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 Insurance Talk V7!, Your one stop Insurance Discussion

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Andr3w
post Mar 15 2025, 12:02 AM

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Hi all, I am on GE ILP. Recently i got letter to be in their LEVEL UP MEDICAL COVERAGE CAMPAIGN, which is to increase coverage and benefits for the new plan. When I see my current plan insurance charge table and the new plan insurance charge table (on their brochure), all age bracket, the new plan charges is roughly the same or cheaper (due to deductible framework). But the letter they say when upgrade, must pay almost double my current premium. Also the fund used in ILP is same. So I don't understand why when insurance charge is same or slightly cheaper, the premium they insist me to pay more than my current premium?
Andr3w
post Mar 16 2025, 11:25 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Mar 15 2025, 07:25 AM)
Because of that, (in blue),
May I ask,
What are the Current existing covered annual limit VS the new Enhanced annual limit?
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existing = 200k
new = 5 million

My confusion is the premium, they will minus insurance charges (other admin fee, policy fee is minimal). If new and current is same insurance charges (according to table of insurance charges), they why premium is different by so much?
Andr3w
post Mar 16 2025, 01:31 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Mar 16 2025, 11:44 AM)
Wow, 200k >> 5 million.
Very good coverage amount.

Just asking, does that insurance charges table that you are refering to, has something like that condition? ( per each $x net sum assured)?

Btw, if it were me, I would be very concern of my capability to be able to sustain or continue to pay premium of 5 mil medical insurance coverage after 55 yrs old or after my retirement without any active income.
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No , if you see page 15 onwards which was given by my agent... there us no the words you show me.

how does it work? my current plan the table shows RM1000 for example, my yearly statement they minus add up to around rm1000 for insurance charges. So if new plan i see RM900, so they will charge me yearly rm900 (even though my sum insures 200k >> 5million)?


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Andr3w
post Mar 18 2025, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(hafizmamak85 @ Mar 17 2025, 09:22 PM)
This is a very interesting case. I can only speculate but you must confirm the following:

1) Your current policy's cost of insurance (COI) charges for the medical rider as evidenced in your policy's COI table (I'm assuming this is in the contract: please confirm) is either same or higher, for all age brackets, compared to the COI charges published in the new medical rider's brochure. (Please confirm that you are comparing only the current policy's medical rider COI to the new policy's medical rider COI)

You're wondering why there is doubling in the quoted premium when opting for the level up in medical coverage given that 1) is true. Shouldn't your new annual premiums be lower then? There are two possibilities why you're not being quoted lower annual premiums:

A) Premium pricing assumptions, in particular the investment return projection rates assumed for premium sustainability purposes has changed. Perhaps last time they had priced it assuming a projected investment return rate of 7% per annum but now it may only be 4%. This would result in higher sustainable annual premium amounts even if the ILP funds used are the same.

B) There may be new allocation charges for upgrading the medical coverage

Please write in to the insurer or ask the agent to give you detailed answers on why the annual premium amounts are higher when opting for the level up.

Anything disclosed in the brochure will form part of your reasonable expectations unless specified otherwise (for e.g. there may be new loading factors that you may be unaware of, so please confirm this with the insurer). Be that as it may, the insurer cannot disavow what is within the brochure by saying that it is not an insurance contract.

Always remember, regardless of BNM policies, no insurer or regulator has the authority to unilaterally alter core contractual obligations, in particular, something as binding as an annual premium amount. You could even challenge them to say that it is improper for them to reprice it assuming a lower rate of investment return as that isn't your reasonable expectation based on expectation as imputed into your original annual premium's pricing assumptions and that any new (additional) charges, if any, can and should rightfully be construed as double charging.

user posted image
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Thanks all for reply.

1) Attached is current COI (from my latest policy contract) and new COI (from sample contract wording). As can all see, the new plan COI is even cheaper in most age bracket(due to Rm500 deductible). Agent has discussed with me and the only explanation I guess GE just need me to put much more money into investment with my higher premium. I am worried because I want to ensure that my next bill after upgrade will minus the same or lower COI and not my COI minused, will be increased by many fold due to maybe my sum insured increase from 200k to 5 million. For example current monthly COI being minused is RM50++ per month, so after i upgrade, i do not want to see the new monthly COI being minused is RMXXX (in hundreds)


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Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 11:40 AM

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QUOTE(YoungMan @ Mar 16 2025, 07:05 PM)
You sure want to commit 5 million insurance coverage? 1 million is more than sufficient if you can sustain it after 65 years old.
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but COI is cheaper than my current plan at each age bracket. I don't see why I don't upgrade to this new coverage (although have deductible but I am ok with that)....
Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 11:43 AM

