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> Proton Saga vs Proton Persona vs Beeza, Which one worth to buy ?

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Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 05:51 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 7 2021, 05:04 PM)
So your logic is 64kph Iriz did worse but at higher speed it can do better? Should it be around that at lower speed it should score higher if it got better chassis? Better to understand how Asean NCAP result is done.
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No.

I'm saying both scored differently based on different testing and scoring methods and even assuming both are same methods, the decimal point scored by both cars are negligible.

Yes I even purposely went to their website to download all the documents (hence I stand corrected on the collision speeds) to find out their test methods.

Pre 2017 standards (which the Iriz was tested on) are no longer available.
They are pushing 2021- 2025 standards already.

I still stand by my previous post.
And we have no way to properly score both cars unless Proton willing to donate and re test the Iriz
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 05:54 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 12:59 PM)
I want to do a proper reply, but I think I'll just assume you P2 fanboy, easier
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I still stand by this as well.

At the end of the day BOTH cars are 5 stars even with different scoring.

Saying one car is better than the other one using NCAP when both are 5 stars is a very vain comparison, no?
constant_weight
post May 7 2021, 06:22 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 05:54 PM)
I still stand by this as well.

At the end of the day BOTH cars are 5 stars even with different scoring.

Saying one car is better than the other one using NCAP when both are 5 stars is a very vain comparison, no?
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I have different opinions.

First frontal collision crash test from basic full frontal to the notorious 25% offset impact (not sure ANCAP has this), the car in particular the A pillar only need to support energy from its own weight. The lighter the car, the less strength the A pillar needs to be to be intact.

Second, we don't know which car designed just to meet the crash test requirement, and which car designed at higher standard since they are not tested at higher speed openly outside the manufacturer lab. So no way a car like Alza can be 4*, more like 1* since so many accidents involved Alza broken into half at B pillars.

Thus I think head on collision in the real world shows the true color. Call me bias, base on my guts and gamble, Iriz would survive better in Iris vs Myvi head on collision.

Another reason, which in this point I do agree with you that don't distracted by the decimals. Because the test is influenced by many things that have nothing to do with my own safety. For example pedestrian protection with soft bumper cover and hood. Half of the driver assist tests are at low speed not to hit the pedestrian and bikers.

Call me selfish, those are less important than how my family and I survive a crash. What I get is merely reduce my repair cost in low speed bump.

Lastly not to forget some agencies like US IIHS, and new China C-IASI "non-profit organization" are funded by insurance companies. The purpose is risk assessment for the insurance plan, thus the tests include slow 5mph accident repair cost, and again how likely you gotta kill someone because those are big money. So be extra caution when referencing result from those agencies.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 7 2021, 06:27 PM
zero5177
post May 7 2021, 06:27 PM

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QUOTE(littlefire @ May 7 2021, 11:21 AM)
Until today many still brainwash by Proton salesman that Persona/Iriz chassis is more better compare to Perodua Myvi..Asean NCAP for latest Myvi tell it is the more safer compare to Iriz even for crash test..

2017 Myvi

https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=3870

OFFSET FRONTAL TEST 14.79
SIDE IMPACT TEST 15.91

Proton IRIZ

https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=3553

OFFSET FRONTAL TEST 14.07
SIDE IMPACT TEST PASS

By looking at the Offset frontal test, latest Myvi already beat Iriz..
There is no official Persona crash test, but since Persona is still an extended version of Iriz so the safety should be similar to Iriz
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I'm talking about Rigidity, both car scores a good 5 star in aseancap with negligible differences in score, but the Persona chassis consist of HPF steel which is much rigid at 1,500 MPa about 3 times sturdier compared to Myvi's high tensile steel of just around 590MPa? You may argue slightly more in aseancap score is still more, but for accident that went beyond aseancap measures, harder frame in general will be better (Or else we will be seeing manufacturer reduce their chassis strength to 590Mpa at highest and makes Perodua Myvi the safest car)

Plus that still doesn't change the fact that a sturdy chassis makes a better handling car, which also translates to easier maneuverability so you doesn't need to rely too much on active safety feature, although it is not measurable in paper, but u can't deny that Persona drives better than the Myvi.
TSchuan30378
post May 7 2021, 11:18 PM

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QUOTE(roybreaker @ May 6 2021, 10:58 PM)
Personally, whenever I look at the Persona, it reminds me of bloated frog. The reason they did such design is to give more space for rear passengers.
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rclxm9.gif rclxm9.gif rclxm9.gif haha, i also like the Saga booty than the persona
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 11:33 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 7 2021, 06:22 PM)
I have different opinions.

