Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages < 1 2 3 4 >Bottom

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

views
     
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 05:51 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 9 2020, 05:48 PM)
cause and effect happens to everything, be it science, morality or hitting a jackpot.
*
If you definition is cause and effect happens to everything, and that is the only definition of karma, then yes, I agree karma definitely exist, and is useful.
Cause you learn through cause and effect.

You touch fire (the cause), you feel the burnt (the effect).

You steal (cause), it will definitely have an effect. Someone has less money because of that. Perhaps the person's mother died because that's the money to buy her medicine. So many potential effect.
You may get caught etc. All this are effects.

But to attribute it to a force, or to say that these actions will bring forward to your next life, that's what I cannot agree. Or to say that what you do now will definitely come back and haunt you etc.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 11 2020, 05:00 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 9 2020, 06:16 PM)
karma sometimes not only from the higher power. It could be from the penal code. The penal code will still punish you regardless of what is your intention of stealing. If you think you can avoid being caught from the authority, then try it first and you will know it.
How it works is not important because we also do not know where is higher power living now. If you need to prove everything then perhaps I will ask you to prove are you a human or robot?

Yup, you dunno the purpose of that medicine. But can you conclude that medicine will not cure anything on human?
Your karma will be shown after you have stole something. Probably caught by police or the victim.
You keep repeating the same thing. If now you throw an axe on me, there is a possibility that I can avoid the assault because I am too lucky on that time. Told many time other variables or conditions might affect the outcome. I told you the 5 things previously. That's why popular Feng sui masters are so rich.
*
1. I'm not talking about penal code etc. I'm saying, if I escape the lawful reciprocation, then, what next? Karma will do what?
2. Nope, you cannot conclude. But as long as NO ONE knows what the medicine is for, then, until the time comes where someone find out, the medicine remains what I said - useless.
3. I'm not talking bout lawful reciprocation. I'm asking about karma, from the religious perspective. If you say about being caught by police or anything, that's because that's what the law is, not what karma is.
So, basically, let's assume I'm smart enough to avoid the law, means no karma for me? Are you saying that?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 11 2020, 05:02 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 9 2020, 05:54 PM)
looks like i really getting on your nerve  cool2.gif
cheers mate, we are having a discussion. an interesting one indeed.
if i'm wrong, or you need further explanation, you can ask or pointed out nicely and we can continue with a GENTLEMANtroll behavior. if not, let's end here.
*
Nope, I need to emphasise. Else, like all religious troll, they just answer A with B. Just like what you exactly doing now..
Instead of answering, you twist and use a strawman instead.
If you're incapable of answering, then you can end the discussion here.
Typical, act smart, but tin kosong, then tell ppl karma exist, karma this, karma that.. Ask more details, not a single proper answer. shakehead.gif
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 11 2020, 05:04 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 9 2020, 10:48 PM)
He purposely asked stupid irrelevant questions to frustrate his debate opponent. Already spoonfed him everything in my post #384.

If he is genuine, he should be arguing it out from there on, and not asking totally irrelevant questions. Obviously he is not genuine. His only objective is frustrate you and then make fun of it or report it to forum admin.
*
And when I point it out, he used a strawman argument.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 11 2020, 05:09 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 10 2020, 12:31 PM)
as i say earlier, every action there is a reaction, so basically every karma(action) come in 2 type of energy, individual karma n common karma ....
let say A steal 5k from B, in the future A will lose 5k to B for whatever reason in monetarily form, that is common karma ....
bcos of the stealing act, A planted a bad seed in his consciousness, this is individual karma ....
so what will A reap ? i cant answer that cos our consciousness n mind always changes ...
A may repent, A may steal more , A may bla bla bla .... endless possibility ...
in another word, karma is not as simple as 1 to 1 exchange, there may be 3 type of energy n cause a chain reaction ...
eg, u play football in the house, u kick the ball to the wall, the ball bounce n hit the window n so on ....  tongue.gif
*
You may say there's endless possibility.
I agree.
But, how karma works?
You can give an example.
Just saying endless possibility = not answering = you have no idea how karma works, even for one specific situation.
So, karma is not on one specific action now? No good karma bad karma actions? Everything "DEPENDS"?

You see, what I'm asking is what is the EXPECTED RESULT of karma. If you can't answer, that means you have no idea.
And if you have no idea how karma works, what's the point of talking bout karma.

For all you know, stealing could be good karma. Stealing could mean next life I can become buddha.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 11 2020, 05:16 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 11 2020, 02:27 PM)
Firstly, that's where you don't know about Buddhism. Buddhism specifically says yes, intention is important in working out the punishment or reward in your subsequent life.

