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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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Spear2
post Apr 4 2020, 09:07 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
my bad, perhaps i should say it is not guaranteed unless conditions are met.  blush.gif

conditionality, karma and rebirth are inter-related, they cannot exist independently.

there is element of predictability. read sutta MN136. the buddha clearly expounded the teachings in the sutta whereby there are different states of rebirth one can take place in, given when certain conditions are there. only when certain conditions are met then only outcome can be guaranteed.

karma is a natural phenomena/process, which is not to be philosophized nor debate on whether it is true or untrue. it is experiential, and you can experience this phenomena from moment to moment if your mind is clear enough to see, then you'll understand.

the thought experiment (container with ants) you created does not even have any relation at all in proving/disproving the phenomena.
maybe you are wondering, how do i know i am guaranteed not to be reborn as an insect or other misery states? according to early scriptures, there are 31 planes of existence (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html)
ant belongs to the animal realm, which is a woeful state of existence. you are only guaranteed not to be reborn in the 4 woeful realms only when you have the right causes and conditions. they can be found here: sota­patti­phala sutta (SN 55.55) , dutiyasariputta Sutta (SN 55.5), and https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/i...the_stream.html
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This is just a belief, not real or true. You believe it, then you use it to explain what you observe of the world. You don't believe it, the observations can still be explained without it.
Spear2
post Apr 4 2020, 10:14 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:23 PM)
In this post I want to explain the experiment to disprove karmic action.

The experiment is pretty simple.

Just collect 50 samples of living things. To avoid human morality issue, do it on ants.

Randomly split 50 ants of the sample into 25,25 and put them in two different containers.

Container A you spray insecticide on it. Container B you do not.

The outcome is pretty predictable. No matter how you choose to split the sample, ants in container A always ended up dead. That means irrespective of whatever their past lives, they are made to die. Those in container A are guaranteed to die, it does not matter what their past lives were.

Therefore karmic action cannot be guaranteed. The real cause of their death is actually the spray of insecticides on them. Their past lives have no part to play.

Just do the same thought experiment using human. Then you will see that karma is either untrue or useless.
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It is rationalized when you choose which ants go into which container. The ants were chosen because of karma. To you it seems random, to the believers that's karma at work.
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 11:32 PM)
yup, whether or not you subscribe to the believes of 'karma' & "rebirth', they are merely religious ideology. you will find your own version of Truth when you experience them personally.  wink.gif
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And this is your ideology that one can find one own version of Truth and experience them personally? Why do you think there are some personalized versions of Truth?
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:39 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 06:15 AM)
That means the believers are saying the ants were chosen were the resultant (re)action of their past deeds and this karma chain cannot be broken.

My question will be, when can a new karma chain be created ?

What is stopping one to say "I killed somebody because of my past deeds" and that's my karma ?

Isn't that renders karma a useless piece of explanation ?
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Karma is created continuously, your conscious action in selecting the ants will generate karma, so it is an eternal cyclic chain, as long as you keep coming back to this samsara (universe) thru rebirth. To get out, is to attain nirvana.

Because there is no detail to it's workings, just a general moral law, nor there appears to be any constraint, it becomes an arbitrary explanation after the fact. It seems a human proclivity to explain everything they see but yet they don't understand, like why a person is born poor or deformed or why an evil person can escape punishment in his life etc ...
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:41 PM)
I am just explaining the karma point. Only you're touching about ideology, religious war, and terror. You can continue to hurt people if you think karma is untrue. No one can stop you.

Only ignorant will claim certain thing is untrue. The universe is so huge. Anything is possible unless you visited the whole universe.
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Why do you say anything is possible as if you have visited the whole universe? You should not say anything at all unless you have visited the whole universe.
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:48 PM)
At least I won't become ignorant like you to claim certain things as untrue.
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How do you know that when you have not visited the whole universe?
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:54 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:52 PM)
All the stars, planets and galaxies that can be seen today make up just 4 percent of the universe. The other 96 percent is made of stuff astronomers can't see, detect or even comprehend.

That's why it's silly to claim certain things to be untrue. The size of the universe is beyond imagination. How can you be sure no other human/Aliens on the other side?
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See the bolded claim you made. How do you know that is true when you said yourself you haven't visited the whole universe. You should not say anything at all. Still don't understand?

This post has been edited by Spear2: Apr 5 2020, 12:55 PM
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 01:05 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:56 PM)
I will only say based on my past experience, karma is likely to be true. I won't claim anything to be 100% true or proven to be a fact. Unlike TS already concluded it' to be untrue.
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But that is not what you claimed earlier and your past experience is so tiny compared to the universe. What TS posted is to make some conclusion based on a thought experiment. Just like science which you rejected but demanded odd requirements. I find you are a blob of inconsistent mess.

Still based on your earlier logic you should not say anything at all ...
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 01:25 PM)
Based on a thought experiment is also very tiny compared to the universe. At least I said it's likely.

