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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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mikehuan
post Apr 30 2020, 10:24 AM

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QUOTE(yongsua @ Apr 29 2020, 05:28 PM)
To will4848

I am not supposed to post in this thread anymore but bro no need to waste your brain cells and saliva with all these people, just don't give a damn to whatever people want to believe. It's all matter of choice. They like to fantasize themselves with science or whatsoever any other beliefs then let them be. You are just wasting your time with all these endless debates. We are not helping them to clear doubts now but we are harming them with more doubts and blasphemies, just stop it bro, you have done your parts. If they are truly interested and they want to enlighten themselves more, they should read mantra or sutra themselves. They are not here to learn Buddhism, they are here to challenge Buddhism. The more you entertain these people, the more aroused they are. Quit yourself and they can only argue with themselves. wink.gif  wink.gif  wink.gif
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if its a challenge to your religion then its a hypothetical one. close your browser, and go on with your life. no one is stopping you from posting but yourself.

how is it that you can try and convince us your religion is better than science and yet you can refuse see the arguments from the scientific POV? heads you win, tails we lose?

We are here to learn buddhism, but first you must make sense for us to believe it. We will try to do the same to you in regards to science. If its too much for you to handle please look away

and also, you can claim to be buddhist here and yet write such things? are you thinking about your religion when you're writing this? SHAME.
mikehuan
post Apr 30 2020, 10:30 AM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 30 2020, 10:25 AM)
No.4 does not look like a question, but a statement and suggestion, no?
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i agree.

though if i were to answer it, and im not a Buddhist, is that the resolve of being a monk doesnt come easy. its a calling i would think


mikehuan
post Apr 30 2020, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 30 2020, 10:41 AM)
it's not that friend. he has his points, the tread tittle is accusative and clearly the person who posted it tried to provoke a response from the Buddhists.

That being said, talking about the Dhamma has its time and place, and i don't see this tread as a appropriate place to discuss about it, more so to an audience that does not respect the Dhamma.

so chill, you are all entitled to your own beliefs, and if you see science as a solid way to live your life, then be it.
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Didnt see any words concerning buddhists on the title nor did i see anything accusative

and ditto on the beliefs. you do you, friend.
mikehuan
post May 4 2020, 11:16 AM

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something i have observed is that people tend to be very specific on how a good deed would be rewarded with a specific good karma

if you are a good person, with good karmic(?) values, does not mean that you wouldn't be infected with CoVid19. Bad things still do happen to good people, thats just life. Everyone dies, whether they are bad, evil, good, etc.

even if you for example killed a person and got away with it, does not mean you would be punished right afterwards. It could be any bad event that happens over the course of your life.

Until you get a clear definition on what defines as a karma act, then everything else is just plain assumptions.

Logically however, if you only did good things, ie follow the law and being kind, chances are you wouldn't experience a lot of bad things because there wouldn't be a lot of people who would want to cause harm to you regardless on what you believe in.

its like a herd mentality. if enough people who are kind to one another then the cases of 'bad karma' would be substantially lower across the board.


mikehuan
post May 4 2020, 01:10 PM

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QUOTE
So when people are educated that way, they behave that way.
So if a baby is ill and the parent do not tend to the baby's health, thinking that that karma is running its course, then should the baby suffers fatality, are you saying the parents are not negligent ?

If a person falls sick and was treated with the right medication, the medication was useless because karmic value is ultimate ?

The questions are rhetorical.

The point is people using karma to diminish the reputation of scientist who discovered penicilin and other causes of illness and medication / treatment, is this what we want next generation to think? ...then you should start a thread calling for more religious universities to be build. More education of ulama, priest and monks thorough out the world.
Alexander Fleming got the Nobel for penicillin, so nope, dont think so.
Whether u want to believe in karma or not has not footing whatsoever in the science community


QUOTE
As oppose to a community that understands cause and consequences, cultured with right values, able to think critically.

The murderer may get away in both instances.
But the latter instance, people may be better equip to enrich their lives.
This thread had a definition, but for our discourse, I adhere to your statement that there is no clear definition.

If a child in her room is afraid of dark, should the parent encourage her to be fearful ? At nothing dangerous in the dark room?