This has been given by some Buddhists here before.

Secondly, karma is said to be "automatic" or "natural", so Buddha is not there to make any judgement about your intention.
*
Actually, the more people post, the more I realise, your title is very very true.
Karma is untrue, or useless.

If karma is untrue, no further discussion needed.

But now, let's assume karma is true, none of the forumer here, no matter how high and mighty they act, understands how it works.
They can't even answer a simple question of "If I steal, what is my karma". They can only answer depends on situation, if you caught, if you etc etc..
Basically, their reply is the typical "cause & effect" of everyday's life - i.e. human law, not some higher power or natural law that will "correct" the wrong you did.
They have not demonstrated what is the "punishment" from karma.



GentlemanTroll
post Apr 11 2020, 05:18 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 11 2020, 03:03 PM)
Based on my experience, it could be based on destiny and also karma and also unexpected circumstances. Your life will be affected by all these. It's all different. Just using karma to explain everything will not be accurate.

You could become a successful actor, your karma of getting an injury, and unexpectedly you have chosen to kill yourself. Karma will not 100% dictate over your life. But karma I agree is auto and is real ya.
*
You attribute it to karma, but it could be anything else.
It sounds like just a probability though.

I can agree to a certain extend, you reap what you sow. In terms of probability.
The more good you do, the more likely that one day, your kindness will be repaid.
The more you steal, the more likely you are to be caught.

Those are just statistic and numbers, if there is no "proper rule" of how karma works.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 09:09 AM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 11 2020, 05:49 PM)
If you study hard work very very hard, what will be your exact achievement? If you cannot give out an exact answer, then how can you criticize on karma?

Study very2 hard and work very2 hard does not mean you will get something you desire also. You see Anwar fighting for his whole life to get a taste of being a PM for 1 day also cannot.

But Moo can become pm in the blink of an eye.
*
If you study very hard, your EXPECTED RESULT is get a reasonably good score in your exams.
If you work very hard, your EXPECTED RESULT is that you will be better at what you're working.
If you steal, your EXPECTED RESULT is you obtaining something that isn't yours.
You have EXPECTED RESULTS when you perform an action.
Simple as that.

What about Karma?

Now, you want to talk about being PM, there is only 1 PM in the whole of Malaysia at any given time. The probability is 1 in 30 million.
But let's go further. There are not that many people who wants to be politician. So, maybe say, about 20k people wants to be a politician.
Your chance is still only 1 in 20k.
So, no matter how hard you work, your expected results is you cannot be PM, unless you're really really lucky, coupled with being very capable.
For Anwar, he didn't hit the "luck" factor. And in terms of capability, I'm not even sure I can say he's a good politician.

So, when you talk about this:
If you buy lottery very hard (every time got lottery you buy), your EXPECTED RESULT is you will still not get a lottery.

You see, there is something called "EXPECTED RESULTS". That's what I'm asking. But no, you're not able to give even an expected results
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 09:13 AM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 11 2020, 05:42 PM)
OK. stay safe mate.
*
As usual, unable to answer, resort to other tactics.
If you want to be insincere, better not try replying from the start.

Anyway, you stay safe too.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 09:18 AM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(plain_white @ Apr 13 2020, 08:13 AM)
I agree with your observations here. Science is an integral part in our understanding of the nature. It allows us to explain nature based on our understanding capacity. Karma could be just a natural phenomena and not able to explain it doesn't mean it does not exist. For example,
people might not able to explain why stuff fall to ground before the understanding of gravity.

Similarly,  attributed everything to karma without understanding is akin to blind believer. Actions in the hope of avoiding bad consequences or expecting good rewards is not the aim of buddhist.

We should not try to hard to give an explanation to everything nor too fixated to our belief.
*
I agree with you - there is a possibility that karma exist, just that we cannot prove it yet.

But one thing is, as I mentioned in my other posts, if you don't understand karma at all, then whether it exist or not, it's useless on each individual.
You can only accept things at it is, it is totally out of your control, esepcially when the observed results isn't consistent. (or rather, you cannot demonstrate a consistent result, yet)

For instance, gravity, even if you don't understand, you know the result is consistent. Stuff fall to ground.

An easier example is what I've said. If you have a medicine that you have no idea what is it for, the medicine is simply useless. You cannot do anything with it, until you discovered its uses.


GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 09:34 AM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 11 2020, 05:38 PM)
Already told you karma can come from penal code or natural karma

Conclude is you not me. I only concluded that you cannot claim anything without any concrete evidence. You need to prove the medicine really useless. If you cannot detect the use of the medicine does not mean the medicine has no usage at all.

