3 2021, 11:09 PM)
If budget isn't a concern, definitely the full spec Persona. It's one segment above the Saga/Bezza and is probably the most well equipped out of the three.
*
Thx for the comment, Persona Premium cost RM 56k+ , Proton Premium RM 42k, while Bezza around RM 50K if not mistaken, price difference quite big if compare between saga & persona sweat.gif , but as u mentioned is one segment above , got pros & cons
TSchuan30378
post May 3 2021, 11:32 PM

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QUOTE(fireballs @ May 3 2021, 11:18 PM)
Persona or ativa
*
Ativa price quite high (RM 62k - RM 72K) sweat.gif
fireballs
post May 3 2021, 11:34 PM

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Saga for stability
Persona for stability + safety
Beza for fuel efficiency

Choose beza if you do grab.
TSchuan30378
post May 3 2021, 11:37 PM

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QUOTE(fireballs @ May 3 2021, 11:34 PM)
Saga for stability
Persona for stability + safety
Beza for fuel efficiency

Choose beza if you do grab.
*
Thx for the comment, heard bezza under power? However bezza only 1.0 cc if compare saga 1.3 cc & persona 1.6cc, how about the fuel efficiency for those proton model ?
fireballs
post May 3 2021, 11:46 PM

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Test drive to gauge. Join the f&f section to read more

Since petrol is cheap now , focus on safety then.


Since you don't do grab, then can cross out beza
TSchuan30378
post May 3 2021, 11:52 PM

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QUOTE(fireballs @ May 3 2021, 11:46 PM)
Test drive to gauge. Join the f&f section to read more

Since petrol is cheap now , focus on safety then.
Since you don't do grab, then can cross out beza
*
Noted with thx thumbsup.gif
FrogBlob
post May 4 2021, 07:23 AM

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Bezza just look at the X model. AV model not worth 50k.
SleeplessEyes
post May 4 2021, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 3 2021, 11:37 PM)
Thx for the comment, heard bezza under power? However bezza only 1.0 cc if compare saga 1.3 cc & persona 1.6cc, how about the fuel efficiency for those proton model ?
*
Bezza has both 1.0L and 1.3L .
And the 1.0L isnt underpower either for normal drives.

My pick is for best of both stability and fuel efficiency - Saga 1.3L . Otherwise if FC is your super concern, then go Bezza 1.0L Manual
BTW, please stop using the word CC. It should be L. For Litre.
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 09:07 AM

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QUOTE(FrogBlob @ May 4 2021, 07:23 AM)
Bezza just look at the X model. AV model not worth 50k.
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Agreed, tq notworthy.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 09:07 AM

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QUOTE(SleeplessEyes @ May 4 2021, 08:28 AM)
Bezza has both 1.0L and 1.3L .
And the 1.0L isnt underpower either for normal drives.

My pick is for best of both stability and fuel efficiency - Saga 1.3L . Otherwise if FC is your super concern, then go Bezza 1.0L Manual
BTW, please stop using the word CC. It should be L. For Litre.
*
Noted with thx smile.gif
amscouzach57
post May 4 2021, 10:17 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 3 2021, 10:54 PM)
Hi Forumers,

Just request u all give any opinion or comment for above 3 models car, which one worth to buy ? Recently user are most welcome to give the comment, thank you very much !! thumbup.gif
*
I'm an ex owner of Saga & current owner of Persona.

Test driven the Bezza before decided to purchase Persona.

Persona is essentially an upgrade from the Saga. Space, power, comfort, safety & driving dynamics.

Driving or sitting in a Bezza feels claustrophobic. & the car screams cheap even on the AV spec & that RM50k price tag.

The only saving grace is the fuel consumption. If you're doing Grab full time, Bezza is for you.

I heard thaT Persona MC2 is coming soon. Should be better than the current one. Could be worth waiting if you're not in a hurry


Mr Mercedes
post May 4 2021, 10:53 AM

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Persona or bezza for me
ShinHaruhi
post May 4 2021, 12:00 PM

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bezza if you want better experience for after sale service ,
saga/proton well you you know their after sale service not to good, hope can improve later
dogbert_chew
post May 4 2021, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 3 2021, 11:31 PM)
Thx for the comment, Persona Premium cost RM 56k+ , Proton Premium RM 42k, while Bezza around RM 50K if not mistaken, price difference quite big if compare between saga & persona  sweat.gif , but as u mentioned is one segment above , got pros & cons
*
Saga Premium 40K (excl the R3 cosmetics for 2K more) vs
Persona Std 45K

Saga has the 7" entertainment screen so includes rear parking camera. Daylight running lights .

Persona basically just 3cm longer but the chassis is one segment above hence stronger, more stable for highway speeds with a 1.6l engine for comfortable cruising

Depends on your needs and if you can appreciate the more robust Persona. Else Saga is fine with a higher fuel consumption vs Perodua models

ru40342
post May 4 2021, 01:38 PM

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Recommendations are great but you should go and test drive those cars yourself. For such a big spending (>40k), you should be the one making the decision, not others.

I was going to get a Bezza as a daily driver but after a test drive of both Bezza and Saga, I booked the Proton Saga straight away the same day.

Besides all the points mentioned above, I can add 1 more reason why I prefer Proton (Saga or Persona) than Bezza: driving feel.

It is hard to describe but driving Saga feels safer and more fun than a Bezza. I don't get the sense of fun when driving Bezza and it lacks character. Bezza is just a transportation tool to get me somewhere.

Saga (and Persona if you need more space and don't mind extra fc) feels more than just a transport. It has characters and can bring joy to me. Put it this way: I drive Bezza because I need to go somewhere. I drive Saga because i like to drive Saga.

Hope this helps.
kdr93
post May 4 2021, 05:24 PM

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All things considered, definitely Persona by a large margin.

If you are okay with the finances, it is definitely a better car than the other 2.
Stirmling
post May 4 2021, 05:29 PM

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I'd personally prefer Persona if budget isnt a concern
1.6L pickup is very nice to have on highways.
Persona Exec imo.

Am driving Saga now. Would've prefered to go for Persona honestly. Decision was made when I didnt think my side income would pick up more income. dry.gif
Saga feels good to drive at high speeds on highway but have to floor the pedal sometimes.
zero5177
post May 4 2021, 05:32 PM

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If you want comfort for driver and passenger and drive quality that you would appreciate, go for Proton.

If you don't mind all only want a car with minimum running cost and Good resale value, go for Bezza.

Persona Vs Saga wise, if you can afford, Persona will be miles ahead in term of spaciousness, comfort and ride quality, even the body is much rigid than the other 2.
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 11:45 PM

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QUOTE(amscouzach57 @ May 4 2021, 10:17 AM)
I'm an ex owner of Saga & current owner of Persona.

Test driven the Bezza before decided to purchase Persona.

Persona is essentially an upgrade from the Saga. Space, power, comfort, safety & driving dynamics.

Driving or sitting in a Bezza feels claustrophobic. & the car screams cheap even on the AV spec & that RM50k price tag.

The only saving grace is the fuel consumption. If you're doing Grab full time, Bezza is for you.

I heard thaT Persona MC2 is coming soon. Should be better than the current one.  Could be worth waiting if you're not in a hurry
*
Thx for the comment & info, yes, i also heard about that new Persona will be launching soon , but i asked the salesperson , they just said no idea about that, maybe worry everyone waiting for new look then hold the deal now dry.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 11:46 PM

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QUOTE(ShinHaruhi @ May 4 2021, 12:00 PM)
bezza if you want better experience for after sale service ,
saga/proton well you you know their after sale service not to good, hope can improve later
*
Proton sales service sucks since long time ago & i also hope can improve one day haha
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 11:49 PM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ May 4 2021, 12:05 PM)
Saga Premium 40K (excl the R3 cosmetics for 2K more) vs
Persona Std 45K

Saga has the 7" entertainment screen so includes rear parking camera. Daylight running lights .

Persona basically just 3cm longer but the chassis is one segment above hence stronger, more stable for highway speeds with a 1.6l engine for comfortable cruising

Depends on your needs and if you can appreciate the more robust Persona. Else Saga is fine with a higher fuel consumption vs Perodua models
*
Thx for the comment, im a person who not really like change car in 3-4 years time, now my wira 1.5 auto 2003 still using , so looking for more durable one with the acceptable price sweat.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 11:51 PM

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QUOTE(ru40342 @ May 4 2021, 01:38 PM)
Recommendations are great but you should go and test drive those cars yourself. For such a big spending (>40k), you should be the one making the decision, not others.

I was going to get a Bezza as a daily driver but after a test drive of both Bezza and Saga, I booked the Proton Saga straight away the same day.

Besides all the points mentioned above, I can add 1 more reason why I prefer Proton (Saga or Persona) than Bezza: driving feel.

It is hard to describe but driving Saga feels safer and more fun than a Bezza. I don't get the sense of fun when driving Bezza and it lacks character. Bezza is just a transportation tool to get me somewhere.

Saga (and Persona if you need more space and don't mind extra fc) feels more than just a transport. It has characters and can bring joy to me. Put it this way: I drive Bezza because I need to go somewhere. I drive Saga because i like to drive Saga.

Hope this helps.
*
Good points bro, i will do a test drive lately for sure , feeling of drive is important thumbsup.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 11:54 PM

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QUOTE(Stirmling @ May 4 2021, 05:29 PM)
I'd personally prefer Persona if budget isnt a concern
1.6L pickup is very nice to have on highways.
Persona Exec imo.

Am driving Saga now. Would've prefered to go for Persona honestly. Decision was made when I didnt think my side income would pick up more income. dry.gif
Saga feels good to drive at high speeds on highway but have to floor the pedal sometimes.
*
Hows the feeling for driving saga? will feel underpower ? i also think to buy persona but prefer the saga car outlook, nicer than persona indeed imo
TSchuan30378
post May 4 2021, 11:55 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 4 2021, 05:32 PM)
If you want comfort for driver and passenger and drive quality that you would appreciate, go for Proton.

If you don't mind all only want a car with minimum running cost and Good resale value, go for Bezza.

Persona Vs Saga wise, if you can afford, Persona will be miles ahead in term of spaciousness, comfort and ride quality, even the body is much rigid than the other 2.
*
Thx bro the comment notworthy.gif
JoeK
post May 6 2021, 10:10 AM

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wait a bit for the persona facelift to launch then only decide.

usually if got leaks, it means that it will be launched soon
roybreaker
post May 6 2021, 08:25 PM

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Persona is the best but fugly...So, I would go for Saga instead.
TSchuan30378
post May 6 2021, 10:51 PM

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QUOTE(JoeK @ May 6 2021, 10:10 AM)
wait a bit for the persona facelift to launch then only decide.

usually if got leaks, it means that it will be launched soon
*
Ya, there is a leak saying new model of Persona coming soon whistling.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 6 2021, 10:52 PM

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QUOTE(roybreaker @ May 6 2021, 08:25 PM)
Persona is the best but fugly...So, I would go for Saga instead.
*
Y say so "fugly" ?
roybreaker
post May 6 2021, 10:58 PM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 6 2021, 10:52 PM)
Y say so "fugly" ?
*
Personally, whenever I look at the Persona, it reminds me of bloated frog. The reason they did such design is to give more space for rear passengers.
furrybun
post May 6 2021, 11:31 PM

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QUOTE(roybreaker @ May 6 2021, 10:58 PM)
Personally, whenever I look at the Persona, it reminds me of bloated frog. The reason they did such design is to give more space for rear passengers.
*
No, the reason the design ended up like this is due to it being based on the Iriz which is a hatchback with a rising beltline towards the rear. So, to extend a boot beyond the C pillar with a tall beltline, the boot needs to be tall.

Hence the disproportionately large butt.

This post has been edited by furrybun: May 6 2021, 11:34 PM
roybreaker
post May 6 2021, 11:53 PM

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QUOTE(furrybun @ May 6 2021, 11:31 PM)
No, the reason the design ended up like this is due to it being based on the Iriz which is a hatchback with a rising beltline towards the rear. So, to extend a boot beyond the C pillar with a tall beltline, the boot needs to be tall.

Hence the disproportionately large butt.
*
Yes, this makes more sense.
littlefire
post May 7 2021, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 4 2021, 06:32 PM)
If you want comfort for driver and passenger and drive quality that you would appreciate, go for Proton.

If you don't mind all only want a car with minimum running cost and Good resale value, go for Bezza.

Persona Vs Saga wise, if you can afford, Persona will be miles ahead in term of spaciousness, comfort and ride quality, even the body is much rigid than the other 2.
*
Until today many still brainwash by Proton salesman that Persona/Iriz chassis is more better compare to Perodua Myvi..Asean NCAP for latest Myvi tell it is the more safer compare to Iriz even for crash test..

2017 Myvi

https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=3870

OFFSET FRONTAL TEST 14.79
SIDE IMPACT TEST 15.91

Proton IRIZ

https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=3553

OFFSET FRONTAL TEST 14.07
SIDE IMPACT TEST PASS

By looking at the Offset frontal test, latest Myvi already beat Iriz..
There is no official Persona crash test, but since Persona is still an extended version of Iriz so the safety should be similar to Iriz

This post has been edited by littlefire: May 7 2021, 12:14 PM
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 12:59 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 7 2021, 11:21 AM)
Until today many still brainwash by Proton salesman that Persona/Iriz chassis is more better compare to Perodua Myvi..Asean NCAP for latest Myvi tell it is the more safer compare to Iriz even for crash test..

*
I want to do a proper reply, but I think I'll just assume you P2 fanboy, easier
littlefire
post May 7 2021, 02:32 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 01:59 PM)
I want to do a proper reply, but I think I'll just assume you P2 fanboy, easier
*
I look at facts from results like Asean NCAP. A lot manufacturer claim their chassis like very strong bla bla bla.. but when go for actual crash test.. doh.gif

Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 7 2021, 02:32 PM)
I look at facts from results like Asean NCAP. A lot manufacturer claim their chassis like very strong bla bla bla.. but when go for actual crash test..  doh.gif
*
Have you opened the links you sent and properly compared both cars?

Watch the videos within those links that are also publicly available on YouTube?

And if you're having an open mind, look up real world post crash car conditions on Iriz and Myvi.
The video alone is enough hint even when the Asean NCAP only crashes at 64kph.
The higher the crash, the better advantage and chances the Iriz will have.

And that's after you crash.
If you're still willing to have an open mind, go find a location with BOTH Proton and Perodua SC side by side (Taman Kok Lian tesco there is one) , check both Iriz Myvi same tires (should be Goodyear assistance triple Max 2) that's also same sizes.

Feel free to do emergency braking from 60 kph to 0 kph on both cars on same stretch of road.

Facts and opinions/bias are 2 very different things.

=Edit=
Asean NCAP tests at 64kph not 40kph that I wrongly mentioned

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 7 2021, 03:26 PM
littlefire
post May 7 2021, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 04:05 PM)
Have you opened the links you sent and properly compared both cars?

Watch the videos within those links that are also publicly available on YouTube?

