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 Insurance Talk V7!, Your one stop Insurance Discussion

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newtunes
post Jul 17 2023, 10:35 PM

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QUOTE(ykj @ Jul 17 2023, 10:09 PM)
I had compared both before, in the long run (especially when talking all the way to age 100), still stand-alone medical card costs more, especially if you are looking at long life post 80s. Look at post-60s increment, it is basically near absurd from there onwards.

ILP premium will increase too over the years and because of this periodic increment, your cash value will overcome the increasing cost of insurance, hence not eating into the cash value at maturity.

However over short term wise & the insured is still young, stand-alone medical plan is of course much cheaper and only increases once every 5 years.

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Medical insurance has no cash value itself. The so called cash value come from investment of unit trust hence it is called ILP. Those projected profit from the unit trust is not guaranteed nor must be profit. There may be negative return as well. If negative or less than projected then it may costlier then standalone. The beauty of ILP concept is to use igood nvestment return long term to offset the cost of insurance.
newtunes
post Sep 27 2023, 02:19 PM

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Gurus, expert or agent of insurance
Please advise on the matter.

My parent has a medical insurance since long time ago, and the policy said cover until 69 aka next year they will 69 .
What will happen after next year, just lapse like that then no more coverage?
Can it be extended?

The premium is so expensive about 8k plus for this year renewal, they need to assure whether it can be extended before deciding to pay for this year renewal.
Because if next year cannot be extended, it seems pointless to continue to pay for the 8K plus, because only can get 1 year coverage with annual limit about 100K only.
It is an old policy, so annual limit is rather low.

Fully understand the risk involved if opt not to renew.

The main issue, the policy will just lapse after 69?
Only if can be extended, may be got courage to renew.


newtunes
post Sep 27 2023, 04:57 PM

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QUOTE(lifebalance @ Sep 27 2023, 02:25 PM)
There will no extensions, you will not be able to renew it once they are 70 unless stated otherwise within your policy.

You can re-apply for them a newer insurance plan which can renew up to age 100.
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I see. thank you for the reply.
Newer plan for a person currently 68?
Wouldn't be it is as expensive?
Existing old plan already 8k plus, if beyond 70 guess needs >10K?

QUOTE(mini orchard @ Sep 27 2023, 03:36 PM)
Pay for the renewal. After paying for many years, don't save on the last year coverage .... you know what I am saying.

In life, when one don't want it to happen, it will eventually happen and vice versa.
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They would like to keep it as well, but paying 8K plus to get the last year coverage of about 100K annual limit, doesn't seen a good deal.
Last time, not so expensive.
They have some saving and EPF to cover, or worst case opt for gov hospital. Touch wood.

QUOTE(Ramjade @ Sep 27 2023, 03:57 PM)
If policy until 69.means 69. No renewal after that. There are now insurance which last boarding age is 70 years ago and cover until 99 or 100. But keep in mind premium going to be expensive, any existing illness won't be cover and need to wait 2 years before use and insurance company may ask for health checkup in view of age.

If don't want to pay for insurance, then pay out of pocket or use govt service. There is no 2 way about it.

High premium is insurance polite way of saying get lost. We don't want to cover you. If you want to pay for coverage, by all means please pay the high price. Reason for high premium is because higher risk for frequent admission to hospitals.

For me, if I am still well no illness, I will look for standalone to cover me until age 80 if you can afford the premium. If got illness time to use govt service. Pay so much for income tax time to use the service.

Up to you to decide if
1. You have budget for it (high 4 digit to 5 digit with of premium per year)
2. How comfortable are you with govt service
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It is standalone policy, and already so expensive... imagine paid 10 years for both, need almost 200K. That money may can cover a number of surgery and hospitalisation. Touch wood.
It seems doesn't worthwhile for aging people to take up medical. Because paid 10 years, almost 100K, annual limit only about slight 100K plus.
newtunes
post May 16 2024, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(smallikanbilis @ May 14 2024, 09:56 PM)
May I ask if it is possible to upgrade the existing old plan instead rather than surrendering and buying new plan? I would like to avoid the reset of contestability period.
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Surrender old plan and getting new plan, has a risk of pre-condition especially one is already aging.
You don't know what medical condition you may already have prior pre-subscribe the new plan.

