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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 06:10 PM, updated 7d ago

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I can perform a simple experiment to either disprove karma or to render it useless as the moral compass of our morality.

Please ask if you are interested.

I will start off the discussion by asking this question below.

Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?

This is a yes or no question.

If yes, it means one can expect to receive the karmic action of his past life.

If yes, then I can design a simple experiment to disprove karma.

If no, if means one might or might not receive the karmic retribution of his deeds in the past life. It simply lacks guarantees or predictability.

Think about the implication if you say no. It then means if one's reason to do good is because he wants to break the bad retribution, but since this retribution is not guaranteed, then it becomes bloody useless.

Please debate if you agree with me, or ask questions.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 4 2020, 06:37 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 06:23 PM

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In this post I want to explain the experiment to disprove karmic action.

The experiment is pretty simple.

Just collect 50 samples of living things. To avoid human morality issue, do it on ants.

Randomly split 50 ants of the sample into 25,25 and put them in two different containers.

Container A you spray insecticide on it. Container B you do not.

The outcome is pretty predictable. No matter how you choose to split the sample, ants in container A always ended up dead. That means irrespective of whatever their past lives, they are made to die. Those in container A are guaranteed to die, it does not matter what their past lives were.

Therefore karmic action of the past life cannot be guaranteed. The real cause of their death is actually the spray of insecticides on them. Their past lives have no part to play.

Some posters argued that isn't the selection the ants for container A a karma cause ?

Yeah, you are right. But that is present life karma. It means present life karma can swap out past life karma. This experiment's objective is to disprove past life karma, and not present life karma.

Just do the same thought experiment using human. Then you will see that karma is either untrue or useless.

If you argue that no matter how I prepare select the sample of ants for container A, it will not be random, past life karma of the ants have somehow impact the choice of the selection, then read this post #69 :-

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4937032/+68

Then you are saying there is no randomness in the real world.

You are then making a tall claim which go against science, which based on randomness of sampling to achieve objectivity of scientific experiment and the conclusion.

For example then, we cannot use clinical trial of a medication to arrive at the efficacy of a medicine.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 8 2020, 10:36 PM
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 06:45 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Jun 28 2020, 01:46 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 06:53 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 06:45 PM)
here's a good video on karma & rebirth explained by a respectable bikkhu.

before you start any thought experiments to prove/disprove, perhaps you can spend some time watching the dhamma talk video below to understand the concept in buddhist context a little better smile.gif


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Is karmic action guaranteed ? Does it have predictability ? Just answer these simple questions.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 4 2020, 06:58 PM
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 07:05 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 07:08 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 07:05 PM)
yes. karmic action not necessarily only actions performed through speech or bodily act will guarantee karmic result/fruit (karma vipaka)

to be precise, karma is a volitional action. meaning it is an intention formed first in your mind, then leads to bodily action and verbal action.

and the fruition will ripen depending on whether certain conditions are met. a ripen karma is called karma vipaka.
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In other words you are saying it is not guaranteed. And hence it is useless, it lacks predictability.
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 07:18 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 07:35 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 07:18 PM)
it is predictable, but it's almost impossible for ordinary folks for you and i to predict the exact fruition of ones karma, unless you're fully enlighten  smile.gif

yet if certain conditions are met with the karmic action performed, a guaranteed fruition may come.

if you're really interested to understand more, maybe you can start reading the actual words of the buddha's teachings on karma here:
MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta - https://suttacentral.net/mn136/en/sujato
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That's the definition of no predictability, unless you could exactly define the "conditions."




k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 08:52 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
my bad, perhaps the should say it is not guaranteed unless conditions are met.  blush.gif

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It is the same !

1) A will happen unless B condition is met

or

2) A will not happen unless B condition is met,

Both are lacking of predictability unless you could clearly define what is exactly the B 'conditions'.

Have you have a clear definition of B ?




Spear2
post Apr 4 2020, 09:07 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
my bad, perhaps i should say it is not guaranteed unless conditions are met.  blush.gif

conditionality, karma and rebirth are inter-related, they cannot exist independently.

there is element of predictability. read sutta MN136. the buddha clearly expounded the teachings in the sutta whereby there are different states of rebirth one can take place in, given when certain conditions are there. only when certain conditions are met then only outcome can be guaranteed.

karma is a natural phenomena/process, which is not to be philosophized nor debate on whether it is true or untrue. it is experiential, and you can experience this phenomena from moment to moment if your mind is clear enough to see, then you'll understand.

the thought experiment (container with ants) you created does not even have any relation at all in proving/disproving the phenomena.
maybe you are wondering, how do i know i am guaranteed not to be reborn as an insect or other misery states? according to early scriptures, there are 31 planes of existence (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html)
ant belongs to the animal realm, which is a woeful state of existence. you are only guaranteed not to be reborn in the 4 woeful realms only when you have the right causes and conditions. they can be found here: sota­patti­phala sutta (SN 55.55) , dutiyasariputta Sutta (SN 55.5), and https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/i...the_stream.html
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This is just a belief, not real or true. You believe it, then you use it to explain what you observe of the world. You don't believe it, the observations can still be explained without it.
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 09:34 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
the thought experiment (container with ants) you created does not even have any relation at all in proving/disproving the phenomena.

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My thought experiment is irrelevant when karma does not have predictability.

In other words, I cannot disprove something which lacks predictability, it is simply unfalsifiable. I don't have to disprove an unfalsifiable claim.

I would be able to disprove it when you clearly define your conditions which makes it predictable.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 4 2020, 09:35 PM
Spear2
post Apr 4 2020, 10:14 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:23 PM)
In this post I want to explain the experiment to disprove karmic action.

The experiment is pretty simple.

Just collect 50 samples of living things. To avoid human morality issue, do it on ants.

Randomly split 50 ants of the sample into 25,25 and put them in two different containers.

Container A you spray insecticide on it. Container B you do not.

The outcome is pretty predictable. No matter how you choose to split the sample, ants in container A always ended up dead. That means irrespective of whatever their past lives, they are made to die. Those in container A are guaranteed to die, it does not matter what their past lives were.

Therefore karmic action cannot be guaranteed. The real cause of their death is actually the spray of insecticides on them. Their past lives have no part to play.

Just do the same thought experiment using human. Then you will see that karma is either untrue or useless.
*
It is rationalized when you choose which ants go into which container. The ants were chosen because of karma. To you it seems random, to the believers that's karma at work.
Pikichu
post Apr 4 2020, 10:52 PM

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I see puchongites' comments and no arguement that karma is not consistent.
Borrow thread to explore topic.

QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
my bad, perhaps i should say it is not guaranteed unless conditions are met.  blush.gif

conditionality, karma and rebirth are inter-related, they cannot exist independently.

there is element of predictability. read sutta MN136. the buddha clearly expounded the teachings in the sutta whereby there are different states of rebirth one can take place in, given when certain conditions are there. only when certain conditions are met then only outcome can be guaranteed.

karma is a natural phenomena/process, which is not to be philosophized nor debate on whether it is true or untrue. it is experiential, and you can experience this phenomena from moment to moment if your mind is clear enough to see, then you'll understand.

the thought experiment (container with ants) you created does not even have any relation at all in proving/disproving the phenomena.
maybe you are wondering, how do i know i am guaranteed not to be reborn as an insect or other misery states? according to early scriptures, there are 31 planes of existence (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html)
ant belongs to the animal realm, which is a woeful state of existence. you are only guaranteed not to be reborn in the 4 woeful realms only when you have the right causes and conditions. they can be found here: sota­patti­phala sutta (SN 55.55) , dutiyasariputta Sutta (SN 55.5), and https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/i...the_stream.html
*
How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 10:59 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 4 2020, 11:26 PM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 4 2020, 10:52 PM)
I see puchongites' comments and no arguement that karma is not consistent.
Borrow thread to explore topic.
How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?
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Karma could bring forward to your next life after reincarnation as well. It's hard to prove or explain.
No matter how intelligent are you, you cannot escape fate or karma. It's just a matter of time.

Wondering if Defamation through online will cause karma? The victim will feel hurt and reputation damaged due to the defamer's postings in the forum. How? What do you think?

Btw if you believe then you believe. If they don't believe it, then just wait for the skies to punish them one day.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 4 2020, 11:35 PM
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 11:30 PM

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k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 11:32 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:10 PM
Pikichu
post Apr 5 2020, 12:00 AM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 4 2020, 11:26 PM)
Karma could bring forward to your next life after reincarnation as well. It's hard to prove or explain.
No matter how intelligent are you, you cannot escape fate or karma. It's just a matter of time.

Wondering if Defamation through online will cause karma? The victim will feel hurt and reputation damaged due to the defamer's postings in the forum. How? What do you think?

Btw if you believe then you believe. If they don't believe it, then just wait for the skies to punish them one day.
*
QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 11:30 PM)
actual buddhists practice the following 3 steps: dana(generosity),  sila(morality & virtue), then bhavana(mental cultivation, also known as meditation) dana -> sila -> bhavana

by putting effort and gradually training in accordance to these steps, you're conditioning the mind to lean towards pure and clean state. pure and clean state of mind is a happy mind  smile.gif

once sila(morality) are like your second nature, what comes naturally is samadhi(concentration), a calm and serene mind that's clear, even blissful state of mind, which help ones to see things as they are, in other word, the reality la. that's when panna(wisdom) come to be.

sila -> samadhi -> panna.
"what 'things' ahhh???" you may ask. those 'things" are the reality of anicca(impermanent), dukkha(unsatisfactory-ness), anatta(non-self)

all phenomenas come to existence based on conditionality. even our state of mind, mental habits and activities and conditioned-based. they are ever changing, thus anicca(impermanence). we always want to hold on to pleasant feelings and always dispel unpleasant ones, and since they are impermanent, there are also dukkha(unsatisfactory). also because all phenomenas are subject to change,  this characteristic is called anatta(non-self) 
true or not ? hmm i don't know. you'll have to experience it for yourself. perhaps can be liken to this analogy: nearly impossible to describe the taste of durian to someone who hasn't tasted it themselves  wink.gif
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I asked, "How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?"

Clearly two of you do not have a clear mind biggrin.gif LOL

When you do not have a clear mind, how can you be objective?
So you have what the military calls, a trained response. Just say karma, trigger all these response.

Anyway, if you cannot answer my first 2 initial questions, then you are stuck in your loop. No need to reply. Thank you for reading.
k2.ekAY
post Apr 5 2020, 12:28 AM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:10 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 5 2020, 06:15 AM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 4 2020, 10:14 PM)
It is rationalized when you choose which ants go into which container. The ants were chosen because of karma. To you it seems random, to the believers that's karma at work.
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That means the believers are saying the ants were chosen were the resultant (re)action of their past deeds and this karma chain cannot be broken.

My question will be, when can a new karma chain be created ?

What is stopping one to say "I killed somebody because of my past deeds" and that's my karma ?

Isn't that renders karma a useless piece of explanation ?
TSpuchongite
post Apr 5 2020, 06:32 AM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 10:59 PM)
i'm afraid you might have a different perception of what 'karma' is. hinduism has a different perception on karma and so is jainism. the term 'karma' exists even way before the Buddha came to be. for the sake of discussion, i assume you're referring to 'karma' in buddhist context, so we can discuss coherently.

the term 'karma' in buddhist context is a 'volitional action', the intention or motive behind an action. it forms in our minds, all beings' minds, that precede any bodily or verbal actions. 'karma vipaka', the ripening or maturation of karma, is bound to happen when 'karma' is done. meaning the fruition of karma is guaranteed. the severity level of 'karma vipaka' depends on the severity of 'karma' done. it can ripen in the very present life or far future into the next life.

there are causes that drive us to have volitional actions (karma), I won't explain much of that because it is not relevant to your question but it is important to mention. to put it simply, the driving factors are the roots that manifest in 'karma' that can be categorized into unwholesome root (greed, hatred, delusion) and wholesome root (non-greed, non-hatred, non-delusion) they are in always dormant state, eager to jump out when conditions are met. buddhist monks' goal is to eradicate these unwholesome root, completely.
okay, now let us go back to your question at the very beginning: "Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?"

in my opinion and understanding, the result of our next life can be guaranteed only if certain conditions are met. and exactly what "conditions' as you ask further previously, that would depend on what sort of result you're expecting to achieve. with the right cause and nourished with the right conditions correspond to the expected result, the expected result would then be guaranteed.
Those are vague. You have not defined right cause, right conditions and the rest. It is vague words piling on vague words.