And if you're having an open mind, look up real world post crash car conditions on Iriz and Myvi.
The video alone is enough hint even when the Asean NCAP only crashes at 64kph.
The higher the crash, the better advantage and chances the Iriz will have.

And that's after you crash.
If you're still willing to have an open mind, go find a location with BOTH Proton and Perodua SC side by side (Taman Kok Lian tesco there is one) , check both Iriz Myvi same tires (should be Goodyear assistance triple Max 2) that's also same sizes.

Feel free to do emergency braking from 60 kph to 0 kph on both cars on same stretch of road.

Facts and opinions/bias are 2 very different things.

=Edit=
Asean NCAP tests at 64kph not 40kph that I wrongly mentioned
*
So your logic is 64kph Iriz did worse but at higher speed it can do better? Should it be around that at lower speed it should score higher if it got better chassis? Better to understand how Asean NCAP result is done.

I think wapcar got a list of the top 26 safetest car tested by Asean NCAP done during 2020. I think only X70 is above Perodua Myvi from Proton side.

https://www.wapcar.my/news/top-rank-what-ar...asean-ncap-7451
leon898
post May 7 2021, 05:16 PM

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QUOTE(roybreaker @ May 6 2021, 10:58 PM)
Personally, whenever I look at the Persona, it reminds me of bloated frog. The reason they did such design is to give more space for rear passengers.
*
That is the curse if they use hatchback car as a basis....Honda city idsl, Mazda 2/fiesta also shared the same fate
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 05:51 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 7 2021, 05:04 PM)
So your logic is 64kph Iriz did worse but at higher speed it can do better? Should it be around that at lower speed it should score higher if it got better chassis? Better to understand how Asean NCAP result is done.
*
No.

I'm saying both scored differently based on different testing and scoring methods and even assuming both are same methods, the decimal point scored by both cars are negligible.

Yes I even purposely went to their website to download all the documents (hence I stand corrected on the collision speeds) to find out their test methods.

Pre 2017 standards (which the Iriz was tested on) are no longer available.
They are pushing 2021- 2025 standards already.

I still stand by my previous post.
And we have no way to properly score both cars unless Proton willing to donate and re test the Iriz
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 05:54 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 12:59 PM)
I want to do a proper reply, but I think I'll just assume you P2 fanboy, easier
*
I still stand by this as well.

At the end of the day BOTH cars are 5 stars even with different scoring.

Saying one car is better than the other one using NCAP when both are 5 stars is a very vain comparison, no?
constant_weight
post May 7 2021, 06:22 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 05:54 PM)
I still stand by this as well.

At the end of the day BOTH cars are 5 stars even with different scoring.

Saying one car is better than the other one using NCAP when both are 5 stars is a very vain comparison, no?
*
I have different opinions.

First frontal collision crash test from basic full frontal to the notorious 25% offset impact (not sure ANCAP has this), the car in particular the A pillar only need to support energy from its own weight. The lighter the car, the less strength the A pillar needs to be to be intact.

Second, we don't know which car designed just to meet the crash test requirement, and which car designed at higher standard since they are not tested at higher speed openly outside the manufacturer lab. So no way a car like Alza can be 4*, more like 1* since so many accidents involved Alza broken into half at B pillars.

Thus I think head on collision in the real world shows the true color. Call me bias, base on my guts and gamble, Iriz would survive better in Iris vs Myvi head on collision.

Another reason, which in this point I do agree with you that don't distracted by the decimals. Because the test is influenced by many things that have nothing to do with my own safety. For example pedestrian protection with soft bumper cover and hood. Half of the driver assist tests are at low speed not to hit the pedestrian and bikers.

Call me selfish, those are less important than how my family and I survive a crash. What I get is merely reduce my repair cost in low speed bump.

Lastly not to forget some agencies like US IIHS, and new China C-IASI "non-profit organization" are funded by insurance companies. The purpose is risk assessment for the insurance plan, thus the tests include slow 5mph accident repair cost, and again how likely you gotta kill someone because those are big money. So be extra caution when referencing result from those agencies.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 7 2021, 06:27 PM
zero5177
post May 7 2021, 06:27 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 7 2021, 11:21 AM)
Until today many still brainwash by Proton salesman that Persona/Iriz chassis is more better compare to Perodua Myvi..Asean NCAP for latest Myvi tell it is the more safer compare to Iriz even for crash test..

2017 Myvi

https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=3870

OFFSET FRONTAL TEST 14.79
SIDE IMPACT TEST 15.91

Proton IRIZ

https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=3553

OFFSET FRONTAL TEST 14.07
SIDE IMPACT TEST PASS

By looking at the Offset frontal test, latest Myvi already beat Iriz..
There is no official Persona crash test, but since Persona is still an extended version of Iriz so the safety should be similar to Iriz
*
I'm talking about Rigidity, both car scores a good 5 star in aseancap with negligible differences in score, but the Persona chassis consist of HPF steel which is much rigid at 1,500 MPa about 3 times sturdier compared to Myvi's high tensile steel of just around 590MPa? You may argue slightly more in aseancap score is still more, but for accident that went beyond aseancap measures, harder frame in general will be better (Or else we will be seeing manufacturer reduce their chassis strength to 590Mpa at highest and makes Perodua Myvi the safest car)

Plus that still doesn't change the fact that a sturdy chassis makes a better handling car, which also translates to easier maneuverability so you doesn't need to rely too much on active safety feature, although it is not measurable in paper, but u can't deny that Persona drives better than the Myvi.
TSchuan30378
post May 7 2021, 11:18 PM

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QUOTE(roybreaker @ May 6 2021, 10:58 PM)
Personally, whenever I look at the Persona, it reminds me of bloated frog. The reason they did such design is to give more space for rear passengers.
*
rclxm9.gif rclxm9.gif rclxm9.gif haha, i also like the Saga booty than the persona
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 11:33 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 7 2021, 06:22 PM)
I have different opinions.

First frontal collision crash test from basic full frontal to the notorious 25% offset impact (not sure ANCAP has this), the car in particular the A pillar only need to support energy from its own weight. The lighter the car, the less strength the A pillar needs to be to be intact.

Second, we don't know which car designed just to meet the crash test requirement, and which car designed at higher standard since they are not tested at higher speed openly outside the manufacturer lab. So no way a car like Alza can be 4*, more like 1* since so many accidents involved Alza broken into half at B pillars.

Thus I think head on collision in the real world shows the true color. Call me bias, base on my guts and gamble, Iriz would survive better in Iris vs Myvi head on collision.

Another reason, which in this point I do agree with you that don't distracted by the decimals. Because the test is influenced by many things that have nothing to do with my own safety. For example pedestrian protection with soft bumper cover and hood. Half of the driver assist tests are at low speed not to hit the pedestrian and bikers.

Call me selfish, those are less important than how my family and I survive a crash. What I get is merely reduce my repair cost in low speed bump.
*
I believe we have similar opinions that in the end we are conveying a similar/same message - that safety is indeed a priority in the new Proton cars. With perhaps you able to convey that message better than i did, or maybe from a different perspective to cover from another angle.

to answer on your doubts:
- ANCAP i think no full frontal, only 40% offset. so you can't exactly test the Iriz a pillar strong point either lol (which both cars are fairly unharmed)
- there's documentations (on ANCAP site) on that for donor /test car legitimacy but eh i would rather leave that variable out to save a headache
- my post was worded and structured as such because i do not have other solid objective numbers besides what was pointed out on ANCAP which is the initial trigger on this discussion. However i am calling that out because it simply does not make sense (at least to me) to call a car safe (or otherwise) over another car when both of them score about the same points, both at 5 stars, despite being tested on 2 different standards (2014 vs 2017 -2020, which hopefully both cars go through the new 2021-2025 standards)

going back to my post, i did urged him 2 major things:
1) look out for real world post crash aftermath between Iriz and Myvi
a key take away: one is a year 2014 car another is 2017, shouldn't the 2017 be better and safer?
2) do braking test on the 2 cars. littlefire focused on crash worthiness, however i took a step ahead and put out a point - why not prevent the crash altogether? i am a firm believer the Iriz will fare a MUCH HIGHER chance in crash prevention with far superior brakes and dampers. even both on the SAME EXACT tires same exact brand model size.

and of course being open minded but who am i kidding over an internet forum lol!
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 11:37 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 7 2021, 06:27 PM)
although it is not measurable in paper, but u can't deny that Persona drives better than the Myvi.
*
CAN!
just people shy to do it!

braking 100- 0
braking 60-0
slalom test (or moose test? LOL!)
dry lap times test
wet lap times test

you can measure and attach a number on all 5 tests above.

the better performing car WILL be better at preventing an accident occurring in the first place!
constant_weight
post May 8 2021, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 11:37 PM)
CAN!
just people shy to do it!

braking 100- 0
braking 60-0
slalom test (or moose test? LOL!)
dry lap times test
wet lap times test

you can measure and attach a number on all 5 tests above.

the better performing car WILL be better at preventing an accident occurring in the first place!
*
Yes, safety measures should be driver -> pure mechanical grip -> handling -> active safety -> passive safety.

I think moose test is a good test on ability to mitigate danger by a conventional driver. It mainly tests the pure mechanical grip and ESC/ESP program. So take your track experience hat off for a while, when in danger normal driver more likely just flick the steering by instinct without braking, or brake all the way but not turning enough. There will not be controlled braking to initiate weight transfer and turn.

constant_weight
post May 8 2021, 08:50 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 11:33 PM)
2) do braking test on the 2 cars. littlefire focused on crash worthiness, however i took a step ahead and put out a point - why not prevent the crash altogether? i am a firm believer the Iriz will fare a MUCH HIGHER chance in crash prevention with far superior brakes and dampers. even both on the SAME EXACT tires same exact brand model size.

and of course being open minded but who am i kidding over an internet forum lol!
*
I think focus on crash worthiness is not an issue. The issue is obsessed with the numbers, splitting the hair. First as you said, different standards/versions. Second, something that I keep telling people around me, there are cars made just to pass the test, and car made with safety in mind from various aspects not just the crash test.

This can be observed when the standards are revised, some car passing new one just fine. Some need minor touch. Some will not be 5* until a whole new generation with new platform.

Then weight plays important factor. Heavier cars need to support more weights in the crash, will always be stronger. In the real world is not everyone take turns to hit a wall, right? LOL

Lastly take it as a pinch of salt when looking at the aggregated score and number of stars. That is influenced by tests I mentioned in earlier post and are not related to my own safety.

This is where our differences are. I'm not being objective, do not have numbers. I just genuinely believe P2 are not as safe as P1 and other city car like Kia Rio, Suzuki Swift etc, the worst being Alza. P2 is best keep for city use, 40-60km/h.

Honda BR-V, Toyota Sienta, I did not check the safety data, but not something I would like to be in for highway long distance travel base on the limited time I spent in Grab. The ride felt like Alza, not stable.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 8 2021, 09:01 AM
Quazacolt
post May 8 2021, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 8 2021, 08:50 AM)
Suzuki Swift etc, the worst being Alza. P2 is best keep for city use, 40-60km/h.
*
Yeah agreed.

Btw Swift here would score poorly overall cuz no ESC tongue.gif
And new one (so far only sport) seems like a dead on arrival, somemore only auto wtf laugh.gif

But eh you see how many heroes are with their P2, I'd probably just attribute it to more popular more owner of the car, more rotten eggs lol

Like how God car used to be (if you've been around LYN years back)
ru40342
post May 8 2021, 01:45 PM

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I have both myvi 2nd gen and latest proton saga at home. I drive both regularly.

If I were in a dangerous situation, I would much rather be in the proton saga. It handles better so I might be able to avoid collision and it drives better so I have more confidence to maneuver the car to avoid the collision. If I really couldn't avoid collision, I don't think saga would be worse off compared to myvi.
Najmods
post May 8 2021, 09:14 PM

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I'm in the same situation as yours, I'm taking Saga mostly because of the looks. Persona looks very weird, Bezza too (one looks like lipas the other one tonggek) because both of them are extended version of the hatchback (Iriz and Axia respectively). I just can't think of buying something so ugly to my eyes. Saga is the cheapest of the bunch and ticks most of what I wanted (normal auto box, not too much electronics like stop-start, start button etc)
TSchuan30378
post May 8 2021, 11:02 PM

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QUOTE(ru40342 @ May 8 2021, 01:45 PM)
I have both myvi 2nd gen and latest proton saga at home. I drive both regularly.

If I were in a dangerous situation, I would much rather be in the proton saga. It handles better so I might be able to avoid collision and it drives better so I have more confidence to maneuver the car to avoid the collision. If I really couldn't avoid collision, I don't think saga would be worse off compared to myvi.
*
Thx for the comment rclxms.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 8 2021, 11:03 PM

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QUOTE(Najmods @ May 8 2021, 09:14 PM)
I'm in the same situation as yours, I'm taking Saga mostly because of the looks. Persona looks very weird, Bezza too (one looks like lipas the other one tonggek) because both of them are extended version of the hatchback (Iriz and Axia respectively). I just can't think of buying something so ugly to my eyes. Saga is the cheapest of the bunch and ticks most of what I wanted (normal auto box, not too much electronics like stop-start, start button etc)
*
Haha, lipas look ??? Tonggek wats is it? lizard ? biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
zero5177
post May 8 2021, 11:12 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 8 2021, 12:05 PM)
Yeah agreed.

Btw Swift here would score poorly overall cuz no ESC tongue.gif
And new one (so far only sport) seems like a dead on arrival, somemore only auto wtf laugh.gif

But eh you see how many heroes are with their P2, I'd probably just attribute it to more popular more owner of the car, more rotten eggs lol

Like how God car used to be (if you've been around LYN years back)
*
Off topic sikit, how do you think of the current Yaris? Don't find much data on current Vios & Asia Yaris body structure,
just found mention of more High tensile steel usage (50% current vs 30% previous) and saw some reviews here and there stating the chassis felt more rigid even from Dares hmm.gif can I assume High tensile steel usage = to somewhere 500-ish MPa max?
Quazacolt
post May 9 2021, 12:55 AM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 8 2021, 11:12 PM)
Off topic sikit, how do you think of the current Yaris? Don't find much data on current Vios & Asia Yaris body structure,
just found mention of more High tensile steel usage (50% current vs 30% previous) and saw some reviews here and there stating the chassis felt more rigid even from Dares  hmm.gif can I assume High tensile steel usage = to somewhere 500-ish MPa max?
*
Sorry I didn't really dig info on the chassis stiffness.

I did test driven it and only pushed a little until the SA protesting some very brief/minor tire music sad.gif

It's dampers are definitely on the softer side, road deformations are more plush compared to the Persona/Iriz.

However the drawback is performance/road holding especially if you need faster directional changes. Low speed compressions I think not too much difference especially on long sweepers, however I wasn't able to test the Yaris on higher >100kph speeds to properly compared it against the Persona so I could be very wrong.