Should parents and teachers encourage kids to believe in something that they cannot define, like karma?
If it cannot define than it can be misrepresented. Should kids be encouraged to live a lie / fake?
Biased thinking. Ignored.

QUOTE
I do not like hypocrisy. That's why I am saying, if one cannot define a subject, then they should be cautious of it. Don't believe in lies.
"Logically" ... biggrin.gif LOL

I will quash logic by quoting reality.

Religions and karma has been around for centuries. Yet humanity has gone into numerous wars and crimes.

Reality is, if you are good person, there are bullies and bad people who will harm others, including good people.
Just as carnivores will prey on herbivores and other smaller carnivores.
So how should people survive such a reality in the world?
When capitalists are taking advantage of others to maximise their profit.

Oh look, there is karma. They will suffer the consequences /sarcasm

Is this the best model of knowledge?
That you want your children to inherit?

What if you can transcend this model and the lies (of karma)?

So I end with the early comments I made in this thread.

Can you open your mind ?

U wanna talk wars then? Covid deaths in USA alone has killed more americans than several vietnam wars put together.
I've put that only as an example to make my point. You gonna extrapolate that into facts then please do it elsewhere where its relevant.

Reality is, a good person can also stand up to bullying. As i said, bad things will happen to people, good or bad. Karma is not the reason why it happens.

And if you dont already know, im neither a buddhist nor agree with the concept of karma.

My mind is where its supposed to be. Can you be more polite?


mikehuan
post May 5 2020, 02:26 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ May 5 2020, 10:15 AM)
Glad that you got my argument. But I disagree with the conclusion you made in the last paragraph.

If we use the standard for a scientific law, to answer your question in the first paragraph, yes it is the fault of the prediction statement (if any) of the law of karma.

Karma law lacks the essential attributes of a rigorous law.

Is it mentioned anywhere in the law of karma that it cannot be applied to this case of covid-19 as the fruits that one reaps from one's past deeds ? Isn't it karma is understood and claimed to be a natural law ? People who believe in karma do this all the time. They assign bad outcome of their life to bad past deeds. In terms of application, there is nothing in the law of karma which states this is a wrong application. I dare say many Buddhists do not see this as a wrong application.

Under what circumstances that karma is usable as explanation of the fruits/effect one reaps ? Under what circumstances can one know he is considered causing a new chainĀ  ?

Can an amoral non-conscious agent, such covid-19 virus cause a new chain when it is void of moral intention ? When an amoral non-conscious agent is causing a new chain and delivering a bad/sad effect/suffering ( such as people being killed), what is the karma onto the sorrow causing amoral agent itself ? How do you balance your karma cause effect equation when the cause is amoral and the result is sad ?

Karma is a moral law, I dare say that believers of karma will not accept an amoral non-conscious agent void of intention and emotion can start a new chain. At most, a moral neutral agent could only produce a moral neutral effect.

In the end, the law of karma is not a rigorous law. It is just some bunch of wishy washy words put together.
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Why not you make a case scenario from the bolded above and we can discuss from there? Because you seem to disagree when told your view of karma is different from everyone else. So lets all get onto the same page.

as for the covid example

it does not matter if you believe that karma was the cause because it is not controllable. until we understand the mechanics (and before that the definition) of karma whether u wanna blame it on karma wont matter because you dont know. its just a way to perceive the situation

ie. if someone told you that:

i got infected because someone sneezed on me

i got infected because of karma

- that person is still infected regardless of how it was caused. whether karma was involved it does not matter. so why worry about it? you cannot take legal, or any action on "karma" but you can report the person who sneezed.

if everyone believed in karma and generally try not to harm people = would do their best to not spread it to anyone else = less infections.

so if you dont believe in karma you dont have to negate people who do, because its not doing anyone any good if you did.

This post has been edited by mikehuan: May 5 2020, 02:35 PM
mikehuan
post May 6 2020, 12:00 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ May 6 2020, 09:33 AM)
I was talking to a Christian who believes that the covid-19 is created by God to punish mankind. What I want to know is, after believing in that, can he still believe that covid-19 is due to virus and transmitted via amoral causes ? Again, the answer is, most people seems to be able to do that. They can partition the brain in a way to allow that. But you can't deny, they are people who cannot do that. That's why some believers believe that they cannot be infected with covid-19.