QUOTE
if we refer back to your ant experiment. the CONDITION here for the early death of ants in container A is the administering of pesticide. the story doesn't end there. life cycle goes on in Samsara. the ants died may reborn into ants again or other beings in the next life, depends on the expiration & maturation of karma of the deeds of their past lives. 
Did you not realize that the ants were not in their first life, they would have existed in this universe for many generations, and carried with them the karma of their past lives ?

If I perform a new experiment to terminate their lives and that is successful and deterministic, and that breaks the predetermined action of karmic chain of the respective ants, that means either karma is false or it lacks guaranteed predictability.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 07:47 AM
Pikichu
post Apr 5 2020, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 11:30 PM)
actual buddhists practice the following 3 steps: dana(generosity),  sila(morality & virtue), then bhavana(mental cultivation, also known as meditation) dana -> sila -> bhavana

by putting effort and gradually training in accordance to these steps, you're conditioning the mind to lean towards pure and clean state. pure and clean state of mind is a happy mind  smile.gif

once sila(morality) are like your second nature, what comes naturally is samadhi(concentration), a calm and serene mind that's clear, even blissful state of mind, which help ones to see things as they are, in other word, the reality la. that's when panna(wisdom) come to be.

sila -> samadhi -> panna.
"what 'things' ahhh???" you may ask. those 'things" are the reality of anicca(impermanent), dukkha(unsatisfactory-ness), anatta(non-self)

all phenomenas come to existence based on conditionality. even our state of mind, mental habits and activities and conditioned-based. they are ever changing, thus anicca(impermanence). we always want to hold on to pleasant feelings and always dispel unpleasant ones, and since they are impermanent, there are also dukkha(unsatisfactory). also because all phenomenas are subject to change,  this characteristic is called anatta(non-self) 
true or not ? hmm i don't know. you'll have to experience it for yourself. perhaps can be liken to this analogy: nearly impossible to describe the taste of durian to someone who hasn't tasted it themselves  wink.gif
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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 5 2020, 12:28 AM)
oops sorry, i only answered your 2nd question in the form of simplified steps guidance to achieve a clear mind.

to your first question on "how is a mind clear", a mind is clear when the driving factors - the underlying unwholesome roots in the mind that manifest in 'karma", are then subdued through practices. a "clearer", serene and calmer state of mind as a result. an analogy would be just like a clear pond with no ripples on the surface, and you're able to see what's underneath the pond with ease.
take for example ah, slight irritation & hatred might be present in your state of mind at this moment. your intention to reply would then be "tainted" by your present state of mind, responding with words that are not pleasant to the readers. smile.gif
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How is a mind clear?
Your answer and definition of a clear mind is infested with an "underlying unwholesome roots" in the mind.

Therefore you are unable to see and experience a mind that is empty of burden and aware of it's presence and present state.

Thank you for your second answer too, is indoctrinated by religious ideology. No different from a Muslim spreading how great is Islam or atheist propogating atheism or Christian scaring people with hell unless the seek forgiveness from Christ or a salesman selling snake oil as if the bottle can cure all ailments.

As such you will not understand Buddhism meditation because your mind is occupied.
And from your reply, it shows you are imposing your thoughts on others.

But you won't understand anything written here because you have define your mind and you cannot read the content objectively.

So I wish you, stay home, stay safe, have a nice day.
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:21 PM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 5 2020, 12:00 AM)
I asked, "How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?"

Clearly two of you do not have a clear mind biggrin.gif LOL

When you do not have a clear mind, how can you be objective?
So you have what the military calls, a trained response. Just say karma, trigger all these response.

Anyway, if you cannot answer my first 2 initial questions, then you are stuck in your loop. No need to reply. Thank you for reading.
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Clear or not, time will tell if karma will strike you or not if you ever hurt people ya. It could not happen now but in your next life.

It's hard to prove to you and you don't even know how large is the universe. And don't assume God or other Deity only handle one planet. Your new life could be carried forward from another planet.

Many people like you only make a judgement based on the earth and having the mentality of the earth is the only living planet.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 12:22 PM
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 11:32 PM)
yup, whether or not you subscribe to the believes of 'karma' & "rebirth', they are merely religious ideology. you will find your own version of Truth when you experience them personally.  wink.gif
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And this is your ideology that one can find one own version of Truth and experience them personally? Why do you think there are some personalized versions of Truth?
Pikichu
post Apr 5 2020, 12:36 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:21 PM)
Clear or not, time will tell if karma will strike you or not if you ever hurt people ya. It could not happen now but in your next life.

It's hard to prove to you and you don't even know how large is the universe. And don't assume God or other Deity only handle one planet. Your new life could be carried forward from another planet.

Many people like you only make a judgement based on the earth and having the mentality of the earth is the only living planet.
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When you do not have a clear mind then you are living in delusion.
You hit next level when you continue to impose your ideology on others.
Next level is religious war and terror.

You are on your way there. Keep up the good work.
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:39 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 06:15 AM)
That means the believers are saying the ants were chosen were the resultant (re)action of their past deeds and this karma chain cannot be broken.

My question will be, when can a new karma chain be created ?

What is stopping one to say "I killed somebody because of my past deeds" and that's my karma ?

Isn't that renders karma a useless piece of explanation ?
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Karma is created continuously, your conscious action in selecting the ants will generate karma, so it is an eternal cyclic chain, as long as you keep coming back to this samsara (universe) thru rebirth. To get out, is to attain nirvana.

Because there is no detail to it's workings, just a general moral law, nor there appears to be any constraint, it becomes an arbitrary explanation after the fact. It seems a human proclivity to explain everything they see but yet they don't understand, like why a person is born poor or deformed or why an evil person can escape punishment in his life etc ...
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:41 PM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 5 2020, 12:36 PM)
When you do not have a clear mind then you are living in delusion.
You hit next level when you continue to impose your ideology on others.
Next level is religious war and terror.

You are on your way there. Keep up the good work.
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I am just explaining the karma point. Only you're touching about ideology, religious war, and terror. You can continue to hurt people if you think karma is untrue. No one can stop you.

Only ignorant will claim certain thing is untrue. The universe is so huge. Anything is possible unless you visited the whole universe.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 12:43 PM
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:41 PM)
I am just explaining the karma point. Only you're touching about ideology, religious war, and terror. You can continue to hurt people if you think karma is untrue. No one can stop you.

Only ignorant will claim certain thing is untrue. The universe is so huge. Anything is possible unless you visited the whole universe.
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Why do you say anything is possible as if you have visited the whole universe? You should not say anything at all unless you have visited the whole universe.
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:48 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 12:45 PM)
Why do you say anything is possible as if you have visited the whole universe? You should not say anything at all unless you have visited the whole universe.
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At least I won't become ignorant like you to claim certain things as untrue. If you don't want to look like an ignorant, perhaps you can say it's untrue on earth. Not the entire universe. Duh.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 12:49 PM
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:48 PM)
At least I won't become ignorant like you to claim certain things as untrue.
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How do you know that when you have not visited the whole universe?
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 12:49 PM)
How do you know that when you have not visited the whole universe?
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All the stars, planets and galaxies that can be seen today make up just 4 percent of the universe. The other 96 percent is made of stuff astronomers can't see, detect or even comprehend.

That's why it's silly to claim certain things to be untrue. The size of the universe is beyond imagination. How can you be sure no other human/Aliens on the other side?
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:54 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:52 PM)
All the stars, planets and galaxies that can be seen today make up just 4 percent of the universe. The other 96 percent is made of stuff astronomers can't see, detect or even comprehend.

That's why it's silly to claim certain things to be untrue. The size of the universe is beyond imagination. How can you be sure no other human/Aliens on the other side?
*
See the bolded claim you made. How do you know that is true when you said yourself you haven't visited the whole universe. You should not say anything at all. Still don't understand?

This post has been edited by Spear2: Apr 5 2020, 12:55 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 12:54 PM)
See the bolded claim you made. How do you know that is true when you said yourself you haven't visited the whole universe. You should not say anything at all. Still don't understand?
*
I will only say based on my past experience, karma is likely to be true. I won't claim anything to be 100% true or proven to be a fact. Unlike TS already concluded it' to be untrue.
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post Apr 5 2020, 01:05 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:56 PM)
I will only say based on my past experience, karma is likely to be true. I won't claim anything to be 100% true or proven to be a fact. Unlike TS already concluded it' to be untrue.
*
But that is not what you claimed earlier and your past experience is so tiny compared to the universe. What TS posted is to make some conclusion based on a thought experiment. Just like science which you rejected but demanded odd requirements. I find you are a blob of inconsistent mess.

Still based on your earlier logic you should not say anything at all ...
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post Apr 5 2020, 01:25 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 01:05 PM)
But that is not what you claimed earlier and your past experience is so tiny compared to the universe. What TS posted is to make some conclusion based on a thought experiment. Just like science which you rejected but demanded odd requirements. I find you are a blob of inconsistent mess.

Still based on your earlier logic you should not say anything at all ...
*
Based on a thought experiment is also very tiny compared to the universe. At least I said it's likely.

But ignorant like you like to make a conclusion without evidence to prove karma is untrue.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 01:27 PM
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post Apr 5 2020, 01:53 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 01:25 PM)
Based on a thought experiment is also very tiny compared to the universe. At least I said it's likely.

But ignorant like you like to make a conclusion without evidence to prove karma is untrue.
*
The thought experiment has nothing to do with the size of the universe.

It is a limited scope experiment which the conclusion is to be drawn based upon whatever on the earth, to which the karma law is said by Buddhists to be applicable.

Have you read the text in the first two posts ?

The first post starts off the discussion by asking if you think karma action is guaranteed to be predictable. If your answer is that it is not guaranteed to be predictable, then don't even bother to dwell on the thought experiment mentioned in the second post. When a claim lacks predictability, then it is an unfalsifiable claim. An unfalsifiable claim is not eligible for proving or disproving.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 01:53 PM)
The thought experiment has nothing to do with the size of the universe.

The size is important unless you specifically mentioned Karma is untrue on earth.

For example, if you do your experiment to detect the existence of ghosts in a certain village that claimed to have ghosts roaming around. You did the experiment for 2 decades and finally, you concluded Ghost is untrue This conclusion is not valid because the entire universe is too huge. Your sample size for the experiment is too small to make such a big conclusion.

This applies to almost anything including UFOs, Aliens, God, Deity or your favorite unicorn. smile.gif

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 02:07 PM
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post Apr 5 2020, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 02:04 PM)
The size is important unless you specifically mentioned Karma is untrue on earth.

For example, if you do your experiment to detect the existence of ghosts in a certain village that claimed to have ghosts roaming around. You did the experiment of 2 decades and finally, you concluded Ghost is untrue. This conclusion is not valid because the entire universe is too huge. Your sample size is too small to make sure a big conclusion.

This applies to almost anything including UFOs, Aliens, God, Deity or your favorite unicorn.  smile.gif
*
We are not talking about the ghost, we are also not talking about UFO.

You have not even replied my first question, is karma guaranteed to be predictable ?

Did you even read what I wrote in my previous post ?

Is the alien UFO or ghost thing falsifiable ?

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 02:09 PM
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post Apr 5 2020, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 02:09 PM)
We are not talking about the ghost, we are also not talking about UFO.

You have not even replied my first question, is karma guaranteed to be predictable ?

Did you even read what I wrote in my previous post ?

If you UFO or ghost thing falsifiable ?
*
Karma will relate to religion. It's hard to prove or explain to you. There is no certainty. This is not mathematics, 1+1=2. That's why certain people will eat vegetarian and no meats. I am sure you enjoy eating meats. smile.gif

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 02:14 PM
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post Apr 5 2020, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 02:13 PM)
Karma will relate to religion. It's hard to prove or explain to you. There is no certainty. This is not mathematics, 1+1=2. That's why certain people will eat vegetarian and no meats. It's sinful for them. I am sure you enjoy eating meats.  smile.gif
*
Please note that when we attempt to falsify religion, we are picking specific claims of the religion to falsify. For example, if Christianity claims about Noah flood on earth, or Adam and Eve were created some 10k years ago, then there are specific to discuss.

Those are falsifiable things. We will not be able to falsify a generic arbitrary God.