Bear in mind both Yaris and Proton Iriz/Persona dampers are straightforward/simple dampers on a budget. So it's really a give and take how much comfort vs performance. Gain some lose some.

Then there's the odd ball Myvi dampers that's made out of paper or something. Until non car person like my sister asking me if the suspensions Kong. (On a new ish show room test car lol! laugh.gif)

She gotten the Persona in the end because she couldn't justify the 20-30k RM to go for a Toyota badge.
The 360 camera is indeed cool, but is it worth 30k cool? Probably not.
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post May 9 2021, 06:54 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 8 2021, 11:03 PM)
Haha, lipas look ??? Tonggek wats is it? lizard ?  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif
*
Its just the proprtion of the car looks weird, Bezza looks too high from behind with skinny tires especially with the new facelift. Persona too, looks like a fish or cockroach from behind laugh.gif
zero5177
post May 9 2021, 06:04 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 9 2021, 12:55 AM)
Sorry I didn't really dig info on the chassis stiffness.

I did test driven it and only pushed a little until the SA protesting some very brief/minor tire music sad.gif

It's dampers are definitely on the softer side, road deformations are more plush compared to the Persona/Iriz.

However the drawback is performance/road holding especially if you need faster directional changes. Low speed compressions I think not too much difference especially on long sweepers, however I wasn't able to test the Yaris on higher >100kph speeds to properly compared it against the Persona so I could be very wrong.

Bear in mind both Yaris and Proton Iriz/Persona dampers are straightforward/simple dampers on a budget. So it's really a give and take how much comfort vs performance. Gain some lose some.

Then there's the odd ball Myvi dampers that's made out of paper or something. Until non car person like my sister asking me if the suspensions Kong. (On a new ish show room test car lol! laugh.gif)

She gotten the Persona in the end because she couldn't justify the 20-30k RM to go for a Toyota badge.
The 360 camera is indeed cool, but is it worth 30k cool? Probably not.
*
Thanks for your opinion especially on the drive, I still did not get to test drive 1, only few thing that made me lean towards Yaris is because:-
1. I already own a Persona
2. Initially booked for X50 but doesn't seems to be able to arrive anytime soon (waited 6 months)
3. Yaris have Blind spot monitor, 360 cam, forward collision warning & assist and the Android auto/carplay ready and I also find it convenient that it has Eco Tint + Dashcam preinstalled which is pretty convenient.
4. Looking for a decent hatchback.

Still some drawbacks from taking Yaris IMO:-
1. Not known for structure rigidity due to really old platform, not TNGA based.
2. Underperforming engine output for current generation & the money spent.
3. No auto cruise & autonomous assist.
4. Fabric seat.
5. Rather small interior and bootspace practically not as good for a hatch (folded seat is not flat, there is obvious bump from the boot to seat area).

Speaking of headroom, no car in this segment can trump Iriz and Persona no matter you sat in front or at the back, this is the headroom that put even many C-segment to shame.


dogbert_chew
post May 9 2021, 06:31 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 9 2021, 06:04 PM)
still did not get to test drive 1,

1. I already own a Persona
2. Initially booked for X50
4. Looking for a decent hatchback.

Still some drawbacks from taking Yaris IMO:-
1.  not TNGA based.
2. Underperforming engine output
3. No auto cruise & autonomous assist.
4. Fabric seat.
5. Rather small interior and bootspace practically not as good for a hatch (folded seat is not flat, there is obvious bump from the boot to seat area).

*
Would like to read your opinion on the Ativa as an alternative to Yaris, Cheers
zero5177
post May 9 2021, 08:05 PM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ May 9 2021, 06:31 PM)
Would like to read your opinion on the Ativa as an alternative to Yaris, Cheers
*
I tried the Ativa even made booking at launch, but in the end I cancelled the option due to:-

1. Uncomfortable backseat, lack of support, quite upright and very short thigh support.
2. No 360 camera.
3. Not a fan of that engine, Driven Axia before the FC wasn't impressive (Just about 2-3km/l better than Persona MT), I doubt the addition of Turbo on the single VVT will hv convincing FC since the engine is very closely related to Axia's
4. No Android Auto/Carplay.
5. Smaller interior than expected.
6. Not really favor the design & especially the front grill and the lack of DRL (Body kit is too ugly for me).
7. Mediocre sound system.

Not much opinion on the drive since it was a very brief drive, it was ok-ish for me in general, no wow factor for me.

Not meant to bash any Ativa taker, just that it is not up to my expectation, even the X50 have a few flaws for me especially when compared to China's variant sad.gif
constant_weight
post May 9 2021, 10:33 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 9 2021, 06:04 PM)
3. No auto cruise & autonomous assist.

*
If you really into ACC and driver assist, test drive the following

1) Volvo Pilot Assist, available on all Volvo models
2) Toyota RAV4 (only this one comes with TSS 2.0 in Malaysia)
3) BMW Personal Copilot, I think only 7 series come with it as standard
4) Hyundai Ionic, or the Smart Cruise Control on new 160K Elantra that everyone said expensive.
5) any Tesla

Those are the known models with smooth and natural ACC, so that you get a benchmark. I uses Pilot Assist on regular basics and swear by it.

Then try the ACC in the models you interested, you will find not all ACC are created equally. Most are not smooth, some are downright hard braking and accelerating all the time like a maniac. Some are difficult to use like Honda case, ACC and LDW are separate add-hoc features, while the good system is simply one button enablement.

Anyway things are continue to improve, those are software algorithms, like Toyota TSS 2.0 on RAV4 vs TSS 1.1 on other models with DRCC, huge improvement.

2-3 years ago, Hyundai/Kia/Genesis, Tesla, and Volvo are crowned the best driver assist systems, now everybody else are catching up. So this is something you can only tell in test drive, since most car reviewers simply read the spec sheet, turn on one time to show on the video without reviewing the ACC quality.

So good luck, share with us if you found other good ACC in your test drive.

P/S: I read Taiwanese review, the new champion is Ford, which it will loosely maintain over bigger range of distance, then release throttle and glide, only brake when necessary just like an experienced human driver. Not only smooth, but save fuel and the brake pad as well. Yes, normally if you use ACC frequently, brake pads will wear faster.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 9 2021, 10:43 PM
Quazacolt
post May 10 2021, 02:00 AM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 9 2021, 06:04 PM)
lean towards Yaris is because:-
1. I already own a Persona
2. Initially booked for X50 but doesn't seems to be able to arrive anytime soon (waited 6 months)
3. Yaris have Blind spot monitor, 360 cam, forward collision warning & assist and the Android auto/carplay ready and I also find it convenient that it has Eco Tint + Dashcam preinstalled which is pretty convenient.
4. Looking for a decent hatchback.

Speaking of headroom, no car in this segment can trump Iriz and Persona no matter you sat in front or at the back, this is the headroom that put even many C-segment to shame.
*
hmm you went for Ativa, X50, but looked at the Yaris?
which segment/category you actually want/need?
need family space or driving experience being a priority?
SUV Sedan hatchbacks are 3 very different things wei lol.

i didn't know of the last bit though... maybe that's how those 2 cars ended up tall and looked... "boxy" or other funny names given lol.
littlefire
post May 10 2021, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 7 2021, 07:27 PM)
I'm talking about Rigidity, both car scores a good 5 star in aseancap with negligible differences in score, but the Persona chassis consist of HPF steel which is much rigid at 1,500 MPa about 3 times sturdier compared to Myvi's high tensile steel of just around 590MPa? You may argue slightly more in aseancap score is still more, but for accident that went beyond aseancap measures, harder frame in general will be better (Or else we will be seeing manufacturer reduce their chassis strength to 590Mpa at highest and makes Perodua Myvi the safest car)

Plus that still doesn't change the fact that a sturdy chassis makes a better handling car, which also translates to easier maneuverability so you doesn't need to rely too much on active safety feature, although it is not measurable in paper, but u can't deny that Persona drives better than the Myvi.
*
That why i mention before that not all high strength steel claim will provide better safety. In automotive engineering they are a lot of safety design that help to achieve crash test like designing crumple zone and fusion of different material & design in their chassis. With high strength steel but without good design & proper R&D it does more harm than good.

Easy explanation, if old cars were made of stronger metal why less safe nowadays?

https://www.quora.com/If-old-cars-were-made...han-modern-cars

There are a lot of engineering efforts to meet the safety standard at a budget cost and if you ask me Perodua really did better as they manage to get it with the use of lower cost & strength steel (Compare to Proton Iriz/Persona). Even nowadays a lot of sport car & luxury even using aluminum fusion chassis which is even less rigid but with smart engineering those manufacturer can still achieve 5 star safety rating.



Quazacolt
post May 10 2021, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 10 2021, 10:34 AM)
Easy explanation, if old cars were made of stronger metal why less safe nowadays?
*
Please don't confuse between chassis structural integrity and crumple zones

Using a quora link you googled with only few minutes is kinda pulling down your credibility, maybe a wiki page or something more official would be better
(Ask Perodua to do some marketing on their budget steel perhaps?)
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post May 10 2021, 11:31 AM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 9 2021, 10:33 PM)
If you really into ACC and driver assist, test drive the following

1) Volvo Pilot Assist, available on all Volvo models
2) Toyota RAV4 (only this one comes with TSS 2.0 in Malaysia)
3) BMW Personal Copilot, I think only 7 series come with it as standard
4) Hyundai Ionic, or the Smart Cruise Control on new 160K Elantra that everyone said expensive.
5) any Tesla

Those are the known models with smooth and natural ACC, so that you get a benchmark. I uses Pilot Assist on regular basics and swear by it.

Then try the ACC in the models you interested, you will find not all ACC are created equally. Most are not smooth, some are downright hard braking and accelerating all the time like a maniac. Some are difficult to use like Honda case, ACC and LDW are separate add-hoc features, while the good system is simply one button enablement.

Anyway things are continue to improve, those are software algorithms, like Toyota TSS 2.0 on RAV4 vs TSS 1.1 on other models with DRCC, huge improvement.

2-3 years ago, Hyundai/Kia/Genesis, Tesla, and Volvo are crowned the best driver assist systems, now everybody else are catching up. So this is something you can only tell in test drive, since most car reviewers simply read the spec sheet, turn on one time to show on the video without reviewing the ACC quality.

So good luck, share with us if you found other good ACC in your test drive.

P/S: I read Taiwanese review, the new champion is Ford, which it will loosely maintain over bigger range of distance, then release throttle and glide, only brake when necessary just like an experienced human driver. Not only smooth, but save fuel and the brake pad as well. Yes, normally if you use ACC frequently, brake pads will wear faster.
*
Ya... this is something I'm looking into as well. But there is just so few info about this.
On another note, Activa and X50 support driver assist as well
littlefire
post May 10 2021, 12:19 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 10 2021, 12:21 PM)
Please don't confuse between chassis structural integrity and crumple zones

Using a quora link you googled with only few minutes is kinda pulling down your credibility, maybe a wiki page or something more official would be better
(Ask Perodua to do some marketing on their budget steel perhaps?)
*
Well, wiki page is also open source for any edit/modify, so it is not 100% credible also.
This open to people to go do their own research to decide which is good or bad.

Quazacolt
post May 10 2021, 12:21 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 10 2021, 12:19 PM)
Well, wiki page is also open source for any edit/modify, so it is not 100% credible also.
This open to people to go do their own research to decide which is good or bad.
*
I agree. So long we keep an open mind and willing to learn, all is well thumbup.gif
constant_weight
post May 10 2021, 12:46 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 10 2021, 10:34 AM)
Easy explanation, if old cars were made of stronger metal why less safe nowadays? Wrong 1

https://www.quora.com/If-old-cars-were-made...han-modern-cars

There are a lot of engineering efforts to meet the safety standard at a budget cost and if you ask me Perodua really did better as they manage to get it with the use of lower cost & strength steel (Compare to Proton Iriz/Persona). Wrong 2

Even nowadays a lot of sport car & luxury even using aluminum fusion chassis which is even less rigid but with smart engineering those manufacturer can still achieve 5 star safety rating. Wrong 3
*
1) First to echo Quazacolt, do not confused crumple zone with core chassis integrity. Low speed bump repair do not represent how well a car will do in high speed crash.
- Old car was not made stronger. If you talking about old 240GL or 850 Volvo, the cars at that era have exposed bumper. In low speed accident, of course that will damage form/plastic bumper cover in modern car.
- All Modern cars still have that rigid bumper in the front + bumper cover which normal people call as bumper + empty space/foam between bumper and bumper cover.
- Then on the rear, continentals and Koreans have rear bumper inside the rear bumper cover.
- Japanese is the one inconsistent, some models have it, some don't and different from country to county. Perodua seems to hollow as well from the accident photos.
- Bumper cover serve to protect pedestrian and aerodynamic.
- Modern car rear end old car, sure modern car looks worse due to pedestrian protection.
- Any car rear end a modern car without rear bumper (hollow/foam bumper cover), the modern car sure looks worse as well. The rear bumper is to reduce your repair cost, is not the required structure in high speed accident.

2) Read the fine print on the crash test report. A lot of tests are not related to chassis strength. You can't cheat physics, can't beat raw material strength.
- Remember in real world accident is not everyone take turn to hit the wall.
- In the front collision test, the test vehicle only need to support its own weigh for A pillar to stays intact.
- Try put 500kg at Perodua trunk, and repeat the crash test, see what happens.
- 1.5 tonnes, it about the average for D segments. Executive cars are about 1.8 tonnes.
- Think when the chain accident and you stuck in the middle.
- Hyundai Elantra can support 8x its own chassis weight, import structures are Advanced High Strength Steel up to 1500MPa. Mazda/Nissan working to mass produce 2000 MPa+ without needing to hot press form.
- No need accident with 4x4, or big exec cars, just squeeze between 2 Hyundai.

3) You can not over generalize like this. Material strength is not about rigidity only. Tensile strength, compression strength, brittleness, abrasion, predictability when it deforms etc. Aluminum can made over 500 MPa, and is 2.5 lighter than steel. So Aluminum maybe heavier at some area like A, B pillars than need 1500+ MPa due to needing thicker structure to achieve same strength as Steel, but it is lighter elsewhere in the area like hood, door shell which typically made will 300-400 MPa soft mil steel. So it can be lighter overall, and as strong as steel car even for full Aluminum chassis. It is misconception to assume Aluminum vehicle must be less rigid.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 10 2021, 12:47 PM
Quazacolt
post May 10 2021, 02:05 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 10 2021, 12:46 PM)
2) Read the fine print on the crash test report. A lot of tests are not related to chassis strength. You can't cheat physics, can't beat raw material strength.
- Remember in real world accident is not everyone take turn to hit the wall.

3) You can not over generalize like this. Material strength is not about rigidity only. Tensile strength, compression strength, brittleness, abrasion, predictability when it deforms etc.

It is misconception to assume Aluminum vehicle must be less rigid.
*
I personally wouldn't discredit ANCAP, as it is a certification body similar to API when it comes to automotive lubricants and my take with them are similar if not same - you're able to verify certifications publicly, vs he say she say.

