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> Muslim convert mum’s appeal for children’s uni

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TSJustin.Loong
post Mar 25 2021, 04:26 PM, updated 3 months ago

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The Court of Appeal today deferred hearing the appeal by a Muslim convert mother against a High Court’s 2018 decision to quash her unilateral conversion of her two children to Islam.
This was due to one of the judges on the Court of Appeal’s three-member bench voluntarily disclosing that he knows the Muslim convert mother and the Buddhist father in this case.

Just before the appeal hearing could start today, Court of Appeal judge Datuk Vazeer Alam Mydin Meera this morning put on record that he would like to recuse himself from hearing the court case as he knows both the parents in this case, as it would not be proper for him to hear the case.

Datuk Lau Bee Lan, the judge who was chairing the Court of Appeal panel, then fixed June 29 as the new hearing date for the appeal.
Datuk Mohd Sofian Abd Razak was the other Court of Appeal judge on the panel today.

Previously, Court of Appeal judge Datuk Mary Lim Thiam Suan had also recused herself from hearing this appeal on June 25, 2019 as she was involved in previous court matters related to the couple in this case.
user posted image
Source: Appeal against decision to quash children's unilateral conversion postponed after judge recuses herself from case  June 25, 2019

In this case, the mother is challenging her Buddhist ex-husband’s successful bid at the High Court in 2018 to quash their two children’s unilateral conversion to Islam.
Also appealing in this case is the Federal Territories Registrar of Muslim Converts.

The High Court had on May 21, 2018 ordered for the names and images of the mother who had converted from Buddhism to Islam, and the Buddhist father, as well as their two children to not be published. The names of all four individuals are withheld.

Background of the case
On June 14, 2016, the Buddhist father had filed his court challenge through a judicial review application against five respondents, namely the Federal Territories Islamic Religious Department (Jawi) director-general, the Federal Territories Registrar of Muslim Converts, the education ministry director-general, the government of Malaysia and the Muslim convert mother.

On October 16, 2018, the High Court had granted two of the court orders sought by the Buddhist father, including the quashing of the two children’s conversion of religion and quashing of the decision by both the Jawi director-general and the FT Registrar of Muslim converts to issue the “Kad Akuan Agama Islam” or certificates of conversion on May 11, 2016 to the two children.
user posted image

The High Court also granted a mandamus order to compel both the Jawi director-general and the FT Registrar of Muslim converts to cancel the registration of the children as Muslim converts in their records or Muslim converts’ register.

The couple who were both initially Buddhists had married in a civil marriage in 2006, and had two children. The wife converted to Islam on December 29, 2015 while the couple was going through a divorce.

This court case was sparked off as a result of the conversion of the two children, then aged eight and three, to Islam on May 11, 2016 without the father’s knowledge and consent.

The father filed a fresh application for the divorce on May 11, 2016 under the required section. The High Court in April 2018 dissolved the marriage and granted the mother the sole guardianship and custody of the two children, while the Court of Appeal in September 2018 reversed the decision and granted sole guardianship, custody, care and control of the two children to the father.

In January 2020, the Federal Court rejected the mother’s application for leave to appeal the granting of custody to the father. This means that the two children will remain with the father.
The two children are now aged 13 and eight.

It is understood that the only court matter now is the appeal regarding the religious status of the two children.

The Buddhist father’s lawyers confirmed to reporters today that there was no court order for a stay but that all parties had agreed not to enforce the High Court’s decision — which had quashed the children’s unilateral conversion to Islam — until the appeal has been heard and decided by the Court of Appeal.

The Muslim convert mother was represented today by lawyers Arham Rahimy Hariri, Rohani Ibrahim and Nurul Ameera Sam Kamaruddin, while the Federal Territories Registrar of Muslim Converts were represented by lawyers Datuk Sulaiman Abdullah, Nizam Bashir, Zulkifli Che Yong, Azmi Mohd Rais and Mohamad Ikmal Ibrahim.

The Buddhist father was represented by lawyers K. Shanmuga, Honey Tan Lay Ean, Tay Kit Hoo, Kee Hui Yee.

Senior federal counsels Rosli Ahmad and Siti Asmath Che Man appeared for the three respondents who did not appeal but are part of the case, namely Federal Territories Islamic Religious Department (Jawi) director-general, the education ministry director-general, the government of Malaysia.
Lawyer Tan Kim Kek was present to hold a watching brief for the Malaysian Bar.

