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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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kmarc
post Apr 5 2020, 11:41 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:10 PM)
I can perform a simple experiment to either disprove karma or to render it useless as the moral compass of our morality.

Please ask if you are interested.

I will start off the discussion by asking this question below.

Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?

This is a yes or no question.

If yes, it means one can expect to receive the karmic action of his past life.

If yes, then I can design a simple experiment to disprove karma.

If no, if means one might or might not receive the karmic retribution of his deeds in the past life. It simply lacks guarantees or predictability.

Think about the implication if you say no. It then means if one's reason to do good is because he wants to break the bad retribution, but since this retribution is not guaranteed, then it becomes bloody useless.

Please debate if you agree with me, or ask questions.
*
Since the experts can't answer satisfactorily, let me answer for them. Ahem.....

Karma is carried throughout a "consciousness" existence where the next cycle is determined by that has been done in the previous cycle.

The one that most people understand is that if you have done good in this life, you will rewarded with a better life next cycle. If you did bad, you will be demoted in the next cycle.

What happens to the ants that got the free insecticide then? Well, first of all, they were very bad in the last cycle so they were demoted to become ants. Serves them right. That's karma!!! So how are they going to get the opportunity to ascend when everybody knows ants can't do good or bad deeds. What? Ants going on a homicidal rampage then get bad karma? Or ants did good deeds by helping poor ants so get good karma? They probably don'tt understand anything at that time. Only mindless insects programmed to do their work. Punishment enough I would say.

So if the ants died suddenly, the default is that they get to ascend up the ranks... a bit. Maybe become spider. After dying, the ascend further. Up to a point where their consciousness become self aware, and they know what is good or bad. At that point in the cycle, karma kicks in, and you'll get what you deserve in the next cycle based on what you did in the previous life.

How did I do? Ok? biggrin.gif

Part 2 - So a consciousness will ding dong up and down the ranks in each cycle depending on previous cycle karma. Accidental death is not a problem because karma are carried to subsequent cycles. The best top tier rank, I guess, is to be a human Buddhist monk where your chances to enter Nirvana is the highest. If your karma was not that good, you'll become a normal human Buddhist believer, who doesnt care whether they take 9,999,999 cycles to achieve nirvana. If worse karma, you'll end up being a human who believes in a non-existent God - a theist. Lower would be atheist. biggrin.gif And so on and so forth until the lowest rank.... bacteria and virus?

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 07:24 AM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 5 2020, 11:41 PM)
Since the experts can't answer satisfactorily, let me answer for them. Ahem.....

Karma is carried throughout a "consciousness" existence where the next cycle is determined by that has been done in the previous cycle.

The one that most people understand is that if you have done good in this life, you will rewarded with a better life next cycle. If you did bad, you will be demoted in the next cycle.

What happens to the ants that got the free insecticide then? Well, first of all, they were very bad in the last cycle so they were demoted to become ants. Serves them right. That's karma!!! So how are they going to get the opportunity to ascend when everybody knows ants can't do good or bad deeds. What? Ants going on a homicidal rampage then get bad karma? Or ants did good deeds by helping poor ants so get good karma? They probably don'tt understand anything at that time. Only mindless insects programmed to do their work. Punishment enough I would say.

So if the ants died suddenly, the default is that they get to ascend up the ranks... a bit. Maybe become spider. After dying, the ascend further. Up to a point where their consciousness become self aware, and they know what is good or bad. At that point in the cycle, karma kicks in, and you'll get what you deserve in the next cycle based on what you did in the previous life.

How did I do? Ok? biggrin.gif
*
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 6 2020, 07:30 AM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 08:21 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM)
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.
*
You missed my part 2, as below:
QUOTE
Prt 2 - So a consciousness will ding dong up and down the ranks in each cycle depending on previous cycle karma. Accidental death is not a problem because karma are carried to subsequent cycles. The best top tier rank, I guess, is to be a human Buddhist monk where your chances to enter Nirvana is the highest. If your karma was not that good, you'll become a normal human Buddhist believer, who doesnt care whether they take 9,999,999 cycles to achieve nirvana. If worse karma, you'll end up being a human who believes in a non-existent God - a theist. Lower would be atheist.  And so on and so forth until the lowest rank.... bacteria and virus?