I don't talk only from a religious perspective. I am talking from logics and my own experiences. If the penal code won't give you karma, the natural will do its work as well. Just a matter of time ya.

user posted image
Karma is a very complicated kind of thing.

They got handcuffed in a chain and dragged to court. Sometimes even if you are not proven wrong yet, but you already received some kind of karma. Probably this karma for your previous bad deeds?. Going out to jog definitely not something bad in the eyes of buddha right?

Those who chained them probably will get karma some other days? Who knows?
*
1. Sorry, maybe I should've been clearer. The reason people wants to believe in Karma is hoping that people who don't get what they deserved, will be in some ways, punished by the natural force. So, what I am more interested is people who escape direct consequences (i.e. law). And it's extremely hard to consider law as Karma, given law is created by humans, with an expected results to punish people who are caught doing the unlawful act.

2. On the medicine, I say, the medicine is useless until and unless you found a use for it. You disagree?
What you can do for such medicine is simply TRY to find a use for it, and hope you found a use for it. But as long as you haven't found a use for it, it's useless.

I told you I'm not saying karma is useless or don't exist (at least, that's not what I'm arguing for now), I'm arguing that if you don't understand how karma works, then it's useless.
So, as long as no one knows how karma works, then it's useless as we cannot do anything with it. The day you found how karma works is the day you can start applying, then it's no longer useless.

3. They got handcuffed and dragged to a court, in accordance with the law. If there is no such law, there is no such results. Humans set it. This is the typical cause and effect, not a natural "FORCE".
So, if you're saying karma is just cause and effect, then yes, it definitely exist, and you definitely can apply it.

How so?
I use mathematical equation to show you how you can apply it.

Assume you steal.
Depending on your ability to steal, your probability of being caught goes up or goes down.
So, assume your probability of being caught is 20%.

That means, each time you cause (i.e. steal), you have 20% probability of effect (i.e. caught and likely punished by law).
So, you are expected to be caught once every 5 times.

See, you can directly apply, if you understand the cause and effect.

Another example, if you put water in the freezer (cause), your effect is ice.

Let's go to more complicated stuff. When there are a lot of internal complication to achieve the results.
A lot of times, humans can't link the cause and effect.
For example, the 2008 financial crisis. Before the effect is apparent, no one knows what is the cause.
Sometimes, only after we observe an incident, we can only then find out what is the cause. That's because we're human, we are limited. We don't know everything.

However, in this case, you attribute the driving force (in a way) to karma. (e.g. you claimed that your classmate mother died because he bullies people. You are attributing 2 very separate event that don't have cause and effect as cause and effect. And the driving force behind this is karma, according to you.

So, if you attribute this, that means you have to answer more qeustions. How it works, when will it work, what sort of punishment for what sort of cause etc etc. How is the punishment going to be fair? A natural law is typically neutral and unbiased. If karma is unfair, then there's nothing you can do, cause all your good deeds may be ignored, all your bad deeds may be punished, which is no different then probability.
If karma is so unconcrete, then we can just ignore it and based on the typical cause and effect.
(I.e. you don't steal because you don't want to get caught. You don't bully because you don't want to be punished by teacher etc etc.)

Basically, you can either able to explain how karma works properly, or karma is not useful, until and unless someone finds out how it works properly.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 12:00 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(plain_white @ Apr 13 2020, 10:45 AM)
It's not totally useless. Some people are driven to do good because of expectation for good rewards in future. Same premise use for all religions.
*
Sorry if I wasn't clear. It's still useless, as of now, as we still don't understand it.

What is not useless is how humans interpret karma, and use it as a tool for morality.
As you say, same premise for all religion.
Whether god exist or not, it can be used as a tool to drive morality.

So, I agree that this aspect has its uses. Just like moral studies etc etc. But that's not truly due to karma. It is due to how people preach karma.

Going back to my medicine analogy. The medicine can still have placebo effect even if that's not the true purpose.


GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 01:09 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 13 2020, 12:49 PM)
karma = cause + effect + condition ... is it so hard to understand ?  doh.gif
common karma is fix, u steal 5k from A, A will get back his 5K for whatever reason from u back in the future ....
individual karma is not fix, just like u eat dim sum, u order lo mai kai, char siew pau, u never know how much is the bill if u keep on ordering ....
EXPECTED RESULT = pay your bill after u finish eating  bruce.gif  bruce.gif  bruce.gif

btw for your information karma n reincarnation is 2 different thing, pls dont confused  whistling.gif
*
You even understand what you saying?
Are you saying, if you steal 5k from A, A is expected to get back 5k from me in the future?
Are you saying that's the expected results of karma?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 01:44 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 13 2020, 01:17 PM)
u reap what u sow but not only monetary payback maybe including 'emotion' payback too ....depend on the chain reaction too ...
*
puchongnite Ask him more, he is not able to answer already.. lol..
Such a simple question, he act as though the answer is so simple, ask again, he say other stuff..