And yet you still haven't answer the specific question I asked about karma. As what I asked is the only thing in karma which can have hope for a discussion, provided that the claim has predictability.

We are not going to argue on something which is unfalsifiable.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 02:22 PM
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post Apr 5 2020, 02:24 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:10 PM)
I can perform a simple experiment to either disprove karma or to render it useless as the moral compass of our morality.

Please ask if you are interested.

I will start off the discussion by asking this question below.

Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?

This is a yes or no question.

If yes, it means one can expect to receive the karmic action of his past life.

If yes, then I can design a simple experiment to disprove karma.

If no, if means one might or might not receive the karmic retribution of his deeds in the past life. It simply lacks guarantees or predictability.

Think about the implication if you say no. It then means if one's reason to do good is because he wants to break the bad retribution, but since this retribution is not guaranteed, then it becomes bloody useless.

Please debate if you agree with me, or ask questions.
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You may donate some money to me......

Thanks in advanced.
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post Apr 5 2020, 02:26 PM

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QUOTE(cmytwk @ Apr 5 2020, 02:24 PM)
You may donate some money to me......

Thanks in advanced.
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Haha what's the relevance to the thread ? You are risking of being reported as spamming if you make only such a post.
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post Apr 5 2020, 02:55 PM

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Is the theory of evolution falsifiable ?

The answer is yes, it is falsifiable !

Does the theory of evolution make prediction ?

The answer is yes, it does make predictions in certain ways.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falsifiability_of_evolution

Read carefully about how you can falsify TOE. You will be famous if you managed do it.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 03:01 PM
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post Apr 5 2020, 04:16 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:41 PM)
I am just explaining the karma point. Only you're touching about ideology, religious war, and terror. You can continue to hurt people if you think karma is untrue. No one can stop you.
Only ignorant will claim certain thing is untrue. The universe is so huge. Anything is possible unless you visited the whole universe.
*
Yes, you are explaining but fail to listen and answer my question.

You are also right, ignorant claim Jew is true. The universe is so huge. Anything is not possible like you cannot grow any taller, even after you visit the whole universe.


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post Apr 5 2020, 04:27 PM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 5 2020, 04:16 PM)
Yes, you are explaining but fail to listen and answer my question.

You are also right, ignorant claim Jew is true. The universe is so huge. Anything is not possible like you cannot grow any taller, even after you visit the whole universe.
*
I don't need to answer your question because it's irrelevant.

You have no evidence to prove anything is not possible in the universe.
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post Apr 5 2020, 04:29 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 04:27 PM)
I don't need to answer your question because it's irrelevant.
You have no evidence to prove anything is not possible in the universe.
*
That's right, you have no clear mind to answer my question.

I do have evidence to prove karma is not reliable as Puchongite has taught us how biggrin.gif LOL
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post Apr 5 2020, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 01:25 PM)
Based on a thought experiment is also very tiny compared to the universe. At least I said it's likely.

But ignorant like you like to make a conclusion without evidence to prove karma is untrue.
*
Likely is what way since you said it is tiny?
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post Apr 5 2020, 11:41 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:10 PM)
I can perform a simple experiment to either disprove karma or to render it useless as the moral compass of our morality.

Please ask if you are interested.

I will start off the discussion by asking this question below.

Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?

This is a yes or no question.

If yes, it means one can expect to receive the karmic action of his past life.

If yes, then I can design a simple experiment to disprove karma.

If no, if means one might or might not receive the karmic retribution of his deeds in the past life. It simply lacks guarantees or predictability.

Think about the implication if you say no. It then means if one's reason to do good is because he wants to break the bad retribution, but since this retribution is not guaranteed, then it becomes bloody useless.

Please debate if you agree with me, or ask questions.
*
Since the experts can't answer satisfactorily, let me answer for them. Ahem.....

Karma is carried throughout a "consciousness" existence where the next cycle is determined by that has been done in the previous cycle.

The one that most people understand is that if you have done good in this life, you will rewarded with a better life next cycle. If you did bad, you will be demoted in the next cycle.

What happens to the ants that got the free insecticide then? Well, first of all, they were very bad in the last cycle so they were demoted to become ants. Serves them right. That's karma!!! So how are they going to get the opportunity to ascend when everybody knows ants can't do good or bad deeds. What? Ants going on a homicidal rampage then get bad karma? Or ants did good deeds by helping poor ants so get good karma? They probably don'tt understand anything at that time. Only mindless insects programmed to do their work. Punishment enough I would say.

So if the ants died suddenly, the default is that they get to ascend up the ranks... a bit. Maybe become spider. After dying, the ascend further. Up to a point where their consciousness become self aware, and they know what is good or bad. At that point in the cycle, karma kicks in, and you'll get what you deserve in the next cycle based on what you did in the previous life.

How did I do? Ok? biggrin.gif

Part 2 - So a consciousness will ding dong up and down the ranks in each cycle depending on previous cycle karma. Accidental death is not a problem because karma are carried to subsequent cycles. The best top tier rank, I guess, is to be a human Buddhist monk where your chances to enter Nirvana is the highest. If your karma was not that good, you'll become a normal human Buddhist believer, who doesnt care whether they take 9,999,999 cycles to achieve nirvana. If worse karma, you'll end up being a human who believes in a non-existent God - a theist. Lower would be atheist. biggrin.gif And so on and so forth until the lowest rank.... bacteria and virus?

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 07:24 AM
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post Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 5 2020, 11:41 PM)
Since the experts can't answer satisfactorily, let me answer for them. Ahem.....

Karma is carried throughout a "consciousness" existence where the next cycle is determined by that has been done in the previous cycle.

The one that most people understand is that if you have done good in this life, you will rewarded with a better life next cycle. If you did bad, you will be demoted in the next cycle.

What happens to the ants that got the free insecticide then? Well, first of all, they were very bad in the last cycle so they were demoted to become ants. Serves them right. That's karma!!! So how are they going to get the opportunity to ascend when everybody knows ants can't do good or bad deeds. What? Ants going on a homicidal rampage then get bad karma? Or ants did good deeds by helping poor ants so get good karma? They probably don'tt understand anything at that time. Only mindless insects programmed to do their work. Punishment enough I would say.

So if the ants died suddenly, the default is that they get to ascend up the ranks... a bit. Maybe become spider. After dying, the ascend further. Up to a point where their consciousness become self aware, and they know what is good or bad. At that point in the cycle, karma kicks in, and you'll get what you deserve in the next cycle based on what you did in the previous life.

How did I do? Ok? biggrin.gif
*
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 6 2020, 07:30 AM
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post Apr 6 2020, 08:21 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM)
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.
*
You missed my part 2, as below:
QUOTE
Prt 2 - So a consciousness will ding dong up and down the ranks in each cycle depending on previous cycle karma. Accidental death is not a problem because karma are carried to subsequent cycles. The best top tier rank, I guess, is to be a human Buddhist monk where your chances to enter Nirvana is the highest. If your karma was not that good, you'll become a normal human Buddhist believer, who doesnt care whether they take 9,999,999 cycles to achieve nirvana. If worse karma, you'll end up being a human who believes in a non-existent God - a theist. Lower would be atheist.  And so on and so forth until the lowest rank.... bacteria and virus?


That would easily explained by the fact their karma is carried forward together with their consciousness which is the only permanent thing in this universe.

Think of karma as a scoring system from 0 to 100. You do good, your score goes up. You do bad, your score goes down. So let's take your example of a rapist and a philanthropist in this life cycle. Both had a score of 80 in past lives. When these 2 were cyanided (haha), they go into the next cycle but their score would be different. The rapist's score goes down so he gets demoted and become a cow. (If it was a mass murderer, probably become ant!) The philantropist's score goes up and he becomes a human Buddhist with higher chance to enter Nirvana. Of course, like the part 2 that I mentioned, you'll probably need to have a score of 100, a human Buddhist monk, to even have a remote chance of entering nirvana. However, if you score nothing because you were an ant, your score will gradually go up, as you did nothing bad.

So each life cycle's karma is additive or subtractive and not all or none.

Haha, how? Better? biggrin.gif

Will conclude my main reasons/points for this exercise soon. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 08:26 AM
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post Apr 6 2020, 08:32 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 08:21 AM)
You missed my part 2, as below:
That would easily explained by the fact their karma is carried forward together with their consciousness which is the only permanent thing in this universe.

Think of karma as a scoring system from 0 to 100. You do good, your score goes up. You do bad, your score goes down. So let's take your example of a rapist and a philanthropist in this life cycle. Both had a score of 80 in past lives. When these 2 were cyanided (haha), they goes into the next cycle but their score would be different. The rapist's score goes down so he gets demoted and become a cow. (If it was a serial killer, probably become any!) The philantropist's score goes up and he becomes a human Buddhist with higher chance to enter Nirvana. Of course, like the part 2 that I mentioned, you'll probably need to have a score of 100, a human Buddhist monk, to even have a remote change of entering nirvana. However, if you score nothing because you were an ant, your score will gradually go up, as you did nothing bad.

So each life cycle's karma is additive or subtractive and not all or none.

Haha, how? Better? biggrin.gif

Will conclude my main reasons/points for this exercise soon. biggrin.gif
*
Then you are saying there is no predictability in karma, meaning the karma from past life can be deferred due to a stronger or more dominating present life karma, encounters or causes.

Do you have a formula for how past life karma is combined with present life karma so that we can formulate the predictability ?

When a claim lacks predictability, that makes it unfalsifiable.

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post Apr 6 2020, 09:41 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 08:32 AM)
Then you are saying there is no predictability in karma, meaning the karma from past life can be deferred due to a stronger or more dominating present life karma, encounters or causes.

Do you have a formula for how past life karma is combined with present life karma so that we can formulate the predictability ?

When a claim lacks predictability, that makes it unfalsifiable.
*
It is predictable based on the scoring. An example of the scores:

0 - bacteria and virus
10 - microscopic organisms
20 - ants, insects
30 - animals
50 - humans, atheists biggrin.gif
60 - humans, theists tongue.gif
70 - humans, normal Buddhists
80-90 - humans, devout Buddhists
90-100 - humans, buddhist monks

Say you are at 70, a normal Buddists. In this cycle, you are a thief. Not really very evil so minus 10 points for you. That means, in your next life, you are punished to become a human theists at 60 points. Haha. Say at that time, you died prematurely without any chance to earn any points. Your scores will be brought forward to next cycle, as karma follows consciousness which is the only permanent thing. However, not only is your score brought forward, it is added a bit because you didnt do anything bad. Instead of 60, you get +2 to become 62. That means that if you unfortunately died prematurely in the next few cycles, you may end up with a score of 70 again - a human Buddhist. This is to explain how lower tier life-forms, who doesnt know the meaning of good or bad, gets a chance to have a better life in the future. An ant will eventually get upgraded to the next tier eventually, and the next and the next, until it's consciousness assumes a form that is aware of good and bad. Once that happens, points will be additionally added or deducted based on karma.

And for those at top tier, the buddhist monk, it doesnt mean they get to enter Nirvana that cycle. It is not so easy. So each cycle, as long as they don't do bad, they will be at 100 and their chances increases each cycle. Who knows how many attempts at max 100 is needed before one can enter. Maybe 10, 20 or 100.

For you and me, we're at around 50 so there's still a lot of points to accumulate before we even have a chance to get the prize. sad.gif we better get cracking earning more points!!!! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 09:47 AM
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 09:41 AM)
It is predictable based on the scoring. An example of the scores:

0 - bacteria and virus
10 - microscopic organisms
20 - ants, insects
30 - animals
50 - humans, atheists biggrin.gif
60 - humans, theists tongue.gif
70 - humans, normal Buddhists
80-90 - humans, devout Buddhists
90-100 - humans, buddhist monks

Say you are at 70, a normal Buddists. In this cycle, you are a thief. Not really very evil so minus 10 points for you. That means, in your next life, you are punished to become a human theists at 60 points. Haha. Say at that time, you died prematurely without any chance to earn any points. Your scores will be brought forward to next cycle, as karma follows consciousness which is the only permanent thing. However, not only is your score brought forward, it is added a bit because you didnt do anything bad. Instead of 60, you get +2 to become 62. That means that if you unfortunately died prematurely in the next few cycles, you may end up with a score of 70 again - a human Buddhist. This is to explain how lower tier life-forms, who doesnt know the meaning of good or bad, gets a chance to have a better life in the future. An ant will eventually get upgraded to the next tier eventually, and the next and the next, until it's consciousness assumes a form that is aware of good and bad. Once that happens, points will be additionally added or deducted based on karma.