That would easily explained by the fact their karma is carried forward together with their consciousness which is the only permanent thing in this universe.

Think of karma as a scoring system from 0 to 100. You do good, your score goes up. You do bad, your score goes down. So let's take your example of a rapist and a philanthropist in this life cycle. Both had a score of 80 in past lives. When these 2 were cyanided (haha), they go into the next cycle but their score would be different. The rapist's score goes down so he gets demoted and become a cow. (If it was a mass murderer, probably become ant!) The philantropist's score goes up and he becomes a human Buddhist with higher chance to enter Nirvana. Of course, like the part 2 that I mentioned, you'll probably need to have a score of 100, a human Buddhist monk, to even have a remote chance of entering nirvana. However, if you score nothing because you were an ant, your score will gradually go up, as you did nothing bad.

So each life cycle's karma is additive or subtractive and not all or none.

Haha, how? Better? biggrin.gif

Will conclude my main reasons/points for this exercise soon. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 08:26 AM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 6 2020, 08:32 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 08:21 AM)
You missed my part 2, as below:
That would easily explained by the fact their karma is carried forward together with their consciousness which is the only permanent thing in this universe.

Think of karma as a scoring system from 0 to 100. You do good, your score goes up. You do bad, your score goes down. So let's take your example of a rapist and a philanthropist in this life cycle. Both had a score of 80 in past lives. When these 2 were cyanided (haha), they goes into the next cycle but their score would be different. The rapist's score goes down so he gets demoted and become a cow. (If it was a serial killer, probably become any!) The philantropist's score goes up and he becomes a human Buddhist with higher chance to enter Nirvana. Of course, like the part 2 that I mentioned, you'll probably need to have a score of 100, a human Buddhist monk, to even have a remote change of entering nirvana. However, if you score nothing because you were an ant, your score will gradually go up, as you did nothing bad.

So each life cycle's karma is additive or subtractive and not all or none.

Haha, how? Better? biggrin.gif

Will conclude my main reasons/points for this exercise soon. biggrin.gif
*
Then you are saying there is no predictability in karma, meaning the karma from past life can be deferred due to a stronger or more dominating present life karma, encounters or causes.

Do you have a formula for how past life karma is combined with present life karma so that we can formulate the predictability ?

When a claim lacks predictability, that makes it unfalsifiable.

kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 09:41 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 08:32 AM)
Then you are saying there is no predictability in karma, meaning the karma from past life can be deferred due to a stronger or more dominating present life karma, encounters or causes.

Do you have a formula for how past life karma is combined with present life karma so that we can formulate the predictability ?

When a claim lacks predictability, that makes it unfalsifiable.
*
It is predictable based on the scoring. An example of the scores:

0 - bacteria and virus
10 - microscopic organisms
20 - ants, insects
30 - animals
50 - humans, atheists biggrin.gif
60 - humans, theists tongue.gif
70 - humans, normal Buddhists
80-90 - humans, devout Buddhists
90-100 - humans, buddhist monks

Say you are at 70, a normal Buddists. In this cycle, you are a thief. Not really very evil so minus 10 points for you. That means, in your next life, you are punished to become a human theists at 60 points. Haha. Say at that time, you died prematurely without any chance to earn any points. Your scores will be brought forward to next cycle, as karma follows consciousness which is the only permanent thing. However, not only is your score brought forward, it is added a bit because you didnt do anything bad. Instead of 60, you get +2 to become 62. That means that if you unfortunately died prematurely in the next few cycles, you may end up with a score of 70 again - a human Buddhist. This is to explain how lower tier life-forms, who doesnt know the meaning of good or bad, gets a chance to have a better life in the future. An ant will eventually get upgraded to the next tier eventually, and the next and the next, until it's consciousness assumes a form that is aware of good and bad. Once that happens, points will be additionally added or deducted based on karma.