Medical insurance is not like PA or others type of yearly renewal insurance, whereby you can ditch old plan and getting newer cheaper plan without risk.
newtunes
post May 27 2024, 12:38 PM

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QUOTE(WaCKy-Angel @ May 27 2024, 11:45 AM)
I'm surveying medical card for my 5 years old son.

Don't think need Life Insurance or CI.

Standalone cheaper or IPL cheaper?
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ILP may mean long term commitment with investment portion inside.

My personal choice would be standalone first since your son still young.
In the future, if want ILP also no too late.
Standalone is easier to manage and based on yearly renewal.
If any newer better policy come out in the future, can cancel and take new one.

ILP inside got investment, and some investment may need considerably longer time to have return.
Cancel early may not be so good.

Anyway just personal choice, standalone vs ILP has their own pro and con, can't say which is better.
newtunes
post May 27 2024, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 27 2024, 01:41 PM)
Yes, but the steepness of increase which one will be more? (especially when nearer to retirement age?)
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ILP also incur steep increase in medical cost when old.
No way to escape high medical cost or premium when old.
Insurance is profit driven business, not charity.

After all, her son may want to buy his own medical policy when grown up, as policy may be totally different by then.
Let them choose what they want then, as they are the one paying for it by then. Retirement is 60 years down the road issue, don't need to worry too far front.

I remembered last time bought medical insurance, annual limit is like 100k, 200K only. Now, newer policy come out with 1 mil or even more.

newtunes
post May 27 2024, 05:06 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 27 2024, 04:47 PM)
Based on the earlier posted explanation, i Guess the premium increases of Ilp will not be as steep as the standalone plans of similar kind.
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It is not because ILP doesn't incur steep medical cost premium when aging but because ILP drawdown the investment portion of money to pay for it.

newtunes
post May 27 2024, 05:28 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 27 2024, 05:08 PM)
So which one will actually feel and felt to have steeper increases at older age ?
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ILP, you pay upfront more, the extra more being channeled into investment and being drawdown later so that pay lesser than Standalone when old.
Standalone, you pay upfront less and pay more afterwards.

Just like
ILP- bitter first, later sweet later.
Standalone - sweet first, bitter later.
Both also one bitter, one sweet. Neutral.

If one is financially discipline, both actually not much different. While Standalone may have more advantage in term of flexibility of cashflow and investing. Mind that certain a few ILP may suffer poor return as well.

The lesser pay standalone, the extra money can be invested into ETF or whatever, then long term future reap good profit, and those profit can help you to pay the bitter bill later on, which in the end of day, similar what ILP can offer.

But if take up standalone, have extra cash but spent with unnecessary stuff end up no money for future, then different story.

newtunes
post May 28 2024, 08:25 AM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ May 27 2024, 10:59 PM)
I also didn't know about it until the agent told me. That's why good to have honest agent..

I was what do you mean about topup? Then she explained that all ILP cannot sustain you until the end of the contract. You can increase sustainability by increasing premium or lumpsum topup.

That was then I was like I am paying for investment and it cannot sustain me until the age I want and now have to lump sum topup down the road? Nope.

Get agent to talk to you about sustainability of policy and see what is their response. A good agent will tell you what to do, what is it. A bad agent will brush it off.
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Generally, ILP is unable to have sustainability issue are due to
1. The investment return is not as good as initial projected. Investment can be as well making zero return or losses, there is no guarantee on the return. It is like unit trust.
2. The medical cost inflation rise as more than projected.

QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 03:27 AM)
I think ilp you pay more so your policy got more money that you will hv lesser quantum rate of increase compared standalone. Ilp you pay more so that your fish tank got more water, so it requires lesser water to refill to sustain the fish. No?
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I think your concept on ILP is not quite right.
ILP- Every year when you paid for the ILP premium, the money is split into two portion, one is used to pay for the medical premium, the rest goes to investment typically like unit trust.
In early day or younger age, bigger portion goes to investment, as younger age has lesser medical premium compared to old age, similar to standalone.