And for those at top tier, the buddhist monk, it doesnt mean they get to enter Nirvana that cycle. It is not so easy. So each cycle, as long as they don't do bad, they will be at 100 and their chances increases each cycle. Who knows how many attempts at max 100 is needed before one can enter. Maybe 10, 20 or 100.

For you and me, we're at around 50 so there's still a lot of points to accumulate before we even have a chance to get the prize. sad.gif we better get cracking earning more points!!!! biggrin.gif
*
How can it have predictability when I already said, in my previous post, if you have a random sample of living things with different karma scores, but all subjected to hydrogen cyanide gas in this present life, all ended up in the same fate of death ?

The thought experiment clear showed that their fate is independent of their past life karma scores.
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 06:32 AM)
Those are vague. You have not defined right cause, right conditions and the rest. It is vague words piling on vague words.
Did you not realize that the ants were not in their first life, they would have existed in this universe for many generations, and carried with them the karma of their past lives ?

If I perform a new experiment to terminate their lives and that is successful and deterministic, and that breaks the predetermined action of karmic chain of the respective ants, that means either karma is false or it lacks guaranteed predictability.
*
what if; the ants that were terminated were already set to be reborn into a better life? you were merely the tool to facilitate their next cycle? how would u be able to predict if you have no information on the ants that died on their karma status? Food for thought.
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:02 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 09:57 AM)
what if; the ants that were terminated were already set to be reborn into a better life? you were merely the tool to facilitate their next cycle? how would u be able to predict if you have no information on the ants that died on their karma status? Food for thought.
*
Please only focus on the predictability in present life, that's the only measurable prediction. The next life is not measurable.

In other words, what is the prediction which karma says about our present life, based on our past life karma and present life karma.
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 09:56 AM)
How can it have predictability when I already said, in my previous post, if you have a random sample of living things with different karma scores, but all subjected to hydrogen cyanide gas in this present life, all ended up in the same fate of death ?

The thought experiment clear showed that their fate is independent of their past life karma scores.
*
Ya ma. Already explained that their current cycle is not necessarily determined by past deeds. Instead, what they became was determined by pass deeds. Say a mass murderer human theist who became an ant because of karma. He already got his karma punishment so whatever happens after that is anybody's guess, whether cyanided or not.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:02 AM)
Please only focus on the predictability in present life, that's the only measurable prediction. The next life is not measurable.

In other words, what is the prediction which karma says about our present life, based on our past life karma and present life karma.
*
then the exercise will be akin to weighing something without a measurement system. (i.e metric). without a scale, how do you measure and predict?
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM)
Ya ma. Already explained that their current cycle is not necessarily determined by past deeds. Instead, what they became was determined by pass deeds. Say a mass murderer human theist who became an ant because of karma. He already got his karma punishment so whatever happens after that is anybody's guess, whether cyanided or not.
*
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM)
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
*
thats a really big if, lol. i wouldnt want to make that assumption as i do not know how karma works. sure, we see glimpses of it but in order to know if its real, we need to first know how its supposed to work first before assuming any conclusions from your experiment.
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM)
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
*
Ya, that's what I'm saying.

On death, your karma points will determine what you become in your next cycle, and not what will happen in the next cycle. A mass murderer, on dying, gets his punishment by being an ant in the next cycle. He doesnt get to become human. That's his karma punishment. So as an ant in next cycle, whatever happens when he is an ant has nothing to do with the fact that he was a previous mass murderer. He already got his punishment by being an ant and in the new life, the ant is still being given the chance, like all life-forms, to ascend further and accumulate more points.

So whether you cyanide the ant or not, it doesnt matter. The outcome of this current ant life is not determine by previous life deeds. Meaning to say that at the time of death, the predictability is what the consciousness become in the next cycle, not the outcome of the next cycle.

Edit : to put it in another way, once you get punished or rewarded (to become whatever your score is), karma resets and all is forgotten. You start afresh with the points you have. You are not punished for endless cycles because of one bad life cycle. Every consciousness is given a new chance in every cycle.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 10:40 AM
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 10:35 AM)
Ya, that's what I'm saying.

On death, your karma points will determine what you become in your next cycle, and not what will happen in the next cycle. A mass murderer, on dying, gets his punishment by being an ant in the next cycle. He doesnt get to become human. That's his karma punishment. So as an ant in next cycle, whatever happens when he is an ant has nothing to do with the fact that he was a previous mass murderer. He already got his punishment by being an ant and in the new life, the ant is still being given the chance, like all life-forms, to ascend further and accumulate more points.

So whether you cyanide the ant or not, it doesnt matter. The outcome of this current ant life is not determine by previous life deeds. Meaning to say that at the time of death, the predictability is what the consciousness become in the next cycle, not the outcome of the next cycle.

Edit : to put it in another way, once you get punished or rewarded (to become whatever your score is), karma resets and all is forgotten. You start afresh with the points you have. You are not punished for endless cycles because of one bad life cycle. Every consciousness is given a new chance in every cycle.
*
Then you are saying karma does not bother or predicts about whether you suffer or not in your entire life. It only covers what life form you will be. You know we can change the thought experiment to deliver suffering to group A.

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post Apr 6 2020, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 10:31 AM)
thats a really big if, lol. i wouldnt want to make that assumption as i do not know how karma works. sure, we see glimpses of it but in order to know if its real, we need to first know how its supposed to work first before assuming any conclusions from your experiment.
*
Is not a big 'if' !

You think about the thought experiment, it has been demonstrated that past life karma is deferred or ignored by present life acts.
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post Apr 6 2020, 11:04 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:47 AM)
Then you are saying karma does not bother or predicts about whether you suffer or not in your entire life. It only covers what life form you will be. You know we can change the thought experiment to deliver suffering to group A.
*
Ya, karma determines what the consciousness becomes in the next life. That's all. It doesn't hold a grudge after that. biggrin.gif Every consciousness starts anew after their reward or punishment, every cycle provides a new chance.

Anyway, what I did was just to show that every believer/preacher/etc. can always come up with a convincing explanation for everything. If they can't answer, it is as simple as saying "it"s meant to be like that" or "it is from God".

Thx for the brain workout! biggrin.gif
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post Apr 6 2020, 11:10 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:02 AM)
Is not a big 'if' !

You think about the thought experiment, it has been demonstrated that past life karma is deferred or ignored by present life acts.
*
no it is not demonstrated by the thought experiment. you just killed the ants. Thats just one action. The underlying causes on WHY u did the action was totally unexplained.

what if:
1. Karma was the one guiding you to choose the 50 ants to kill, therefore doing its job
2. Control group ants might die due to karma anyways. Just not at the exact time you did the experiment
3. Being born an ant is punishment enough and regardless how they died they would have earned some "positive" karma


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post Apr 6 2020, 11:16 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 11:10 AM)
no it is not demonstrated by the thought experiment. you just killed the ants. Thats just one action. The underlying causes on WHY u did the action was totally unexplained.

what if:
1. Karma was the one guiding you to choose the 50 ants to kill, therefore doing its job
2. Control group ants might die due to karma anyways. Just not at the exact time you did the experiment
3. Being born an ant is punishment enough and regardless how they died they would have earned some "positive" karma
*
Then you really need to change the thought experiment to use different samples as I mentioned to kmarc.

Read post #50.

Instead of killing, maybe change it to deliver suffering or incentive to group A.

The idea is to do a deterministic action to disprove the impact of past life karma.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 6 2020, 11:17 AM
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post Apr 6 2020, 11:24 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:16 AM)
Then you really need to change the thought experiment to use different samples as I mentioned to kmarc.

Read post #50.

Instead of killing, maybe change it to deliver suffering or incentive to group A.

The idea is to do a deterministic action to disprove the impact of past life karma.
*
I think we have to get the premise straight. Basically, this is what we're saying:

Premise A - past life karma has an impact on current life
Premise B - past life karma has no impact on current life. Only impact what the consciousness becomes

So I guess you're going with premise A because for premise B, killing, suffering or rewarding group A in current life has no connection with past life karma.
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post Apr 6 2020, 11:40 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM)
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.
*
okay, what if:
karma has already predetermined the random generator to choose what karma wants to choose. then the experiment becomes a tool for karma to do its work. Because you wholly believe the random is random because it was not generated by you, but a computer program. But computers does not do random, it would still follow an algorithm and might seem random but given a big enough sample, there would still be patterns. You are also thinking that the experiment is the only determining factor. what if after the experiment one of the creatures/humans from the surviving group die? Is that karma or not?


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post Apr 6 2020, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 11:40 AM)
okay, what if:
karma has already predetermined the random generator to choose what karma wants to choose. then the experiment becomes a tool for karma to do its work. Because you wholly believe the random is random because it was not generated by you, but a computer program. But computers does not do random, it would still follow an algorithm and might seem random but given a big enough sample, there would still be patterns. You are also thinking that the experiment is the only determining factor. what if after the experiment one of the creatures/humans from the surviving group die? Is that karma or not?
*
Then you are saying there is no randomness in the real world.

You are then making a tall claim which go against science, which based on randomness of sampling to achieve objectivity of scientific experiment and the conclusion.

For example then, we cannot use clinical trial of a medication to arrive at the efficacy of a medicine.
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:07 PM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 11:24 AM)
I think we have to get the premise straight. Basically, this is what we're saying:

Premise A - past life karma has an impact on current life
Premise B - past life karma has no impact on current life. Only impact what the consciousness becomes

So I guess you're going with premise A because for premise B, killing, suffering or rewarding group A in current life has no connection with past life karma.
*
I think you have gotten my point right on the dot.
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:12 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:05 PM)
Then you are saying there is no randomness in the real world.

You are then making a tall claim which go against science, which based on randomness of sampling to achieve objectivity of scientific experiment and the conclusion.

For example then, we cannot use clinical trial of a medication to arrive at the efficacy of a medicine.
*
whether or not there is randomness depends entirely on your belief system. But in terms of software, unless you're talking about AI; no, its not random.

but if u want to base it as an experiment, then what yours does is merely making an action to see the reaction. Karma shouldnt be involved in this.

Clinical trials are exactly that, give people or animals the medicine and see how they react.
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:19 PM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 12:12 PM)
whether or not there is randomness depends entirely on your belief system. But in terms of software, unless you're talking about AI; no, its not random.

but if u want to base it as an experiment, then what yours does is merely making an action to see the reaction. Karma shouldnt be involved in this.

Clinical trials are exactly that, give people or animals the medicine and see how they react.
*
Karma is basically the cause and effect which is claimed to spread over multiple generation of life.

No ?
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:07 PM)
I think you have gotten my point right on the dot.
*
I forgot to add another point to back up premise B.

If you look at Buddhists monks, they generally regard all life as precious. They try not to kill anything unnecessarily and that includes ants.

This means that ants, already being punished for past evil deeds, are still regarded as precious in current life and are given equal chance to live.

If the view is that ants were previously evil and that karma need to persist into subsequent life, then the natural outcome is that we should kill all ants when we see them. DIE you evil ants!!!! But no, buddhists monks practices all lifeforms as precious so it goes to show that karma from past deeds ends after the punishment at the beginning of the next cycle.

Hmmm.... there's an ant on my table..... what should I do? Haha.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 12:27 PM
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:19 PM)
Karma is basically the cause and effect which is claimed to spread over multiple generation of life.

No ?
*
dont know, really. Merely pointing out that the experiment and the subject matter (karma) would need a more complicated experiment that the one you proposed. Something to prove the existence of karma first, maybe. Then only define its parameters.


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post Apr 6 2020, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 12:26 PM)
dont know, really. Merely pointing out that the experiment and the subject matter (karma) would need a more complicated experiment that the one you proposed. Something to prove the existence of karma first, maybe. Then only define its parameters.
*
I maintain the claim that karma is understood by most people as the cause and effect which span over multiple generation of a life.

In that regards, to disprove/prove karma, we can use the same scientific methods of random sampling and look at the % of fulfillment of the prediction.

Our experiments always show 100% disprove of the causes due to past lives.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 6 2020, 12:35 PM
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 6 2020, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:34 PM)
I maintain the claim that karma is understood by most people as the cause and effect which span over multiple generation of a life.