And for those at top tier, the buddhist monk, it doesnt mean they get to enter Nirvana that cycle. It is not so easy. So each cycle, as long as they don't do bad, they will be at 100 and their chances increases each cycle. Who knows how many attempts at max 100 is needed before one can enter. Maybe 10, 20 or 100.

For you and me, we're at around 50 so there's still a lot of points to accumulate before we even have a chance to get the prize. sad.gif we better get cracking earning more points!!!! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 09:47 AM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 6 2020, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 09:41 AM)
It is predictable based on the scoring. An example of the scores:

0 - bacteria and virus
10 - microscopic organisms
20 - ants, insects
30 - animals
50 - humans, atheists biggrin.gif
60 - humans, theists tongue.gif
70 - humans, normal Buddhists
80-90 - humans, devout Buddhists
90-100 - humans, buddhist monks

Say you are at 70, a normal Buddists. In this cycle, you are a thief. Not really very evil so minus 10 points for you. That means, in your next life, you are punished to become a human theists at 60 points. Haha. Say at that time, you died prematurely without any chance to earn any points. Your scores will be brought forward to next cycle, as karma follows consciousness which is the only permanent thing. However, not only is your score brought forward, it is added a bit because you didnt do anything bad. Instead of 60, you get +2 to become 62. That means that if you unfortunately died prematurely in the next few cycles, you may end up with a score of 70 again - a human Buddhist. This is to explain how lower tier life-forms, who doesnt know the meaning of good or bad, gets a chance to have a better life in the future. An ant will eventually get upgraded to the next tier eventually, and the next and the next, until it's consciousness assumes a form that is aware of good and bad. Once that happens, points will be additionally added or deducted based on karma.

And for those at top tier, the buddhist monk, it doesnt mean they get to enter Nirvana that cycle. It is not so easy. So each cycle, as long as they don't do bad, they will be at 100 and their chances increases each cycle. Who knows how many attempts at max 100 is needed before one can enter. Maybe 10, 20 or 100.

For you and me, we're at around 50 so there's still a lot of points to accumulate before we even have a chance to get the prize. sad.gif we better get cracking earning more points!!!! biggrin.gif
*
How can it have predictability when I already said, in my previous post, if you have a random sample of living things with different karma scores, but all subjected to hydrogen cyanide gas in this present life, all ended up in the same fate of death ?

The thought experiment clear showed that their fate is independent of their past life karma scores.
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 06:32 AM)
Those are vague. You have not defined right cause, right conditions and the rest. It is vague words piling on vague words.
Did you not realize that the ants were not in their first life, they would have existed in this universe for many generations, and carried with them the karma of their past lives ?

If I perform a new experiment to terminate their lives and that is successful and deterministic, and that breaks the predetermined action of karmic chain of the respective ants, that means either karma is false or it lacks guaranteed predictability.
*
what if; the ants that were terminated were already set to be reborn into a better life? you were merely the tool to facilitate their next cycle? how would u be able to predict if you have no information on the ants that died on their karma status? Food for thought.
TSpuchongite
post Apr 6 2020, 10:02 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 09:57 AM)
what if; the ants that were terminated were already set to be reborn into a better life? you were merely the tool to facilitate their next cycle? how would u be able to predict if you have no information on the ants that died on their karma status? Food for thought.
*
Please only focus on the predictability in present life, that's the only measurable prediction. The next life is not measurable.

In other words, what is the prediction which karma says about our present life, based on our past life karma and present life karma.
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 09:56 AM)
How can it have predictability when I already said, in my previous post, if you have a random sample of living things with different karma scores, but all subjected to hydrogen cyanide gas in this present life, all ended up in the same fate of death ?

