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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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kmarc
post Apr 5 2020, 11:41 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:10 PM)
I can perform a simple experiment to either disprove karma or to render it useless as the moral compass of our morality.

Please ask if you are interested.

I will start off the discussion by asking this question below.

Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?

This is a yes or no question.

If yes, it means one can expect to receive the karmic action of his past life.

If yes, then I can design a simple experiment to disprove karma.

If no, if means one might or might not receive the karmic retribution of his deeds in the past life. It simply lacks guarantees or predictability.

Think about the implication if you say no. It then means if one's reason to do good is because he wants to break the bad retribution, but since this retribution is not guaranteed, then it becomes bloody useless.

Please debate if you agree with me, or ask questions.
*
Since the experts can't answer satisfactorily, let me answer for them. Ahem.....

Karma is carried throughout a "consciousness" existence where the next cycle is determined by that has been done in the previous cycle.

The one that most people understand is that if you have done good in this life, you will rewarded with a better life next cycle. If you did bad, you will be demoted in the next cycle.

What happens to the ants that got the free insecticide then? Well, first of all, they were very bad in the last cycle so they were demoted to become ants. Serves them right. That's karma!!! So how are they going to get the opportunity to ascend when everybody knows ants can't do good or bad deeds. What? Ants going on a homicidal rampage then get bad karma? Or ants did good deeds by helping poor ants so get good karma? They probably don'tt understand anything at that time. Only mindless insects programmed to do their work. Punishment enough I would say.

So if the ants died suddenly, the default is that they get to ascend up the ranks... a bit. Maybe become spider. After dying, the ascend further. Up to a point where their consciousness become self aware, and they know what is good or bad. At that point in the cycle, karma kicks in, and you'll get what you deserve in the next cycle based on what you did in the previous life.

How did I do? Ok? biggrin.gif

Part 2 - So a consciousness will ding dong up and down the ranks in each cycle depending on previous cycle karma. Accidental death is not a problem because karma are carried to subsequent cycles. The best top tier rank, I guess, is to be a human Buddhist monk where your chances to enter Nirvana is the highest. If your karma was not that good, you'll become a normal human Buddhist believer, who doesnt care whether they take 9,999,999 cycles to achieve nirvana. If worse karma, you'll end up being a human who believes in a non-existent God - a theist. Lower would be atheist. biggrin.gif And so on and so forth until the lowest rank.... bacteria and virus?

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 07:24 AM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 08:21 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM)
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.
*
You missed my part 2, as below:
QUOTE
Prt 2 - So a consciousness will ding dong up and down the ranks in each cycle depending on previous cycle karma. Accidental death is not a problem because karma are carried to subsequent cycles. The best top tier rank, I guess, is to be a human Buddhist monk where your chances to enter Nirvana is the highest. If your karma was not that good, you'll become a normal human Buddhist believer, who doesnt care whether they take 9,999,999 cycles to achieve nirvana. If worse karma, you'll end up being a human who believes in a non-existent God - a theist. Lower would be atheist.  And so on and so forth until the lowest rank.... bacteria and virus?


That would easily explained by the fact their karma is carried forward together with their consciousness which is the only permanent thing in this universe.

Think of karma as a scoring system from 0 to 100. You do good, your score goes up. You do bad, your score goes down. So let's take your example of a rapist and a philanthropist in this life cycle. Both had a score of 80 in past lives. When these 2 were cyanided (haha), they go into the next cycle but their score would be different. The rapist's score goes down so he gets demoted and become a cow. (If it was a mass murderer, probably become ant!) The philantropist's score goes up and he becomes a human Buddhist with higher chance to enter Nirvana. Of course, like the part 2 that I mentioned, you'll probably need to have a score of 100, a human Buddhist monk, to even have a remote chance of entering nirvana. However, if you score nothing because you were an ant, your score will gradually go up, as you did nothing bad.

So each life cycle's karma is additive or subtractive and not all or none.

Haha, how? Better? biggrin.gif

Will conclude my main reasons/points for this exercise soon. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 08:26 AM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 09:41 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 08:32 AM)
Then you are saying there is no predictability in karma, meaning the karma from past life can be deferred due to a stronger or more dominating present life karma, encounters or causes.

Do you have a formula for how past life karma is combined with present life karma so that we can formulate the predictability ?