First frontal collision crash test from basic full frontal to the notorious 25% offset impact (not sure ANCAP has this), the car in particular the A pillar only need to support energy from its own weight. The lighter the car, the less strength the A pillar needs to be to be intact.

Second, we don't know which car designed just to meet the crash test requirement, and which car designed at higher standard since they are not tested at higher speed openly outside the manufacturer lab. So no way a car like Alza can be 4*, more like 1* since so many accidents involved Alza broken into half at B pillars.

Thus I think head on collision in the real world shows the true color. Call me bias, base on my guts and gamble, Iriz would survive better in Iris vs Myvi head on collision.

Another reason, which in this point I do agree with you that don't distracted by the decimals. Because the test is influenced by many things that have nothing to do with my own safety. For example pedestrian protection with soft bumper cover and hood. Half of the driver assist tests are at low speed not to hit the pedestrian and bikers.

Call me selfish, those are less important than how my family and I survive a crash. What I get is merely reduce my repair cost in low speed bump.
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I believe we have similar opinions that in the end we are conveying a similar/same message - that safety is indeed a priority in the new Proton cars. With perhaps you able to convey that message better than i did, or maybe from a different perspective to cover from another angle.

to answer on your doubts:
- ANCAP i think no full frontal, only 40% offset. so you can't exactly test the Iriz a pillar strong point either lol (which both cars are fairly unharmed)
- there's documentations (on ANCAP site) on that for donor /test car legitimacy but eh i would rather leave that variable out to save a headache
- my post was worded and structured as such because i do not have other solid objective numbers besides what was pointed out on ANCAP which is the initial trigger on this discussion. However i am calling that out because it simply does not make sense (at least to me) to call a car safe (or otherwise) over another car when both of them score about the same points, both at 5 stars, despite being tested on 2 different standards (2014 vs 2017 -2020, which hopefully both cars go through the new 2021-2025 standards)

going back to my post, i did urged him 2 major things:
1) look out for real world post crash aftermath between Iriz and Myvi
a key take away: one is a year 2014 car another is 2017, shouldn't the 2017 be better and safer?
2) do braking test on the 2 cars. littlefire focused on crash worthiness, however i took a step ahead and put out a point - why not prevent the crash altogether? i am a firm believer the Iriz will fare a MUCH HIGHER chance in crash prevention with far superior brakes and dampers. even both on the SAME EXACT tires same exact brand model size.

and of course being open minded but who am i kidding over an internet forum lol!
Quazacolt
post May 7 2021, 11:37 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 7 2021, 06:27 PM)
although it is not measurable in paper, but u can't deny that Persona drives better than the Myvi.
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CAN!
just people shy to do it!

braking 100- 0
braking 60-0
slalom test (or moose test? LOL!)
dry lap times test
wet lap times test

you can measure and attach a number on all 5 tests above.

the better performing car WILL be better at preventing an accident occurring in the first place!
constant_weight
post May 8 2021, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 11:37 PM)
CAN!
just people shy to do it!

braking 100- 0
braking 60-0
slalom test (or moose test? LOL!)
dry lap times test
wet lap times test

you can measure and attach a number on all 5 tests above.

the better performing car WILL be better at preventing an accident occurring in the first place!
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Yes, safety measures should be driver -> pure mechanical grip -> handling -> active safety -> passive safety.

I think moose test is a good test on ability to mitigate danger by a conventional driver. It mainly tests the pure mechanical grip and ESC/ESP program. So take your track experience hat off for a while, when in danger normal driver more likely just flick the steering by instinct without braking, or brake all the way but not turning enough. There will not be controlled braking to initiate weight transfer and turn.

constant_weight
post May 8 2021, 08:50 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 7 2021, 11:33 PM)
2) do braking test on the 2 cars. littlefire focused on crash worthiness, however i took a step ahead and put out a point - why not prevent the crash altogether? i am a firm believer the Iriz will fare a MUCH HIGHER chance in crash prevention with far superior brakes and dampers. even both on the SAME EXACT tires same exact brand model size.

and of course being open minded but who am i kidding over an internet forum lol!
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I think focus on crash worthiness is not an issue. The issue is obsessed with the numbers, splitting the hair. First as you said, different standards/versions. Second, something that I keep telling people around me, there are cars made just to pass the test, and car made with safety in mind from various aspects not just the crash test.

This can be observed when the standards are revised, some car passing new one just fine. Some need minor touch. Some will not be 5* until a whole new generation with new platform.

Then weight plays important factor. Heavier cars need to support more weights in the crash, will always be stronger. In the real world is not everyone take turns to hit a wall, right? LOL

Lastly take it as a pinch of salt when looking at the aggregated score and number of stars. That is influenced by tests I mentioned in earlier post and are not related to my own safety.