That itself changed our local automotive industry dramatically as cars are much safer having ANCAP around where manufacturers try to (whether just for the sake of scoring or genuinely for customer safety) score higher stars on their vehicles. (A selling point!)
Remember the dark ages where ABS was an option, and ESP are non existent. sad.gif



Spot on on the aluminum part and I want to highlight /shout out lotus full Aluminum chassis/space frame or the legendary Honda NSX

I don't think anyone in the know would say these cars are not rigid and not crash worthy tongue.gif
constant_weight
post May 10 2021, 02:41 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 10 2021, 02:05 PM)
I personally wouldn't discredit ANCAP, as it is a certification body similar to API when it comes to automotive lubricants and my take with them are similar if not same - you're able to verify certifications publicly, vs he say she say.

*
Agree. I'm not discredit them, and it is a great departure from where we were.

I just wanted to point out 2 cars can ace in different areas, and both ended up as 5*. So read the fine print is the key, and no deny that I'm being selfish.

If on limited budget, I will get a 4* car anytime that show all green in passengers/child evaluation, but red on pedestrian protection vs a 5* car that show couple yellow/orange (impossible to be red otherwise won't be 5*) region to passengers + very good pedestrian head impact protection.

Of course if have good budget, by all means get one that ace every single test.
zero5177
post May 10 2021, 07:21 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 10 2021, 02:00 AM)
hmm you went for Ativa, X50, but looked at the Yaris?
which segment/category you actually want/need?
need family space or driving experience being a priority?
SUV Sedan hatchbacks are 3 very different things wei lol.

i didn't know of the last bit though... maybe that's how those 2 cars ended up tall and looked... "boxy" or other funny names given lol.
*
BTW sorry for hijacking this thread blush.gif

It's complicated, I would say I'm looking for budget 100k below hatchback with decent safety & future proof feature.
I'm fine for a decent hatchback or top up sikit for SUV Since I already have sedan.

It ended with Yaris because it offers mixture of X50 fancy feature like 360/Blindspot monitor and Extras of some other feature I want that X50 doesn't offer like Android Auto/Car play out of the box, plus seeing some decent mention of Yaris being reasonably fun car to drive.

City Hatchback could be one of my option to consider too, but it wasn't available yet, so can't say anything about it.

Now looking at the SST rebate of just less than 2k from Yaris, maybe I shouldn't be rushing too much to get a car so soon, I might consider just sit back and wait for other new model to release tongue.gif
Quazacolt
post May 10 2021, 07:28 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 10 2021, 07:21 PM)
BTW sorry for hijacking this thread  blush.gif

It's complicated, I would say I'm looking for budget 100k below hatchback with decent safety & future proof feature.
I'm fine for a decent hatchback or top up sikit for SUV Since I already have sedan.

It ended with Yaris because it offers mixture of X50 fancy feature like 360/Blindspot monitor and Extras of some other feature I want that X50 doesn't offer like Android Auto/Car play out of the box, plus seeing some decent mention of  Yaris being reasonably fun car to drive.

City Hatchback could be one of my option to consider too, but it wasn't available yet, so can't say anything about it.

Now looking at the SST rebate of just less than 2k from Yaris, maybe I shouldn't be rushing too much to get a car so soon, I might consider just sit back and wait for other new model to release  tongue.gif
*
sub 100k brand new? i'd say very damn hard near impossible to top your Persona manual.
Maybe Iriz Manual but no longer have 1.6 Manual on Geely facelift.

Rio? but no one mentioned anything about handling and i've never personally tested it. Naza also leaves a lot of question mark of late

Yaris... even if you revise the suspensions for extra stiffness performance oriented, the torque converter CVT still leaves a lot to be desired.
Honestly i prefer the Geely facelift clutch based CVT lol. since i'm very used to manual cars, clutch based CVT is rather natural to me.

so yes, i do agree, fuck the SST rebate, just wait for something suitable.
zero5177
post May 10 2021, 08:36 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 10 2021, 07:28 PM)


Yaris... even if you revise the suspensions for extra stiffness performance oriented, the torque converter CVT still leaves a lot to be desired.
Honestly i prefer the Geely facelift clutch based CVT lol. since i'm very used to manual cars, clutch based CVT is rather natural to me.

*
I have no idea why media and public praises 4AT like it's the future,
the gear hunting and downshifting behavior is very frustrating to me.

I've driven 1st Gen Iriz before for a month, the jerk is not as exaggerated like how to public/media perceived, the Geely version should be much more refined now. And in my opinion I am more willing to accept the jerk of a CVT rather than having a slow responding & constant gear hunting behavior of a 4AT. Maybe also because I'm a MT driver.

Yaris CVT i'm not sure, I can't even find any info on the CVT maker/model lol, only know it's a Torque Converter based CVT.
Quazacolt
post May 10 2021, 09:17 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 10 2021, 08:36 PM)
I have no idea why media and public praises 4AT like it's the future,
the gear hunting and downshifting behavior is very frustrating to me.

Yaris CVT i'm not sure, I can't even find any info on the CVT maker/model lol, only know it's a Torque Converter based CVT.
*
our public/mainstream tend to love "one step forward 2 steps back" laugh.gif

Toyota sub company is Aisin, so almost all the time, they just source a transmission from them and yeah it is a mainstream run of the mill Aisin CVT... looks like this guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_K_CVT_...smission#K411_2

no obvious rubber banding, but its just... a bit disconnected lol.
zero5177
post May 10 2021, 11:20 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 10 2021, 10:34 AM)
That why i mention before that not all high strength steel claim will provide better safety. In automotive engineering they are a lot of safety design that help to achieve crash test like designing crumple zone and fusion of different material & design in their chassis. With high strength steel but without good design & proper R&D it does more harm than good.

Easy explanation, if old cars were made of stronger metal why less safe nowadays?

https://www.quora.com/If-old-cars-were-made...han-modern-cars

There are a lot of engineering efforts to meet the safety standard at a budget cost and if you ask me Perodua really did better as they manage to get it with the use of lower cost & strength steel (Compare to Proton Iriz/Persona). Even nowadays a lot of sport car & luxury even using aluminum fusion chassis which is even less rigid but with smart engineering those manufacturer can still achieve 5 star safety rating.
*
user posted image

The Proton HPF is not applied to the entire car, only on the key area acting as the last line of defense before reaching the driver.
There is also a crumple zone that you speak of engineered in Proton chasis.

You may still argue that the decimal score from ASEANCAP is higher than Iriz, But any other form of accident that is out of the ASEANCAP who cover that?

Proton Iriz/Persona 2016 has proven to convincingly protected the occupant in most of the case, remember an incident of Iriz saved a pilot from fallen tree? Try search around how many fallen tree on Iriz/Persona resulting driver sustaining severe injury that need to be hospitalized? I don't find any, is that a coincidence? But I can find many other cars that failed to save the driver from getting severe injury or death from fallen trees including the new Perodua Myvi

Also remember another recent case where the falling object from NKVE crushed the Bezza driver's leg? You may argue that if it was an Iriz, the driver might suffered the same fate, but too bad we don't have an equal case to benchmark here, but maybe the outcome might be different due to the adoption of HPF

Not all accident are made equal, asean ncap is a good indicator to simulate how well a car handle selected collision, but there are still many area that is not put to test as well

Both new Myvi and Iriz/Persona are equally safe car in Aseancap, but in reality there are many accident that is out of asean ncap coverage, and in most of the reported case, the newer Proton is doing a pretty good job in protecting the occupants, and of course I am not saying Iriz is the safest car in the world that can beat even a tank, but in my observation, chassis rigidity plays an important role in protecting the occupancy and at the same time makes a better handling car.
littlefire
post May 11 2021, 10:14 AM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 10 2021, 01:46 PM)


2) Read the fine print on the crash test report. A lot of tests are not related to chassis strength. You can't cheat physics, can't beat raw material strength.
- Remember in real world accident is not everyone take turn to hit the wall.
- In the front collision test, the test vehicle only need to support its own weigh for A pillar to stays intact.
- Try put 500kg at Perodua trunk, and repeat the crash test, see what happens.
- 1.5 tonnes, it about the average for D segments. Executive cars are about 1.8 tonnes.
- Think when the chain accident and you stuck in the middle.
- Hyundai Elantra can support 8x its own chassis weight, import structures are Advanced High Strength Steel up to 1500MPa. Mazda/Nissan working to mass produce 2000 MPa+ without needing to hot press form.
- No need accident with 4x4, or big exec cars, just squeeze between 2 Hyundai.

*
Smaller car with smart engineering can also be safe.
BTW, Another small car safety rating Smart For Two for your research.
amscouzach57
post May 11 2021, 10:54 AM

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So at the end, which car TS has chosen? Or still undecided?
constant_weight
post May 11 2021, 06:21 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 11 2021, 10:14 AM)
Smaller car with smart engineering can also be safe.
BTW, Another small car safety rating Smart For Two for your research.
*
Don't switch attention and talk about other cars.

Educate me what smart engineering P2 put into to make the car as safe as other cars?

1) Ativa strongest to date only 980MPa on A pillar, older models Myvi/Bezza have 590MPa which is the the minimal to call HSS.

2) I follow you don't talk about bigger car. Proton have UHSS at 1500MPa. Hyundai AHSS 1500MPa + 50% of the body structure are HSS.

Now teach me what Perodua do magically to have the 590MPa/980MPa to be as safe as the 1500MPa? 20+% use of HSS safer than 50+% use of HSS? When in the oh worst case squeeze between 2 lorries.

littlefire
post May 11 2021, 06:52 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 11 2021, 07:21 PM)
Don't switch attention and talk about other cars.

Educate me what smart engineering P2 put into to make the car as safe as other cars?

1) Ativa strongest to date only 980MPa on A pillar, older models Myvi/Bezza have 590MPa which is the the minimal to call HSS.

2) I follow you don't talk about bigger car. Proton have UHSS at 1500MPa. Hyundai AHSS 1500MPa + 50% of the body structure are HSS.

Now teach me what Perodua do magically to have the 590MPa/980MPa to be as safe as the 1500MPa? 20+% use of HSS safer than 50+% use of HSS? When in the oh worst case squeeze between 2 lorries.
*
Not sure if your just here, but in previous post i already mention that with proper crumple zone design & use of different material in chassis even with lower steel strength you can also achieve good safety results. latest gen Perodua Myvi already proof it in Asean NCAP.

You can argue that other car with higher metal strength can be better, but conclusion Myvi manage to meet it and did better results. BTW we are comparing smaller car category here.

It is open to anyone for discussion, if you think high tensile steel is good then go buy Proton or Hyundai. No one forcing you to choose Myvi, just as per what i mention early i base on Asean NCAP report and the data shown latest gen Myvi did better and the only safer car option now from Proton is X70. These are facts from around the net & Asean NCAP.

This post has been edited by littlefire: May 11 2021, 07:10 PM
clockpulses
post May 11 2021, 07:20 PM

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I don't trust Asean NCAP really. Bezza get same score as Preve. Hard to believe

This post has been edited by clockpulses: May 11 2021, 07:20 PM
Takudan
post May 11 2021, 08:15 PM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 3 2021, 10:54 PM)
Hi Forumers,

Just request u all give any opinion or comment for above 3 models car, which one worth to buy ? Recently user are most welcome to give the comment, thank you very much !! thumbup.gif
*
Hi there, allow me to paste my wall of text in another similar thread:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Oh adding on... I have several issues with Proton infotainment system: the apps behaviour and phone compatibility. It might be a point for you to test out when you go for test drive... Try to test with a new phone if possible, because I got new issues after I changed my 2016 phone few months ago laugh.gif

Overall, I recommend this car because it's a comfortable drive, but it does have minor issues that you'll have to work around or live with.

Quazacolt
post May 11 2021, 08:22 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 11 2021, 06:52 PM)
These are facts from around the net
*
Took up my suggestion to look up post crash information/photos between Saga Persona Iriz Bezza Myvi?

Otherwise, those are your opinions (bias) instead of facts.
Takudan
post May 11 2021, 08:25 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 7 2021, 06:22 PM)
Second, we don't know which car designed just to meet the crash test requirement, and which car designed at higher standard since they are not tested at higher speed openly outside the manufacturer lab.
*
Also, thank you and others for the detailed explanation about ANCAP ratings and evaluation. I too, looked up for the results and was impressed that Myvi made so much improvements.

However after my test drive experience, I am much more convinced that persona is a safer car. So, how is Myvi scoring better than Iriz/persona, but the latter feels safer? I guess the bolded part answers this: perhaps the car was made to pass the test with flying colours....... Full stop tongue.gif

It could just be "my feeling" and you can call me wrong if you want, but the main point is for you to test drive and decide yourself.
gx_azam
post May 11 2021, 09:45 PM

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Persona > saga > bezza.
Safety / stability over fuel saving
constant_weight
post May 11 2021, 10:30 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 11 2021, 06:52 PM)
Not sure if your just here, but in previous post i already mention that with proper crumple zone design & use of different material in chassis even with lower steel strength you can also achieve good safety results. latest gen Perodua Myvi already proof it in Asean NCAP.

You can argue that other car with higher metal strength can be better, but conclusion Myvi manage to meet it and did better results. BTW we are comparing smaller car category here.

It is open to anyone for discussion, if you think high tensile steel is good then go buy Proton or Hyundai. No one forcing you to choose Myvi, just as per what i mention early i base on Asean NCAP report and the data shown latest gen Myvi did better and the only safer car option now from Proton is X70. These are facts from around the net & Asean NCAP.
*
You said it is open for anyone for discussion, but you contradict yourself by denying anyone who mentioned Myvi weakness.

We don't try to deny ANCAP value, it is better than none and serve as good for reference. We merely stated all P2 models weakness - soft chassis core, and you confused it with crumple zone. You ignore vehicle weight that I mentioned, a 1 tonne car crumple zone only need to absorb energy from 1 tonne ~ vehicle weight. 2 tonnes car need to absorb more energy. How is that behave, NCAP doesn't test what happen when a 1 tonne Myvi have head on collision with a 2 tonnes SUV.

Again and again don't confused crumple zone with the chassis core strength that act at roll cage to protect the passenger. Which when sandwiched from side-to-side or front and back will keep the cabin intact. This is P2 weakness.

Real world accident often involves multiple vehicles chain crash, and this scenario is not tested in any NCAP around the world. To test it after Myvi hit the wall, then have to follow by it rear ended by a 4x4, that time the UHSS/AHSS will shows its advantage.

We have seen Alza broken into half at B pillar all 7 passengers were dead, Myvi crumpled completely, driver body in pieces. You may argue that Myvi just being unlucky to be involved in the worst accident, other car might ended up the same. Which maybe true, but statistics do the talking we see that more cases often involving P2. Which raised the concerns.

P2 is good if you use it for city driving mostly 40-60km/h. Use the right vehicle type for the right purpose, that all we who had past tragic experience trying to advice anyone with good intention. Can't stress enough P2 - Myvi, Alza, Ativa etc are urban city car. Occasionally a couple times highway a year when balik kampung most have no choice, but drive slowly. Not even don't drive fast, is explicitly drive slowly.