Eg. 4000 premium yearly. 1000 goes to medical + 3000 investment. (Compared to standalone that you just pay the medical premium)
after 20 years, investment pool got 60K.
When old age, medical cost rise to 5000, then you still pay 4000, but the deficit 1000 deducted from your accumulated investment, this is where ILP "fixed" premium mechanism comes from, although it is not actually fixed.
When even older, medical cost rise to 10k, it continue to deduct the 60K pool until exhausted.

Due to early day of projection that the ILP (that normally projected certain return) should be sustain until 80 or whatever age, the investment pool money is estimated not enough, then the ILP premium needs to be raised or top up into the investment or whatever to solve the sustainability issue.

So it is never about ILP has less quantum rate increase or not compared to standalone. Both medical cost or premium rise together with age that nobody can run away. Just the pool of investment money being deducted out in the process.
newtunes
post May 28 2024, 09:35 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 09:14 AM)
It is not about there will be increase in premium. Increase in premium will for both standalone and ilp.
How the premium will be used in the ilp is not seen or felt by the payer.
The payer only see and felt how steep the increases will be.
Yes, "Both medical cost or premium rise together with age that nobody can run away", but which one will be more steeper?
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Insurance company have standalone and ILP customer policy.
When there is medical inflation cost that need to pass through policy holder, will insurance treat differently between ILP vs standalone policy holders?

Since insurance basis is about working in a pool of fund, aka collect money then compensate or pay to those need to claim,
does insurance separate out the pool of standalone vs ILP?

ILP is about medical + investment only. It is not a magic channel to reduce quantum of increase medical premium. As no one escape rise in medical premium. Whether how steep, be it standalone or ILP, nobody knows the future.

The primary objective for getting ILP is have an investment or save extra in early age for investment that will be used for future paying medical premium.


newtunes
post May 28 2024, 11:00 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 10:04 AM)
Standalone does not hv this option, so will pay more in terms of steeper repricing in future?
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No one can know how future medical inflation will be shaping.
No one can answer this question, even insurance companies.

I don't understand why hype on this question.
People already answered how ILP works, how ILP level or mitigate by saving and investment early to pay for future in the mechanism. This is the purpose of ILP.

ILP is not a tool to pay less for future repricing.
Both standalone and ILP serve to customer needs, neither is better nor worst.
newtunes
post May 28 2024, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 11:08 AM)

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As mentioned before
ILP consist two portion. Investment + medical
For the medical part repricing you cannot reduce it simply because you are on ILP, as simply as that. End of story.
How to use early saved investment money to pay, to level, has nothing to do with repricing of medical cost, it is just number game to play around in term of adjustment your annual premium and sustainability issues.

Medical repricing is always subjected to aging and market inflation on medical cost + numbers of claims incurred. When the whole population aged, and more claims incurred in the pool of fund, repricing needs to occur.
Insurance companies is profit orientated, not charity fund. So the pool of claims also a factor for repricing.

newtunes
post May 28 2024, 12:36 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 12:24 PM)

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Level your premium /= reduce or lower medical insurance cost repricing.
Your premium paid in ILP this year /= your medical insurance cost currently.

Level your preimum, just means using your early saved money investment to level.

We are all along talking on medical insurance cost repricing, not your current paid premium or future premium.
The quoted statement never say lower or reduce medical cost at older age.

I guess you may still fail to comprehend ILP has 2 portion to start with, that are not interfering with each others except when need to drawdown the investment portion to compensate rise in medical cost.





newtunes
post May 28 2024, 02:15 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 12:52 PM)
Level your premium is it "smoothen" so that it is not so steep in premium hike compared to standalone where it does not have  that "smoothen" effect?
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Smoothen effect has nothing to do with incremental or ability to reduce cost of medical insurance in the future.
Smoothen effect has no real effect apart of psychological or own feel good factor only.
But this smoothen effect has goodness towards those have no financial discipline and tend to spend once they have cash.

Illustration, (not real, just a hypothetical scenario)
First option (mimic to standalone) assume every 5 years repricing due to aging (set aside inflation in medical cost premium repricing :
1,000 (first 5 years)- 2,000(x5) -3,000(x5) -4,000 (x5) - 5,000(x5) -10k (x5)
Total paid 100K over 25 years

Hypothetical smoothen effect in ILP:
Pay fixed 3K for 25 years.
Total 75K paid over 25 years, but due to more upfront being channeled into investment that gain in return of 25K and being drawdown eventually,
Total also 100K

If one wants to have feel good factor or less shock effect aka having the smoothen effect, then it is individual choice, in reality, not much difference in between.