This is where our differences are. I'm not being objective, do not have numbers. I just genuinely believe P2 are not as safe as P1 and other city car like Kia Rio, Suzuki Swift etc, the worst being Alza. P2 is best keep for city use, 40-60km/h.

Honda BR-V, Toyota Sienta, I did not check the safety data, but not something I would like to be in for highway long distance travel base on the limited time I spent in Grab. The ride felt like Alza, not stable.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: May 8 2021, 09:01 AM
Quazacolt
post May 8 2021, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ May 8 2021, 08:50 AM)
Suzuki Swift etc, the worst being Alza. P2 is best keep for city use, 40-60km/h.
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Yeah agreed.

Btw Swift here would score poorly overall cuz no ESC tongue.gif
And new one (so far only sport) seems like a dead on arrival, somemore only auto wtf laugh.gif

But eh you see how many heroes are with their P2, I'd probably just attribute it to more popular more owner of the car, more rotten eggs lol

Like how God car used to be (if you've been around LYN years back)
ru40342
post May 8 2021, 01:45 PM

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I have both myvi 2nd gen and latest proton saga at home. I drive both regularly.

If I were in a dangerous situation, I would much rather be in the proton saga. It handles better so I might be able to avoid collision and it drives better so I have more confidence to maneuver the car to avoid the collision. If I really couldn't avoid collision, I don't think saga would be worse off compared to myvi.
Najmods
post May 8 2021, 09:14 PM

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I'm in the same situation as yours, I'm taking Saga mostly because of the looks. Persona looks very weird, Bezza too (one looks like lipas the other one tonggek) because both of them are extended version of the hatchback (Iriz and Axia respectively). I just can't think of buying something so ugly to my eyes. Saga is the cheapest of the bunch and ticks most of what I wanted (normal auto box, not too much electronics like stop-start, start button etc)
TSchuan30378
post May 8 2021, 11:02 PM

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QUOTE(ru40342 @ May 8 2021, 01:45 PM)
I have both myvi 2nd gen and latest proton saga at home. I drive both regularly.

If I were in a dangerous situation, I would much rather be in the proton saga. It handles better so I might be able to avoid collision and it drives better so I have more confidence to maneuver the car to avoid the collision. If I really couldn't avoid collision, I don't think saga would be worse off compared to myvi.
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Thx for the comment rclxms.gif
TSchuan30378
post May 8 2021, 11:03 PM

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QUOTE(Najmods @ May 8 2021, 09:14 PM)
I'm in the same situation as yours, I'm taking Saga mostly because of the looks. Persona looks very weird, Bezza too (one looks like lipas the other one tonggek) because both of them are extended version of the hatchback (Iriz and Axia respectively). I just can't think of buying something so ugly to my eyes. Saga is the cheapest of the bunch and ticks most of what I wanted (normal auto box, not too much electronics like stop-start, start button etc)
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Haha, lipas look ??? Tonggek wats is it? lizard ? biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
zero5177
post May 8 2021, 11:12 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 8 2021, 12:05 PM)
Yeah agreed.

Btw Swift here would score poorly overall cuz no ESC tongue.gif
And new one (so far only sport) seems like a dead on arrival, somemore only auto wtf laugh.gif

But eh you see how many heroes are with their P2, I'd probably just attribute it to more popular more owner of the car, more rotten eggs lol

Like how God car used to be (if you've been around LYN years back)
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Off topic sikit, how do you think of the current Yaris? Don't find much data on current Vios & Asia Yaris body structure,
just found mention of more High tensile steel usage (50% current vs 30% previous) and saw some reviews here and there stating the chassis felt more rigid even from Dares hmm.gif can I assume High tensile steel usage = to somewhere 500-ish MPa max?
Quazacolt
post May 9 2021, 12:55 AM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 8 2021, 11:12 PM)
Off topic sikit, how do you think of the current Yaris? Don't find much data on current Vios & Asia Yaris body structure,
just found mention of more High tensile steel usage (50% current vs 30% previous) and saw some reviews here and there stating the chassis felt more rigid even from Dares  hmm.gif can I assume High tensile steel usage = to somewhere 500-ish MPa max?
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Sorry I didn't really dig info on the chassis stiffness.

I did test driven it and only pushed a little until the SA protesting some very brief/minor tire music sad.gif

It's dampers are definitely on the softer side, road deformations are more plush compared to the Persona/Iriz.

However the drawback is performance/road holding especially if you need faster directional changes. Low speed compressions I think not too much difference especially on long sweepers, however I wasn't able to test the Yaris on higher >100kph speeds to properly compared it against the Persona so I could be very wrong.

