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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 06:32 AM)
Those are vague. You have not defined right cause, right conditions and the rest. It is vague words piling on vague words.
Did you not realize that the ants were not in their first life, they would have existed in this universe for many generations, and carried with them the karma of their past lives ?

If I perform a new experiment to terminate their lives and that is successful and deterministic, and that breaks the predetermined action of karmic chain of the respective ants, that means either karma is false or it lacks guaranteed predictability.
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what if; the ants that were terminated were already set to be reborn into a better life? you were merely the tool to facilitate their next cycle? how would u be able to predict if you have no information on the ants that died on their karma status? Food for thought.
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:02 AM)
Please only focus on the predictability in present life, that's the only measurable prediction. The next life is not measurable.

In other words, what is the prediction which karma says about our present life, based on our past life karma and present life karma.
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then the exercise will be akin to weighing something without a measurement system. (i.e metric). without a scale, how do you measure and predict?
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM)
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
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thats a really big if, lol. i wouldnt want to make that assumption as i do not know how karma works. sure, we see glimpses of it but in order to know if its real, we need to first know how its supposed to work first before assuming any conclusions from your experiment.
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 11:10 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:02 AM)
Is not a big 'if' !

You think about the thought experiment, it has been demonstrated that past life karma is deferred or ignored by present life acts.
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no it is not demonstrated by the thought experiment. you just killed the ants. Thats just one action. The underlying causes on WHY u did the action was totally unexplained.

what if:
1. Karma was the one guiding you to choose the 50 ants to kill, therefore doing its job
2. Control group ants might die due to karma anyways. Just not at the exact time you did the experiment
3. Being born an ant is punishment enough and regardless how they died they would have earned some "positive" karma


mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 11:40 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM)
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.
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okay, what if:
karma has already predetermined the random generator to choose what karma wants to choose. then the experiment becomes a tool for karma to do its work. Because you wholly believe the random is random because it was not generated by you, but a computer program. But computers does not do random, it would still follow an algorithm and might seem random but given a big enough sample, there would still be patterns. You are also thinking that the experiment is the only determining factor. what if after the experiment one of the creatures/humans from the surviving group die? Is that karma or not?


mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 12:12 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:05 PM)
Then you are saying there is no randomness in the real world.

You are then making a tall claim which go against science, which based on randomness of sampling to achieve objectivity of scientific experiment and the conclusion.

For example then, we cannot use clinical trial of a medication to arrive at the efficacy of a medicine.
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whether or not there is randomness depends entirely on your belief system. But in terms of software, unless you're talking about AI; no, its not random.

but if u want to base it as an experiment, then what yours does is merely making an action to see the reaction. Karma shouldnt be involved in this.

Clinical trials are exactly that, give people or animals the medicine and see how they react.
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:19 PM)
Karma is basically the cause and effect which is claimed to spread over multiple generation of life.

No ?
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dont know, really. Merely pointing out that the experiment and the subject matter (karma) would need a more complicated experiment that the one you proposed. Something to prove the existence of karma first, maybe. Then only define its parameters.


mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 12:47 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:34 PM)
I maintain the claim that karma is understood by most people as the cause and effect which span over multiple generation of a life.

In that regards, to disprove/prove karma, we can use the same scientific methods of random sampling and look at the % of fulfillment of the prediction.

Our experiments always show 100% disprove of the causes due to past lives.
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notworthy.gif
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 6 2020, 12:45 PM)
I think your argument with mikehuan is that there is no proper definition of karma.

For you to have an experiment, you have to first define what is karma.
After we define, then we set an experiment around it.

So, technically, you have provided your definition, and set a thought experiment.
However, now, the issue is that there are disagreement in the definition you set.

In that case, then it's up to the other person to define what karma is.
And define it in a manner such that it's quantifiable, and falsifieable.
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and i did that. i said the thought experiment is an action/reaction and only that. If you removed the "karma" parameter, what does the experiment become? i didnt prove karma exist, merely put in a conjecture that karma does not necessarily have a part in this.
mikehuan
post Apr 8 2020, 10:10 AM

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everyone here will die.

thats the ultimate karma for you all, lol.


mikehuan
post Apr 8 2020, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 8 2020, 10:17 AM)
So this is the prediction which karma wants to make ?