In that regards, to disprove/prove karma, we can use the same scientific methods of random sampling and look at the % of fulfillment of the prediction.

Our experiments always show 100% disprove of the causes due to past lives.
*
I think your argument with mikehuan is that there is no proper definition of karma.

For you to have an experiment, you have to first define what is karma.
After we define, then we set an experiment around it.

So, technically, you have provided your definition, and set a thought experiment.
However, now, the issue is that there are disagreement in the definition you set.

In that case, then it's up to the other person to define what karma is.
And define it in a manner such that it's quantifiable, and falsifieable.
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:46 PM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 12:26 PM)
I forgot to add another point to back up premise B.

If you look at Buddhists monks, they generally regard all life as precious. They try not to kill anything unnecessarily and that includes ants.

This means that ants, already being punished for past evil deeds, are still regarded as precious in current life and are given equal chance to live.

If the view is that ants were previously evil and that karma need to persist into subsequent life, then the natural outcome is that we should kill all ants when we see them. DIE you evil ants!!!! But no, buddhists monks practices all lifeforms as precious so it goes to show that karma from past deeds ends after the punishment at the beginning of the next cycle.

Hmmm.... there's an ant on my table..... what should I do? Haha.
*
I don't know how your post above is able to substantiate it as premise B.

For me, I don't have to depend on premise B to know how to not overly mistreat an ant. But if a white ant comes to me, I will have no hesitation to take act on them.

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post Apr 6 2020, 12:47 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:34 PM)
I maintain the claim that karma is understood by most people as the cause and effect which span over multiple generation of a life.

In that regards, to disprove/prove karma, we can use the same scientific methods of random sampling and look at the % of fulfillment of the prediction.

Our experiments always show 100% disprove of the causes due to past lives.
*
notworthy.gif
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 6 2020, 12:45 PM)
I think your argument with mikehuan is that there is no proper definition of karma.

For you to have an experiment, you have to first define what is karma.
After we define, then we set an experiment around it.

So, technically, you have provided your definition, and set a thought experiment.
However, now, the issue is that there are disagreement in the definition you set.

In that case, then it's up to the other person to define what karma is.
And define it in a manner such that it's quantifiable, and falsifieable.
*
and i did that. i said the thought experiment is an action/reaction and only that. If you removed the "karma" parameter, what does the experiment become? i didnt prove karma exist, merely put in a conjecture that karma does not necessarily have a part in this.
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post Apr 6 2020, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 12:46 PM)
I don't know how your post above is able to substantiate it as premise B.

For me, I don't have to depend on premise B to know how to not overly mistreat an ant. But if a white ant comes to me, I will have no hesitation to take act on them.
*
Just adding a point that it goes with the Buddhist principle that all life is precious regardless of circumstances and in this case, regardless of past deeds. So the argument of karma not influencing subsequent cycles fits well with this Buddhist practice. Whether true or not I don't know!!!! tongue.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 12:56 PM
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post Apr 6 2020, 01:25 PM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 6 2020, 12:45 PM)
I think your argument with mikehuan is that there is no proper definition of karma.

For you to have an experiment, you have to first define what is karma.
After we define, then we set an experiment around it.

So, technically, you have provided your definition, and set a thought experiment.
However, now, the issue is that there are disagreement in the definition you set.

In that case, then it's up to the other person to define what karma is.
And define it in a manner such that it's quantifiable, and falsifieable.
*
We are talking about something which in my opinion, obvious.

Loot at dictionary :-

QUOTE
karma
/ˈkɑːmə,ˈkəːmə/
Learn to pronounce
noun
(in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
INFORMAL
good or bad luck, viewed as resulting from one's actions.



Or wiki :-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

QUOTE
Karma (/ˈkɑːrmə/; Sanskrit: कर्म, romanized: karma, IPA: [ˈkɐɽmɐ] (About this soundlisten); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).[2] Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and happier rebirths, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and bad rebirths.[3][4]


Rebirth has been repeatedly emphasized.
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post Apr 6 2020, 01:51 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 01:25 PM)
We are talking about something which in my opinion, obvious.

Loot at dictionary :-
Or wiki :-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
Rebirth has been repeatedly emphasized.
*
Yes, I'm saying you have define it, but mikehuan disagrees your definition.
That's why the argument isn't about the thought experiment results anymore, but rather it's about definition (or perhaps interpretation on definition)

For instance, you put up this definition:

"(in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
INFORMAL"

To simplify, let's just assume human beings.
If doing good means being born into a rich family.
Then, the karma "ends" there, the person has been "rewarded" by being born into a rich family. All other things he do subsequently is only going to affect his future "karma", and any actions towards him are going to affect the "karma" of the person doing it.

Or, if we put transcending species. Then the fact that say, a bird being born into a human, is already reflective of the bird's karma.

I'm just pointing out the potential interpretation, where religious often just ensure their claims cannot be flasified.
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post Apr 6 2020, 02:28 PM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 6 2020, 01:51 PM)
Yes, I'm saying you have define it, but mikehuan disagrees your definition.
That's why the argument isn't about the thought experiment results anymore, but rather it's about definition (or perhaps interpretation on definition)

For instance, you put up this definition:

"(in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
INFORMAL"

To simplify, let's just assume human beings.
If doing good means being born into a rich family.
Then, the karma "ends" there, the person has been "rewarded" by being born into a rich family. All other things he do subsequently is only going to affect his future "karma", and any actions towards him are going to affect the "karma" of the person doing it.

Or, if we put transcending species. Then the fact that say, a bird being born into a human, is already reflective of the bird's karma.

I'm just pointing out the potential interpretation, where religious often just ensure their claims cannot be flasified.
*
Actually we won't know the speed. It might just depend on Buddha to decide or he got to set how the system will do automatically. Karma can come quickly or slowly or carry to your next life. But what I noticed is those who bad to me really got karma only. Although the time could be different to receive it.

Just give a little example of my karma experience only. No force you to believe. Primary school got one gangster always beat and bullies me, a few months later his mother passed away.

I took gula2 from somewhere, went back home, accidentally canned food fall down and cut my legs much blood.

Gov fitnah n charged me and malicious prosecution. Then barang naik fallen and bijan and his gang all got charged and those involved got sued in court now by pastor wife.

Got 1 ktard silent stalker defamed me many years ago, straightaway his kids admitted hospital.

This is based on what I remember and important only. Karma is definitely real. Not happens yet does not mean it's not real. It's just a matter of time.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 6 2020, 03:06 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 6 2020, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 02:28 PM)
Actually we won't know the speed. It might just depend on Buddha to decide or he got set how the system will do automatically. Karma can come quickly or slowly or carry to your next life. But what I noticed is those who bad to me really got karma only. Although the time could be different to receive it.

Just give a little example of my karma experience only. No force you to believe. Primary school got 1 Indian fellow gangster beat and bully me, few months later his mother passed away.

I took gula2 from giant, went back home, accidentally canned food fall down and cut my legs much bloods.

Gov fitnah n charged me and malicious prosecution. Then barang naik fallen and bijan and his gang all got charged and those involved got sued in court now by pastor wife.

Got 1 ktard silent stalker defamed me many years ago, straightaway his kids admitted hospital.

This is based on what I remember and important only. Karma is definitely real. No happens yet does not mean it's not real. It's just a matter of time.
*
No predictability, unfalsifiable, dismissed !
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 02:26 PM)
Haha what's the relevance to the thread ? You are risking of being reported as spamming if you make only such a post.
*
Think about deeply since you open this thread.

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post Apr 6 2020, 04:27 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 02:28 PM)
Actually we won't know the speed. It might just depend on Buddha to decide or he got to set how the system will do automatically. Karma can come quickly or slowly or carry to your next life. But what I noticed is those who bad to me really got karma only. Although the time could be different to receive it.

Just give a little example of my karma experience only. No force you to believe. Primary school got one gangster always beat and bullies me, a few months later his mother passed away.

I took gula2 from somewhere, went back home, accidentally canned food fall down and cut my legs much blood.

Gov fitnah n charged me and malicious prosecution. Then barang naik fallen and bijan and his gang all got charged and those involved got sued in court now by pastor wife.

Got 1 ktard silent stalker defamed me many years ago, straightaway his kids admitted hospital.

This is based on what I remember and important only. Karma is definitely real. Not happens yet does not mean it's not real. It's just a matter of time.
*
This is equivalent to not saying anything at all.

Poor mother she had done nothing to you. How about the father?

Poor kids they did nothing to you. How about his wife? His mother no?

This is just lame ...
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:29 PM

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QUOTE(cmytwk @ Apr 6 2020, 04:06 PM)
Think about deeply since you open this thread.

smile.gif
*
Have you since you made a silly reply?
SUSuamcy
post Apr 6 2020, 04:30 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:27 PM)
This is equivalent to not saying anything at all.

Poor mother she had done nothing to you. How about the father?

Poor kids they did nothing to you. How about his wife? His mother no?

This is just lame ...
*
You are ignorant if you think your karma will only affect yourself alone.
SUSuamcy
post Apr 6 2020, 04:32 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:29 PM)
This is just lame ...
*
Like the blood, karma will pass down to children and this unavoidable trap will press them down. Karma is the sin that you have committed and this will pass down to your children. Also it's a restraint that you have inherited from your ancestors.Mar 5, 2017

https://medium.com/onemul/karma-will-pass-d...wn-80c9601fdf2c

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 6 2020, 04:32 PM
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:32 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:30 PM)
You are ignorant if you think your karma will only affect yourself alone.
*
That is a straw man you set up for yourself.
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:32 PM)
Like the blood, karma will pass down to children and this unavoidable trap will press them down. Karma is the sin that you have committed and this will pass down to your children. Also it's a restraint that you have inherited from your ancestors.Mar 5, 2017

https://medium.com/onemul/karma-will-pass-d...wn-80c9601fdf2c
*
If i give you a few verses from the Quran that says not karma but God would you accept it?
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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:29 PM)
Have you since you made a silly reply?
*
Ooppsssss...... sweat.gif
SUSuamcy
post Apr 6 2020, 04:36 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:33 PM)
If i give you a few verses from the Quran that says not karma but God would you accept it?
*
I have heard people those guillotine executioner, their next life will suffer some kind of neck pain. I know you won't believe it. Just nerve problem rite...
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:36 PM)
I have heard people those guillotine executioner, their next life will suffer some kind of neck pain. I know you won't believe it. Just nerve problem rite...
*
If you can't accept that it is God according to the Quran, not karma, why would I accept yours? What made yours different than a wall of texts?
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:27 PM)
Poor mother she had done nothing to you. How about the father?

*
He invited the whole class for her mother's funeral. The teacher arranged bus to his house. After the incident, his personality totally changed. No longer being a bully. You cannot imagine the sadness he had suffered for him to change completely. If you think it's fun, continue it.
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:41 PM)
He invited the whole class for her mother's funeral. The teacher arranged bus to his house. After the incident, his personality totally changed. No longer being a bully. You cannot imagine the sadness he had suffered for him to change completely. If you think it's fun, continue it.
*
She as an individual person has done anything to the person?
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:58 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:42 PM)
She as an individual person has done anything to the person?
*
The bully experienced the saddest moment of his life. Something precious which he lost it permanently.
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post Apr 6 2020, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 04:58 PM)
The bully experienced the saddest moment of his life. Something precious which he lost it permanently.
*
So you are saying his mother suffered/died because of her son bad karma?

This post has been edited by Spear2: Apr 6 2020, 05:00 PM
Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 06:34 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:59 PM)
So you are saying his mother suffered/died because of her son bad  karma?
*
Dude this is so mess up
It's like getting dung just because of other people mistake
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post Apr 6 2020, 06:58 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 06:34 PM)
Dude this is so mess up
It's like getting dung just because of other people mistake
*
karma things hard to explain. Not sure how they decide. For example, if spear is stubborn, police already asked him to stay at home but he still wanted to go out to meet his gf and dunno where did he contracted with the coronavirus and then infected his whole family.

Btw I am not sure why his closed one passed away. It could be due to heartbroken or stroke after canning his son or scolding him or whatsoever. If it's destined, you cannot avoid it. For example, if you are destined to get injured, the injury may come from anywhere. It does not mean if you're hiding inside your house then you won't be injured. Got lorry just rammed inside a house out of sudden.

user posted image

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 6 2020, 07:02 PM
Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 07:05 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 06:58 PM)
karma things hard to explain. Not sure how they decide. For example, if spear is stubborn, police already asked him to stay at home but he still wanted to go out to meet his gf and dunno where did he contracted with the coronavirus and then infected his whole family.

