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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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GentlemanTroll
post Apr 8 2020, 07:01 PM

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QUOTE(wadafak @ Apr 8 2020, 06:33 PM)
You have a durian seed.. u plant it... will you get apple on the tree? no. that's predictable. that's karma.

Now you plant same seed on the cement floor, will you get the tree? no. that's predictable. that's karma .

Now you plant same seed on ground with sunlight n water, will you get the tree? yes or no. that's predictable. that's karma too.

there're conditions which may not be controllable... some may call it random luck, some call it fate.

when all conditions are met / fate come... the durian tree will grow ...

say you kill ants for nothing... will you get kill eventually? Yes or no ... but you have created the durian seed.

A durian seed will not grow into an apple tree.  it doesn't grow into tree yet because fate is yet to come.

I use "yet" because the law of physics tell you that every action has a reaction.. the universe do it own count too...

you just wait for your turn. 

sekian...
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I go back to my question.
I plant durian seed, I know my target end result is a durian tree. Whether it grows or not, is a separate discussion.

Now, let's say I plant a "seed" - stealing. What is my "tree", if it indeed grows?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 08:56 AM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 8 2020, 09:09 PM)
don't you think it's a very self-defeating view?

If a person thinks he is fated to be bad, or predetermined by his genes, then in his mind there will not arise any will or wish to change because he does  not believe he can change it.

Like a scripted existence... reminds me of Gattaca
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Isn't it more self-defeating if you attribute them to karma?
I.e. no matter what you do, you are bound by your past life, you can't change your "bad luck" or whatever this life because of your "past karma"?

At least, with genes and everything, you still have the free will to change.
An aggresive person can learn to tone down, a slow person can learn to be faster, to a certain extend.
Effort still pays-off, even if you can't reach the "peak" of other people.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 12:00 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 9 2020, 10:36 AM)
1. Past influences present and future
2. Present influences future

Those who surrenders to past karma as sole determinant of “fate” in this life are self defeated for they don’t believe present can influence the future, therefore altering the outcomes in future.

Similar to your understanding but in this case , we extrapolate it to past and future existence. So effort in this life does make a lot difference
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Let's put it in a very selfish perspective.

Why should I care how good my "next life" is?
I'm not going to know that person, I'm not going to be that person. I will "experience" it but it's an entirely different entity which just happen to share my base conciousness.
I've not accumulated any knowledge from my past life, neither will my future accumulate any of my current life.

I don't know that person, and that person will not know me.
Why should I even care?
Heck, I may not even be a human. I may be an alien that come and destroy my current descendants etc..
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 01:20 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 9 2020, 12:27 PM)
take a look at a photo of yourself when you are 6 years old.

Is that person you? You can say, it was you, but it isn't you now. That boy, you don't have control now because you can only control the present moment. In our daily communication, when we refer as "self" or "I" , we usually subconsciously refer to this person that we can exert control.

But the decision made by that boy, affects you now.

You can also say, for selfish reason, that you don't really care about the future you. But then, when that future comes, it is still you that will experience pleasure, and displeasure.
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Let's put it this way.
If I take care of my health now, will I be able to enjoy it in the future?
The answer is simple: Yes. Even if I don't remember the exact actions, and exact behavior of me today, I know that my future will be taken care.

But let me ask you, if taking care of your health means it benefits your enemy, doing good benefits your enemy, will you do it?
I need to go more extreme, i.e. enemy rather than stranger, to illustrate my point.

I am experience what I am experience. I won't be blaming my past life is things do according my way.
But I will acknowledge my own stupidity if because of my past actions, I'm currently suffering/in trouble etc.

The thing is, the next life, has nothing to do with me.
Period.
Even if the person suffers, I won't feel it.
And worse, to that person, has no control over what I do today. He/she/whatever has no idea what happen, and only have to live the consequences. Just like I have to live the "consequences" of my past-life did.

I know my actions affect my future because of continuity. My next life don't have such continuity.

Edit: To add on: My future will be aware of the consequences of my actions now. And I am aware of the consequences of my actions on the future.
But neither am I aware of the consequences of my actions on my "next life", nor my "next life" is aware of the consequences of my actions in this life.

This post has been edited by GentlemanTroll: Apr 9 2020, 01:35 PM
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 01:28 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 9 2020, 12:54 PM)
for a drunk person, even yesterday is meaningless because he can't remember it. that does not mean yesterday does not exist.

The earliest part of my life that I could remember was about 5 years old, even that in bits and pieces. That does not mean i don't exist when i was in my mothers' womb until 5 years old.