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QUOTE(trumpkampung @ Mar 18 2025, 07:37 PM)
how old r u? i also received this offer but my additional premium is super high..i am mid 40ties
my current-
approx rm2000 yearly - coverage rm50k per claim/year and lifetime only rm200k. Damn freaking low
( policy started sometime in 2005 and 2015 there was an upgrade)
new offer
option 1 is appox rm8k per year (5mil)
-extra rm6k from current / per year
option 2 rm9300 per year (15 mil)

extra rm7300 from current/year
increase is really high
worth to take it? is it wise if i just cancel the policy since current rm200k max (lifetime) is too low and is not an issue for me.....
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same mid 40s .. same current approx 2k ++ premium ... same coverage as yours...
But ... new offer was only 5k for option 1....

Any sifus or experts can advise insurance company can quote whatever premium they like with fund sustainability as a reason but don't fully reveal every single detail how they come to our premium quote? Any BNM or law say they must?
Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 01:41 PM

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Seems like asking us pay higher premium, is to put more money into investment (if what the amount on the current COI table price is how much they will minus from yearly premium we pay).

I have 20k++ in my investment portion. My next COI will be around 1.5k annually according to COI age bracket table. I want to stop paying premium and force my yearly COI to be deducted from my 20k++ investment until maybe it reach around less than 3k++ , then only i continue paying premium. My policy say it will not lapse until the investment become 0 when premium next due. So from I see, it seems can do such a thing with no complication? The purpose I want do this is to channel my premium money to better invest into things like ETF etc that give better return.

Any advise about complication or advise about my decision to stop paying premium on my ILP to force deduction from investment portion and then later on continue paying premium when investment almost dry up?
Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 01:52 PM

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QUOTE(poweredbydiscuz @ Mar 20 2025, 01:48 PM)
When you get older, your COI will become higher than your premium, and you won't have any fund from the investment portion to support it.
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No problem. I know how much COI i need to pay when i get older from the table. Only till then I will pay the higher premium (which you say will increase due to that old age COI will be higher than current premium quoted) if the investment portion is close to 0 to prevent policy from lapse.... any issue? As mentioned, I want to stop paying premium for now is to channel the premium that i was suppose to pay for better investment returns(since i still have 20k++ in the investment portion)

This post has been edited by Andr3w: Mar 20 2025, 01:57 PM
Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(poweredbydiscuz @ Mar 20 2025, 01:59 PM)
Well, the COI table is not fixed, it WILL increase almost every year from now on (especially the medical part). If you are confident you can pay the future premiums, then no issue.

EDIT: take note that it's not the old age increase COI that you need to worry about, it's the UNCERTAIN medical inflation, which will rack up your COI must faster than what's written in the table.
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Thanks for reply

Currently the table shows like that. And also i know this table might change all the prices because all kind of reason like inflation etc , but this will happen throughout all insurance industry if that time comes (standalone or ILP irregardless) . Just that I am not sure insurance company will come out with all kind of funny reason to say i cannot stop paying my premium...

About your EDIT comment, how does this affect me if I continue to pay my premium now or not pay premium? Irregardless if COI increased by alot due to whatever reason, I still have to pay either by premium money (which they will increase alot) or via my investment portion. So this will still happen even if i continue to pay my premium now right? (which if i am affected by what you mentioned "UNCERTAIN medical inflation, which will rack up your COI must faster than what's written in the table" )

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This post has been edited by Andr3w: Mar 20 2025, 02:17 PM
Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 03:30 PM

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QUOTE(hafizmamak85 @ Mar 20 2025, 02:47 PM)
If you don't stick to your premium payment schedule, there is the risk that you would not be able to later claim that the policy is not performing according to expectation when it is unable to meet all those high cost of insurance charges, esp. at the older ages but also before then, as a lot of these older policies and even some of the current ones, have high investment return rates assumed in the pricing (which allowed for the lower premiums). These high rates are not sustainable. You can then claim that it is the insurer or takaful operator who is responsible and should foot the bill. If you plan on investing your spare cash that should have gone to paying premiums in an ETF outside the insurer, then why bother having an investment-linked policy in the first place?

What insurers and takaful operators have sneakily done is to reduce the policy coverage term to ages 70 or 80, compared to the previous term of 100 years+, and thereafter operate the main policy and medical rider on a renewal basis up to ages 100 and above. The way the policies are currently priced, it is highly questionable even as to whether the policy can be sustained up until the end of even the shorter policy terms.

The original sins are the high investment return rate assumptions and the unsubstantiated and ridiculously priced high cost of insurance charges at older ages. This needs to change.