Anyway it is your own life. Again - Real world accident is not everyone take turn to bang the wall, people might bang you again from behind after you bang the wall.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 11 2021, 10:31 PM
constant_weight
post May 11 2021, 10:36 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 11 2021, 08:22 PM)
Took up my suggestion to look up post crash information/photos between Saga Persona Iriz Bezza Myvi?

Otherwise, those are your opinions (bias) instead of facts.
*
Yes, but not safe for work/kids. Many are horrible.
cyapd
post May 11 2021, 10:44 PM

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Myvi is just a car to get you from A to B. I’ve driven all of them from 1st gen to the current one. Go and drive 1 and push the car to the max on a touge. If I’m buying, I’d get a used jap instead.
Quazacolt
post May 11 2021, 10:45 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 11 2021, 10:36 PM)
Yes, but not safe for work/kids. Many are horrible.
*
ah that's true. thanks for the heads up and reminder thumbup.gif
dogbert_chew
post May 11 2021, 10:51 PM

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user posted image

Let me share this again ..
constant_weight
post May 11 2021, 11:05 PM

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QUOTE(Takudan @ May 11 2021, 08:25 PM)
Also, thank you and others for the detailed explanation about ANCAP ratings and evaluation. I too, looked up for the results and was impressed that Myvi made so much improvements.

However after my test drive experience, I am much more convinced that persona is a safer car. So, how is Myvi scoring better than Iriz/persona, but the latter feels safer? I guess the bolded part answers this: perhaps the car was made to pass the test with flying colours....... Full stop tongue.gif

It could just be "my feeling" and you can call me wrong if you want, but the main point is for you to test drive and decide yourself.
*
First of all ANCAP or any NCAP around the world are static tests. Which scenarios are known, and car makers can design the car just to ace the test. Eg:. the IIHS in US with 25% offset small overlap test, you can search the cheating story yourself if you're interested.

Secondly all the tests are primary accident, and involve 2 objects (the test vehicles itself vs the opponent).

Real world is more dynamic that might involve multiple vehicles and secondary crash. For example you performed an evasive maneuver but unable to avoid completely have the primary collision, then the vehicle loose control and hit something else secondary collision. Often secondary collision can be worse than primary collision. That's why we have SRS airbag, which involve seat belt pretensioner, and some intelligence to detect severity of primary crash and predict if secondary collision is possible and deploy at the right time. These dynamics are very expensive to test in the lab if not impossible.

Then the sandwiched accident that I mentioned many times.

Then the speed of NCAP test 50km/h front, 60km/h side. The speed were set and dragged by precise machine. In the real world, brake and tires play vital role, if vehicle and brake to speed below 60km/h without losing control. Most passenger car have braking distance are around 30-35m from 100km/h - 0km/h. Even very good supercars are around 30m range with some exceptional still at 28m-29m. The difference is brake balance/bias, a good tunes brake have minimum nose dive in full braking that enable the rear tires to maintain traction. In catch-22 situation, when you in evasive maneuver, good brake balance keep the car stable.

So ANCAP is a good reference, but so many dynamics in the real world that not covered. Use it for reference, but also see the post crash report/pictures.
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post May 11 2021, 11:10 PM

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QUOTE(amscouzach57 @ May 11 2021, 10:54 AM)
So at the end, which car TS has chosen? Or still undecided?
*
There is a lots of knowledges to be learn haha , honestly im not understand some of the info too rclxub.gif

Anyway now in my mind are 2 options: Saga or Persona , waiting for new release of Persona (Maybe end of May?)
only i will make a decision
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post May 11 2021, 11:15 PM

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QUOTE(Takudan @ May 11 2021, 08:15 PM)
Hi there, allow me to paste my wall of text in another similar thread:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Oh adding on... I have several issues with Proton infotainment system: the apps behaviour and phone compatibility. It might be a point for you to test out when you go for test drive... Try to test with a new phone if possible, because I got new issues after I changed my 2016 phone few months ago laugh.gif

Overall, I recommend this car because it's a comfortable drive, but it does have minor issues that you'll have to work around or live with.
*
Yes, U r rite mate, test drive is a must, that day i went passed by the showroom at Pandan Indah & get it to request to have a test drive of Saga & Persona, but one of the "Veteran" salesman told me during MCO not allowed to do so, & he said sure u like the feeling of driving, CONFIRM dry.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 11 2021, 11:17 PM

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QUOTE(gx_azam @ May 11 2021, 09:45 PM)
Persona > saga > bezza.
Safety / stability over fuel saving
*

Thx for ur comment !! nod.gif
fireballs
post May 11 2021, 11:18 PM

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ts still haven't decide kah

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5143364/


keep it simple, do grab use bezza because only fc matters

your headache should be either saga or persona

TSchuan30378
post May 11 2021, 11:23 PM

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QUOTE(fireballs @ May 11 2021, 11:18 PM)
ts still haven't decide kah

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5143364/
keep it simple, do grab use bezza because only fc matters

your headache should be either saga or persona
*
Ya mate i just read that thread too, saying Bezza bad handling, as mentioned earlier i will choice either Saga or Persona, if now im prefer Saga coz of the outlook & fuel saver (feel like more worth), but the proton salesman told me y not wait till end of May, there is a new Persona launching, so see hows going on , maybe will catch my eye brows.gif
fireballs
post May 11 2021, 11:45 PM

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took ride in bezza grab to klia many times
most of the driver say they regretted. for town use ok but once on highway.. sampan
littlefire
post May 12 2021, 09:14 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 11 2021, 09:22 PM)
Took up my suggestion to look up post crash information/photos between Saga Persona Iriz Bezza Myvi?

Otherwise, those are your opinions (bias) instead of facts.
*
Bro, regarding accident we dont even know what is behind the actual situation. Regarding all the post crash information/photos do you have the data how fast the driver is driving when impact? Did the driver survive and what injury they have? I have seen cars kemek like teruk but due to good crumple zone & safety features (air-bags + seat belt) the driver still survive. If you ask me Perodua got higher sales and lower cost cars so younger generation people can affort it and due to their age and mindset they might drive more recklessly and cause serious accident but still there is no actual data shown that Perodua Myvi drivers got higher rate of dead or serious injury due to accident? Still remember the famous Myvi, accord T-Bone case and several more accident involves Myvi most of it the driver survived.. Thus why Myvi got so much mix reputation on the web..

This post has been edited by littlefire: May 12 2021, 09:19 AM
amscouzach57
post May 12 2021, 10:36 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 11 2021, 11:10 PM)
There is a lots of knowledges to be learn haha , honestly im not understand some of the info too  rclxub.gif

Anyway now in my mind are 2 options: Saga or Persona , waiting for new release of Persona (Maybe end of May?)
only i will make a decision
*
Wise decision. Better wait for the release, then can make an accurate judgement
constant_weight
post May 12 2021, 11:50 AM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 12 2021, 09:14 AM)
Bro, regarding accident we dont even know what is behind the actual situation. Regarding all the post crash information/photos do you have the data how fast the driver is driving when impact? Did the driver survive and what injury they have? I have seen cars kemek like teruk but due to good crumple zone & safety features (air-bags + seat belt) the driver still survive. If you ask me Perodua got higher sales and lower cost cars so younger generation people can affort it and due to their age and mindset they might drive more recklessly and cause serious accident but still there is no actual data shown that Perodua Myvi drivers got higher rate of dead or serious injury due to accident? Still remember the famous Myvi, accord T-Bone case and several more accident involves Myvi most of it the driver survived.. Thus why Myvi got so much mix reputation on the web..
*
What you said just proved what I been reiterate, the real world accident is so dynamic. What is the real situation? There are so many of them, and we can only see the statistic. P2 have a lot more fatal/horrible accident in the news.

You maybe right that it is due to higher number of P2 on the road, we know they have absolute higher fatal cases, but we don't have the normalized fatal rate. You want to claim the P2 drivers are younger, and more reckless, where is the data? You don't have it as well.

I have very well doing friends and in their 60's. One is a financial/heritage tax/retirement consultant for expat, that like to buy P2. From Viva, upgrade to Axia. But he use it exactly as P2 intended for, a city car, strictly use it in downtown because he don't have to spend time to fix, and yes he ignored all the dents and scratches. Another friend's dad who is a developer boss also drive Myvi around the neighbor hood, also city car only. They all have proper car for long distance cross state needs.

To your point, the driver survive. That could be this scenario. Think if there were passengers in the back, will they survive? This is the exact case not tested in ANCAP.
Attached Image

This case all dead
Attached Image

You might argue, other car will be in the same state given same accident. I don't know about others, I know mine will have much higher chance to survive. The SUV version of my sedan (both are same platform, same 2 tonnes) have survived crashed by 30 tonnes lorry from the back, child seat at the back also intact. You can deny material strength, I choose to trust empirical data of the AHSS/UHSS/Boron Steel, the MPa rating, ratio of them used in car body, especially Hyundai the only car maker that own its steel industry that never stingy to use large amount of AHSS. Will one absolute safe? It depends. Will one be safer than P2, absolutely.
Attached Image

Full video here.


This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 12 2021, 11:54 AM
littlefire
post May 12 2021, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 12 2021, 12:50 PM)
What you said just proved what I been reiterate, the real world accident is so dynamic. What is the real situation? There are so many of them, and we can only see the statistic. P2 have a lot more fatal/horrible accident in the news.

You maybe right that it is due to higher number of P2 on the road, we know they have absolute higher fatal cases, but we don't have the normalized fatal rate. You want to claim the P2 drivers are younger, and more reckless, where is the data? You don't have it as well.

I have very well doing friends and in their 60's. One is a financial/heritage tax/retirement consultant for expat, that like to buy P2. From Viva, upgrade to Axia. But he use it exactly as P2 intended for, a city car, strictly use it in downtown because he don't have to spend time to fix, and yes he ignored all the dents and scratches. Another friend's dad who is a developer boss also drive Myvi around the neighbor hood, also city car only. They all have proper car for long distance cross state needs.

To your point, the driver survive. That could be this scenario. Think if there were passengers in the back, will they survive? This is the exact case not tested in ANCAP.
Attached Image

This case all dead
Attached Image

You might argue, other car will be in the same state given same accident. I don't know about others, I know mine will have much higher chance to survive. The SUV version of my sedan (both are same platform, same 2 tonnes) have survived crashed by 30 tonnes lorry from the back, child seat at the back also intact. You can deny material strength, I choose to trust empirical data of the AHSS/UHSS/Boron Steel, the MPa rating, ratio of them used in car body, especially Hyundai the only car maker that own its steel industry that never stingy to use large amount of AHSS. Will one absolute safe? It depends. Will one be safer than P2, absolutely.
Attached Image

Full video here.

*
Everyone can criticize each car weakness. If you want better safety car from rear end and can afford better car model then buy it. I look at overall prospective which include value & spec, given most people also just drive to work and everyday A-B travelling most cars only fetch 1~2 person daily and how many case of people getting hit from the back or serious accident, well this what accident means right?

https://automacha.com/proton-x70-crushed-by-cement-truck/

BTW, Proton X70 also crushed. rolleyes.gif If you can compare Perodua cars hit by bus & lorry, i believe a car size like X70 hitting by a cement truck would be similar right? So it is never ending story.. laugh.gif
Quazacolt
post May 12 2021, 03:02 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 12 2021, 09:14 AM)
Bro, regarding accident we dont even know what is behind the actual situation.

Regarding all the post crash information/photos do you have the data how fast the driver is driving when impact? Did the driver survive and what injury they have?

I have seen cars kemek like teruk but due to good crumple zone & safety features (air-bags + seat belt) the driver still survive.
*
I don't have those data on hand but with some effort in sure I could gather some and constant_weight kinda did the homework for me. (Thanks bro!)
Would love if you took up my suggestions be it looking up for data or go test both of those cars yourself on equal locations/conditions.

See, passive safety is good and all however let's not forget active safety (just the basic braking enough, no need fancy VSC/ESP etc added to the picture)

Even if you're hell bent on passive safety, why is it so hard to understand good structural integrity and chassis strength is equally, if not more important than crumple zones?

Think of car suspensions, springs and strut/double wishbone/multi link etc as the structural integrity/suspension (chassis- ) rigidity (strength), and your absorbers/dampers being crumple zone. Both are needed, one cannot work without the other. Crumple zones only have one purpose - disperse kinetic energy (from collision)
And once they hit their limits, it is up to the chassis (or cockpit/monocoque for sports/race cars) to resist further deformations so the structure doesn't collapse further to the occupant(s).

Please do not be confused on chassis strength and crumple zones. They are 2 different things that work together.

littlefire
post May 12 2021, 05:43 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 12 2021, 04:02 PM)
I don't have those data on hand but with some effort in sure I could gather some and constant_weight kinda did the homework for me. (Thanks bro!)
Would love if you took up my suggestions be it looking up for data or go test both of those cars yourself on equal locations/conditions.

See, passive safety is good and all however let's not forget active safety (just the basic braking enough, no need fancy VSC/ESP etc added to the picture)

Even if you're hell bent on passive safety, why is it so hard to understand good structural integrity and chassis strength is equally, if not more important than crumple zones?

Think of car suspensions, springs and strut/double wishbone/multi link etc as the structural integrity/suspension (chassis- ) rigidity (strength), and your absorbers/dampers being crumple zone. Both are needed, one cannot work without the other. Crumple zones only have one purpose - disperse kinetic energy (from collision)
And once they hit their limits, it is up to the chassis (or cockpit/monocoque for sports/race cars) to resist further deformations so the structure doesn't collapse further to the occupant(s).

Please do not be confused on chassis strength and crumple zones. They are 2 different things that work together.
*
Well, it is a never ending story. There are no actual data to spoke with unless some insurance guy can release data of how many accident claim from certain car model or car ECU or cam recorder data of the actual accident.

BTW if not mistaken you drove Subaru/Toyota BRZ/GT86, Subaru, Toyota & Daihatsu in Japan share most of their small car line up. The nearest link car to Myvi is the Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon chassis, while Subaru is the Justy Boon (If not mistaken already replace by Thor)

https://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/en/download/...0.3_panf_en.pdf

Just search for their safety rating in Japan especially for Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon for reference. The results also beat some bigger car category in Japan.
Quazacolt
post May 12 2021, 06:30 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 12 2021, 05:43 PM)
BTW if not mistaken you drove Subaru/Toyota BRZ/GT86, Subaru, Toyota & Daihatsu in Japan share most of their small car line up. The nearest link car to Myvi is the Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon chassis, while Subaru is the Justy Boon (If not mistaken already replace by Thor)

Just search for their safety rating in Japan especially for Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon for reference. The results also beat some bigger car category in Japan.
*
What does my car have anything to do with Myvi/Boon/Passo ?