Earlier when Court of Appeal judge Vazeer Alam recused himself from hearing this case, Shanmuga had stood up to inform the court that lawyers were not aware that he knew the parents in this case.
Later, Arham Rahimy confirmed to reporters that the other lawyers too did not know of it and only knew about it when the judge voluntarily recused himself.

Arham Rahimy said that the Buddhist father’s lawyers will be seeking to cite new Federal Court judgements in other cases, namely the case relating to the successful bid by a Selangor woman born to a Muslim man and a Buddhist woman out of wedlock to be declared a non-Muslim, as well as a case where a Selangor state law’s provision was declared as invalid and unconstitutional as it touched on offences that fall under Parliament’s powers to make laws.

Arham Rahimy said that the Muslim convert mother’s lawyers will be seeking in this appeal to have the courts revisit the Federal Court’s decision in Hindu mother M. Indira Gandhi’s case which had quashed her Muslim convert ex-husband’s unilateral conversion of their three children to Islam without her knowledge and her consent.
Source: Muslim convert mum’s appeal for children’s unilateral conversion to Islam postponed after another judge recuses self
TSJustin.Loong
post Mar 26 2021, 10:31 AM

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A Chinese Malaysian woman today was granted leave to continue having the courts hear her bid to be declared a Buddhist and to have a new identity card issued to her without the label “Islam”.
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The woman, who will be 41 this year, is also seeking for her new identity card to restore her original name before her Muslim convert father had unilaterally converted her into Islam as a then 10-year-old child.

The woman had filed her legal challenge late last year through a judicial review application. Her name, as well as her parents’ names, have been withheld for privacy purposes.

High Court judge Datuk Seri Mariana Yahya today granted leave for the judicial review, which means that the court will proceed to hear the case on its merits before deciding on whether or not to grant the orders she is seeking.

Senior federal counsel Ahmad Hanir Hambaly confirmed that leave was granted today, and said the case will come up for case management on April 8. Federal counsel Mohamad Sallehuddin Md Ali also appeared for the Attorney General’s Chambers.

Born in Singapore in 1980 to a Chinese couple both of the Buddhist faith, the woman said that her father in February 1990 converted to Islam and in October 1990 registered her with the Selangor Islamic Religious Department (Jais) as a Muslim when she was aged 10 and that she was then given a new name.

However, the woman said that her mother had never became a Muslim, and that her mother had never given permission to the father to change her religion as a child from Buddhism to Islam. The couple later divorced in 1993. The woman said the Selangor Islamic Religious Council (Mais) did not ask her mother's consent before registering her as a child as a Muslim.


Since turning 18 or becoming an adult in 1998, the woman said she has been practising Buddhism and is also living with her mother.
The woman said she had never professed or practised the Islam faith and that she had never uttered the “shahadah” or the Muslim proclamation of faith when one embraces Islam, while also saying that the National Registration Department does not have records to show that she had became a Muslim after turning 18.

On August 24, 2020, the woman said she had renounced the use of her current name and had made a statutory declaration to seek for a new MyKad to restore her original name and had also sought for the word “Islam” to be dropped from the replacement identity card.

On August 28, 2020, the woman applied at the NRD's Ipoh branch in Perak for the replacement identity card, but an NRD counter officer refused to accept and process the application unless she produced orders from the Shariah High Court.

After receiving no response from the NRD to an October 2020 letter of demand seeking for the new identity card, the woman on November 12, 2020 filed for judicial review against the NRD director-general, the Malaysian government and the Selangor Islamic Religious Council (Mais).

What the application is seeking
In her judicial review application, the woman is seeking for six court orders, including a declaration that she is a Buddhist and two separate mandamus orders to compel the NRD director-general to register the change of her name to her original name and to issue a replacement identity card with her original name in line with the National Registration Regulations 1990.

The six court orders sought also include a mandamus order to direct the NRD director-general to drop the word “Islam” from the replacement identity card in line with the same 1990 regulations, and a mandamus order to direct the Malaysian government to ensure the NRD gives full effect to such orders, and a mandamus order to direct Mais to delete the woman's name from the Registrer of Muallafs or Muslim converts and to cancel the card of conversion to Islam that was issued by Mais in her name in October 1990.