Medical Inflation is a poor excuse.A medical policy with 12.1 claimants per 100 policyholders and average claim amount of RM 25.4k and with a five percent margin for expenses only cost RM 3100 for a person ages 35.

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1) If you don't stick to your premium payment schedule, there is the risk that you would not be able to later claim that the policy
My comments : The bolded part is a risk that insurance will say to me? Just say it happens, can I say this affects everyone in the pool of my plan and not just me? Or is it me only because I never stick to premium schedule? ( I understand your points further down the sentence)

2) If you plan on investing your spare cash that should have gone to paying premiums in an ETF outside the insurer, then why bother having an investment-linked policy in the first place?
My comments : Just say i made a mistake by buying ILP. I cannot U-turn back whatever mistake that has been done. I do not want to change standalone because all kind of consideration (like waiting period, medical underwriting, even none of those , new plan later will say cannot claim after performing investigation down the road when claim time and give all kind of medical exclusion reason due to new plan date). I also cannot just give up since i need protection. Also only recently, i am more savvy with financial, hence thinking of ways to prevent more mistake that pours more money into this ILP investment portion, hence that is why i ask if stop paying premium is any danger or concern since i read policy will not lapse if stop paying premium but still will deduct investment portion.

3) Whatever happen, it should affect everyone (most of the time), we are at mercy of it. Like example recent bank negara announce insurance charge hike fiasco, everybody COI will increase 10% irregardless standalone or ILP and i don't believe insurance company can cheat because if I have previous COI charges before increase, I will know the increase COI of 10% is it real or not.

4) Thanks for your detail tables but i don't understand. Is it the last table, you mean COI for 41-60 with deductible should be around 2900?

This post has been edited by Andr3w: Mar 20 2025, 03:57 PM
Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 03:35 PM

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QUOTE(poweredbydiscuz @ Mar 20 2025, 03:25 PM)
It's just to highlight that you need to prepare for much higher COI in the future.

When you pay the premium accordingly, you won't feel the sudden jump so much in the older age, as you already contribute into the fund since early days.

If you don't pay the premium and keep minimum in the fund, then you need to be prepared and discipline enough to set aside money and get ready for the sudden jump in older age. But this brings the question: why bother with ILP if you choose this option?
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I am old enough to see all kind of hikes (example recent bank negara allow all insurance company to hike price saying cannot sustain liao).. so I am prepared for anything ...just that it has to be across the board and lawful and not unfair treatment to certain group only.

I believe i can be discipline as I am with financial planning (which require more discipline)

As to why ILP i explain above to me reply to hafizmamak85
Andr3w
post Mar 20 2025, 05:43 PM

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QUOTE(hafizmamak85 @ Mar 20 2025, 04:13 PM)
1) If everyone in the medical pool / investment-linked plan kept to their original premium payment schedule diligently and didn't withdraw anything from their cash values, and if it later turned out that their policies' cash values weren't sufficient to sustain the high cost of insurance charges at older ages, they would have a stronger case to claim that the policy had not performed according to expectation and that the insurer or takaful operator should foot the bill or any additional amounts needed to make the policy sustainable. You wouldn't have such a strong a case if you didn't keep to your original premium payment schedule.

2) It's something that you need to ask yourself. All your concerns
about waiting period, exclusion and other pre-existing condition clauses when opting for new plan, while significantly valid, can also be a risk (other than waiting period) with your current plan. Your current plan is also subject to all kinds of exclusions as well and the insurer can still deny or delay your claim.

What you need to ask yourself is if you still think it worth your while to hold your insurer accountable for any mispricing/underpricing errors in your current plan by maintaining your policy premiums and making them foot the bill for any issues that may crop up later on, e.g. policy cash values not being sufficient to cover cost of insurance charges.

3) Regardless of what BNM or the industry does, it is up to you as to whether you want to hold the insurer or takaful operator accountable. You can still keep to your original premium payment schedule and not pay the repriced premium amounts and later claim that the policy was not originally priced properly when it can't meet cost of insurance charges and therefore incumbent on the insurer or takaful operator to foot the bill for their errors.