Logically, in a limited way, the people who already believed in covid-19 being God intended massacre and can no more believe in the efficacy of amoral virus are more logical and coherent. Why ? Because if you already think God wants to punish whoever, how could the whoever escape that ?

The same thing is applicable to karma believers.

Bottomline whatever one believes affect the reality in life, because we are not living alone. Don't say no difference. It matters. If one already believes karma is the cause of one's infection, it is actually more logical that he cannot believe that he is able to spread to others via close contact.

Most people who believe in two causes, they are incoherent. But the incoherency gives them some real world sanity.
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the reality is the christian friend is not attending any church events atm. However you hate admitting to it, but there is a possibility that he is right, it -may- have been caused by god. Not in the literal sense, as if god created the virus from thin air. Just arranging the conditions to be met in order to have a full blown pandemic is good enough.

the way i look at it, karma believers will not attempt to infect others, as they would believe that it would cause bad karma

the way most of you are looking at it as if that because they believe in karma what actions they take now to avoid getting infected is useless because karma is not in their control.

thats why its so subjective and hard to experiment on, because you cannot predict how one person will act. they wont act just based their believes alone.

i think a better way to attack this is why are people so skeptical towards science? Refer to my signature for proof.

so, its just a matter of perspective. reality or otherwise

mikehuan
post May 19 2020, 12:21 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ May 17 2020, 04:05 PM)
reality hurt
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its weird that you would debate scientific laws when you dont know how it works; and also when you dont believe them.

reality hurts, but irony is funny.
mikehuan
post Jun 25 2020, 02:30 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jun 25 2020, 02:21 PM)
so what so difficult to explain can see, hear n touch in big bang n evolution theory ? u cant explain mean im dont understand science ?  doh.gif
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Whether he can explain or not has no correlation about you understanding

It's you trying to explain that makes the rest of us think that you dont understand
mikehuan
post Jul 6 2020, 02:06 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 01:47 PM)
not only newton law got limitation, actually all science law also got their 'term n condition' that there must be no 3rd force n certain force must be constant ....
a very simple eg, A got 1 apple, B got 1 apple so total should be 2 apple if C steal 1 of the apple n eat it......
so the answer wont be 2 apple cos there is a 3rd force intervene ....
so let me ask u, which science formula/equation doesnt have their 'term n condition' ?????

when u say a religious guy is a blind faith believer but actually those people believe in science also can be a blind faith believer too ...
a religion blind faith believer will pray to god when they are sick n hope for miracle ....
a science blind faith believer will pray to the medicine instead or taking the medicine to cure the sickness ....
any different between the two ? it is just a different pov ..... so everything is in your mind n how u perceived it  bruce.gif
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are you seriously asking if praying and taking medicine is the same thing?

did you pray a reply on a public online forum instead of typing it out?

in case that flew over your head, the only reason why you could actually argue this one this platform is because of science and technology. you're welcome.
mikehuan
post Jul 6 2020, 02:08 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 01:54 PM)
this is wrong perception, karma not only for living thing, even tree or object too ...
eg u throw a football in the air, the football will come down, not basketball (action=reaction)  icon_rolleyes.gif  = gravity
u plant a apple seed u get apple tree n have apple to eat (action create reaction)  icon_idea.gif = propogation
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mikehuan
post Jul 6 2020, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 02:10 PM)
as i already say, it is all how your mind perceived ....
if i say u pray to medicine n u really take it so seriously as an action but not as figure of speech....
then what can i do ?  sad.gif
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ditto.
mikehuan
post Jul 6 2020, 02:29 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 02:14 PM)
whatever ....action=reaction, reaction create chain reaction  tongue.gif
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ROFL.