Btw I am not sure why his closed one passed away. It could be due to heartbroken or stroke after canning his son or scolding him or whatsoever. If it's destined, you cannot avoid it. For example, if you are destined to get injured, the injury may come from anywhere. It does not mean if you're hiding inside your house then you won't be injured. Got lorry just rammed inside a house out of sudden.

user posted image
*
Never thought of coincidence that wrongly mistaken as karma
There are people escape from karma, what does that mean?
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post Apr 6 2020, 07:14 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 07:05 PM)
Never thought of coincidence that wrongly mistaken as karma
There are people escape from karma, what does that mean?
*
You won't know it until your next life. It's not escaped, just it's not happened yet on your this life. You will pay it some other days. Becoming a buffalo cow also bad enough to be kissed by the lions all the time in the wild.
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post Apr 6 2020, 07:42 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:23 PM)
In this post I want to explain the experiment to disprove karmic action.

The experiment is pretty simple.

Just collect 50 samples of living things. To avoid human morality issue, do it on ants.

Randomly split 50 ants of the sample into 25,25 and put them in two different containers.

Container A you spray insecticide on it. Container B you do not.

The outcome is pretty predictable. No matter how you choose to split the sample, ants in container A always ended up dead. That means irrespective of whatever their past lives, they are made to die. Those in container A are guaranteed to die, it does not matter what their past lives were.

Therefore karmic action cannot be guaranteed. The real cause of their death is actually the spray of insecticides on them. Their past lives have no part to play.

Just do the same thought experiment using human. Then you will see that karma is either untrue or useless.
*
But they believe because of the bad karma they had accumulated in the past and therefore, chosen to be in the container which you will put pesticides in.

Idk, but it seem karma still plays a part here?

This post has been edited by NicoRobinz: Apr 6 2020, 07:42 PM
Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 07:42 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 07:14 PM)
You won't know it until your next life. It's not escaped, just it's not happened yet on your this life. You will pay it some other days. Becoming a buffalo cow also bad enough to be kissed by the lions all the time in the wild.
*
Can you prove it that each on of us will be reincarnated after death? I mean till today no solid prove that there's will be next live biggrin.gif
Why we have to wait for karma that long, why not somewhere near
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post Apr 6 2020, 08:03 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 07:42 PM)
Can you prove it that each on of us will be reincarnated after death? I mean till today no solid prove that there's will be next live biggrin.gif
Why we have to wait for karma that long, why not somewhere near
*
It's like you try going into any place of worship and asking the people there to prove GOD? ohmy.gif

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 6 2020, 08:04 PM
Pikichu
post Apr 6 2020, 08:05 PM

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QUOTE
karma things hard to explain. Not sure how they decide. For example, if spear is stubborn, police already asked him to stay at home but he still wanted to go out to meet his gf and dunno where did he contracted with the coronavirus and then infected his whole family.

Btw I am not sure why his closed one passed away. It could be due to heartbroken or stroke after canning his son or scolding him or whatsoever. If it's destined, you cannot avoid it. For example, if you are destined to get injured, the injury may come from anywhere. It does not mean if you're hiding inside your house then you won't be injured. Got lorry just rammed inside a house out of sudden.
*
QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 6 2020, 04:59 PM)
So you are saying his mother suffered/died because of her son bad  karma?
*
uamcy is saying, "his closed one passed away" probably "due to heartbroken or stroke after canning his son or scolding him or whatsoever"
Now do you understand karma or do you want to be caned?
You cannot hide from karma. Karma will drive a lorry ram into your house.

You call it god, they call it karma. Don't pray-pray biggrin.gif LOL

This post has been edited by Pikichu: Apr 6 2020, 08:05 PM
Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 08:10 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 08:03 PM)
It's like you try going into any place of worship and asking the people there to prove GOD?  ohmy.gif
*
Uh, why not? Those people should know something right, or else what's the purpose of them worshipping
They will probably say "believe" rather than "proving"
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post Apr 6 2020, 08:16 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 08:10 PM)
Uh, why not? Those people should know something right, or else what's the purpose of them worshipping
They will probably say "believe" rather than "proving"
*
If now I bring you back to the Ming Dynasty, are you sure you can prove bacteria exist?


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post Apr 6 2020, 08:36 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 07:42 PM)
Can you prove it that each on of us will be reincarnated after death? I mean till today no solid prove that there's will be next live biggrin.gif
Why we have to wait for karma that long, why not somewhere near
*
There is solid proof but there are still people who refused to acknowledge the truth.

This is a famous researcher Dr Brian Weiss, and you can consult him to go back to one of your past life.

There are many others but start with him



This post has been edited by jalsrix: Apr 6 2020, 08:36 PM
Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 08:48 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 08:16 PM)
If now I bring you back to the Ming Dynasty, are you sure you can prove bacteria exist?
*
Yes exist back then, might be extinct today depends on which types are you saying
What are you trying to prove? God exist back then, but not now?
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post Apr 6 2020, 08:57 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 08:48 PM)
Yes exist back then, might be extinct today depends on which types are you saying
What are you trying to prove? God exist back then, but not now?
*
Of course, now you know it exists. But if now I bring you back to Ming Dynasty but you don't even know how to build a microscope and hence if you tell people bacteria is real, they will say you are nonsense. What you cannot prove now does not mean no one can prove it with something physical in the future. Cannot be proven does not mean not to exist. Digest my words before you go to sleep tonight.
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:08 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 08:57 PM)
Of course, now you know it exists. But if now I bring you back to Ming Dynasty but you don't even know how to build a microscope and hence if you tell people bacteria is real, they will say you are nonsense. What you cannot prove now does not mean no one can prove it with something physical in the future. Cannot be proven does not mean not to exist. Digest my words before you go to sleep tonight.
*
Back in the days ok no microscope cannot tell it exisit, but when bacteria infected an individual there must be symptoms like sick, cold, flu. Some deadly strain caused death.
You said God exist, what can we see? What impact on human? Non
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:09 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 09:08 PM)
Back in the days ok no microscope cannot tell it exisit, but when bacteria infected an individual there must be symptoms like sick, cold, flu. Some deadly strain caused death.
You said God exist, what can we see? What impact on human? Non
*
Comets don't do any impact on your life too but does it mean comets do not exist? You might not be having any chance to see any comets too during the ming dynasty.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 6 2020, 09:10 PM
Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 09:16 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 09:09 PM)
Comets don't do any impact on your life too but does it mean comets do not exist? You might not be having any chance to see any comets too during the ming dynasty.
*
Comets we can see it clearly (if we get the chance) doesn't need to be proven. Everyone could see that
But God something ....we cant prove and see
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:22 PM

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This post has been edited by Chrono-Trigger: Apr 23 2020, 08:10 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 6 2020, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 09:16 PM)
Comets we can see it clearly (if we get the chance) doesn't need to be proven. Everyone could see that
But God something ....we cant prove and see
*
No, You wont have any chance to see it also. Not you want to see then can see in the past. Even now also you won't have a chance to see a comet with your own eyes right in the skies. You slow2 wait for the comet to come outside your house perhaps. laugh.gif Dun sleep every night waiting for it to come.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 6 2020, 09:26 PM
Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 09:28 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 09:22 PM)
No, You wont have any chance to see it also. Not you want to see then can see in the past. Even now also you also wont have a chance to see a comet with your own eyes right in the skies.
*
It's okay cannot witness, go Google and search for comets, we can see that it
But god, please I can't see anything at all, how to prove that
Believe is another story
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:30 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 6 2020, 09:22 PM)
Ehipasiko - come and see for yourself.

The Dhamma taught by the Blessed One is not confined to just what, but also the ways, methods, paths that one needs to train to be able to verify it.

karma is a very complex topic.
*
Train to be able to verify = more like train to believe that its there biggrin.gif
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:36 PM

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post Apr 6 2020, 09:38 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 6 2020, 09:36 PM)
well... I am willing to give it a try but it's not everyone's cup of tea smile.gif
*
It's okay...I respect your efforts smile.gif
No bad feeling
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:42 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 09:28 PM)
It's okay cannot witness, go Google and search for comets, we can see that it
But god, please I can't see anything at all, how to prove that
Believe is another story
*
Ming dynasty you can google mer? Who knows 1000 years later people can prove? You can live long enough to wait or not? Now you go back ming dynasty and tell the people there in future people can go to moon, they will say you are nonsense.
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Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 09:47 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 09:42 PM)
Ming dynasty you can google mer? Who knows 1000 years later people can prove? You can live long enough to wait or not? Now you go back ming dynasty and tell the people there in future people can go to moon, they will say you are nonsense.
*
Cannn..after 1000 years, technologies will be among top even easier for people in future
There's no need to move backwards, we should move forward
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:48 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 09:47 PM)
Cannn..after 1000 years, technologies will be among top even easier for people in future
There's no need to move backwards, we should move forward
*
Not ask you to move backwards, just to tell you what cannot be proven now not necessarily not exist.

If now I tell you mco confirm will extend till the end of the month and I came from the future, will you believe? You won't right.

But time will prove I am not lying.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 6 2020, 09:50 PM
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:50 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 6 2020, 09:42 PM)
never bad feeling

but just saying , if you are able to see for yourself how past is related to present and present to future, your view on the world, and thing you call "self" will definitely change.

peace
*
There are limitation from my POV
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 09:48 PM)
Not ask you to move backwards, just to tell you what cannot be proven now not necessarily not exist.

If now I tell you mco confirm will extend till the end of the month and I came from the future, will you believe? You won't right.
*
What makes it that God can be proven in future but not now and the past? I can't accept lul smile.gif

This post has been edited by Captain89: Apr 6 2020, 09:54 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 6 2020, 09:56 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 09:53 PM)
What makes it that God can be proven in future but not now and the past?
*
You mean those Buddhist holy scriptures ,bible, Quran are fake?

Chrono-Trigger will angry you if you say yes. He doing lots of research on Buddhist holy scriptures blush.gif
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post Apr 6 2020, 09:59 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 6 2020, 09:56 PM)
You mean those Buddhist holy scriptures ,bible, Quran are fake?

Chrono-Trigger will angry you if you say yes. He doing lots of research on Buddhist holy scriptures  blush.gif
*
IMO I can't say yes haha but neither
Different people, different opinions, different angle of view on something rite
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:20 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 09:50 PM)
There are limitation from my POV
*
Such as?
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:23 PM

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Captain89
post Apr 6 2020, 10:26 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 6 2020, 10:20 PM)
Such as?
*
In believing that karma exist
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:32 PM

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Pikichu
post Apr 6 2020, 10:34 PM

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QUOTE(jalsrix @ Apr 6 2020, 08:36 PM)
There is solid proof but there are still people who refused to acknowledge the truth.

This is a famous researcher Dr Brian Weiss, and you can consult him to go back to one of your past life.
There are many others but start with him
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
1. What truth? Reincarnation?
2. Can you share here / explain the solid proof to Puchongite ?

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post Apr 6 2020, 10:40 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 6 2020, 10:32 PM)
Like gravity , whether u believe or not , it’s irrelevant. When u jump off a cliff , you will fall to the ground. It does not discriminate. It’s a natural law

So u think your being in this world is a coincidence?
*
Why not based on luck. When a person did something bad, coincidence that something bad happened and everyone call it karma ok, but this could be 50/50 where nothing happened to that person what do we call that?

Why mostly looked upon and humble individual die first instead of the bad ones?
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:42 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 6 2020, 10:32 PM)
Like gravity , whether u believe or not , it’s irrelevant. When u jump off a cliff , you will fall to the ground irrespective of your belief. It does not discriminate. It’s a natural law.
*
Please distinguish present world karma from karma which spans across generation.

Present world karma could be fitted into scientific model and natural law, but not karma over multi generation.

Multi generation karma is either untrue, or it is useless.
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post Apr 6 2020, 10:53 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:42 PM)
Please distinguish present world karma from karma which spans across generation.

Present world karma could be fitted into scientific model and natural law, but not karma over multi generation.