I saw from your PDF the results aren't that great but still Max stars nonetheless. And it really means nothing when supposedly the latest Myvi G3 supposedly majority of the car is self designed/ developed/produced etc maybe minus the engine and transmission? (Or it's assembled here anyways, but I digress) so possibly a JPN Passo /Boon can have good chassis strength with high MPA steel, a Myvi may not have those inherit from its Passo/Boon counterpart.

Look bro, I love certifications, the NCAP is one, I'm good with that. However our message all along is that NCAP isn't be all end all. Some cars are built to a budget, some cars are built to only pass assessment programs, some cars are built with driver in mind, some cars are built with safety in mind.
You have your biases, hence I'm not even bothered to continue naming any names as to what brand/car models design priorities are.

So like you said, unless you're going for a different perspective/narrative, me personally, I'm pretty much done with NCAP
constant_weight
post May 12 2021, 06:51 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 12 2021, 05:43 PM)
Well, it is a never ending story. There are no actual data to spoke with unless some insurance guy can release data of how many accident claim from certain car model or car ECU or cam recorder data of the actual accident.

BTW if not mistaken you drove Subaru/Toyota BRZ/GT86, Subaru, Toyota & Daihatsu in Japan share most of their small car line up. The nearest link car to Myvi is the Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon chassis, while Subaru is the Justy Boon (If not mistaken already replace by Thor)

https://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/en/download/...0.3_panf_en.pdf

Just search for their safety rating in Japan especially for Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon for reference. The results also beat some bigger car category in Japan.
*
How can you put a pure sport sport car with a urban city car together. BRZ/86 needs to handle 200km/h+, urban city car don't have such requirement. Even the crumple zone of both just barely able to absorb 1 tonnes x speed energy, the BRZ/86 chassis is more rigid. Then how do you know the BRZ/86 crumple zone is not designed to take more energy? Do you have data to prove it to be same level as Myvi?

But we have data to prove BRZ/86 chassis contains more HSS and stiffer than Myvi.

My my my, thanks for sharing the document! But did you even read the carefully before splitting the hairs on the scores?

Section 7 - 37 points allocated for pedestrian protection. I'm being selfish, don't care about this section for my own car. But I want other people's car to score high here to protect me as pedestrian.

Section 9&10 - is whiplash protection. That is about the seat to protect the neck and spine. This one every country, every spec can have different seats, especially when CKD here, they going to score different in this test. Volvo is the only one that consistently give same whiplash protection certified seats in all specs even the cheapest fabric seat in cheapest model. This document never mention the specs of the cars chosen.

Then do you think your Myvi get the same front seats as Toyota Passo? Reference platform doesn't mean Myvi using same steel as the Passo. I couldn't find it, share it if you can prove Passo only use 680MPa just like Myvi.

Section 13 - 4 points for seat belt reminder, oh boy you count decimal places while here alone already 4 points.

Attached Image

So this particular C class test vehicle score badly because it has cheap driver and passenger seats and fails section 9&10? This document didn't put what spec is the C class. Will you claim Malaysian C class the same from other country report now you know the root cause? If yes, I got nothing to say. If not, why are you making conclusion Myvi is as safe as other county "related" model, not even the same model.

Attached Image

EURO NCAP score is even affected by child seat installation check which is how fool proof is the installation, which to me don't be lazy, read the freaking owner manual. How they objectively evaluate which system is less prone to installation mistake?

Ok lah, put a bucket seats in your Myvi, then install a full race roll cage. You address our concern, we got no reason to pick on you liao. rclxs0.gif

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 12 2021, 06:58 PM
Quazacolt
post May 12 2021, 07:02 PM

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littlefire so umm, do you even own a Myvi? Any generation, preferably the latest?
constant_weight
post May 12 2021, 07:12 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 12 2021, 07:02 PM)
littlefire so umm, do you even own a Myvi? Any generation, preferably the latest?
*
If he got a Myvi, and put a bucket seat + roll cage, then he win all. I will keep quiet.

Anyway, back to Proton topic I think we are a bit too far.

If he claim Myvi is as safe as Sage/Persona in the control environment on crash test, I got no problem with that.

But when others (quite a few of them) states Proton has advantage of more extensive use of HSS/UHSS, thus could be safer in real world more dynamic environment, along with better handling, he deny that saying Myvi is safer with higher score. Deny the safety advantage of more HSS/UHSS, that hit my nerve. tongue.gif

But I think I wasted enough time on a stranger. Just hope he don't mislead other people truly looking for feedback here.
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post May 12 2021, 07:57 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 12 2021, 06:30 PM)
What does my car have anything to do with Myvi/Boon/Passo ?

I saw from your PDF the results aren't that great but still Max stars nonetheless. And it really means nothing when supposedly the latest Myvi G3 supposedly majority of the car is self designed/ developed/produced etc maybe minus the engine and transmission? (Or it's assembled here anyways, but I digress) so possibly a JPN Passo /Boon can have good chassis strength with high MPA steel, a Myvi may not have those inherit from its Passo/Boon counterpart.

Look bro, I love certifications, the NCAP is one, I'm good with that. However our message all along is that NCAP isn't be all end all. Some cars are built to a budget, some cars are built to only pass assessment programs, some cars are built with driver in mind, some cars are built with safety in mind.
You have your biases, hence I'm not even bothered to continue naming any names as to what brand/car models design priorities are.

So like you said, unless you're going for a different perspective/narrative, me personally, I'm pretty much done with NCAP
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I won’t question how good the passo/boon but that’s jdm. It’s a different animal comparing with our local road king. I don’t think they’re using the exact technology and materials, that’s all.
ru40342
post May 12 2021, 08:53 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 12 2021, 07:12 PM)
If he got a Myvi, and put a bucket seat + roll cage, then he win all. I will keep quiet.

Anyway, back to Proton topic I think we are a bit too far.

If he claim Myvi is as safe as Sage/Persona in the control environment on crash test, I got no problem with that.

But when others (quite a few of them) states Proton has advantage of more extensive use of HSS/UHSS, thus could be safer in real world more dynamic environment, along with better handling, he deny that saying Myvi is safer with higher score. Deny the safety advantage of more HSS/UHSS, that hit my nerve.  tongue.gif

But I think I wasted enough time on a stranger. Just hope he don't mislead other people truly looking for feedback here.
*
He probably never own a proton before I supposed. Some people will blindly defend their car of choice and easily triggered if other people point that they are wrong.

I own Myvi 2 and Saga and if anyone tells me Myvi is safer (both passively and actively) than Saga in real world environment they surely never own a proton before.
furrybun
post May 12 2021, 10:37 PM

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Not implying anything, just sharing....

In 2013, the Myvi Lagi Best scored a paltry 3 -stars in ASEAN NCAP.

Then in end of 2014, the facelifted Myvi (colloquially called the IKON) was retested and the final tally improved to 4 stars.

Most interestingly, in January 2014 (before the IKON was tested), this news was release by P2 themselves on their website (Their new website no longer have the article, so thank god for the Wayback Machine


QUOTE
Perodua contributes RM1.5 m MIROS™ Crash Dummies Calibration Lab

13 Jan 2014

Putrajaya, 13 Jan – Perodua contributed RM1.5 million to renovate the Malaysian Institute of Road Safety Research’s (MIROS) PC3 facility in Malacca in order to house the latter’s crash test dummies calibration equipment.

The contribution is part of Perodua’s Corporate Responsibility programme to help the automotive industry by providing the necessary infrastructure and equipment for the measurement of safety.

“MIROS is an important institution and it is our privilege to contribute towards its activities,” Perodua President & CEO, Datuk Aminar Rashid Salleh said during the Memorandum of Understanding Agreement signing ceremony here today.

Aminar said that this contribution was also a prime example of a “smart partnership” between the private and public sector, which the Malaysian government is promoting.

“This contribution will also benefit the entire automotive industry as well as road users as the calibration equipment will greatly assist in the speed of data collecting and subsequent analysis of MIROS’ work,” Aminar added.

The renovation work was carried out in October last year and the facility is expected to be ready by end of February this year.

“This crash dummies calibration room is important because it will help in reducing the time to maintain this very sensitive equipment as such equipment is not available in Malaysia before this,” said MIROS Director General, Professor Dr. Wong Shaw Voon.

In a show of appreciation for the contribution, MIROS will display Perodua’s logo and name at the crash dummy calibration room.

After the installation, MIROS will maintain all the calibration equipment on its own cost.

MIROS is a government body providing consultation and advise on road safety issues. It also develops national objectives, policies, and priorities for the orderly development and administration of road safety research.


Totally not implying ASEAN NCAP is not impartial or biased or untrustable when it comes to Perodua....anything like that at all whistling.gif

This post has been edited by furrybun: May 12 2021, 10:47 PM
clockpulses
post May 12 2021, 10:45 PM

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QUOTE(furrybun @ May 12 2021, 10:37 PM)
Not implying anything, just sharing....

In 2013, the Myvi Lagi Best scored a paltry 3 -stars in ASEAN NCAP.

Then in end of 2014, the facelifted Myvi (colloquially called the IKON) was retested and the finally tally improved to 4 stars.

Most interestingly, in January 2014 (before the IKON was tested), this news was release by P2 themselves on their website (Their new website no longer have the article, so thank god for the Wayback Machine
Totally not implying ASEAN NCAP is not impartial or biased or untrustable when it comes to Perodua....anything like that at all whistling.gif
*
The moment Bezza get same score as Preve, that's it. I no longer trust Asean NCAP
constant_weight
post May 12 2021, 11:38 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 12 2021, 05:43 PM)
Well, it is a never ending story. There are no actual data to spoke with unless some insurance guy can release data of how many accident claim from certain car model or car ECU or cam recorder data of the actual accident.

BTW if not mistaken you drove Subaru/Toyota BRZ/GT86, Subaru, Toyota & Daihatsu in Japan share most of their small car line up. The nearest link car to Myvi is the Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon chassis, while Subaru is the Justy Boon (If not mistaken already replace by Thor)

https://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/en/download/...0.3_panf_en.pdf

Just search for their safety rating in Japan especially for Toyota Passo/Daihatsu Boon for reference. The results also beat some bigger car category in Japan.
*
Read yourself, original publish by EURO NCAP on how to interpret the result. Still don't believe me?
https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/53186/develo...rld-crashes.pdf


Compensation for Mass Differences
The influence of mass on injury outcome described by power model functions has been described extensively by
Elvik et al. [15] and Krafft et al. [16]. If there are mass differences between the case vehicles and the vehicles that
they collide with, both groups will be exposed to an impact severity different to that from when the two groups of vehicles have the same mass.
If the case vehicle group is lighter than the other vehicle group, it will experience a
higher impact severity compared to its collision partners (Impact Energy = mass * velocity2). At the same time, the
other heavier vehicles will experience a lower impact severity. The mass differential will therefore result in a benefit
for one vehicle and a disadvantage for the other vehicle in a two-car crash. In order to allow for accurate
comparisons and take into account the importance of mass for the case vehicles, the altered impact severity
distribution for the cars they collide with must be compensated for.
The adjusted relative injury risk is therefore
expressed as in Equation 2. The power ‘y’ in Equation 2 varies depending on the severity of the injury studied.
Three mass adjustments were used depending on the injury severity; all injuries y=0.5, fatal and serious injury
y=1.8, fatal injury y=3.5. The more severe the injury, the higher power ‘y’, resulting in a steeper slope of the risk
curve.


Crash testing into a fixed barrier is equivalent to a crash into a car of the same mass, while the real-world outcome integrates mass as a factor that influences impact severity. In order to have a relevant comparison between crash test results and real-world performance, the influence of mass has to be fully adjusted for, considering both the case vehicle group and the group of cars that it collides with. The effect in the calculations will be that the power ‘y’ in Equation 2 has to be doubled in the evaluation of Euro NCAP star ratings so that the pure safety design benefit can be isolated.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 12 2021, 11:42 PM
tctham
post Jun 9 2021, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(Takudan @ May 11 2021, 08:15 PM)
Hi there, allow me to paste my wall of text in another similar thread:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Oh adding on... I have several issues with Proton infotainment system: the apps behaviour and phone compatibility. It might be a point for you to test out when you go for test drive... Try to test with a new phone if possible, because I got new issues after I changed my 2016 phone few months ago laugh.gif

Overall, I recommend this car because it's a comfortable drive, but it does have minor issues that you'll have to work around or live with.
*
just wanna chip in. that i too felt floaty when it reaches 150kmh. but from 0-149, the car felt rather stable. only upon reaching 150kmh, it suddenly felt floaty. but some may experience that slightly earlier if they are using economy tires, as i am using michelin ps3 tires.
fastreader
post Jun 9 2021, 11:59 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 03:05 PM)
Have you opened the links you sent and properly compared both cars?

Watch the videos within those links that are also publicly available on YouTube?

And if you're having an open mind, look up real world post crash car conditions on Iriz and Myvi.
The video alone is enough hint even when the Asean NCAP only crashes at 64kph.
The higher the crash, the better advantage and chances the Iriz will have.

And that's after you crash.
If you're still willing to have an open mind, go find a location with BOTH Proton and Perodua SC side by side (Taman Kok Lian tesco there is one) , check both Iriz Myvi same tires (should be Goodyear assistance triple Max 2) that's also same sizes.

Feel free to do emergency braking from 60 kph to 0 kph on both cars on same stretch of road.

Facts and opinions/bias are 2 very different things.

=Edit=
Asean NCAP tests at 64kph not 40kph that I wrongly mentioned
*
good explanation and personally, i have test drive both...and they are not next to each other, but rather , opposite each other tongue.gif tongue.gif

i vouched for the proton iriz anytime...

Personal ride is a E90 beemer, driving it like wannabe ricer boz. so, yea, i could appreciate the iriz.. tongue.gif
Quazacolt
post Jun 9 2021, 12:37 PM

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QUOTE(tctham @ Jun 9 2021, 11:39 AM)
just wanna chip in. that i too felt floaty when it reaches 150kmh. but from 0-149, the car felt rather stable. only upon reaching 150kmh, it suddenly felt floaty. but some may experience that slightly earlier if they are using economy tires, as i am using michelin ps3 tires.
*
What's your tire pressure?

QUOTE(fastreader @ Jun 9 2021, 11:59 AM)
good explanation and personally, i have test drive both...and they are not next to each other, but rather , opposite each other  tongue.gif  tongue.gif

i vouched for the proton iriz anytime...

Personal ride is a E90 beemer, driving it like wannabe ricer boz. so, yea, i could appreciate the iriz.. tongue.gif
*
Thanks!