The thought experiment clear showed that their fate is independent of their past life karma scores.
*
Ya ma. Already explained that their current cycle is not necessarily determined by past deeds. Instead, what they became was determined by pass deeds. Say a mass murderer human theist who became an ant because of karma. He already got his karma punishment so whatever happens after that is anybody's guess, whether cyanided or not.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:02 AM)
Please only focus on the predictability in present life, that's the only measurable prediction. The next life is not measurable.

In other words, what is the prediction which karma says about our present life, based on our past life karma and present life karma.
*
then the exercise will be akin to weighing something without a measurement system. (i.e metric). without a scale, how do you measure and predict?
TSpuchongite
post Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 10:06 AM)
Ya ma. Already explained that their current cycle is not necessarily determined by past deeds. Instead, what they became was determined by pass deeds. Say a mass murderer human theist who became an ant because of karma. He already got his karma punishment so whatever happens after that is anybody's guess, whether cyanided or not.
*
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM)
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
*
thats a really big if, lol. i wouldnt want to make that assumption as i do not know how karma works. sure, we see glimpses of it but in order to know if its real, we need to first know how its supposed to work first before assuming any conclusions from your experiment.
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:21 AM)
Read post #56, focus on predictability manifested in present life. The thought experiment is for measuring present life predictability.

If the karma accumulated by someone has no predictability on his present life, then it has no predictability on future lives.
*
Ya, that's what I'm saying.

On death, your karma points will determine what you become in your next cycle, and not what will happen in the next cycle. A mass murderer, on dying, gets his punishment by being an ant in the next cycle. He doesnt get to become human. That's his karma punishment. So as an ant in next cycle, whatever happens when he is an ant has nothing to do with the fact that he was a previous mass murderer. He already got his punishment by being an ant and in the new life, the ant is still being given the chance, like all life-forms, to ascend further and accumulate more points.

So whether you cyanide the ant or not, it doesnt matter. The outcome of this current ant life is not determine by previous life deeds. Meaning to say that at the time of death, the predictability is what the consciousness become in the next cycle, not the outcome of the next cycle.

Edit : to put it in another way, once you get punished or rewarded (to become whatever your score is), karma resets and all is forgotten. You start afresh with the points you have. You are not punished for endless cycles because of one bad life cycle. Every consciousness is given a new chance in every cycle.

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 6 2020, 10:40 AM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 6 2020, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(kmarc @ Apr 6 2020, 10:35 AM)
Ya, that's what I'm saying.

On death, your karma points will determine what you become in your next cycle, and not what will happen in the next cycle. A mass murderer, on dying, gets his punishment by being an ant in the next cycle. He doesnt get to become human. That's his karma punishment. So as an ant in next cycle, whatever happens when he is an ant has nothing to do with the fact that he was a previous mass murderer. He already got his punishment by being an ant and in the new life, the ant is still being given the chance, like all life-forms, to ascend further and accumulate more points.

So whether you cyanide the ant or not, it doesnt matter. The outcome of this current ant life is not determine by previous life deeds. Meaning to say that at the time of death, the predictability is what the consciousness become in the next cycle, not the outcome of the next cycle.

Edit : to put it in another way, once you get punished or rewarded (to become whatever your score is), karma resets and all is forgotten. You start afresh with the points you have. You are not punished for endless cycles because of one bad life cycle. Every consciousness is given a new chance in every cycle.
*
Then you are saying karma does not bother or predicts about whether you suffer or not in your entire life. It only covers what life form you will be. You know we can change the thought experiment to deliver suffering to group A.

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post Apr 6 2020, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 10:31 AM)
thats a really big if, lol. i wouldnt want to make that assumption as i do not know how karma works. sure, we see glimpses of it but in order to know if its real, we need to first know how its supposed to work first before assuming any conclusions from your experiment.
*
Is not a big 'if' !