But ignorant like you like to make a conclusion without evidence to prove karma is untrue.
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Likely is what way since you said it is tiny?
Spear2
post Apr 6 2020, 04:27 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 02:28 PM)
Actually we won't know the speed. It might just depend on Buddha to decide or he got to set how the system will do automatically. Karma can come quickly or slowly or carry to your next life. But what I noticed is those who bad to me really got karma only. Although the time could be different to receive it.

Just give a little example of my karma experience only. No force you to believe. Primary school got one gangster always beat and bullies me, a few months later his mother passed away.

I took gula2 from somewhere, went back home, accidentally canned food fall down and cut my legs much blood.

Gov fitnah n charged me and malicious prosecution. Then barang naik fallen and bijan and his gang all got charged and those involved got sued in court now by pastor wife.

Got 1 ktard silent stalker defamed me many years ago, straightaway his kids admitted hospital.

This is based on what I remember and important only. Karma is definitely real. Not happens yet does not mean it's not real. It's just a matter of time.
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This is equivalent to not saying anything at all.

Poor mother she had done nothing to you. How about the father?

Poor kids they did nothing to you. How about his wife? His mother no?

This is just lame ...
Spear2
post Apr 6 2020, 04:29 PM

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QUOTE(cmytwk @ Apr 6 2020, 04:06 PM)
Think about deeply since you open this thread.

smile.gif
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Have you since you made a silly reply?
Spear2
post Apr 6 2020, 04:32 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:30 PM)
You are ignorant if you think your karma will only affect yourself alone.
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That is a straw man you set up for yourself.
Spear2
post Apr 6 2020, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:32 PM)
Like the blood, karma will pass down to children and this unavoidable trap will press them down. Karma is the sin that you have committed and this will pass down to your children. Also it's a restraint that you have inherited from your ancestors.Mar 5, 2017

https://medium.com/onemul/karma-will-pass-d...wn-80c9601fdf2c
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If i give you a few verses from the Quran that says not karma but God would you accept it?
Spear2
post Apr 6 2020, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:36 PM)
I have heard people those guillotine executioner, their next life will suffer some kind of neck pain. I know you won't believe it. Just nerve problem rite...
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If you can't accept that it is God according to the Quran, not karma, why would I accept yours? What made yours different than a wall of texts?
Spear2
post Apr 6 2020, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:41 PM)
He invited the whole class for her mother's funeral. The teacher arranged bus to his house. After the incident, his personality totally changed. No longer being a bully. You cannot imagine the sadness he had suffered for him to change completely. If you think it's fun, continue it.
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She as an individual person has done anything to the person?
Spear2
post Apr 6 2020, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:58 PM)
The bully experienced the saddest moment of his life. Something precious which he lost it permanently.
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So you are saying his mother suffered/died because of her son bad karma?

This post has been edited by Spear2: Apr 6 2020, 05:00 PM
Spear2
post Apr 7 2020, 05:37 PM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 7 2020, 03:46 PM)
Plant to bear fruits (effect) need all the natural conditions (causes) to be met, lack one of it, it won't bear. Everythings exist because of conditions are met at the right time, right place, right space...etc.
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Yes so we don't need karma to explain this. It is nature, nothing more.
Spear2
post Apr 7 2020, 05:43 PM

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QUOTE(jalsrix @ Apr 7 2020, 12:00 PM)
We do learn in each life but it is stored in our subconscious so that the next life, if we do learn it again, it will be very fast. 

Ever heard of  people who can speak foreign languages even though they never studied there?

Ever heard of child prodigy? I can give one million other examples.

LOL. I have been bitten by mosquitos a billion times in my life and I never have dengue or malaria.

You're just like saying that driving a car will kill you but I have driven my car for decades and I am still alive and never involved in a bad accident.
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Please cite data to support this claim.

This post has been edited by Spear2: Apr 7 2020, 05:44 PM
Spear2
post Apr 8 2020, 11:49 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 8 2020, 11:29 AM)
Okay. So
Causesation case 1;
You died because you did something bad and karma comes knocking.

Causesation case 2
You died because it was your time. Karma had 0 effect.

So, in the 2 cases  the cause was different, yes? You're still dead though.
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Or you die because there are evil pixies taking away lives as they see fit. Or any other imaginative ideas why you die. Does it matter since you will die anyway?
Spear2
post Apr 8 2020, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 8 2020, 11:50 AM)
If karma is true, then irrelevant whether a person believes it or not, it will still take effect.

Granted, if only relevant to a person if he believes it, and for those who don't, they can choose to live their own life accordingly
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I agree, so before we attempt to put the horse b4 the cart, is karma real or it is just a belief? No point living your life believing it is real while it is actually not. Same goes to so many other beliefs.

Hence the thread. What does it take to determine if karma is true and useful?

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