And yes you're correct it does have a road separating them lol! My bad notworthy.gif
Attached Image
tctham
post Jun 9 2021, 02:08 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Jun 9 2021, 12:37 PM)
What's your tire pressure?
*
around 31psi front and back

This post has been edited by tctham: Jun 9 2021, 02:08 PM
Quazacolt
post Jun 9 2021, 09:16 PM

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QUOTE(tctham @ Jun 9 2021, 02:08 PM)
around 31psi front and back
*
hmm i actually had around 32-33 front and about 31rear cold , on GoodYear Assurance Triplemax
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

still felt pretty stable, maybe new car kot, damper oil still fresh fresh (or yours pre geely and post geely they did subtle changes?)
dogbert_chew
post Jun 9 2021, 09:47 PM

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chuan30378

Any news from your salesman when Persona facelift (MC2) launching?
TSchuan30378
post Jun 9 2021, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ Jun 9 2021, 09:47 PM)
chuan30378

Any news from your salesman when Persona facelift (MC2) launching?
*
Hi mate, yaya, the SA send me some info regarding some modifications that applied to the new Persona after training , seems good the new look , just wait for launching estimating end of June, stay tune brows.gif
TSchuan30378
post Jun 9 2021, 11:03 PM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ Jun 9 2021, 09:47 PM)
chuan30378

Any news from your salesman when Persona facelift (MC2) launching?
*
user posted image
myteam94
post Jun 10 2021, 01:20 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ Jun 9 2021, 11:03 PM)
user posted image
*
By the looks of it, no ADAS?
Quazacolt
post Jun 10 2021, 03:51 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ Jun 9 2021, 11:03 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
and that's the death of the manual transmission.

/salute
dogbert_chew
post Jun 10 2021, 04:26 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Jun 10 2021, 03:51 AM)
and that's the death of the manual transmission.

/salute
*
Yup, for Persona.

Budget cars Axia, Saga still available. Not sure about the Iriz though.

Else get the trucks still plenty across various makes.
Or move to Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand..
Quazacolt
post Jun 10 2021, 05:35 AM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ Jun 10 2021, 04:26 AM)
Yup, for Persona.

Budget cars Axia, Saga still available. Not sure about the Iriz though.

Else get the trucks still plenty across various makes.
Or move to Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand..
*
fortunately i don't have to wub.gif
tctham
post Jun 10 2021, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ Jun 9 2021, 11:03 PM)
user posted image
*
well, good for us existing owners. now we can buy 16" original rims. and PnP onto our car. hoho.
same goes for the LED lamp. i think the brackets should be the same (i replaced my boot with the FL boot because i got rear ended)
i personally think the foglamp is useful during VERY heavy downpour (or to revenge against vios that dunno why just love to turn on their rear fog lamps on normal days), will miss that.
the front sensor.. not a loss. persona sensor is delayed to begin with. i rarely use the sensor.
jealous of the 16" spare tire though. hope it's not a space saver like the current models. not a fan of space savers.

QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Jun 10 2021, 03:51 AM)
and that's the death of the manual transmission.

/salute
*
that is truly depressing.. manuals are truly a joy to drive. glad i managed to buy the manual variant. (i kinda foresee it's going to be hard to find a manual in the future, hence i was adamant to buy a manual car this time.. i used to drive auto for 9 years and finally decided to swap to manual)

though the next ride after this, will be auto since i think 5-7 years down the road, there won't be another upgrade option for manual cars
- vios no more manual
- civic type r no longer for sale
- toyota 86 / subaru brz i think no longer for sale too
- hyundai i30n is a limited edition run i think
- not sure if they will bring in the new platform of wrx sti

then again, these are almost 300k mark.. from 40k+ -> 300k+ is quite a huge jump. dun think i can afford those so soon either.
ru40342
post Jun 10 2021, 02:52 PM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ Jun 10 2021, 04:26 AM)
Yup, for Persona.

Budget cars Axia, Saga still available. Not sure about the Iriz though.

Else get the trucks still plenty across various makes.
Or move to Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand..
*
Year but those cars only have manual on their bare bone models. Last time I really eager to get Saga manual but it lacks many things that the more premium variants have so I opted for Saga premium.

Not sure why car companies think that manual drivers are cheapskate drivers.
dogbert_chew
post Jun 10 2021, 07:16 PM

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QUOTE(ru40342 @ Jun 10 2021, 02:52 PM)

Not sure why car companies think that manual drivers are cheapskate drivers.
*
Car manufacturers build according to market demand.
Unfortunately in Malaysia, the demographics for local brands sway almost exclusively towards automatic/ CVTs.

It is a different story in say Indonesia.
pixelrider
post Jun 10 2021, 07:44 PM

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QUOTE(ru40342 @ Jun 10 2021, 02:52 PM)
Year but those cars only have manual on their bare bone models. Last time I really eager to get Saga manual but it lacks many things that the more premium variants have so I opted for Saga premium.

Not sure why car companies think that manual drivers are cheapskate drivers.
*
Remember Iriz 1.6 Manual? Proton go ahead with this hoping that people will keep to their words when they say they will only buy manual. Alas their sales figure is so disappointing they have to halt the production for that.

99% of people out there, at least in Malaysia, prefer auto, sad for car enthusiast but that's how it is.
Quazacolt
post Jun 11 2021, 07:03 AM

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QUOTE(tctham @ Jun 10 2021, 02:20 PM)
the front sensor.. not a loss. persona sensor is delayed to begin with. i rarely use the sensor.


that is truly depressing.. manuals are truly a joy to drive. glad i managed to buy the manual variant. (i kinda foresee it's going to be hard to find a manual in the future, hence i was adamant to buy a manual car this time.. i used to drive auto for 9 years and finally decided to swap to manual)

though the next ride after this, will be auto since i think 5-7 years down the road, there won't be another upgrade option for manual cars
- toyota 86 / subaru brz i think no longer for sale too

then again, these are almost 300k mark.. from 40k+ -> 300k+ is quite a huge jump. dun think i can afford those so soon either.
*
the front sensor is probably still available for the E/P variants, only standard is removed.


yes i do agree, that's why i YOLO'd and drive the car i am driving now.
similarly to you i was driving auto too since getting my license from a hand me down Iswara. only 2012, ~9 years later i managed to have a Manual kancil and that's when i fell in love for the manual transmission as well.

well, i don't think you need to despair if your timeline is within 5-7 years?

86 BRZ already released 2nd generation and manual is 100% confirmed. albeit if officially sold in Malaysia (which i think it will, seeing how the GR Yaris completely sold out on its Malaysian allocation), it'll be well over 300k and the 2.4 liters engine will be a bit more expensive for annual road tax renewals.

worst case if it isn't officially sold in Malaysia, there's still recond imports smile.gif

never say never wink.gif
10, or even as close as 5 years ago I wouldn't have dream of driving the I am driving now either laugh.gif
blmse92
post Jun 13 2021, 10:50 PM

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Personally own a saga blm (se) edition back in 2009, likes the handling of that car, felt heavy down the road (quite stable) definitely better than bezza. But oh boi that car drink fuel.
TSchuan30378
post Jun 13 2021, 11:16 PM

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QUOTE(blmse92 @ Jun 13 2021, 10:50 PM)
Personally own a saga blm (se) edition back in 2009, likes the handling of that car, felt heavy down the road (quite stable) definitely better than bezza. But oh boi that car drink fuel.
*
Hi Bro, thx for the comment, if compare with Bezza, sure Saga more likely is drink more fuel , but still ok rite , no very thirsty la
tctham
post Jun 14 2021, 09:18 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ Jun 13 2021, 11:16 PM)
Hi Bro, thx for the comment, if compare with Bezza, sure Saga more likely is drink more fuel , but still ok rite , no very thirsty la
*
heh~ my old saga blm (auto 1.3 2009) drink more fuel than my persona vvt (manual 1.6 2018)
if highway, just moderate.
if jam, that car really drinks.
matrix88
post Jun 14 2021, 09:22 AM

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QUOTE(tctham @ Jun 14 2021, 09:18 AM)
heh~ my old saga blm (auto 1.3 2009) drink more fuel than my persona vvt (manual 1.6 2018)
if highway, just moderate.
if jam, that car really drinks.
*
off course auto drinks more fuel than manual la, moreover, the car is so old compared to new one, 10 years difference, sure la old car if not maintained properly consumes more fuel.
Zot
post Jun 14 2021, 09:33 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ Jun 13 2021, 11:16 PM)
Hi Bro, thx for the comment, if compare with Bezza, sure Saga more likely is drink more fuel , but still ok rite , no very thirsty la
*
Bigger cc car not necessarily consume more fuel like most people believe. If engine is lower power, the gear ration is increased that the rpm is higher to ease the load to engine. Higher rpm means more fuel.

My 1.5 MyVi is significantly uses less fuel than my previous Axia.

My rough evaluation comparing 1L and 2L engine on highway
1.5L engine around 5L/100km @ 80km/h
2L engine around 6.2L/100km @ 80km/h
blmse92
post Jun 14 2021, 09:54 AM

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QUOTE(matrix88 @ Jun 14 2021, 09:22 AM)
off course auto drinks more fuel than manual la, moreover, the car is so old compared to new one, 10 years difference, sure la old car if not maintained properly consumes more fuel.
*
I agree on this but someone in blm saga group once saids 'Saga blm 1.3 litre if 100% city jam, it does drink fuel like a 2.0 litre car' GG! biggrin.gif
tctham
post Jun 14 2021, 10:48 AM

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QUOTE(matrix88 @ Jun 14 2021, 09:22 AM)
off course auto drinks more fuel than manual la, moreover, the car is so old compared to new one, 10 years difference, sure la old car if not maintained properly consumes more fuel.
*
actually if you drove the saga blm, you will know what i mean about the fuel consumption. if 100% city jam, it's about 7-9km /L. About 240-270km, and the fuel low indicator will come up.
even at highway, it's only around 10-11km/L
even amongst its competitors, there's not many cars with FC that poor, even those with bigger cc engines.
that was my main gripe about the car back then. (poor fc -> makes a petrol station trip every 4 days because of weekday jam, poor standstill acceleration -> fear during junction exit, lack of abs -> emergency maneuver, pair with its stock silverstone, the car slides around a lot)

QUOTE(blmse92 @ Jun 14 2021, 09:54 AM)
I agree on this but someone in blm saga group once saids 'Saga blm 1.3 litre if 100% city jam, it does drink fuel like a 2.0 litre car' GG! biggrin.gif
*
yes, i've seen other cars with 2.0L engine, and their FC is better than mine. haha
amscouzach57
post Jun 14 2021, 11:06 AM

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QUOTE(tctham @ Jun 14 2021, 10:48 AM)
actually if you drove the saga blm, you will know what i mean about the fuel consumption. if 100% city jam, it's about 7-9km /L. About 240-270km, and the fuel low indicator will come up.
even at highway, it's only around 10-11km/L
even amongst its competitors, there's not many cars with FC that poor, even those with bigger cc engines.
that was my main gripe about the car back then. (poor fc -> makes a petrol station trip every 4 days because of weekday jam, poor standstill acceleration -> fear during junction exit, lack of abs -> emergency maneuver, pair with its stock silverstone, the car slides around a lot)
yes, i've seen other cars with 2.0L engine, and their FC is better than mine. haha
*
Agreed. My Mazda 6 2.2D FC is better than my Saga FLX 1.6 SE & also Persona VVT 1.6 😅

Even in 100% city driving 🤦‍♂️
TSchuan30378
post Jun 14 2021, 11:14 PM

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QUOTE(amscouzach57 @ Jun 14 2021, 11:06 AM)
Agreed. My Mazda 6 2.2D FC is better than my Saga FLX 1.6 SE & also Persona VVT 1.6 😅

Even in 100% city driving 🤦‍♂️
*
I believe however also, we must accept Nippon car is sure good in fuel consumption if compare other country one, City , Vios , Mazda all in their technology always in the mind of public their are leading in fuel consumption , this is truth thumbup.gif
ah_suknat
post Jun 15 2021, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(pixelrider @ Jun 10 2021, 11:44 AM)
Remember Iriz 1.6 Manual? Proton go ahead with this hoping that people will keep to their words when they say they will only buy manual. Alas their sales figure is so disappointing they have to halt the production for that.

99% of people out there, at least in Malaysia, prefer auto, sad for car enthusiast but that's how it is.
*
Best is if they can build car on demand instead of keeping stocks.

Make manual car available only if the customers want to buy
Quazacolt
post Jun 15 2021, 07:20 PM

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QUOTE(ah_suknat @ Jun 15 2021, 12:26 PM)
Best is if they can build car on demand instead of keeping stocks.

Make manual car available only if the customers want to buy
*
Custom build instead of mass production = price sky rocket.

Economics of scale flew out the window suddenly? Lol
zero5177
post Jun 15 2021, 07:28 PM

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Glad I get to experience 5MT with hydraulic clutch from Persona VVT,
I guess Malaysian don't have the fate to get a taste of 6MT on common car sad.gif
ah_suknat
post Jun 15 2021, 08:43 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Jun 15 2021, 11:20 AM)
Custom build instead of mass production = price sky rocket.

Economics of scale flew out the window suddenly? Lol
*
Its not really customade per se

Its just a manual version of the top spec, and instead of car manufacturers wasting resources making tons of manual version without knowing the demand, they only assemble the manual version if a customer want a manual version. it will safe them money in the grand scheme of things
Quazacolt
post Jun 15 2021, 09:11 PM

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QUOTE(ah_suknat @ Jun 15 2021, 08:43 PM)
Its not really customade per se

Its just a manual version of the top spec, and instead of car manufacturers wasting resources making tons of manual version without knowing the demand, they only assemble the manual version if a customer want a manual version. it will safe them money in the grand scheme of things
*
bro, you know production line isn't free right? one more spec one more variant = 1 more line.

(we can see why proton was struggling so much back then yes? like 5? or more variants for one iriz and another 4-5 for Persona, 1.3 - 1.6 manual auto then standard exec premium.

Geely came aboard straight chop off low demanding ones.
constant_weight
post Jun 16 2021, 05:30 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Jun 15 2021, 09:11 PM)
bro, you know production line isn't free right? one more spec one more variant = 1 more line.

(we can see why proton was struggling so much back then yes? like 5? or more variants for one iriz and another 4-5 for Persona, 1.3 - 1.6 manual auto then standard exec premium.

Geely came aboard straight chop off low demanding ones.
*
Unless super high volume like VW global factory or ultra high volume household items like shampoo or toothpaste, most factory don't have luxury to setup new line just for product variants.

It is usually production line conversion that need to change the mechanical fixtures, and software link to different part number or profile for the automation robot etc.

Meaning it is worse than 1 more line as conversion = non productive time, especially in automotive. Even switching different color involve productivity loss.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: Jun 16 2021, 05:32 PM
amscouzach57
post Jun 16 2021, 05:49 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ Jun 15 2021, 07:28 PM)
Glad I get to experience 5MT with hydraulic clutch from Persona VVT,
I guess Malaysian don't have the fate to get a taste of 6MT on common car  sad.gif
*
You still can. 6MT can be found in pickup trucks.

Still common & affordable per se
amscouzach57
post Jun 16 2021, 08:11 PM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 3 2021, 10:54 PM)
Hi Forumers,

Just request u all give any opinion or comment for above 3 models car, which one worth to buy ? Recently user are most welcome to give the comment, thank you very much !! thumbup.gif
*
TS, at the end, which car you decided to buy?
mffa
post Jun 16 2021, 10:38 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jun 14 2021, 09:33 AM)
Bigger cc car not necessarily consume more fuel like most people believe. If engine is lower power, the gear ration is increased that the rpm is higher to ease the load to engine. Higher rpm means more fuel.