Multi generation karma is either untrue, or it is useless.
*
Sometime I stand for
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post Apr 6 2020, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(Captain89 @ Apr 6 2020, 10:53 PM)
Sometime I stand for
*
My England not so powderful. What you say ?
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post Apr 6 2020, 11:04 PM

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Is killing a mosquito going to give you positive karma or a negative karma ?
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post Apr 6 2020, 11:23 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:01 PM)
My England not so powderful. What you say ?
*
Paiseh autocorrect biggrin.gif
Your England way better than mine la
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post Apr 7 2020, 01:28 AM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 6 2020, 10:34 PM)
1. What truth? Reincarnation?
2. Can you share here / explain the solid proof to Puchongite ?
*
Look. We can argue for years and years here without agreeing.

The best is you go and have a session with the guy in the video. Your memory and feelings is the best proof. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by jalsrix: Apr 7 2020, 01:29 AM
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post Apr 7 2020, 01:33 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:04 PM)
Is killing a mosquito going to give you positive karma or a negative karma ?
*
Your understanding of Buddhism is very poor.

All living beings have hierarchies. So mosquito is very low and incur very little if any karma.

Killing a human being > mammal > bird/chicken > fish > insects

Even a human being has many levels.

Killing buddha > bodhisatva > arhat > virtuous person (donate money, help poor etc) > bad person (snatch thiefs, bully) > murderer

Everything is based on hierarchy in the universe.

Black hole > Galaxy > Solar System > Sun > Planet > Moon

This post has been edited by jalsrix: Apr 7 2020, 01:38 AM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 7 2020, 06:14 AM

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QUOTE(jalsrix @ Apr 7 2020, 01:33 AM)
Your understanding of Buddhism is very poor.

All living beings have hierarchies. So mosquito is very low and incur very little if any karma.

Killing a human being > mammal > bird/chicken > fish > insects

Even a human being has many levels.

Killing buddha > bodhisatva > arhat > virtuous person (donate money, help poor etc) > bad person (snatch thiefs, bully) > murderer

Everything is based on hierarchy in the universe.

Black hole > Galaxy > Solar System > Sun > Planet > Moon
*
That's not my question. You admitted that there is karma to every action, so my question is does it give you positive or negative karma. I am not asking whether it is big or small.


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post Apr 7 2020, 07:48 AM

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Everything that exist must be demonstrated to exist. Is a simple principle everybody must adhere to live a impactful life.

Karma can't be demonstrated it exist. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Leave it to the scientist go and discover them if you must. But meanwhile, please ignore.

There are a million more things that violate this principle. Please don't spend energy on them.
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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 06:14 AM)
That's not my question. You admitted that there is karma to every action, so my question is does it give you positive or negative karma. I am not asking whether it is big or small.
*
Wow! Looks like my scoring hypothesis for reincarnation fits the Buddhism hierarchy system well! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 07:48 AM)
Everything that exist must be demonstrated to exist. Is a simple principle everybody must adhere to live a impactful life.

Karma can't be demonstrated it exist. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Leave it to the scientist go and discover them if you must. But meanwhile, please ignore.

There are a million more things that violate this principle. Please don't spend energy on them.
*
Don't agree. Things that can't be proven to exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The important thing is to keep an open mind and try to eventually prove (or disprove) its existence rather than blindly 100% believe that it exist without convincing evidence.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 08:20 AM
ramz
post Apr 7 2020, 08:20 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 08:18 AM)
Wow! Looks like my scoring hypothesis for reincarnation fits the Buddhism hierarchy system well! biggrin.gif
Don't agree. Things that can't be proven to exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The important thing is to keep an open mind and try to eventually prove its existence rather than blindly 100% believe that it exist.
*
Well I agree. That's the reason of my 2nd paragraph. I'm referring to what a layman should do, and what a scientist should do

This post has been edited by ramz: Apr 7 2020, 08:22 AM
kmarc
post Apr 7 2020, 08:25 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 08:20 AM)
Well I agree. That's the reason of my 2nd paragraph.
*
Ya, but for the 2nd paragraph, my view is that karma cannot be proven but it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. Like any scientific research, we may not yet have the tools to measure it. Maybe in a million years.

For now, many hope for its existence because it feels good to see karma power especially on bad evil humans! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 08:26 AM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 7 2020, 08:32 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 08:18 AM)
Wow! Looks like my scoring hypothesis for reincarnation fits the Buddhism hierarchy system well! biggrin.gif

*
Actually it did not prove you were right. The karma is the score board (cause), which we all agree. After using the score, but the karma EFFECT can be manifested into :-

1. The life form in the next rebirth
2. The nature of one's life in the next rebirth ( sad, happy, disgracing etc )
3. The combination of 1 and 2.

Your argument is that the karma effect is limited to only 1, which I think such interpretation is rare ! Most people take it as 3.


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post Apr 7 2020, 08:38 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 08:25 AM)
Ya, but for the 2nd paragraph, my view is that karma cannot be proven but it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. Like any scientific research, we may not yet have the tools to measure it. Maybe in a million years.

For now, many hope for its existence because it feels good to see karma power especially on bad evil humans! biggrin.gif
*
Ok. Do the research. But meanwhile , the layman people get on with our lives as though it doesn't exist. Ignore it. Unless you are the scientist.

Maybe for karma the impact is low on how evil it can become. But believing in something that doesn't exist got demonstratable evil impact. In Malaysia, you see apostates and LGBT being discriminated, just a small sample of the evil impact that can manifest.
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post Apr 7 2020, 08:51 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 08:38 AM)
Ok. Do the research. But meanwhile , the layman people get on with our lives as though it doesn't exist. Ignore it. Unless you are the scientist.

Maybe for karma the impact is low on how evil it can become. But believing in something that doesn't exist got demonstratable evil impact. In Malaysia, you see apostates and LGBT being discriminated, just a small sample of the evil impact that can manifest.
*
That's not true. Karma has a big part to play in lives of Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists. It's quite core to their morality.
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post Apr 7 2020, 08:55 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 08:51 AM)
That's not true. Karma has a big part to play in lives of Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists. It's quite core to their morality.
*
I'm proposing we ignore karma. I of course know in reality it is not like that.
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post Apr 7 2020, 09:04 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 08:25 AM)
Ya, but for the 2nd paragraph, my view is that karma cannot be proven but it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. Like any scientific research, we may not yet have the tools to measure it. Maybe in a million years.

For now, many hope for its existence because it feels good to see karma power especially on bad evil humans! biggrin.gif
*
There are a few issues with Karma.

1. Before anything, does Karma exist? This is still a question that cannot be answered.
2. If it exist, who set Karma, is it natural, or someone set it? uamcy mentioned that buddha set it? But I thought Buddha only gotten his enlightenment around 400-500BC? Before that, no karma? Or?
3. Does it has a consistent characteristic? E.g. if you want to attribute the death of someone's mother to karma for the person bullying, does that mean all bully will receive equally harsh punishment? If karma is fair, then it has to have a consistent characteristic. Otherwise, then it's a bias mechanism.
4. Most importantly, to those who claim karma exist, are you so sure that karma behaves according to what you think? How sure are you that it could span over generations, or timing is inconsistent etc etc?

Going back to something that wasn't provable in the past, but is provable now like bacteria.
Before we prove bacteria, we cannot say it definitely exist.
However, even before that, we can see its characteristic. We can observe its effect.
In the past, even though we cannot directly observe bacteria, doctors still managed to find ways to treat illnesses etc.
This is because something that exist has a consistent characteristic.

Also, when we don't understand bacteria, we cannot say for sure whether your sickness is due to virus, bacteria, or simply auto-immune attack etc.
So, I'm having problem understanding why can we attribute things to karma as though we have fully understand, and proven it.
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post Apr 7 2020, 09:16 AM

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Originated from Brahmaism, Karma is not like 1+1=2, there are many variables (conditions) that can affect the outcomes and what is the first cause and effect, the effect can become the cause of another outcome.

In Taoism, there is an observation made that your past ancestors can affect you and future generations due to the linkage of the Life, DNA.
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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 09:04 AM)
There are a few issues with Karma.

1. Before anything, does Karma exist? This is still a question that cannot be answered.
2. If it exist, who set Karma, is it natural, or someone set it? uamcy mentioned that buddha set it? But I thought Buddha only gotten his enlightenment around 400-500BC? Before that, no karma? Or?
3. Does it has a consistent characteristic? E.g. if you want to attribute the death of someone's mother to karma for the person bullying, does that mean all bully will receive equally harsh punishment? If karma is fair, then it has to have a consistent characteristic. Otherwise, then it's a bias mechanism.
4. Most importantly, to those who claim karma exist, are you so sure that karma behaves according to what you think? How sure are you that it could span over generations, or timing is inconsistent etc etc?

Going back to something that wasn't provable in the past, but is provable now like bacteria.
Before we prove bacteria, we cannot say it definitely exist.
However, even before that, we can see its characteristic. We can observe its effect.
In the past, even though we cannot directly observe bacteria, doctors still managed to find ways to treat illnesses etc.
This is because something that exist has a consistent characteristic.

Also, when we don't understand bacteria, we cannot say for sure whether your sickness is due to virus, bacteria, or simply auto-immune attack etc.
So, I'm having problem understanding why can we attribute things to karma as though we have fully understand, and proven it.
*
Ignore uamcy, lots of garbage. Not worth paying attention to. Good for entertainment value.

Most people think karma is a natural law. But this natural law they don't have a formula for it. And thus it does not have a consistent characteristics. I already asked since the first post, is there a consistent prediction to karma? Most of the believers eeee--aarrr--eeee-aaarr biting their teeth talking something else. I think most of them sort of acknowledged that there is none.

And I would like to make the claim that, if karma is said to have a consistent characteristics, then I would be able to disprove it. But if it is wishy washy, then it is unfalsifiable, nothing can be done to prove or disprove.

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post Apr 7 2020, 09:20 AM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 7 2020, 09:16 AM)
Originated from Brahmaism, Karma is not like 1+1=2, there are many variables (conditions) that can affect the outcomes and what is the first cause and effect, the effect can become the cause of another outcome.

In Taoism, there is an observation made that your past ancestors can affect you and future generations due to the linkage of the Life, DNA.
*
All we need is evidence. Nice stories doesn't make it true.

So far I read this thread, there are 0 evidence. But instead I'm getting evidence to the contrary. The karma supporters need to give evidence, then we moving ahead.
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post Apr 7 2020, 09:28 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 09:20 AM)
All we need is evidence. Nice stories doesn't make it true.

So far I read this thread, there are 0 evidence. But instead I'm getting evidence to the contrary. The karma supporters need to give evidence, then we moving ahead.
*
Nah, we don't need evidence yet.
We need them to demonstrate that there is consistency in Karma, given they act as though it's a well understood aspect.
Basically, we need them to demonstrate that Karma is falsifiable first. Then only we can address evidence.
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post Apr 7 2020, 09:29 AM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 7 2020, 09:16 AM)
Originated from Brahmaism, Karma is not like 1+1=2, there are many variables (conditions) that can affect the outcomes and what is the first cause and effect, the effect can become the cause of another outcome.
In other words, the karma hypotheses has not provided claim which has predictability. It is unfalsifiable.

QUOTE
In Taoism, there is an observation made that your past ancestors can affect you and future generations due to the linkage of the Life, DNA.
*
This is called retrofitting. Religion does this all the time. When such thing happens, credit should be given to the discovery of DNA. Zero credit to be given to the Taoist claim which has been interpreted to fit the DNA explanation.
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post Apr 7 2020, 09:29 AM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 7 2020, 09:16 AM)
Originated from Brahmaism, Karma is not like 1+1=2, there are many variables (conditions) that can affect the outcomes and what is the first cause and effect, the effect can become the cause of another outcome.

In Taoism, there is an observation made that your past ancestors can affect you and future generations due to the linkage of the Life, DNA.
*
Useless to tell TS all this. His intention to open this thread is for trolling purposes only. He already pre-set the mindset of Karma is fake, so no matter what you gonna tell him will not change his mind. Even if a ghost appears in front of him also he will force himself to believe he has a hallucination.

It's like to argue that your house to have a TV is fake because you cannot prove to him that you are even living in a house now with a TV inside. Stubborn mindset is no cure. Only time will make him regret some other days but that time it's too late for regret.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 7 2020, 09:31 AM
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post Apr 7 2020, 09:31 AM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 09:28 AM)
Nah, we don't need evidence yet.
We need them to demonstrate that there is consistency in Karma, given they act as though it's a well understood aspect.
Basically, we need them to demonstrate that Karma is falsifiable first. Then only we can address evidence.
*
Right on the dot !
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post Apr 7 2020, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 08:32 AM)
Actually it did not prove you were right. The karma is the score board (cause), which we all agree. After using the score, but the karma EFFECT can be manifested into :-

1. The life form in the next rebirth
2. The nature of one's life in the next rebirth ( sad, happy, disgracing etc )
3. The combination of 1 and 2.