Then it is a useless prediction. We can make this prediction without the word karma.
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you can make ALL predictions without the word karma.

its only relevant when you believe
mikehuan
post Apr 8 2020, 10:41 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 8 2020, 10:38 AM)
But the most important point is how useful is this prediction ?
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probably less important to a young child,

probably more important to an old person.

depends who you ask?
mikehuan
post Apr 8 2020, 10:55 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 8 2020, 10:48 AM)
Okay but no matter what, that's not the only and ultimate prediction which karma believers want to make. They also include rebirth, the nature of next life form, the well being etc in the whole package of karma.
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yealo, depending on whether you believe karma or not, then death isnt the end but a requirement.

even if you dont believe in karma, you will still die regardless.

so does it really matter you believe it or not?
mikehuan
post Apr 8 2020, 11:29 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 8 2020, 11:04 AM)
Yes it matters. You can see in the covid-19 or insecticide example, the difference lies in your determination of the cause.
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Okay. So
Causesation case 1;
You died because you did something bad and karma comes knocking.

Causesation case 2
You died because it was your time. Karma had 0 effect.

So, in the 2 cases the cause was different, yes? You're still dead though.
mikehuan
post Apr 8 2020, 11:37 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 8 2020, 11:31 AM)
Second case is wrong or bias. Not all cases are a matter of "it is my time".
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wrong or biased how?
you died of natural causes; its your time
someone killed you; its your time
in what way you would die that when its not your time to die?
mikehuan
post Apr 8 2020, 12:10 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 8 2020, 11:50 AM)
Do not confuse the thought experiment with real life.

In real life, when you are hospitlized due to covid-19, then the death is not certain yet. You could still learn one thing or two about your life based on finding out the actual cause or the most dominating factors of impact to your current situation.

However, if you attribute your current situation entirely on karma, your position is only self-centred on your past life which you know nothing about, and also partly your own current life morality.

You have to see that there is a big difference there.
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You also have to realise being infected does not mean that you will die. As it stands here, probably 5 out of 100 will definitely die, as per statistics. so to those 5 people, your first sentence does not apply. for the other 95, yeah they will still die, but not due to the virus

for the second, even if u believed so, then logically you dont have any control on the outcome of your life and the subsequent death, which will come anyways regardless on how your karma was previous life.
mikehuan
post Apr 15 2020, 11:12 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 15 2020, 06:58 AM)
Which is the "right" way of thinking  ?

Let say one is in this real world situation.

Person A went to Italy to watch football, and then he brought back covid-19 and because he sits next to person B in the office, he infected person B.

Person B infected his family members, 2 of them died, the rest recovered.

1) Person B thinks it is all his karma. He blames no one.

2) Person B thinks it is all amoral, nothing to do with morality, it is purely a matter of close contact he made with person A. It is purely a matter of close contact he infected his own family members. In anything, it is just manifestation of reality.

Is it more useful to be blinded by a lie, or it is more useful to know the reality ?
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3) Person B thinks its the family members own bad karma that killed them, nothing to do with him, blames family member.

4) Person B thinks its humanity's karma that killed them, blames humanity in general.

Still does not change the outcome. Person B's perception towards the whole incident however, can be completely different depending on how he processes the situation. This is what is happening to this thread
mikehuan
post Apr 24 2020, 10:07 AM

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thanks, good article
QUOTE(plain_white @ Apr 24 2020, 01:09 AM)
an excerpt from the article that relates to the thread
QUOTE
So how to bridge the gap between quasi-chaos with some rules and absolute order? Well, seems to me, only one way to do so: we must understand the Karma, the cause behind the initial effect, the initial chain in the chain reaction, the interaction between the unmanifested “will” and the manifested effect/outcome, which begins at the micro-level and ends up at the macro-observable level, like a water funnel forming over a drain. The law of attraction between thought/intention and manifested outcome. It may very well be these particles create the laws of the macro-universe by the will that deliberately drives them to a common-shared purpose-reality.


looks like that ant experiment is not enough biggrin.gif
mikehuan
post Apr 27 2020, 11:48 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 27 2020, 11:11 AM)
That's very true. It is a puzzle where we don't even know where the edge is.
Yeah, hence the common denominator of all these confusions I.e humans.

That's the reason why my stand is that we should practice (the good things) what we believe within our own circle. Don't go kacau others because you do not know who is right or wrong.
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or, we ourselves imagined the puzzle biggrin.gif. There is no puzzle.

back to the topic, i think for the first step at least is to define what is karma. In order to define we must first prove it exist. The ant experiment already assumed that it exists.
mikehuan
post Apr 27 2020, 12:11 PM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 27 2020, 12:03 PM)
But that's exactly the problem. Plain_white's description of karma is that it is unpredictable, chaotic and random.
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Right. So we start there. No one said that karma is provable now. Just merely out of scope of any scientific experiments at this time.

Other than quantum entanglement (where the results change depending on if it is observed or not) the only other thing is religion. So there are your choices if you wish to believe in karma.



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