My 1.5 MyVi is significantly uses less fuel than my previous Axia.

My rough evaluation comparing 1L and 2L engine on highway
1.5L engine around 5L/100km @ 80km/h
2L engine around 6.2L/100km @ 80km/h
*
QUOTE(tctham @ Jun 14 2021, 10:48 AM)
actually if you drove the saga blm, you will know what i mean about the fuel consumption. if 100% city jam, it's about 7-9km /L. About 240-270km, and the fuel low indicator will come up.
even at highway, it's only around 10-11km/L
even amongst its competitors, there's not many cars with FC that poor, even those with bigger cc engines.
that was my main gripe about the car back then. (poor fc -> makes a petrol station trip every 4 days because of weekday jam, poor standstill acceleration -> fear during junction exit, lack of abs -> emergency maneuver, pair with its stock silverstone, the car slides around a lot)
yes, i've seen other cars with 2.0L engine, and their FC is better than mine. haha
*
QUOTE(amscouzach57 @ Jun 14 2021, 11:06 AM)
Agreed. My Mazda 6 2.2D FC is better than my Saga FLX 1.6 SE & also Persona VVT 1.6 😅

Even in 100% city driving 🤦‍♂️
*
QUOTE(chuan30378 @ Jun 14 2021, 11:14 PM)
I believe however also, we must accept Nippon car is sure good in fuel consumption if compare other country one, City , Vios , Mazda all in their technology always in the mind of public their are leading in fuel consumption  , this is truth  thumbup.gif
*
FC I think, u get what u pay lor..

Rm30k car, combined fc: 10km/L

Rm150k car, combined fc: 15km/L

How to compare lor. not a really fair comparison.

I think if car A fuel efficient than car B in same price range, then I admit car A definitely fuel efficient.

If car A fuel efficient than car B, but different price range, I dont really think car A is fuel efficient as the comparison is not fair to begin with.

U pay more u get more features la right including much more fuel efficient car. No?.

This post has been edited by mffa: Jun 16 2021, 10:42 PM
TSchuan30378
post Jun 16 2021, 11:09 PM

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QUOTE(amscouzach57 @ Jun 16 2021, 08:11 PM)
TS, at the end, which car you decided to buy?
*
Hi mate, 1st choice = persona , 2nd choice = saga , will change my mind maybe if the changes of the outlook & internal of persona really make me not interested of it thumbup.gif
amscouzach57
post Jun 17 2021, 12:13 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ Jun 16 2021, 11:09 PM)
Hi mate, 1st choice = persona , 2nd choice = saga , will change my mind maybe if the changes of the outlook & internal of persona really make me not interested of it thumbup.gif
*
If that is the case. Wait a little bit for the Persona facelift. Gonna be soon. Maybe in July or August.
amscouzach57
post Jun 17 2021, 12:27 AM

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QUOTE(mffa @ Jun 16 2021, 10:38 PM)
FC I think, u get what u pay lor..

Rm30k car, combined fc: 10km/L

Rm150k car, combined fc: 15km/L

How to compare lor. not a really fair comparison.

I think if car A fuel efficient than car B in same price range, then I admit car A definitely fuel efficient.

If car A fuel efficient than car B, but different price range, I dont really think car A is fuel efficient as the comparison is not fair to begin with.

U pay more u get more features la right including much more fuel efficient car. No?.
*
That's not the way I perceived it.

Cheap car, supposed to be cheap to run & economy is the main factor of sorts. A car a smaller displacement engine, smaller in size & much lighter in weight, you would think logically the car would be fuel efficient. But no.. they tend to be a fuel guzzler.

When I bought the Mazda 6, never once came across my mind I think about fuel efficiency. I buy it for the driving pleasure, the emotion exerted when behind the steering wheel. Twin turbocharged & considerably large displacement engine. Larger size & heavier in weight. Fuel efficiency came as a surprise.

Following your logic, people wouldn't buy the myvi & the cars within the same segment. Not just the price needs to be cheap. But they have to be cheap to run as well. That was the success recipe.

It doesn't make sense to me to buy a more expensive car due to fuel efficiency. The money save from fuel saving doesn't even justify the extra price to pay.

Not that I'm complaining. Love driving my cars regardless. My earlier statement is just to agree with a fact

This post has been edited by amscouzach57: Jun 17 2021, 12:29 AM
mffa
post Jun 17 2021, 02:58 AM

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QUOTE(amscouzach57 @ Jun 17 2021, 12:27 AM)
That's not the way I perceived it.

Cheap car, supposed to be cheap to run & economy is the main factor of sorts. A car a smaller displacement engine, smaller in size & much lighter in weight, you would think logically the car would be fuel efficient. But no.. they tend to be a fuel guzzler.

When I bought the Mazda 6, never once came across my mind I think about fuel efficiency. I buy it for the driving pleasure, the emotion exerted when behind the steering wheel. Twin turbocharged & considerably large displacement engine. Larger size & heavier in weight. Fuel efficiency came as a surprise.

Following your logic, people wouldn't buy the myvi & the cars within the same segment. Not just the price needs to be cheap. But they have to be cheap to run as well. That was the success recipe.

It doesn't make sense to me to buy a more expensive car due to fuel efficiency. The money save from fuel saving doesn't even justify the extra price to pay.

Not that I'm complaining. Love driving my cars regardless. My earlier statement is just to agree with a fact
*
My point is, nowadays advancement in technology make expensive cars as fuel efficient if not better than cheaper cars.

People definitely will still go for cheaper car lor due to cheap price/cheap maintance. people here so shock how come bigger more powerful car get better fuel economy.

the thruth is cars above rm100k technology advance so fast. while cars below rm100k technology is static in malaysia.

that is the sad thruth. In next 5 to 10 years, people will no longer talk about small car fuel efficiency. as above rm100k car match their fc already.
Zot
post Jun 17 2021, 08:32 AM

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QUOTE(amscouzach57 @ Jun 17 2021, 12:27 AM)
That's not the way I perceived it.

Cheap car, supposed to be cheap to run & economy is the main factor of sorts. A car a smaller displacement engine, smaller in size & much lighter in weight, you would think logically the car would be fuel efficient. But no.. they tend to be a fuel guzzler.

When I bought the Mazda 6, never once came across my mind I think about fuel efficiency. I buy it for the driving pleasure, the emotion exerted when behind the steering wheel. Twin turbocharged & considerably large displacement engine. Larger size & heavier in weight. Fuel efficiency came as a surprise.

Following your logic, people wouldn't buy the myvi & the cars within the same segment. Not just the price needs to be cheap. But they have to be cheap to run as well. That was the success recipe.

It doesn't make sense to me to buy a more expensive car due to fuel efficiency. The money save from fuel saving doesn't even justify the extra price to pay.

Not that I'm complaining. Love driving my cars regardless. My earlier statement is just to agree with a fact
*
QUOTE(mffa @ Jun 17 2021, 02:58 AM)
My point is, nowadays advancement in technology make expensive cars as fuel efficient if not better than cheaper cars.

People definitely will still go for cheaper car lor due to cheap price/cheap maintance. people here so shock how come bigger more powerful car get better fuel economy.

the thruth is cars above rm100k technology advance so fast. while cars below rm100k technology is static in malaysia.

that is the sad thruth. In next 5 to 10 years, people will no longer talk about small car fuel efficiency. as above rm100k car match their fc already.
*
I think you guys think too complicated. It is not mainly about high tech or car price. The general main reason is the bigger the car engine, the more expensive the price. Therefore in general the bigger car has bigger engine and the higher the price.

After that, the price added up with more more bells and whistles. If you buy small luxury car that usually comes with big engine, then the fuel consumption much lower than the big car with same size.

When a car with more weight has to be moved by small engine, then the gear ratio is adjusted to give more power. Therefore, the engine will run at higher rpm to increase power while the bigger engine can move the car with much lower gear ratio. That determines FC in general. This the reason why 1 ton lorry has small wheel size to help it move the heavy load wink.gif
DS51
post Jun 17 2021, 11:55 AM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jun 17 2021, 08:32 AM)
I think you guys think too complicated. It is not mainly about high tech or car price. The general main reason is the bigger the car engine, the more expensive the price. Therefore in general the bigger car has bigger engine and the higher the price.

After that, the price added up with more more bells and whistles. If you buy small luxury car that usually comes with big engine, then the fuel consumption much lower than the big car with same size.

When a car with more weight has to be moved by small engine, then the gear ratio is adjusted to give more power. Therefore, the engine will run at higher rpm to increase power while the bigger engine can move the car with much lower gear ratio. That determines FC in general. This the reason why 1 ton lorry has small wheel size to help it move the heavy load wink.gif
*
last time where got turbocharge, turbodiesel..but now all going turbo

and gearbox too. budget car still stuck with 4at transmission, while expensive above rm100k already move into 6at, dct, dsg, zf8, 9gtronic.

I got small cheaper car, and above rm180k car. tbh small car is cheaper in everyway such as service, tyre change, insurance. but fuel consumption lose to my expensive car under normal driving behavior.

majority people did not notice this as they always gunning their powerful car. try to drive leisurely, it will become very very fuel efficient. thats the beauty of engineering advancement which cheap car dont get.

This post has been edited by DS51: Jun 17 2021, 11:55 AM
Zot
post Jun 17 2021, 12:06 PM

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QUOTE(DS51 @ Jun 17 2021, 11:55 AM)
last time where got turbocharge, turbodiesel..but now all going turbo

and gearbox too. budget car still stuck with 4at transmission, while expensive above rm100k already move into 6at, dct, dsg, zf8, 9gtronic.

I got small cheaper car, and above rm180k car. tbh small car is cheaper in everyway such as service, tyre change, insurance. but fuel consumption lose to my expensive car under normal driving behavior.

majority people did not notice this as they always gunning their powerful car. try to drive leisurely, it will become very very fuel efficient. thats the beauty of engineering advancement which cheap car dont get.
*
I guess more likely small car for short distances more on city road than highway compare to more highway distance then city road distance. If both on same route with same driving behavior, I think smaller car should not be losing to big one laugh.gif
DS51
post Jun 17 2021, 02:58 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jun 14 2021, 09:33 AM)
Bigger cc car not necessarily consume more fuel like most people believe. If engine is lower power, the gear ration is increased that the rpm is higher to ease the load to engine. Higher rpm means more fuel.

My 1.5 MyVi is significantly uses less fuel than my previous Axia.
*
QUOTE(Zot @ Jun 17 2021, 12:06 PM)
I guess more likely small car for short distances more on city road than highway compare to more highway distance then city road distance. If both on same route with same driving behavior, I think smaller car should not be losing to big one  laugh.gif
*
😁😁

This post has been edited by DS51: Jun 17 2021, 03:03 PM
Zot
post Jun 17 2021, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(DS51 @ Jun 17 2021, 02:58 PM)
😁😁
*
I was referring to Big car vs small car. MyVi and Axia are about the same size but different engine size.

Did you run fair test or not? tongue.gif
tctham
post Jun 17 2021, 03:50 PM

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QUOTE(mffa @ Jun 16 2021, 10:38 PM)
FC I think, u get what u pay lor..

Rm30k car, combined fc: 10km/L

Rm150k car, combined fc: 15km/L

How to compare lor. not a really fair comparison.

I think if car A fuel efficient than car B in same price range, then I admit car A definitely fuel efficient.

If car A fuel efficient than car B, but different price range, I dont really think car A is fuel efficient as the comparison is not fair to begin with.

U pay more u get more features la right including much more fuel efficient car. No?.
*
my point is just very simple. i drove a saga blm before (so speaking as an ex-owner)
the car has a poor fuel economy (regardless of city or highway, it still wun be stellar. it is just below average compared to most cars with similar engine size or similar price point)
turning back time, given the choice i had at that time, i would still buy the same car though because it is a rather comfortable car to drive and sit in. but wanting to buy it again, does not deny the fact, that it guzzles fuel.

it's like.. i buy a myvi, then i say, it has rather poor handling.. then you come tell me, it's a myvi, sure la handling wun be as good as a civic.
it's not like we trying to compare it up against a different class of car. in a game of pros and cons, myvi has poorer handling capability, but better fuel economy and perhaps reliability also.

sometimes we gotta say the pros and cons, because the potential owner, needs to know about it, and then live with it.
personally, i like to know the bad points about the car (which part is sub average) and then decide, whether or not i can live with it.
if there is a car, with the power delivery that i want, the handling that i want, but the car seat is uncomfortable for me (perhaps not suitable for ppl of my height)
then i would have to forgo this car. because the uncomfortable seat will annoy me from day 1 till the day i sell the car.

but if the car has comfort, and handling, but poor power delivery. i may still accept it, because i don't zoom zoom on the road anyway. it may be a cons to other ppl, but it's something that i can live with..
sometimes we share the cons, so others can evaluate, and see if it is a deal breaker for them or not. some ppl just cannot accept poor fc car and will complain about it every single day

though i must say, halfway through my ownership of the saga blm, i've encountered some accident and poor repair job made the car unreliable. on top of that, the poor fc and my poor financial condition at that time, made the car rather undesirable for me at that point.

if the car was repaired properly, and with my current financial condition, i would not gripe that much about the car fc today, like i did back then. i would just learn to live with the poor fc.
DS51
post Jun 17 2021, 05:08 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jun 17 2021, 03:43 PM)
I was referring to Big car vs small car. MyVi and Axia are about the same size but different engine size.

wow. taichi to the max. kerb weight not the same tho. 😁😁
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This post has been edited by DS51: Jun 17 2021, 05:26 PM
Zot
post Jun 17 2021, 05:35 PM

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QUOTE(DS51 @ Jun 17 2021, 05:08 PM)

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What taici?

I have done practical comparison myself.

My 2L engine (AWD) even though losing but the margin is not that much to Axia 1L.

You said you have small car. Have you done comparison apple to apple? I your luxury car can beat your small 1L car then I cannot say much, but so far all my comparison still won by smaller car because it is lighter. However, my 2.5L also did not lost that much Of course better response but that is not the criteria here.
dogbert_chew
post Jun 17 2021, 11:45 PM

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My Axia E does 15-16km/l pure city and 17-18km/l mix city highway and my old Prius did both above 20km/l

Different technology makes size irrelevant?
mffa
post Jun 18 2021, 09:58 AM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ Jun 17 2021, 11:45 PM)
My Axia E does 15-16km/l pure city and 17-18km/l mix city highway and my old Prius did both above 20km/l

Different technology makes size irrelevant?
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Definitely..But technology come with a price. Those who afford the asking price definitely will reap the benefit from the technology advancement.

Can see from video below how bigger, heavier, powerful car can be as efficient as small, lighter, underpowered car. Yeah, back to technology which come with asking price.



This post has been edited by mffa: Jun 18 2021, 09:58 AM

 

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