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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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TSpuchongite
post Apr 5 2020, 06:15 AM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 4 2020, 10:14 PM)
It is rationalized when you choose which ants go into which container. The ants were chosen because of karma. To you it seems random, to the believers that's karma at work.
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That means the believers are saying the ants were chosen were the resultant (re)action of their past deeds and this karma chain cannot be broken.

My question will be, when can a new karma chain be created ?

What is stopping one to say "I killed somebody because of my past deeds" and that's my karma ?

Isn't that renders karma a useless piece of explanation ?
TSpuchongite
post Apr 5 2020, 06:32 AM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 10:59 PM)
i'm afraid you might have a different perception of what 'karma' is. hinduism has a different perception on karma and so is jainism. the term 'karma' exists even way before the Buddha came to be. for the sake of discussion, i assume you're referring to 'karma' in buddhist context, so we can discuss coherently.

the term 'karma' in buddhist context is a 'volitional action', the intention or motive behind an action. it forms in our minds, all beings' minds, that precede any bodily or verbal actions. 'karma vipaka', the ripening or maturation of karma, is bound to happen when 'karma' is done. meaning the fruition of karma is guaranteed. the severity level of 'karma vipaka' depends on the severity of 'karma' done. it can ripen in the very present life or far future into the next life.

there are causes that drive us to have volitional actions (karma), I won't explain much of that because it is not relevant to your question but it is important to mention. to put it simply, the driving factors are the roots that manifest in 'karma' that can be categorized into unwholesome root (greed, hatred, delusion) and wholesome root (non-greed, non-hatred, non-delusion) they are in always dormant state, eager to jump out when conditions are met. buddhist monks' goal is to eradicate these unwholesome root, completely.
okay, now let us go back to your question at the very beginning: "Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?"

in my opinion and understanding, the result of our next life can be guaranteed only if certain conditions are met. and exactly what "conditions' as you ask further previously, that would depend on what sort of result you're expecting to achieve. with the right cause and nourished with the right conditions correspond to the expected result, the expected result would then be guaranteed.
Those are vague. You have not defined right cause, right conditions and the rest. It is vague words piling on vague words.

QUOTE
if we refer back to your ant experiment. the CONDITION here for the early death of ants in container A is the administering of pesticide. the story doesn't end there. life cycle goes on in Samsara. the ants died may reborn into ants again or other beings in the next life, depends on the expiration & maturation of karma of the deeds of their past lives. 
Did you not realize that the ants were not in their first life, they would have existed in this universe for many generations, and carried with them the karma of their past lives ?

If I perform a new experiment to terminate their lives and that is successful and deterministic, and that breaks the predetermined action of karmic chain of the respective ants, that means either karma is false or it lacks guaranteed predictability.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 07:47 AM
Pikichu
post Apr 5 2020, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 11:30 PM)
actual buddhists practice the following 3 steps: dana(generosity),  sila(morality & virtue), then bhavana(mental cultivation, also known as meditation) dana -> sila -> bhavana

by putting effort and gradually training in accordance to these steps, you're conditioning the mind to lean towards pure and clean state. pure and clean state of mind is a happy mind  smile.gif

once sila(morality) are like your second nature, what comes naturally is samadhi(concentration), a calm and serene mind that's clear, even blissful state of mind, which help ones to see things as they are, in other word, the reality la. that's when panna(wisdom) come to be.

sila -> samadhi -> panna.
"what 'things' ahhh???" you may ask. those 'things" are the reality of anicca(impermanent), dukkha(unsatisfactory-ness), anatta(non-self)

all phenomenas come to existence based on conditionality. even our state of mind, mental habits and activities and conditioned-based. they are ever changing, thus anicca(impermanence). we always want to hold on to pleasant feelings and always dispel unpleasant ones, and since they are impermanent, there are also dukkha(unsatisfactory). also because all phenomenas are subject to change,  this characteristic is called anatta(non-self) 
true or not ? hmm i don't know. you'll have to experience it for yourself. perhaps can be liken to this analogy: nearly impossible to describe the taste of durian to someone who hasn't tasted it themselves  wink.gif
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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 5 2020, 12:28 AM)
oops sorry, i only answered your 2nd question in the form of simplified steps guidance to achieve a clear mind.

to your first question on "how is a mind clear", a mind is clear when the driving factors - the underlying unwholesome roots in the mind that manifest in 'karma", are then subdued through practices. a "clearer", serene and calmer state of mind as a result. an analogy would be just like a clear pond with no ripples on the surface, and you're able to see what's underneath the pond with ease.
take for example ah, slight irritation & hatred might be present in your state of mind at this moment. your intention to reply would then be "tainted" by your present state of mind, responding with words that are not pleasant to the readers. smile.gif
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How is a mind clear?
Your answer and definition of a clear mind is infested with an "underlying unwholesome roots" in the mind.