Bear in mind both Yaris and Proton Iriz/Persona dampers are straightforward/simple dampers on a budget. So it's really a give and take how much comfort vs performance. Gain some lose some.

Then there's the odd ball Myvi dampers that's made out of paper or something. Until non car person like my sister asking me if the suspensions Kong. (On a new ish show room test car lol! laugh.gif)

She gotten the Persona in the end because she couldn't justify the 20-30k RM to go for a Toyota badge.
The 360 camera is indeed cool, but is it worth 30k cool? Probably not.
Najmods
post May 9 2021, 06:54 AM

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QUOTE(chuan30378 @ May 8 2021, 11:03 PM)
Haha, lipas look ??? Tonggek wats is it? lizard ?  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif
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Its just the proprtion of the car looks weird, Bezza looks too high from behind with skinny tires especially with the new facelift. Persona too, looks like a fish or cockroach from behind laugh.gif
zero5177
post May 9 2021, 06:04 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 9 2021, 12:55 AM)
Sorry I didn't really dig info on the chassis stiffness.

I did test driven it and only pushed a little until the SA protesting some very brief/minor tire music sad.gif

It's dampers are definitely on the softer side, road deformations are more plush compared to the Persona/Iriz.

However the drawback is performance/road holding especially if you need faster directional changes. Low speed compressions I think not too much difference especially on long sweepers, however I wasn't able to test the Yaris on higher >100kph speeds to properly compared it against the Persona so I could be very wrong.

Bear in mind both Yaris and Proton Iriz/Persona dampers are straightforward/simple dampers on a budget. So it's really a give and take how much comfort vs performance. Gain some lose some.

Then there's the odd ball Myvi dampers that's made out of paper or something. Until non car person like my sister asking me if the suspensions Kong. (On a new ish show room test car lol! laugh.gif)

She gotten the Persona in the end because she couldn't justify the 20-30k RM to go for a Toyota badge.
The 360 camera is indeed cool, but is it worth 30k cool? Probably not.
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Thanks for your opinion especially on the drive, I still did not get to test drive 1, only few thing that made me lean towards Yaris is because:-
1. I already own a Persona
2. Initially booked for X50 but doesn't seems to be able to arrive anytime soon (waited 6 months)
3. Yaris have Blind spot monitor, 360 cam, forward collision warning & assist and the Android auto/carplay ready and I also find it convenient that it has Eco Tint + Dashcam preinstalled which is pretty convenient.
4. Looking for a decent hatchback.

Still some drawbacks from taking Yaris IMO:-
1. Not known for structure rigidity due to really old platform, not TNGA based.
2. Underperforming engine output for current generation & the money spent.
3. No auto cruise & autonomous assist.
4. Fabric seat.
5. Rather small interior and bootspace practically not as good for a hatch (folded seat is not flat, there is obvious bump from the boot to seat area).

Speaking of headroom, no car in this segment can trump Iriz and Persona no matter you sat in front or at the back, this is the headroom that put even many C-segment to shame.


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post May 9 2021, 06:31 PM

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QUOTE(zero5177 @ May 9 2021, 06:04 PM)
still did not get to test drive 1,

1. I already own a Persona
2. Initially booked for X50
4. Looking for a decent hatchback.

Still some drawbacks from taking Yaris IMO:-
1.  not TNGA based.
2. Underperforming engine output
3. No auto cruise & autonomous assist.
4. Fabric seat.
5. Rather small interior and bootspace practically not as good for a hatch (folded seat is not flat, there is obvious bump from the boot to seat area).

*
Would like to read your opinion on the Ativa as an alternative to Yaris, Cheers
zero5177
post May 9 2021, 08:05 PM

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QUOTE(dogbert_chew @ May 9 2021, 06:31 PM)
Would like to read your opinion on the Ativa as an alternative to Yaris, Cheers
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I tried the Ativa even made booking at launch, but in the end I cancelled the option due to:-

1. Uncomfortable backseat, lack of support, quite upright and very short thigh support.
2. No 360 camera.
3. Not a fan of that engine, Driven Axia before the FC wasn't impressive (Just about 2-3km/l better than Persona MT), I doubt the addition of Turbo on the single VVT will hv convincing FC since the engine is very closely related to Axia's
4. No Android Auto/Carplay.
5. Smaller interior than expected.
6. Not really favor the design & especially the front grill and the lack of DRL (Body kit is too ugly for me).
7. Mediocre sound system.

Not much opinion on the drive since it was a very brief drive, it was ok-ish for me in general, no wow factor for me.

Not meant to bash any Ativa taker, just that it is not up to my expectation, even the X50 have a few flaws for me especially when compared to China's variant sad.gif

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