In the judicial review application, the woman had cited the Federal Court's decision in a case involving Hindu mother M. Indira Gandhi's successful bid to quash her Muslim convert ex-husband's unilateral conversion of their three children to Islam without their knowledge and without her consent.
user posted image

The Federal Court had in that case said the term “parent” in the Federal Constitution's Article 12(4) referred to both parents if they were still alive and capable of giving consent to a child's religion.

Under Article 12(4), it is stated that the religion of a person under the age of 18 shall be decided by his “parent or guardian”.
user posted image

The woman argued that the Federal Court's decision in Indira Gandhi's case meant that the October 1990 certificate of embracing Islam issued to her by Jais on her father's request but without her mother's consent when she was only aged 10 is invalid.
user posted image

She also said that she was free to choose any religion without influence from anyone when she turned 18, adding that she chose to practise Buddhism.

Asserting that she was never a Muslim, the woman said the NRD's act of asking her to obtain an order from the Syariah High Court first before applying for a new identity card with her original name and without the word “Islam” is an act of unconstitutionality, illegality, irrationality and tainted with procedural impropriety.

The woman also said the actions by NRD and Mais had caused her to be deprived of her right to religious freedom even though such rights are guaranteed by the Malaysian government. Under Article 11(1) of the Federal Constitution, every person has the right to profess and practise his religion.

In a November 2020 affidavit, her 71-year-old mother confirmed the facts provided, stating that she had never given her consent to the now ex-husband to change their child's religion from Buddhism to Islam, further affirming that Mais had not asked her consent before registering her child as a Muslim.
The mother also confirmed that she has been living with her child since the latter turned 18, and said that her child has only been professing and practising Buddhism since the latter became an adult at the age of 18.

The Attorney General's Chambers (AGC) had previously objected to the woman's application for leave for judicial review, citing three reasons, including that her challenge was allegedly out of time as it should have been filed within three months from her October 1990 conversion to Islam.

The AGC had also objected to the woman's lawsuit by saying that the civil High Court has no jurisdiction to grant her the court orders due to the Federal Constitution's Article 121 (1A), arguing that the matter is allegedly tantamount to a declaration of someone no longer being a Muslim that would fall under the Shariah court's jurisdiction.

The AGC had also objected by saying that the woman had no “arguable case” for review of the NRD's decision to refuse to process her application for a replacement identity card without an order from the Syariah High Court, citing the Federal Court's decision in Lina Joy's case which also involved a bid to have “Islam” removed from the applicant's identity card.user posted image
Source: Court allows Chinese Malaysian woman unilaterally converted as child to pursue bid to be declared Buddhist and have ‘Islam’ dropped from IC
Zozi
post Mar 26 2021, 01:13 PM

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Sorry, but what's the topic of discussion do you seek here?

I am aware of the news, just unsure on what's the topic here. Without a topic, I'm afraid this thread just won't start.
ramz
post Mar 26 2021, 01:26 PM

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QUOTE(Zozi @ Mar 26 2021, 01:13 PM)
Sorry, but what's the topic of discussion do you seek here?

I am aware of the news, just unsure on what's the topic here. Without a topic, I'm afraid this thread just won't start.
*
Why does the Malaysian government make it so complicated for muslims to change religion? Just change lah. Since Malaysia make it so complicating in capturing religion info in the IC, don't further complicate it. Just update IC upon request. Done.

What is the issue of muslims changing religion? No issue babe. The apostate did not cause any harm to other humans. Waste tax payer's money only go to court and shit. Malaysia dah miskin.


Zozi
post Mar 26 2021, 01:32 PM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Mar 26 2021, 01:26 PM)
Why does the Malaysian government make it so complicated for muslims to change religion? Just change lah. Since Malaysia make it so complicating in capturing religion info in the IC, don't further complicate it.  Just update IC upon request. Done.

What is the issue of muslims changing religion? No issue babe. The apostate did not cause any harm to other humans. Waste tax payer's money only go to court and shit. Malaysia dah miskin.
*
ntahlah. In fact, I think if they had been more lenient/liberal, it woulda piqued more people's interest hmm.gif

But yeah, I do agree that all these hoo-haa because of some people wishing to change their religion in their IC is unwarranted.