When a claim lacks predictability, that makes it unfalsifiable.
*
It is predictable based on the scoring. An example of the scores:

0 - bacteria and virus
10 - microscopic organisms
20 - ants, insects
30 - animals
50 - humans, atheists biggrin.gif
60 - humans, theists tongue.gif
70 - humans, normal Buddhists
80-90 - humans, devout Buddhists
90-100 - humans, buddhist monks

Say you are at 70, a normal Buddists. In this cycle, you are a thief. Not really very evil so minus 10 points for you. That means, in your next life, you are punished to become a human theists at 60 points. Haha. Say at that time, you died prematurely without any chance to earn any points. Your scores will be brought forward to next cycle, as karma follows consciousness which is the only permanent thing. However, not only is your score brought forward, it is added a bit because you didnt do anything bad. Instead of 60, you get +2 to become 62. That means that if you unfortunately died prematurely in the next few cycles, you may end up with a score of 70 again - a human Buddhist. This is to explain how lower tier life-forms, who doesnt know the meaning of good or bad, gets a chance to have a better life in the future. An ant will eventually get upgraded to the next tier eventually, and the next and the next, until it's consciousness assumes a form that is aware of good and bad. Once that happens, points will be additionally added or deducted based on karma.

And for those at top tier, the buddhist monk, it doesnt mean they get to enter Nirvana that cycle. It is not so easy. So each cycle, as long as they don't do bad, they will be at 100 and their chances increases each cycle. Who knows how many attempts at max 100 is needed before one can enter. Maybe 10, 20 or 100.

For you and me, we're at around 50 so there's still a lot of points to accumulate before we even have a chance to get the prize. sad.gif we better get cracking earning more points!!!! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 09:47 AM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 09:56 AM)
How can it have predictability when I already said, in my previous post, if you have a random sample of living things with different karma scores, but all subjected to hydrogen cyanide gas in this present life, all ended up in the same fate of death ?

The thought experiment clear showed that their fate is independent of their past life karma scores.
*
Ya ma. Already explained that their current cycle is not necessarily determined by past deeds. Instead, what they became was determined by pass deeds. Say a mass murderer human theist who became an ant because of karma. He already got his karma punishment so whatever happens after that is anybody's guess, whether cyanided or not.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM)
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
*
Ya, that's what I'm saying.

On death, your karma points will determine what you become in your next cycle, and not what will happen in the next cycle. A mass murderer, on dying, gets his punishment by being an ant in the next cycle. He doesnt get to become human. That's his karma punishment. So as an ant in next cycle, whatever happens when he is an ant has nothing to do with the fact that he was a previous mass murderer. He already got his punishment by being an ant and in the new life, the ant is still being given the chance, like all life-forms, to ascend further and accumulate more points.

So whether you cyanide the ant or not, it doesnt matter. The outcome of this current ant life is not determine by previous life deeds. Meaning to say that at the time of death, the predictability is what the consciousness become in the next cycle, not the outcome of the next cycle.

Edit : to put it in another way, once you get punished or rewarded (to become whatever your score is), karma resets and all is forgotten. You start afresh with the points you have. You are not punished for endless cycles because of one bad life cycle. Every consciousness is given a new chance in every cycle.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 10:40 AM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 11:04 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:47 AM)
Then you are saying karma does not bother or predicts about whether you suffer or not in your entire life. It only covers what life form you will be. You know we can change the thought experiment to deliver suffering to group A.
*
Ya, karma determines what the consciousness becomes in the next life. That's all. It doesn't hold a grudge after that. biggrin.gif Every consciousness starts anew after their reward or punishment, every cycle provides a new chance.

Anyway, what I did was just to show that every believer/preacher/etc. can always come up with a convincing explanation for everything. If they can't answer, it is as simple as saying "it"s meant to be like that" or "it is from God".

Thx for the brain workout! biggrin.gif
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 11:24 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:16 AM)
Then you really need to change the thought experiment to use different samples as I mentioned to kmarc.

Read post #50.

Instead of killing, maybe change it to deliver suffering or incentive to group A.

The idea is to do a deterministic action to disprove the impact of past life karma.
*
I think we have to get the premise straight. Basically, this is what we're saying:

Premise A - past life karma has an impact on current life
Premise B - past life karma has no impact on current life. Only impact what the consciousness becomes

So I guess you're going with premise A because for premise B, killing, suffering or rewarding group A in current life has no connection with past life karma.
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:07 PM)
I think you have gotten my point right on the dot.
*
I forgot to add another point to back up premise B.

