Anyone knows about Toshi new line-up A3500E? Heard about it from a shop in PJ but no display unit... appreciate for comments about it.

lets examine your point... if that's the case, why are LCD TVs promoting this 100HZ/120Hz and not plasmas? if such feature is really made primarily for anti judder 24Hz filmbased source.?

I think there are 2 main issues on implementing 100/120Hz, the main one is mostly to counter the motion blur/pixel lag primarily caused by LCD panels compared to plasma TV.

doing 5:5 pulldown is secondary benefit from double frame rate of a 120HZ TV cos the 100Hz version (obviously from PAL regions) won't be able to multiply 5 x 24 to 120.
besides, different manufacturers will have different frame interpolation technologies implemeted in this double Hz feature, so your milage may vary ..not all builtin 100/120Hz processors are equal..


on your other point of input signals, I get ya, but being able to accept a variety of input signals including the famed 1080p24 is essential especially when the next gen sources are already capable of outputting this in year 2007 (in the past, the arguement was there was no 1080p24 source so why bother), then no reason why a new range telly built in 07 onwards should be lagging behind in input signal options.

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Added on December 11, 2007, 12:30 pmyou assume the current 120HZ LCD TV will do 5:5 pull down from 24fps film based source? hope you are not one of those who think 1080p input means displaying 1080p output as well.

anyway excerpts from AVS


"Heres why I suspect you might be seeing judder.

When 24FPS film is converted to 60Hz 3:2 pulldown is done on the movie. This effectively interlaces the static image but also makes motion slightly smoother, and blurrier. Effectively this causes half the image to change roughly every 1/48th of a second (not exactly, but sort of). But basically at any given time no more than half the information is updated.

In 120Hz, they simply do 5:5 pulldown, or repeat each full frame 5 times. This means every 1/24 of a second a whole new frame is shown.

You might see Judder because you are seeing crisper edges during motion due to a lack of 3:2 pulldown, since 5:5 pulldown displays the whole frame change at once. Typically 5:5 is much preferred over 3:2 due to clarity in the whole frame being updated at once instead of field based updating, but its possible 5:5 pulldown disturbs you as much as 3:2 disturbs some other people.

Just be thankful were not in Europe on 50Hz, where they either just trash a frame.... or speed up a movie by 4.2% and just hope no one notices."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Krotchy,

That's a nice opinion, except for now there is NO 120hz panel actually doing 5:5 pulldown [24fps, with each original frame repeated 5 times]. Toshiba just released one that does, but it's only available in Japan currently (maybe the USA next year).

All of these "120hz" LCDs, are simply "refreshing", or doubling the current 60hz signal, by adding a newly processed frame [thru the processing chip's algorithm] between each "real" frame of the content [inside of the 3:2 pulldown process]. It's better, but definitely not the same as real 5:5 pulldown.

JVC's version of 120hz is now in its 2nd generation [new 898 series releasing this month, in 37", 42" & 47" 10-bit, 1080p panel sizes], which they dub "Clear Motion Drive II", and specifically designed for both horizontal and vertical 1080 resolution. Note: the previous 120hz version from late 2005 was only for vertical 720 resolution, in a 37" panel only.

JVC's version is combined with their excellent 32-bit Genessa processing chip, along with their great 5th generation D.I.S.T. scaler, and features accurate colors right out of the box.

See JVC's 2007 LCD displays here - http://tv.jvc.com/main.jsp - also for more info on JVC technology and features, view the company's 2007 Press Releases here - http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=917904

This post has been edited by ar188: Dec 11 2007, 12:32 PM

Since the topic is about LCD TV, there's where my main focus is on. LCD TVs are already going towards 100hz/120hz, so given the situation the best match for a judder free 24fps input would be a 120Hz TV.

But it doesn't mean 120Hz is the only option for 24fps. My main contention all along is that the best combination would be in multiples of 24 i.e - 48, 72, 96, 120hz.

Then again there is also no denying that other factors also contribute the smoothness of video. This is another topic in itself so I don't want to go into that.

As for Plasma TV, there already existed those with 72Hz before we started hearing about LCD TVs with 120hz. So that's one of the reasons why Plasma has a headstart in judder free 24fps input.

I might be wrong in some of my assessments, since you seem to know more than what I have been able to gather so far.

I am still in the learning process

This post has been edited by Ngto: Dec 11 2007, 01:59 PM

hopefully those JVC tv will come to our shore......
Thanks ar188 for your input.

This post has been edited by ICDeadPeople: Dec 11 2007, 02:07 PM

ICD and Ngto, all of us in same boat, me also learning process.. so many new tech to keep up..

anyway it's just a discussion, good to share info with fellow forumers..


I also initially thought 120HZ will benefit 24fps but looks like current LCD TVs do the doubling after the 3:2 process.. I was like WTF?...

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Added on December 11, 2007, 2:22 pmNgto, yeah, plasma 72Hz is for 3:3 pulldown on 24fps.

But I don't think able to do 120Hz yet esp 1080p, I think got some technical hurdles on plasma panel technology to improve 1st before able to get down to 120HZ (on the electronics processor side, no problem)..

This post has been edited by ar188: Dec 11 2007, 02:22 PM

Just received my new Toshiba Regza 32A35000....bought from the L shop at SS2...the price is Rm2,5xx
called Toshiba centre...the customer service don't know much about the difference....between A3000 and
A3500.... so far the different are
a) 2 HDMI input (A3500)
b) the stand different
c) speaker location slightly different!

others I am not sure...just buy it for watching Movies...don't really care about other features!!!

haha...dun worry mate...toshiba is quite good....some more..the shop u mentioned, is quite popular in ss2 n alwaz buang harga...haha..nice price man!