Maybe pray that we will see things your way.
mikehuan
post Jul 6 2020, 02:42 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 02:37 PM)
so what u want to see ?  hmm.gif
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your way
mikehuan
post Jul 6 2020, 03:00 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 02:47 PM)
my way....to see what ?
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what you want us to see?
mikehuan
post Jul 7 2020, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 03:10 PM)
i dont know, i just follow the flow ...  icon_idea.gif
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where is the flow going to?
mikehuan
post Jul 7 2020, 11:58 AM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Jul 6 2020, 03:55 PM)
religion is just a tool in politic to control human, not only in tibet, everywhere also the same .......
remember when someone shoot u, pls find the person that shoot u and not blame the gun  cool2.gif
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so your religion is a political tool?
mikehuan
post Jul 8 2020, 02:14 PM

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QUOTE(statikinetic @ Jul 8 2020, 09:49 AM)
Hmm, that ended on a relatively flat note. With no response forthcoming, perhaps I will take a stab at it based on the first post which sets the premise. Going through 70 pages is a little beyond me at this moment, so full disclosure on my laziness.

I do agree partially with the first post.
Karmic action in the next life is not guaranteed, I am in agreement.
The concept of karma being useless as the compass of our morality, I would disagree. I am of the opinion that it has a use case, however narrow.

First, the definition of karma here. If karma here is defined as reward/punishment because of actions in a past life, I would like to avoid this particular angle as it rests on questionable assumptions. It makes the assumption that there can be continuity after death in terms of the personal conscious, and it has to be in a manner which reward/punishment can be applied (Reincarnation as a human vs insect, going to heaven vs hell). This concept of karma is built on premises which are unstable, and I feel these have to be addressed before the topic can be advanced.

Now, let us take karma as a deterministic theory. The concept of karma above is that your future state is affected by the moral direction of your past actions, which the moral direction of your past actions can determine where you end up. I want to make a distinction that there is a difference between cause-effect. While cause-effect has a causal link between the action and potential state, deterministic karma does not. Example, if you pour a glass of water over yourself, you will get wet as an effect. Or you pour water over some random stranger, and you get stabbed. I deem this cause-effect. Deterministic karma would be that you randomly pour water over some kind old lady, and 2 years later your house catches fire because you were a bad person. The 'life after death' angle of karma is largely based on deterministic values, and here I would say there is no evidence to suggest that karma can exist in deterministic fashion.

On to the point which I think karma has a use case as a moral compass.

In this form, karma is more of a psychological mindset which takes on attributional qualities. I use attribution here, because we attribute any negative or positive event happening to us currently on some past action. It does not matter if there is evidence, the only thing that matters here is the personal belief. This works on the concept of fairness and reciprocity, which are big in human psychology. It is used as a coping mechanism when bad people get good things, or vice versa. It lets the individual live it down by thinking the day will come when the universe balances itself out. Of course, there is nothing to influence the universe from doing so but the mental state of the person is altered. Just like a belief in God, the belief that your actions will cause a similar impact to you in the future will influence decision making. Some people need a Priest to act as their moral compass, some need a book, and some in this case needs a belief that their actions will benefit them somehow in the future.

Without wanting to inflate the length of this post any longer than I already have, let me summarize by saying karma has a use case when it exists as a personal belief to govern our value system. It is not useless as a moral compass.
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Agreed. However, that isn't a good thing if an individuals moral compass is skewed. This style of karma belief can also be easily be brought crashing down if some sort of trauma happened and does not comply with the "do good, get good things will happen to you"

Once you stop believing in karma, then the individual basically has no moral compass anymore


mikehuan
post Jul 13 2020, 03:16 PM

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QUOTE(statikinetic @ Jul 10 2020, 04:56 PM)
Just a little bit of disappointment.
A little personal adjustment is required, that's all.
I think we are consistent on this.
Otherwise, why the need for laws?
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lol welcome to lowyat. for better or more compelling arguments, please visit reddit instead.

mikehuan
post Jul 14 2020, 01:17 PM

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QUOTE(statikinetic @ Jul 13 2020, 04:15 PM)
Welcome indeed. From the H&F days yeah? smile.gif
Gravitating towards a Hegerlian dialectic nowadays. Perhaps it is years of forum life taking it's toll.
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yes i remember, been a while hasnt it?

Well there are good arguments to be gotten here, just not from everyone.

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