If you look at Buddhists monks, they generally regard all life as precious. They try not to kill anything unnecessarily and that includes ants.

This means that ants, already being punished for past evil deeds, are still regarded as precious in current life and are given equal chance to live.

If the view is that ants were previously evil and that karma need to persist into subsequent life, then the natural outcome is that we should kill all ants when we see them. DIE you evil ants!!!! But no, buddhists monks practices all lifeforms as precious so it goes to show that karma from past deeds ends after the punishment at the beginning of the next cycle.

Hmmm.... there's an ant on my table..... what should I do? Haha.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 12:27 PM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:46 PM)
I don't know how your post above is able to substantiate it as premise B.

For me, I don't have to depend on premise B to know how to not overly mistreat an ant. But if a white ant comes to me, I will have no hesitation to take act on them.
*
Just adding a point that it goes with the Buddhist principle that all life is precious regardless of circumstances and in this case, regardless of past deeds. So the argument of karma not influencing subsequent cycles fits well with this Buddhist practice. Whether true or not I don't know!!!! tongue.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 12:56 PM
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 08:18 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 06:14 AM)
That's not my question. You admitted that there is karma to every action, so my question is does it give you positive or negative karma. I am not asking whether it is big or small.
*
Wow! Looks like my scoring hypothesis for reincarnation fits the Buddhism hierarchy system well! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 07:48 AM)
Everything that exist must be demonstrated to exist. Is a simple principle everybody must adhere to live a impactful life.

Karma can't be demonstrated it exist. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Leave it to the scientist go and discover them if you must. But meanwhile, please ignore.

There are a million more things that violate this principle. Please don't spend energy on them.
*
Don't agree. Things that can't be proven to exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The important thing is to keep an open mind and try to eventually prove (or disprove) its existence rather than blindly 100% believe that it exist without convincing evidence.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 08:20 AM
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 08:25 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 08:20 AM)
Well I agree. That's the reason of my 2nd paragraph.
*
Ya, but for the 2nd paragraph, my view is that karma cannot be proven but it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. Like any scientific research, we may not yet have the tools to measure it. Maybe in a million years.

For now, many hope for its existence because it feels good to see karma power especially on bad evil humans! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 08:26 AM
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 08:32 AM)
Actually it did not prove you were right. The karma is the score board (cause), which we all agree. After using the score, but the karma EFFECT can be manifested into :-

1. The life form in the next rebirth
2. The nature of one's life in the next rebirth ( sad, happy, disgracing etc )
3. The combination of 1 and 2.

Your argument is that the karma effect is limited to only 1, which I think such interpretation is rare ! Most people take it as 3.
*
No la. I had no intention of proving right or wrong. Just acting like a typical person who tries to justify his/her belief where there seems to be always an answer for everything, whether right or wrong. And when cornered, the answer always fall back to "because it is like that" or "because God says so".
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 09:53 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 08:38 AM)
Ok. Do the research. But meanwhile , the layman people get on with our lives as though it doesn't exist. Ignore it. Unless you are the scientist.

Maybe for karma the impact is low on how evil it can become. But believing in something that doesn't exist got demonstratable evil impact. In Malaysia, you see apostates and LGBT being discriminated, just a small sample of the evil impact that can manifest.
*
Fair enough. But it doesn't stop the wonderful feeling of "pandan muka" to bad people when karma strikes! biggrin.gif
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 10:04 AM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 09:04 AM)
There are a few issues with Karma.

1. Before anything, does Karma exist? This is still a question that cannot be answered.
2. If it exist, who set Karma, is it natural, or someone set it? uamcy mentioned that buddha set it? But I thought Buddha only gotten his enlightenment around 400-500BC? Before that, no karma? Or?
3. Does it has a consistent characteristic? E.g. if you want to attribute the death of someone's mother to karma for the person bullying, does that mean all bully will receive equally harsh punishment? If karma is fair, then it has to have a consistent characteristic. Otherwise, then it's a bias mechanism.
4. Most importantly, to those who claim karma exist, are you so sure that karma behaves according to what you think? How sure are you that it could span over generations, or timing is inconsistent etc etc?