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Added on December 11, 2007, 6:24 pmby the way...fren...y u din buy from me? i m sell cheaper..2.4k

This post has been edited by adrian0229: Dec 11 2007, 06:24 PM

Isn't the above problem due to the DVD player itself which does a pulldown before sending the signal to the 120Hz TV.

With a Blu-ray player which can directly output pure 24fps to the 120Hz TV (with 24fps input) , wouldn't that result in smooth judder free video?

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Added on December 11, 2007, 7:37 pmWhat's the current price difference between the 3000 and the 3500?

This post has been edited by Ngto: Dec 11 2007, 07:37 PM

around 100bucks ++

to my understanding from the discussion in that forum, the current 120hz range of LCD, will take the 24fps make it to 3:2 (60HZ) and then double the frames to 120hz.. so there is no direct 5:5 pulldown. so really, the 120Hz feature is not designed primarily to reduce film to video judder but rather to solve the problem of LCD pixels long "hold" times causing LCD motion blurness.

from the forums again....
>>>>>>>>>
just to give you some actual technical info

from SID journals

"LCD Motion blur is a well known problem. Although many solutions have been proposed, some fundamental questions have not been answered yet. In this paper, we try to answer such questions. Specifically, we calculate the waveform and its blur width of a moving edge perceived on LCD screen for current LCD and the proposed four solutions of hold-type motion blur. We found that the slow response of current LCD is not a dominant factor of motion blur. The slow response of current LCD only contributes to 30% of the motion blur, while the hold-type rendering mode of LCD contributes to 70%. Therefore, fast LCD such as OCB itself does not significantly reduce motion blur. Fast LCD, on the other hand, is critical to the proposed three solutions of hold-type blur to avoid the ghosting artifact. With fast LCD, black data insertion and frame rate doubling can provide 50% reduction of motion blur. With both fast response LCD and fast backlight, backlight flashing can provide much higher reduction of motion blur. (C)2005 Society for Information Display "


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
So the problem is the hold time is too long, with no dead pixel time in between?
How does hold time compare with pixel response time, i.e. is there dead time between frames in a typical 60 hz LCD?
Traditional (typical) LCDs hold each pixel voltage on for the "entire" frame period. For 60Hz this means 16ms (1/60). For 120Hz this means 8ms. There is no "off" or "dead" time in between frames. This is the problem.

For a 60Hz CRT each frame period is still 16ms but each phosphor dot (equivilent to a pixel) is only illuminating for ~1.5 ms. Hence they are called "impulse" displays.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Added on December 11, 2007, 8:10 pmxrox
08-19-07, 07:56 PM
According to this article, the whole 120Hz thing really is meant as a workaround
for a particular flaw inherent to LCDs, thus it doesn't/shouldn't apply to plasmas:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainm...tion-290237.php

From the article:

"As video editor Geoff Morrison's piece explains, part of the blur perception
comes from the fact that, on standard LCDs, frames are frozen on the screen
for 1/60th of a second, and then abruptly shift to the next frame. This is called
"sample and hold." Other technologies like plasma and DLP don't hold the frame
for that whole 1/60th of a second, but pulse from one frame to the next, with
some healthy downtime. The obvious solution is to double the frame rate to 120Hz.

One 120Hz method simulates the other TV technologies by introducing that
downtime. Between each bright frame is a frame that's totally black or very
dim (as shown above). The rapid succession of bright and dark frames, 120
times per second, looks smooth to the eye, and keeps some of the LCD's
issues hidden in the darkness. This technique is the best, according to Morrison.
Alas, it is dying out.

The trouble with the method is that it reduces the prized brightness of an LCD.
It is a sad truth that, in the cutthroat world of Best Buy TV selling, the brightest
TV often wins.

the second method (shown below) is coming into vogue. Rather than splice in
black frames, LCD makers introduce a Photoshop-style interpolated frame,
basically a morphed midpoint between Frame 1 and Frame 3."

In other words, the current 120Hz processing is an artificial workaround and not a holy grail.As I said, the main purpose of 120Hz for LCDs is to reduce display time (as they put it "frozen on the screen") to 8.3 ms from 16.7 ms.

Plasma displays are also sample and hold but to a much smaller degree. Typical plasmas emit light for 4-6ms of a frame but may be longer as the ADS system spreads it over the frame time. Moving to 120Hz would reduce the display time for plasma to 2-3ms making motion perception even better. I have read research papers describing high refresh rate plasma. I will post it once I find it again

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=891862

This post has been edited by ar188: Dec 11 2007, 08:10 PM

So it's just the current crop which aren't doing it the proper way?

In time can I presume they will have direct 5:5 pulldown especially when 24fps HD movies start appearing in numbers?

WTF - !! belum lagi habis ngan 3:2 pull down - now datang pulak 5:5 pull down. anbelivebel!

Finally, Toshiba come out new model for 32 n 37 " Toshiba 32" 32A3500 and 37A3500. I bought 37" and now toshiba already add 2 HDMI .hahahhaa

take card boh? RM2.4k
haha~
btw where's ur shop location?

u got pm phelix...

btw..my shop is at cheras

Why not? I thought its a good discussion and can be educating too. Lots of people bought their tv just because its look good in the living room, than start complaining why their astro looks ugly and their dvd looks like tulang ikan. Atleast i can learn more from someone like ar188, ngto, and even you.
Besides, where else should we have this kind of discussion? Kopitiam?

LOL! or maybe realworld issues forum..

the L shop very famous hor... so cheap one?

yala...i oso tulan wif that shop dy...spoil market price only...
make me cnt earn money

bro,now u can get 37 inch toshiba brand new lcd model......the shop at puchong.