4) For 41 - 60, with deductible would be RM 2900, without deductible would be 3100
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1) I been diligently keeping to my original premium payment schedule since 2013 until today and never withdraw anything. Recently , i still got another letter saying i need to pay increase premium because no more sustainable anymore to the promised age. So how can i ask insurer to foot the bill because they still insist i pay the increased premium from this year on? (not to confuse situation as I got this letter the same time as the letter to level up me to a new plan campaign which i say in earlier thread). So is there really a strong case that i can make or is it just at the mercy that they say no choice by saying no more sustainable due to whole country COI increasing which is official in news and they already say can increase COI due to unforeseen circumstances if passed by BNM etc. This letter i also wondering if i defy and not agree, not sure what they can do to my policy (like what i am wondering if i don't pay premium)

2) If I stick to my current plan, there is no waiting period or medical exclusion concern risk as like when i start 2013 medical record status. Although still have risk but it is better than the risk of moving to new plan right?

3) How to hold them accountable? It is a norm COI table charges is not guaranteed and especially it is out on the news with BNM say approved, what else can do....About sustainability, they also can say due to unforeseen circumstances like medical inflation all out in the news, they cannot promise the sustainability promised anymore...

4) At what coverage may I ask? yearly 1 million or 5 million or ?
Andr3w
post Mar 21 2025, 11:13 AM

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QUOTE(contestchris @ Mar 21 2025, 11:01 AM)
Yes, there are some considerations.

1. Your basic regular premiums will likely have 100% allocation after a certain period of time. However, any single-premium adhoc top-ups or regular premium top-ups will have a maximum allocation rate of 95%.

2. You will not be able to claim tax relief progressively.

Your idea is sound but at that point why not just buy a standalone medical policy and pay the premiums annually?
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1) Yes I know. This is what I found and hopefully is correct. The increment premium after new plan upgrade will subject to again the commission structure deduction (up to 10 years) , with example 1st year they will minus 40% off my first year increment premium (not total premium). I just wonder anyone can tell me .... if example after upgrade new plan, this 1st year premium,if i not able to pay, will they go and minus the 40% from my 20k investment portion?

About why not standalone, I already explain previously.

This post has been edited by Andr3w: Mar 21 2025, 11:16 AM
Andr3w
post Apr 18 2025, 02:48 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Apr 16 2025, 10:46 PM)
I googled and found this, ....
Not sure if it is applicable to your plan or is my interpretation is correct.

Mentioned .....Cash value is used for unpaid premium, 
Did not say will be used for unpaid cost of insurance.
https://www.greateasternlife.com/my/en/cust...um-payment.html
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It seems that they can charge interest fee once they activate this APL if you never pay premium after 30 days grace period. However, I did not find any APL or close related terms in my policy wording contract. Can I say I am safe to ignore APL if I don't pay premium and let it minus my cash value which I have a lot?

Up for any advice please
Andr3w
post Apr 18 2025, 05:38 PM

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QUOTE(hafizmamak85 @ Apr 18 2025, 03:06 PM)
There is no automatic premium loan facility for investment-linked policies - this facility is usually provided for traditional policies having cash values, like participating policies. Your ILP policy will be in-force, but not sustainable, as long as its cash value is available to finance any and all policy charges, including cost of insurance.

There is no need to provide an automatic, or otherwise, premium loan facility to ensure sustainability of ILP policies. What is needed is just a simple negative balance clearance mechanism (with no interest element), so that the ITO can track the IL policy's debts which will be gradually cleared as premiums get paid as time passes by. Any remaining negative balance at the end of the policy term will be absorbed by the ITO. The balance should not be deducted from any insurance/takaful policy payments should an insured/takaful event occur during the policy's term.

Just make sure to maintain your annual premium payments as per the level premium payment schedule set at the policy's inception.

Ignore any notice mentioning hikes in premium payments or cost of insurance charges. "Notices" are not contractually binding. The ITO must issue an amendment to the insurance/takaful contract, which cannot be executed unilaterally, if it wished to alter key terms, such as the annual premium/contribution amount or cost of insurance charges. Any right to unilaterally alter key terms of the contract, including annual premium and cost of insurance amounts, cannot be executed to maintain profits or to the detriment of policyholders.
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Thank you for your advice.

Just make sure to maintain your annual premium payments as per the level premium payment schedule set at the policy's inception. -> I was thinking to not even pay this premium and force deduction of any cost from my cash value and only top up years later when cash value is low....
Andr3w
post Apr 19 2025, 10:36 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Apr 19 2025, 08:00 AM)
Just beware of the possible amount that they may ask you to top up when the value inside your policy are depleting after a prolonged time in order to keep sustaining the policy.

Attached is just an example, may not be applicable to you
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Although there is word of "depletion after a prolonged time in order to keep sustaining the policy" but at same time, my contract has words like "if the Total Investment Value is less than or equal to zero" in LAPSE AND REINSTATEMENT part, so i guess they cannot lapse my policy due to depletion of TIV even though my TIV/cash value is not 0 yet?

 

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