Your argument is that the karma effect is limited to only 1, which I think such interpretation is rare ! Most people take it as 3.
*
No la. I had no intention of proving right or wrong. Just acting like a typical person who tries to justify his/her belief where there seems to be always an answer for everything, whether right or wrong. And when cornered, the answer always fall back to "because it is like that" or "because God says so".
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QUOTE(ramz @ Apr 7 2020, 08:38 AM)
Ok. Do the research. But meanwhile , the layman people get on with our lives as though it doesn't exist. Ignore it. Unless you are the scientist.

Maybe for karma the impact is low on how evil it can become. But believing in something that doesn't exist got demonstratable evil impact. In Malaysia, you see apostates and LGBT being discriminated, just a small sample of the evil impact that can manifest.
*
Fair enough. But it doesn't stop the wonderful feeling of "pandan muka" to bad people when karma strikes! biggrin.gif
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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 09:04 AM)
There are a few issues with Karma.

1. Before anything, does Karma exist? This is still a question that cannot be answered.
2. If it exist, who set Karma, is it natural, or someone set it? uamcy mentioned that buddha set it? But I thought Buddha only gotten his enlightenment around 400-500BC? Before that, no karma? Or?
3. Does it has a consistent characteristic? E.g. if you want to attribute the death of someone's mother to karma for the person bullying, does that mean all bully will receive equally harsh punishment? If karma is fair, then it has to have a consistent characteristic. Otherwise, then it's a bias mechanism.
4. Most importantly, to those who claim karma exist, are you so sure that karma behaves according to what you think? How sure are you that it could span over generations, or timing is inconsistent etc etc?

Going back to something that wasn't provable in the past, but is provable now like bacteria.
Before we prove bacteria, we cannot say it definitely exist.
However, even before that, we can see its characteristic. We can observe its effect.
In the past, even though we cannot directly observe bacteria, doctors still managed to find ways to treat illnesses etc.
This is because something that exist has a consistent characteristic.

Also, when we don't understand bacteria, we cannot say for sure whether your sickness is due to virus, bacteria, or simply auto-immune attack etc.
So, I'm having problem understanding why can we attribute things to karma as though we have fully understand, and proven it.
*
Yeah, exactly like theist when they talk about God. They will say, "We can never understand God. He works in mysterious ways."

Apply that to karma, "We can never understand karma. It works in mysterious ways". biggrin.gif

So when something happens, it will either be, "God dealt out the punishment" for theist and "that's karma in action" for others.... for the same exact scenario.


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post Apr 7 2020, 10:08 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 10:04 AM)
Yeah, exactly like theist when they talk about God. They will say, "We can never understand God. He works in mysterious ways."

Apply that to karma, "We can never understand karma. It works in mysterious ways". biggrin.gif

So when something happens, it will either be, "God dealt out the punishment" for theist and "that's karma in action" for others.... for the same exact scenario.
*
If you can never understand it, then you have to acknowledge you may not be doing it the right way.
You have no way to verify whether what you do is correct or wrong.

Just like if a world don't understand trigonometry, and I gave you a trigonometry question, your fail or pass depends on it.
Doing it according to what some people who equally don't understand it, vs. doing it whatever !@#$ ways you want, is the same.
You're likely to get it wrong anyway.

So, why bother learning from someone who equally don't understand?

But if you claim you know, understand etc, then you have to demonstrate its consistency.
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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 10:08 AM)
If you can never understand it, then you have to acknowledge you may not be doing it the right way.
You have no way to verify whether what you do is correct or wrong.

Just like if a world don't understand trigonometry, and I gave you a trigonometry question, your fail or pass depends on it.
Doing it according to what some people who equally don't understand it, vs. doing it whatever !@#$ ways you want, is the same.
You're likely to get it wrong anyway.

So, why bother learning from someone who equally don't understand?

But if you claim you know, understand etc, then you have to demonstrate its consistency.
*
Don't understand. Doing what the right way? Learning what from someone?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 7 2020, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 10:12 AM)
Don't understand. Doing what the right way? Learning what from someone?
*
I mean, if you say, karma works in mysterious way, unexplainable etc.
Means, you don't understand karma.
So, how would you know how karma behaves?
How would you know that doing X deed = good deeds and therefore gain you good karma, Y deed = bad deeds and therefore gain you bad karma etc?

Perhaps stealing is good karma, who knows?
Perhaps giving alms is bad karma, who can say? Since karma works in mysterious ways.

And now, what we do is we listen to people who claims how karma works. Yet when pressed for more, they don't know.
So, are we learning from these people to determine what is good karma, what is bad karma?

Is karma based on "objective morality" or "subjective morality"? Or is it simply intention?

This post has been edited by GentlemanTroll: Apr 7 2020, 10:20 AM
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post Apr 7 2020, 10:23 AM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 10:19 AM)
I mean, if you say, karma works in mysterious way, unexplainable etc.
Means, you don't understand karma.
So, how would you know how karma behaves?
How would you know that doing X deed = good deeds and therefore gain you good karma, Y deed = bad deeds and therefore gain you bad karma etc?

Perhaps stealing is good karma, who knows?
Perhaps giving alms is bad karma, who can say? Since karma works in mysterious ways.

And now, what we do is we listen to people who claims how karma works. Yet when pressed for more, they don't know.
So, are we learning from these people to determine what is good karma, what is bad karma?

Is karma based on "objective morality" or "subjective morality"?
*
Haha, you got me all wrong. I'm talking about the people who believes in God or Karma. Their belief, stance and reaction are almost the same, just have to substitute the word "God" and "karma" and you'll find that the sentences fit perfectly!!!!

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 10:23 AM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 7 2020, 10:24 AM

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QUOTE(GentlemanTroll @ Apr 7 2020, 10:19 AM)
I mean, if you say, karma works in mysterious way, unexplainable etc.
Means, you don't understand karma.
So, how would you know how karma behaves?
How would you know that doing X deed = good deeds and therefore gain you good karma, Y deed = bad deeds and therefore gain you bad karma etc?

Perhaps stealing is good karma, who knows?
Perhaps giving alms is bad karma, who can say? Since karma works in mysterious ways.

And now, what we do is we listen to people who claims how karma works. Yet when pressed for more, they don't know.
So, are we learning from these people to determine what is good karma, what is bad karma?

Is karma based on "objective morality" or "subjective morality"? Or is it simply intention?
*
I asked the question, is killing a mosquito going to add positive mark or a negative mark to the karma ?

No answer yet.

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 10:24 AM)
I asked the question, is killing a mosquito going to add positive mark or a negative mark to the karma ?

No answer yet.
*
Can I answer for the experts? It is negative mark.

Read this : https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/kill-impuls...-favorite-pest/

Do read the whole thing. Is it, as usual, interesting to see what humans can cook up.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 7 2020, 10:44 AM
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post Apr 7 2020, 10:44 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 10:38 AM)
Can I answer for the experts? It is negative mark.

Read this : https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/kill-impuls...-favorite-pest/
*
What if the mosquitoes carry virus which can kill another person ? Isn't that protecting the life of another person a positive mark ?


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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 10:44 AM)
What if the mosquitoes carry virus which can kill another person ? Isn't that protecting the life of another person a positive mark ?
*
So fast? Read the whole article la. It is interesting to see what people can cook up and explain in detail on their beliefs.
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post Apr 7 2020, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 7 2020, 10:45 AM)
So fast? Read the whole article la. It is interesting to see what people can cook up and explain in detail on their beliefs.
*
I only call for positive or negative as the answer I need. Should I be bothered with the details ?
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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 10:47 AM)
I only call for positive or negative as the answer I need. Should I be bothered with the details ?
*
Ya, if you read the article, the answer is mostly in there. While the article is unbelievable to some of us, it is again, interesting to see how people can belief in such things, so much so that there are detailed explanations on certain things that seems so.... incredulous.
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post Apr 7 2020, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 7 2020, 06:14 AM)
That's not my question. You admitted that there is karma to every action, so my question is does it give you positive or negative karma. I am not asking whether it is big or small.
*
We are not gods nor did Buddha explain everything in detail. Even Jesus didn't explain everything in detail or else it will fill the entire planet. The knowledge of the universe is too vast.

Buddha's sutra of Karma only to list out general effects of one's actions when his disciple asked him why people are born blind,poor, rich, beautiful etc.

Buddha only concentrated on things that are most important. At that time, paper wasn't invented yet so how many things can you remember?

The Sutras were written 500 years after his death.

You can't learn everything in one life or else there is no need for reincarnation.

Anyway, you ask yourself, to give yourself some understanding of level of pain....

Knife stab on heart > Knife stab on hand > Needle on hand > Mosquito bite

So karma works that way too. Do you consider a mosquito bite very bad?

This post has been edited by jalsrix: Apr 7 2020, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE(jalsrix @ Apr 7 2020, 11:36 AM)
We are not gods nor did Buddha explain everything in detail. Even Jesus didn't explain everything in detail or else it will fill the entire planet. The knowledge of the universe is too vast.

Buddha's sutra of Karma only to list out general effects of one's actions when his disciple asked him why people are born blind,poor, rich, beautiful etc.

Buddha only concentrated on things that are most important. At that time, paper wasn't invented yet so how many things can you remember?

The Sutras were written 500 years after his death.

You can't learn everything in one life or else there is no need for reincarnation.

Anyway, you ask yourself, to give yourself some understanding of level of pain....

Knife stab on heart > Knife stab on hand > Needle on hand > Mosquito bite

So karma works that way too. Do you consider a mosquito bite very bad?
*
See the bolded.

Anything you learned is not carried to the next life. So it stands to reason that you HAVE to learn everything in this current life. Why do you need to wait for the next few cycles because you will be in the same situation you are in now?

Yes, unless I'm in Japan, I consider mosquito bite very bad because it is a vector that carries illnesses such as dengue and malaria. You do know how's the dengue situation in Malaysia right?

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QUOTE(jalsrix @ Apr 7 2020, 11:36 AM)
We are not gods nor did Buddha explain everything in detail. Even Jesus didn't explain everything in detail or else it will fill the entire planet. The knowledge of the universe is too vast.

Buddha's sutra of Karma only to list out general effects of one's actions when his disciple asked him why people are born blind,poor, rich, beautiful etc.

Buddha only concentrated on things that are most important. At that time, paper wasn't invented yet so how many things can you remember?

The Sutras were written 500 years after his death.

You can't learn everything in one life or else there is no need for reincarnation.

Anyway, you ask yourself, to give yourself some understanding of level of pain....

Knife stab on heart > Knife stab on hand > Needle on hand > Mosquito bite

So karma works that way too. Do you consider a mosquito bite very bad?
*
I don't know how your argument is able to make sense. I only ask a simple question, and if you can't provide a answer to that simple question, what makes you think I need to be interested to find out more or even experience it ?

Do I need to actually experience a magic show to know if a magic show is real or unreal ?

I don't see any relevance in your question in the last paragraph.

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post Apr 7 2020, 11:52 AM

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QUOTE(jalsrix @ Apr 7 2020, 11:36 AM)
We are not gods nor did Buddha explain everything in detail. Even Jesus didn't explain everything in detail or else it will fill the entire planet. The knowledge of the universe is too vast.

Buddha's sutra of Karma only to list out general effects of one's actions when his disciple asked him why people are born blind,poor, rich, beautiful etc.

Buddha only concentrated on things that are most important. At that time, paper wasn't invented yet so how many things can you remember?

The Sutras were written 500 years after his death.

You can't learn everything in one life or else there is no need for reincarnation.

Anyway, you ask yourself, to give yourself some understanding of level of pain....

Knife stab on heart > Knife stab on hand > Needle on hand > Mosquito bite

So karma works that way too. Do you consider a mosquito bite very bad?
*
You don't need to explain in details.
You need the rule of thumb.

So, your rule of thumb is level of pain?

I.e. you're saying "Knife stab on heart > Knife stab on hand > Needle on hand > Mosquito bite"?

What about rule about physical pain vs psychologica