For a demented old man, he can't remember anything. in your logic, past and future is meaningless for him because it does not exist for him.

that is a very individualized logic based on his own conclusion only, but in reality, that is untrue.
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I disagree.
You see, you know that you make a decision to get drunk.
So, you suffering your consequences, makes sense for a drunk person.

The earliest part of life you could remember was about 5 years old. That may be true.
But it has a continuity.
At 5 years old, you remember what happens at 3 years old. At 7 years old, you remember 5. At 20, you remember 15-20. And less of anything below 15. But it's a progression.

For demented old man, that depends the severity of the dementia. Dementia doesn't mean totally lost of memory.
My late grandmother has alzheimer's/dementia. However, she still remembers some of the stuff she says some times.
You don't need perfect memory for continuity. You just need to be aware of continuity. Even till the end, she is aware of continuity.

But let's say, a demented old man who is able to build 0 memory. i.e. 100% of what he do or says today, he won't remember a minute later, and he forgot 100% of his past, then as you say, past and future is meaningless for him. He can only live by the minute.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 01:38 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 9 2020, 01:27 PM)
Now imagine if you have all the memories of your past lives and how much you have suffered and pained, how much you have lost and loved, this shapes your action today because you know what the future will be if you continue to be indifferent.

And this "loss of memory" is exactly what happens to the majority of the so called practitioners of past life religion like Buddhism. They wait for next lives, practice minimally and hope for the best.
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If you have all the memoeries of your past life, or in fact, some of the memory, a "continuity" if you will, then I think you don't need to explain karma anymore.

One more thing on memory.
Even if you don't remember, your people you love remembers. So, there are still other considerations.
But the future you, no one knows you, not even yourself. Caring for future you is like caring for a total stranger.
Yes, if I'm kind, I would care, put some effort. But would I struggle my whole life just to care for a complete stranger?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 02:04 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 9 2020, 01:51 PM)
That is the next point I wanted to make actually, memory gives you identity, who are you and how you relate to the world. Without a self, like you say you become a complete stranger not related from second to second.

So the 3rd point is the self defeating Buddhist philosophy, without self ... You are doing for nobody ...so to speak
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To a certain extend, I would say even if you don't have memory, you can have identity.
E.g. you are able to trace how you lived in the past, through either words of mouth, records of your past actions, photos etc etc..
You are being "preserved" by all these records.
And of course, your loved ones are a testatement of yourself.
Even if you don't care bout your future, you may still care about your loved ones.

But if you're a new person, with entirely new surrounding, then, you have no testatement of your past actions to your current self. Which, as you say, self-defeating as without self, you are doing for nobody.

So, honestly, if karma is only going to be "rewarded" or "punished" in my next life, I really don't give a damn.
It won't motivate me to do good or bad.

As I state in my example, for all I know, I may be borned in a country/planet where they work to punish my descendents (assuming I hv), which my present self cares for.

GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 02:18 PM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 9 2020, 02:14 PM)
How do you know something you don't know, not exists?
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So you pretend something you don't know exist, even though you don't know whether it exist or not?
And I've already asked, if you are so confident it exist, do you even know how it works?
If you don't know how it works, why bother trying to apply it to your life?

Some people say, karma is basically you reap what you sow.

So, till now, no one answered my question.

If what I reap today is - Stealing.

What do I sow?

If I don't even know that, then tell me, how can I make decisions based on Karma?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 02:22 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 9 2020, 02:14 PM)
That's why many of them do believe in a mixture of some of what you do today in this life, will be rewarded or punished within the same life.

Again, it goes back to the predictability, exactly what will be realised in this life and what will be next life ? This has been intentionally made vague so that karma cannot be falsified.
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And therefore, as you say, karma in itself is useless, as we cannot apply it in any meaningful way.
I wouldn't say it don't exist, as we don't know what we don't know, but it's useless at our current level of understanding.

It's not useless to be used as a moral tool to guide people, but it's useless for us to try to apply in our individual life.

In a way, if people simplify karma as cause and effect, then karma definitely exist. Every action will have an effect.
You drink water now, will have an effect, no matter how small your actions.
You can reasonably predict most effect of your cause, to a certain extend. And that's why cause & effect is meaningful, as you can apply it.

But when you transcend space and time, over future lives etc, then, you don't know how to apply it anymore. If you don't know how to use it, then it's useless.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 02:30 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 9 2020, 02:26 PM)
You see, you can't memorize anything, you look at photo you can't recognize it is you because there is no database in your memory to compare with etc ... If you can remember what you see, then you have memory even for 1 second ...