Not as if the almighty will go;

"Dik, sini jap, tunjuk IC ko...oh Islam eh? Okay2, masuk masuk...pintu syurga ni.... NEXTT"

Whether or not one is a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, etc are all in their heart and practice. Not what's written on the IC.
ramz
post Mar 26 2021, 01:53 PM

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QUOTE(Zozi @ Mar 26 2021, 01:32 PM)
ntahlah. In fact, I think if they had been more lenient/liberal, it woulda piqued more people's interest  hmm.gif

But yeah, I do agree that all these hoo-haa because of some people wishing to change their religion in their IC is unwarranted.

Not as if the almighty will go;

"Dik, sini jap, tunjuk IC ko...oh Islam eh? Okay2, masuk masuk...pintu syurga ni.... NEXTT"

Whether or not one is a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, etc are all in their heart and practice. Not what's written on the IC.
*

Islam wants to meddle in everything. From politics, law, gatekeeping, managing non muslims and toilet manners.
TSJustin.Loong
post Mar 26 2021, 05:33 PM

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QUOTE(Zozi @ Mar 26 2021, 01:13 PM)
Sorry, but what's the topic of discussion do you seek here?

I am aware of the news, just unsure on what's the topic here. Without a topic, I'm afraid this thread just won't start.
*
QUOTE(ramz @ Mar 26 2021, 01:26 PM)
Why does the Malaysian government make it so complicated for muslims to change religion? Just change lah. Since Malaysia make it so complicating in capturing religion info in the IC, don't further complicate it.  Just update IC upon request. Done.

What is the issue of muslims changing religion? No issue babe. The apostate did not cause any harm to other humans. Waste tax payer's money only go to court and shit. Malaysia dah miskin.
*
Zozi as per the above mentioned by ramz.
Why make things so complicated for people especially those who were unilaterally converted. sweat.gif
TSJustin.Loong
post Mar 26 2021, 05:40 PM

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QUOTE(Zozi @ Mar 26 2021, 01:32 PM)
ntahlah. In fact, I think if they had been more lenient/liberal, it woulda piqued more people's interest  hmm.gif

But yeah, I do agree that all these hoo-haa because of some people wishing to change their religion in their IC is unwarranted.

Not as if the almighty will go;

"Dik, sini jap, tunjuk IC ko...oh Islam eh? Okay2, masuk masuk...pintu syurga ni.... NEXTT"

Whether or not one is a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, etc are all in their heart and practice. Not what's written on the IC.
*
+1 with your remark. nod.gif
IMHO, if a person was born in a particular religion and wants to change to another religion, then certain authorities should not be making things difficult.
If one already loses their faith in "original" religion and wants to venture into another, then just let them go. innocent.gif
borgeouisbella
post Mar 28 2021, 03:17 AM

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That’s because its a numbers game for the politicians.

Im fairly sure there are many labelled Muslims on official documents but do not care nor practice the religion at all. But if these numbers would be reflected on official documents, then the politicians can’t sell the Malay-Muslim narrative for the suckers who keeps eating whatever the politicians throw at them.
touristking
post Mar 28 2021, 06:41 AM

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QUOTE(borgeouisbella @ Mar 27 2021, 08:17 PM)
That’s because its a numbers game for the politicians.

Im fairly sure there are many labelled Muslims on official documents but do not care nor practice the religion at all. But if these numbers would be reflected on official documents, then the politicians can’t sell the Malay-Muslim narrative for the suckers who keeps eating whatever the politicians throw at them.
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You should check out the definition of Malay in the constitution



borgeouisbella
post Mar 28 2021, 06:51 AM

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QUOTE(touristking @ Mar 28 2021, 06:41 AM)
You should check out the definition of Malay in the constitution
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Does it matter? This topic is about why they refuse to let Muslims commit apostasy.

Not all Muslims are Malays, same goes for Bumiputeras, and yet they make it so hard for those in Sabah/Sarawak and Chinese/Indians who were converted either due to administrative error or unilateral conversions by divorced parents or even failed marriages to leave.

It’s all a numbers game.

Also, who in their right mind thinks a 3yo kid will know or care about Islam?

touristking
post Mar 28 2021, 06:58 AM

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QUOTE(borgeouisbella @ Mar 27 2021, 11:51 PM)
Does it matter? This topic is about why they refuse to let Muslims commit apostasy.

Not all Muslims are Malays, same goes for Bumiputeras, and yet they make it so hard for those in Sabah/Sarawak and Chinese/Indians who were converted either due to administrative error or unilateral conversions by divorced parents or even failed marriages to leave.