You think about the thought experiment, it has been demonstrated that past life karma is deferred or ignored by present life acts.
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 11:04 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 10:47 AM)
Then you are saying karma does not bother or predicts about whether you suffer or not in your entire life. It only covers what life form you will be. You know we can change the thought experiment to deliver suffering to group A.
*
Ya, karma determines what the consciousness becomes in the next life. That's all. It doesn't hold a grudge after that. biggrin.gif Every consciousness starts anew after their reward or punishment, every cycle provides a new chance.

Anyway, what I did was just to show that every believer/preacher/etc. can always come up with a convincing explanation for everything. If they can't answer, it is as simple as saying "it"s meant to be like that" or "it is from God".

Thx for the brain workout! biggrin.gif
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 11:10 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:02 AM)
Is not a big 'if' !

You think about the thought experiment, it has been demonstrated that past life karma is deferred or ignored by present life acts.
*
no it is not demonstrated by the thought experiment. you just killed the ants. Thats just one action. The underlying causes on WHY u did the action was totally unexplained.

what if:
1. Karma was the one guiding you to choose the 50 ants to kill, therefore doing its job
2. Control group ants might die due to karma anyways. Just not at the exact time you did the experiment
3. Being born an ant is punishment enough and regardless how they died they would have earned some "positive" karma


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post Apr 6 2020, 11:16 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Apr 6 2020, 11:10 AM)
no it is not demonstrated by the thought experiment. you just killed the ants. Thats just one action. The underlying causes on WHY u did the action was totally unexplained.

what if:
1. Karma was the one guiding you to choose the 50 ants to kill, therefore doing its job
2. Control group ants might die due to karma anyways. Just not at the exact time you did the experiment
3. Being born an ant is punishment enough and regardless how they died they would have earned some "positive" karma
*
Then you really need to change the thought experiment to use different samples as I mentioned to kmarc.

Read post #50.

Instead of killing, maybe change it to deliver suffering or incentive to group A.

The idea is to do a deterministic action to disprove the impact of past life karma.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 6 2020, 11:17 AM
kmarc
post Apr 6 2020, 11:24 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 11:16 AM)
Then you really need to change the thought experiment to use different samples as I mentioned to kmarc.

Read post #50.

Instead of killing, maybe change it to deliver suffering or incentive to group A.

The idea is to do a deterministic action to disprove the impact of past life karma.
*
I think we have to get the premise straight. Basically, this is what we're saying:

Premise A - past life karma has an impact on current life
Premise B - past life karma has no impact on current life. Only impact what the consciousness becomes

So I guess you're going with premise A because for premise B, killing, suffering or rewarding group A in current life has no connection with past life karma.
mikehuan
post Apr 6 2020, 11:40 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 6 2020, 07:28 AM)
This gist of the thought experiment is that we are supposed to gather a random sample representing living things with very different past lives.

So selecting only ants, is considered non-random sampling.

Since this is only a thought experiment, let's re-construct the samples. We collect the samples of living things which includes ants, cockroach, monkey, tiger, human, prisoners, church pastors, monks, rapist, rich man, poor man, charity donors, serial killers.

And then there is a computer program to randomly split them into group A and group B.

Group A will be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

Group B will not be given hydrogen cyanide gas.

What will be the expected result ?

Will their past life background/karma have any impact to their destiny ?

There are many variations to the sample possible. But repeated experiments will show that the outcome is independent of their past lives. Present life karma/encounters/causes completely determine their destiny.
*
okay, what if:
karma has already predetermined the random generator to choose what karma wants to choose. then the experiment becomes a tool for karma to do its work. Because you wholly believe the random is random because it was not generated by you, but a computer program. But computers does not do random, it would still follow an algorithm and might seem random but given a big enough sample, there would still be patterns. You are also thinking that the experiment is the only determining factor. what if after the experiment one of the creatures/humans from the surviving group die? Is that karma or not?



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