The other point is no one actually care, most Buddhists don't either. They talk to you about the philosophy, the belief but they live their lives as normal you do.
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Sorry, I meant, even if you lose your previous memory. Not you have 0 memory now on.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 02:36 PM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 9 2020, 02:30 PM)
How sure you are I am applying it? Anyway, it is always Yin Yang, with the 2 dots in it. You may gey to know why. From what I understand, you stealed, based on what motivation. That person you stole also has his or her conditions too.
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If you're not applying it, then karma is useless for you. Simple as that. Whether it exist or not, won't change anything.

Okay, let's go to more detailed example.

1st. Let's assume Robin Hood scenario. Stealing from the corrupted rich, for the poor.
What did he reap, by doing this.

2nd. For selfish personal gain. Mr A. scam an old lady of her life savings, so that he can live a more luxirious life.
What is his karma.

He did not discriminate who he scam.
Is his karma going to be affected by who he scam? (i.e. he may scam a rich person who is not affected at all by the scam. or he could scam an old lady's retirement fund etc.).
Is karma affected by external, or only internal?

But either way, what will he reap?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 02:50 PM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 9 2020, 02:45 PM)
Neutral. You can try experience yourself, pointless asking. You take note all the experience. Since you do it purposely. You curse heavily on someone who is VVIP or a lay person different people. Use timeline to observe it.

There is no clear cut answers like ABC. Is all depend on your body, mind, soul. Unless you gain the power of knowing beyond. Else it is merely discussion on paper. Is not just an individual anymore, it includes environments, you family tree, ancestors, race, your faith even atheist, etc. Just like you pour a pail of water on a land, what is the probability of harming an ant?
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Basically, in short, you don't know how it works.
And therefore, it's useless.

If I were to put it in an analogy, is like, you have a medicine. But you don't know what's the purpose of the medicine.
Yes, sure, you can spend your time experimenting on it. It could be a medicine to cure cancer, or some illness, or it could ultimately be a useless medicine.
You have 0 guidance. No one else knows exactly what the medicine does.
Would you be bothered with experimenting on yourself? For every sickness you get, you try to eat it, or just get on with life and ignore it?

What you don't know, and thus cannot be applied, is useless.


GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 02:58 PM

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QUOTE(Silfrijin @ Apr 9 2020, 02:55 PM)
To you useless, simple as it is. There is always another side.
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Are you saying you can apply something you don't know?
You acknowledge you don't know about it already.
So, how can something no one knows be useful to anyone?

I'm not saying there is no effect, I'm just saying knowledge about karma is useless.
What other side? Show me concrete example, not vague words.

I showed my stance with clear cut examples. And all you people do is say some vague words.
Typical.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 04:05 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 9 2020, 03:51 PM)
But your life continuum is not static, it will eventually flow to that point in future. You could say the older self of you , say 70 years old does not exist yet, so you don't care what happens to that person.

but eventually your life continuity will flow into 70 years old, and that that point there will be someone that will feel pleasure/displeasure. That person will still be you.

You can project yourself into your death in future, and according to the Buddha, that life continuum does not stop , but begins immediately after this life has ended. In that case, you will flow into that life continuum, and you will take up that form and identify it as self, and you will still experience it because that future timeline has become the present.
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Whoever experiencing that future, is not you.

Whoever experiencing the 70 years old self, is still you. Otherwise, you will say the you tomorrow is not you.
It doesnt work that way.
The 70 years old you, will still have the same parents, know the same people (and maybe more people), have the same memory (maybe less) as you have today.
You can envision what will happen when you're 70, and you can work towards what you envision.
Basically, you know what you are expecting, based on the actions you do today. What are the consequences etc, what are the effect.
But you can never envision what is your next life.

This: "My future will be aware of the consequences of my actions now. And I am aware of the consequences of my actions on the future."


Who you are, are formed based on your experience, the people you know, and your memory.
The new person is formed of entirely different genetics, and is no longer relevant for you.

Let me ask you, assuming past lives exist, do you really care about it? Do you care if your past life is a good person, or a bad person? What does it matter to you, currently?
The answert is simple: Nothing. That person, if it even exist, is just a stranger. Similarly, the future, is just a stranger.

Since time is relative, by logic of karma, I could be your reincarnation.
Would you really want to do more good so that I can enjoy my life more?
Or let's be more extreme. Trump could be your reincarnation.
Or someone who will kill your son in the future.

You really want to do good for him to enjoy your fruit?

This post has been edited by GentlemanTroll: Apr 9 2020, 04:21 PM
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 9 2020, 03:55 PM)
TS, karma exist whether you believe it or not. Just because human naked can’t see it, it doesn’t mean its no existence. Eg. Wireless transmission.
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Whether it exist or not, matters less than how you can apply it.

I ask back the same question that nobody can answer.