Going back to something that wasn't provable in the past, but is provable now like bacteria.
Before we prove bacteria, we cannot say it definitely exist.
However, even before that, we can see its characteristic. We can observe its effect.
In the past, even though we cannot directly observe bacteria, doctors still managed to find ways to treat illnesses etc.
This is because something that exist has a consistent characteristic.

Also, when we don't understand bacteria, we cannot say for sure whether your sickness is due to virus, bacteria, or simply auto-immune attack etc.
So, I'm having problem understanding why can we attribute things to karma as though we have fully understand, and proven it.
*
Yeah, exactly like theist when they talk about God. They will say, "We can never understand God. He works in mysterious ways."

Apply that to karma, "We can never understand karma. It works in mysterious ways". biggrin.gif

So when something happens, it will either be, "God dealt out the punishment" for theist and "that's karma in action" for others.... for the same exact scenario.


kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 10:12 AM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 10:08 AM)
If you can never understand it, then you have to acknowledge you may not be doing it the right way.
You have no way to verify whether what you do is correct or wrong.

Just like if a world don't understand trigonometry, and I gave you a trigonometry question, your fail or pass depends on it.
Doing it according to what some people who equally don't understand it, vs. doing it whatever !@#$ ways you want, is the same.
You're likely to get it wrong anyway.

So, why bother learning from someone who equally don't understand?

But if you claim you know, understand etc, then you have to demonstrate its consistency.
*
Don't understand. Doing what the right way? Learning what from someone?
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 10:23 AM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 10:19 AM)
I mean, if you say, karma works in mysterious way, unexplainable etc.
Means, you don't understand karma.
So, how would you know how karma behaves?
How would you know that doing X deed = good deeds and therefore gain you good karma, Y deed = bad deeds and therefore gain you bad karma etc?

Perhaps stealing is good karma, who knows?
Perhaps giving alms is bad karma, who can say? Since karma works in mysterious ways.

And now, what we do is we listen to people who claims how karma works. Yet when pressed for more, they don't know.
So, are we learning from these people to determine what is good karma, what is bad karma?

Is karma based on "objective morality" or "subjective morality"?
*
Haha, you got me all wrong. I'm talking about the people who believes in God or Karma. Their belief, stance and reaction are almost the same, just have to substitute the word "God" and "karma" and you'll find that the sentences fit perfectly!!!!

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 10:23 AM
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 10:38 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 10:24 AM)
I asked the question, is killing a mosquito going to add positive mark or a negative mark to the karma ?

No answer yet.
*
Can I answer for the experts? It is negative mark.

Read this : https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/kill-impuls...-favorite-pest/

Do read the whole thing. Is it, as usual, interesting to see what humans can cook up.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 10:44 AM
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 10:45 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 10:44 AM)
What if the mosquitoes carry virus which can kill another person ? Isn't that protecting the life of another person a positive mark ?
*
So fast? Read the whole article la. It is interesting to see what people can cook up and explain in detail on their beliefs.
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 10:57 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 10:47 AM)
I only call for positive or negative as the answer I need. Should I be bothered with the details ?
*
Ya, if you read the article, the answer is mostly in there. While the article is unbelievable to some of us, it is again, interesting to see how people can belief in such things, so much so that there are detailed explanations on certain things that seems so.... incredulous.
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post Apr 7 2020, 11:44 AM

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QUOTE(jalsrix @ Apr 7 2020, 11:36 AM)
We are not gods nor did Buddha explain everything in detail. Even Jesus didn't explain everything in detail or else it will fill the entire planet. The knowledge of the universe is too vast.

Buddha's sutra of Karma only to list out general effects of one's actions when his disciple asked him why people are born blind,poor, rich, beautiful etc.

Buddha only concentrated on things that are most important. At that time, paper wasn't invented yet so how many things can you remember?

The Sutras were written 500 years after his death.

You can't learn everything in one life or else there is no need for reincarnation.

Anyway, you ask yourself, to give yourself some understanding of level of pain....

Knife stab on heart > Knife stab on hand > Needle on hand > Mosquito bite

So karma works that way too. Do you consider a mosquito bite very bad?
*
See the bolded.

Anything you learned is not carried to the next life. So it stands to reason that you HAVE to learn everything in this current life. Why do you need to wait for the next few cycles because you will be in the same situation you are in now?

Yes, unless I'm in Japan, I consider mosquito bite very bad because it is a vector that carries illnesses such as dengue and malaria. You do know how's the dengue situation in Malaysia right?


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