Mind that those lesser amount paid in standalone example above in early years (2K each year), even put more in FD can yield more than 100% return after 25 years.

You have smoothen effect but a the same times sacrifice cashflow in early years, and potential other investment opportunities.



newtunes
post May 28 2024, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 12:48 PM)
Like I said not about steeper, it's about final cost. At least for me.
I too started with that thinking decades ago. Standalone is cheaper and can save more in the end.
But now at retirement with no active income, my earlier thinking when young about "buy within your means" so that premium can be sustained, started to be deemed to be flawed.
I should hv think before buying when young, "can I still afford to pay the premium every year after age 55 especially after 65??"
An example of the quantum of increase is as per the table (image 4).
It doubled every 10 years ...that is excluding the usual repricing amount

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If at young age needs to choose standalone due to "buy within your means", meaning you cannot afford to buy ILP that with higher premium at early stage, As simple as that.
Or you have spent those saved money instead letting the saved money invested to grow more money for long term future.

ILP is just like EPF, forced you saved extra in the early year for retirement so that you have some money to pay for future incremental of premium. But it doesn't mean it reduce your medical repricing.
But ILP does very good for those have no strong financial discipline, again similar to EPF.
newtunes
post May 28 2024, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 28 2024, 04:45 PM)
The money you saved buying cheaper insurance need to be used to put into other investment.

Mean if ilp 1500, and standalone 1200. You saved 300 buy buying standalone 1200.
The 300 saved will still need to be taken out from your budget.

Your total budget allocations will still be 1500 for it.

It is not about what investment can save you more with the money you spend. (The money you spend are the money (300) you saved from buying standalone)
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There is no "cheaper" insurance.
ILP vs standalone, the premium gap generally bigger, the merely extra 300 is not enough for long term sustainability and having smoothen effect in the future.

ILP has been drafted as the total projected money needed for the entire period let say 25 years.
If ILP need 3000 pa, for 25 years, means standalone may also need that amount for 25 years period.
Let say standalone is 1200 vs ILP 3000, 1800 saved, the 1800 is for you to put into investment, make the 1800 money grow money.
It is not something should be spent if one intends for have long term sustainability medical insurance in mind.

The advantage with standalone is that you have flexibility cashflow in the early year.
It is never about cheaper or can save money with standalone or ILP can have lower medical cost when aging, all are irrelevant.
You are focusing wrong on medical insurance (by persistent want to know which is "cheaper") by comparing ILP vs standalone.

ILP and standalone just a different package, it doesn't differ much the cost of medical insurance one needs to pay over the long term.
newtunes
post May 29 2024, 05:21 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 29 2024, 03:47 PM)
Yes while we will not know in future which of the 2 types will have higher repricing, but if based on past historical actual happenings, we can have some idea.

If only more of this kind of historical data (example attached) can be made readily available and shared (preferably of almost similar coverage and benefits also)....so that abit more information can be derived. Then perhaps, better conclusion and judgement can be made.
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Historical data is not useful to predict the future repricing.
Reason :
1. Population aging compared to previous.
2. Pool of standalone and ILP may be changing. Recent years more and more agents push towards ILP, it may shape how ILP repricing as well.
3. Potential more claims can result in more repricing. Nowadays have see people with minor issue also want to do full checkout and try to claim, as well as potential more sickness due to unhealthy lifestyle
4, Newer medical equipment, advanced and more costly treatment that result higher claims money needed may result more repricing in the future.

Again, no point to predict how future premium will be, be it standalone or ILP.
Future repricing or your so called quantum of increase can never be known or predicted.

ILP and standalone are orange and apple - you are trying to justify which is cheaper - pointless
Want to know quantum of increase future repricing - something future that can be totally unpredictable - pointless.

No point trying to make correct guess game like 20 or 30 years down the road, there are too many variables that we cannot control. There won't be any conclusion even digging out super AI computer to process all the data.
Just plan whatever current condition and forseeable future, and making adjustment along from time to time.


 

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