If I steal today, what karma will I get?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 9 2020, 04:51 PM)
it's very simple indeed. karma is another definition of cause and effect which scientifically known as: everything happens for a reason. If one steal, a simple answer is he will lost that amount of fortune or even more in the future.
As of when will that be, how much is the amount, it can't be answer in a single sentence. it's beyond our layman understanding because it relate in many different aspects such as time, motive, impact, etc. For example, if you plant a melon seed, it'll bear a fruit as large as a melon even though the cause is only a tiny seed. In the event of how large can the melon be, how sweet can it taste, and how fine can the texture be, it all depends on weather, soil, fertilizing, etc.
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So, let me simplify.

You steal, someone will steal from you instead.
You kill, someone will kill you?
You donate, someone will donate to you?

Are you saying, it's that direct?
You do A, then A will be done back on you?
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 05:06 PM

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QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 9 2020, 05:00 PM)
you are quoting me out of context.
again, it's not so simple as "yes it will", there's a process.
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I asked you a question, I'm paraphrasing your answer.
If I'm quoting out of context, means you have not answered my question.

What is my karma?

If you want to say, there's a process, give me an example, then we discuss from there. Show me a whole process via example.
Otherwise, you are just being vague intentionally.

If you read my previous post, I have already make it clear, what I expect (i.e. not what answer I want to hear, but rather what type of answer - CLEAR ANSWERS, that I want. Something relevant and with context, not some vague term. The answer may not be the answer I believe or want to hear, but it has to be clear, relevant and has full context).
That's why I put a generic statement, so that you can form example scenarios.
You chose to answer by saying steal and you will have fortune stolen from you.
Then when I quote, you said out of context.

Also, I don't believe the terms: "everything happens for a reason". Some things are just random.
Why did human have appendicitis? Random. We don't need it, but we happen to have it.

This post has been edited by GentlemanTroll: Apr 9 2020, 05:09 PM
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 05:12 PM

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QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 9 2020, 05:09 PM)
as i explain and answer in my previous post, yes.
i have given the melon example.
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Melon seed is clear.
Humans action are not.

It's a bad analogy.

You plant melon seed, you know you can only get melons.

You steal, you have no idea what you "plant". That's my point.

A better analogy is, you have 1000 different type of seeds. You have no idea which seed is for which tree. You are not able to check.
You have space for 1 plant only. Which seed do you choose?

Why I say it's a better analogy? Cause humans have limited time. And you have no idea what your action (i.e. your seed) will result into (i.e. your plant).
You only know what is your seed, you hv no idea what is your "plant".
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 05:43 PM

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QUOTE(asamalikum @ Apr 9 2020, 05:35 PM)
you plant or steal both are cause of actions being taken, consequently have their effects respectively; however, the effect of stealing is not scientifically proven or related, therefore you choose not to believe. Sadly, don't think it'll ever be scientifically proven.
To sum up, if you believe in cause and effect, then karma is self-explanatory.
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Let me put it in simple English, before I start accusing you of just being dishonest.

You illustrate plant.

1. You plant a melon seed, you may or may not get a melon tree. You expect to get a melon tree. THE END.

2. You plant an action (stealing), WTF do you expect to SOW? In terms of Karma.
I'm not even saying scientifically proven or not. I'm not saying you should definitely expect the plant to grow.

I'm asking you, what do you expect to get out of it, from karma perspective?
You say, you will lose fortune, then you say, I quote you out of context.
So, wtf are you trying to say?

If you have no idea - say it - you have no idea.
If you know, then ANSWER. Don't twist it. Simple as that.
GentlemanTroll
post Apr 9 2020, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Apr 9 2020, 05:42 PM)
you may want to reread spear2 post regarding memory.

Karma only makes sense if you can piece the memory together, but if you can't find that pieces of memory, past-present-future has no meaning.

I agree with what he says. do you?
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Yes, I agree with what he says.
Which is why I think the concept of karma that is defined by the forumers here to be pretty useless.

Cause based on what they say:
Karma could happen in your lifetime - but not sure whether will happen or not.
Karma could happen in your future lifetime - where you have no memory of the past, so it doesn't make sense, or it doesn't matter.

So, conclusion seems to be, it may or may not matter. Like everything we do. Don't need karma.

What you eat today may or may not matter. With or without karma.

The reason I'm asking is to see, who can tell me, why is karma meaningful. What use does it serve. etc etc.
That's... Assuming it even exist. Which I'm now giving it a benefit of doubt.

But my point is, if karma exist and you have no idea how it works, its equaivalent to not existing.
E.g. you have a car but have nobody who can drive it = you have no car.

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