Conclusion: He has no !@#$ing idea.

Btw, there is 2 karma we're talking about here.
There is no confusion on reincarnation (unless your amazing brain is so easily confused).

1st. Karma within the lifetime
2nd. Karma that passed on to the next life.

This post has been edited by GentlemanTroll: Apr 13 2020, 01:52 PM
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 01:56 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 13 2020, 01:54 PM)
next time want to ask just tag me lah....
he always obsesses about karma with morality but i also dont know where he got the idea from  doh.gif
so i dont want to kacau his wet dream lah ....

kan sudah cakap, karma is not only about material thing, is also about emotion n how u perceive thing ...
5k is just a number, it can be 10 cent or 1 million for some.... rolleyes.gif
*
You said expected result.
Then I ask more, you changed your answer again.
Karma is as inconsistent as you, apparently.
Or are you not afraid your dishonesty will bring karma?
Seems like you yourself don't believe in karma, when you engage in such dishonest behavior.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 02:23 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 13 2020, 02:06 PM)
firstly honest or dishonest also got karma one ....
when did i change the answer ? pls show me ....
we talk about karma but karma is about thought, speech n action, u can google yourself ...
*
First, you said:
common karma is fix, u steal 5k from A, A will get back his 5K for whatever reason from u back in the future ....
(also, plus an entirely unrelated topic about ordering dim sum.. LOL!)

Then you said:
u reap what u sow but not only monetary payback maybe including 'emotion' payback too ....depend on the chain reaction too ...

So, what is the expected results? You still haven't answer that.
Suddenly got emotion payback? What chain reaction?
You don't understand just say don't understand la, don't have to give so many excuses.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 13 2020, 03:14 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 13 2020, 02:36 PM)
ya lah, just like u throw a basketball in the air, of course come down one must be basketball la, cannot be football .....
common karma is fix, steal 5k,u will lose 5k for whatever reason in the future ...
so, why there is emotion n chain reaction too ? cos u steal from a emotional sentient being ....
human got emotion one ma ... so u also must pay this too ...
and if the 5k he actually want to use it for medical purposes for his son ....
but u steal the 5k and his son die bcos of the 5k then your stealing act is not so simple as u think ...
all those chain reaction karma will masuk your personal account too ....  brows.gif
deswai i say u never know how much u going to pay until the karma stop ..... tongue.gif
*
Dumb diversion. I'm merely asking expected result.
So, say it.

Confirm this:

If I steal 5k from a person, the person is expected to gain 5k back from me as well.

That's how you interpret karma. Right?

GentlemanTroll
post Apr 14 2020, 08:26 AM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 13 2020, 03:32 PM)
yes for common karma
*
What is your definition of "common karma"?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 15 2020, 11:34 AM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(danokchonger @ Apr 15 2020, 11:11 AM)
there is no right way of thinking except the way that B can reconciliate with him/herself to make sense of the situation. in cognitive behaviour therapy, we will not focus on putting scores on events itself (ie judgement value) but how you actually respond to the event, within the context of the individual psyche.
and it is important not to impose your own set of beliefs or lack of, onto B.
*
I agree with what you state.
However, how you respond to the event, could be highly dependent on how you perceive the event as well.

For A, he could potentially think that, he did bad karma, so he just need to do more good now.
Whereas for B, he might do preventive measure such as social distancing to avoid more family members catching on disease etc etc.

Though, this is a bit extreme as most people who believe in karma, is also living a realistic life.
But when you go to the extreme end of belief, that's where problem begun.

People saying things like they should fear God more than COVID19, it's all karma and nothing can be done about it, etc etc..
Those are the one that could just destroy what other people work for.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 16 2020, 05:32 PM

Enthusiast
*****
Junior Member
882 posts

Joined: May 2019
QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 16 2020, 03:12 PM)
Is there any difference between believing in reality versus believing in self-delusion ?

Bishop who said "God is larger than" Covid-19 has died from the disease

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/14/us/bisho...dies/index.html
*
Or things like:

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/...kistan-mosques/

I think someone say something that make sense.
Believe all you want. But don't use religion to tackle real life issues.

4 Pages < 1 2 3 4 >Top
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0168sec    0.23    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 29th September 2022 - 06:52 PM