It’s all a numbers game.

Also, who in their right mind thinks a 3yo kid will know or care about Islam?
*
It matters a lot. Even illegal migrants who fitted the definition of Malay in the constitution got issued Malaysia IC
alhelmy
post Mar 29 2021, 04:22 AM

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QUOTE(borgeouisbella @ Mar 28 2021, 06:51 AM)
Does it matter? This topic is about why they refuse to let Muslims commit apostasy.

Not all Muslims are Malays, same goes for Bumiputeras, and yet they make it so hard for those in Sabah/Sarawak and Chinese/Indians who were converted either due to administrative error or unilateral conversions by divorced parents or even failed marriages to leave.

It’s all a numbers game.

Also, who in their right mind thinks a 3yo kid will know or care about Islam?
*
There isn't any need for numbers, they are already numerical superior.

If they are unable to achieve what they want, they should perhaps make use of where they are now to claim some fatt choy benefits where applicable.



kllonely1
post Mar 29 2021, 05:39 AM

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QUOTE(Justin.Loong @ Mar 25 2021, 04:26 PM)
salah betina,
dia sendiri gatal nak masuk,
kenapa nak heret anak-anak masuk?
ramz
post Mar 29 2021, 07:32 AM

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QUOTE(kllonely1 @ Mar 29 2021, 05:39 AM)
salah betina,
dia sendiri gatal nak masuk,
kenapa nak heret anak-anak masuk?
*
Ini salah kerajaan as the root cause. Coz dalam IC kenapa tak ada option "no religion", or ""to be determined"? Anak yang bawah umur can't say what religion he possess. So is not right to make them muslim in the first place. Coz bila dah cukup umur, kalau IC sudah Islam , tak boleh tukar jadi ugama lain without involving a lengthy process in court.

Tapi betul salah betina. The right way is ajar la anak anak nya Islam betul betul. Don't involve the government. Nanti anak sudah besar ikut suka mereka lah nak masuk Islam atau kekal sebagai Buddhist. Anak kan ada otak sendiri. Apa susah.


Zozi
post Mar 30 2021, 08:50 AM

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QUOTE(Zozi @ Mar 26 2021, 01:32 PM)
ntahlah. In fact, I think if they had been more lenient/liberal, it woulda piqued more people's interest  hmm.gif

But yeah, I do agree that all these hoo-haa because of some people wishing to change their religion in their IC is unwarranted.

Not as if the almighty will go;

"Dik, sini jap, tunjuk IC ko...oh Islam eh? Okay2, masuk masuk...pintu syurga ni.... NEXTT"

Whether or not one is a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, etc are all in their heart and practice. Not what's written on the IC.
*
This post of mine got reported hmm.gif

Oh well...


Spear2
post Mar 30 2021, 09:03 AM

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QUOTE(Zozi @ Mar 30 2021, 08:50 AM)
This post of mine got reported  hmm.gif

Oh well...
*
I wish there is a feedback loop where forumer making continuous blatant reporting can be banned. The mod just removes most of the reported posts, maybe just to play safe? There are only a few posters making these reports ...
bluetomato
post Mar 31 2021, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Mar 30 2021, 09:03 AM)
I wish there is a feedback loop where forumer making continuous blatant reporting can be banned. The mod just removes most of the reported posts, maybe just to play safe? There are only a few posters making these reports ...
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You and me both know who the perpetrators are for the incessant post reporting.

On the topic : I think religion should be free to be adopted by the person as they see fit (and the actions of the woman to adopt the religion "for" the children is pretty abhorrent) , however entrenching and voicing out change in how religion is handled (especially Islam) is not always something that is taken lightly as it is sacred and any comments on it will invite the scorn of the people claiming to champion and defend the religion regardless of any merits the suggestions may hold.

This post has been edited by bluetomato: Mar 31 2021, 10:07 AM
touristking
post Mar 31 2021, 10:59 AM

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QUOTE(alhelmy @ Mar 28 2021, 09:22 PM)
There isn't any need for numbers, they are already numerical superior.

If they are unable to achieve what they want, they should perhaps make use of where they are now to claim some fatt choy benefits where applicable.
*
Matters a lot for East Malaysia. Malay are a minority there. So increasing number is important.


 

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