Therefore you are unable to see and experience a mind that is empty of burden and aware of it's presence and present state.

Thank you for your second answer too, is indoctrinated by religious ideology. No different from a Muslim spreading how great is Islam or atheist propogating atheism or Christian scaring people with hell unless the seek forgiveness from Christ or a salesman selling snake oil as if the bottle can cure all ailments.

As such you will not understand Buddhism meditation because your mind is occupied.
And from your reply, it shows you are imposing your thoughts on others.

But you won't understand anything written here because you have define your mind and you cannot read the content objectively.

So I wish you, stay home, stay safe, have a nice day.
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:21 PM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 5 2020, 12:00 AM)
I asked, "How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?"

Clearly two of you do not have a clear mind biggrin.gif LOL

When you do not have a clear mind, how can you be objective?
So you have what the military calls, a trained response. Just say karma, trigger all these response.

Anyway, if you cannot answer my first 2 initial questions, then you are stuck in your loop. No need to reply. Thank you for reading.
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Clear or not, time will tell if karma will strike you or not if you ever hurt people ya. It could not happen now but in your next life.

It's hard to prove to you and you don't even know how large is the universe. And don't assume God or other Deity only handle one planet. Your new life could be carried forward from another planet.

Many people like you only make a judgement based on the earth and having the mentality of the earth is the only living planet.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 12:22 PM
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 11:32 PM)
yup, whether or not you subscribe to the believes of 'karma' & "rebirth', they are merely religious ideology. you will find your own version of Truth when you experience them personally.  wink.gif
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And this is your ideology that one can find one own version of Truth and experience them personally? Why do you think there are some personalized versions of Truth?
Pikichu
post Apr 5 2020, 12:36 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:21 PM)
Clear or not, time will tell if karma will strike you or not if you ever hurt people ya. It could not happen now but in your next life.

It's hard to prove to you and you don't even know how large is the universe. And don't assume God or other Deity only handle one planet. Your new life could be carried forward from another planet.

Many people like you only make a judgement based on the earth and having the mentality of the earth is the only living planet.
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When you do not have a clear mind then you are living in delusion.
You hit next level when you continue to impose your ideology on others.
Next level is religious war and terror.

You are on your way there. Keep up the good work.
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:39 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 06:15 AM)
That means the believers are saying the ants were chosen were the resultant (re)action of their past deeds and this karma chain cannot be broken.

My question will be, when can a new karma chain be created ?

What is stopping one to say "I killed somebody because of my past deeds" and that's my karma ?

Isn't that renders karma a useless piece of explanation ?
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Karma is created continuously, your conscious action in selecting the ants will generate karma, so it is an eternal cyclic chain, as long as you keep coming back to this samsara (universe) thru rebirth. To get out, is to attain nirvana.

Because there is no detail to it's workings, just a general moral law, nor there appears to be any constraint, it becomes an arbitrary explanation after the fact. It seems a human proclivity to explain everything they see but yet they don't understand, like why a person is born poor or deformed or why an evil person can escape punishment in his life etc ...
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:41 PM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 5 2020, 12:36 PM)
When you do not have a clear mind then you are living in delusion.
You hit next level when you continue to impose your ideology on others.
Next level is religious war and terror.

You are on your way there. Keep up the good work.
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I am just explaining the karma point. Only you're touching about ideology, religious war, and terror. You can continue to hurt people if you think karma is untrue. No one can stop you.

Only ignorant will claim certain thing is untrue. The universe is so huge. Anything is possible unless you visited the whole universe.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 12:43 PM
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:41 PM)
I am just explaining the karma point. Only you're touching about ideology, religious war, and terror. You can continue to hurt people if you think karma is untrue. No one can stop you.

Only ignorant will claim certain thing is untrue. The universe is so huge. Anything is possible unless you visited the whole universe.
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Why do you say anything is possible as if you have visited the whole universe? You should not say anything at all unless you have visited the whole universe.
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:48 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 12:45 PM)
Why do you say anything is possible as if you have visited the whole universe? You should not say anything at all unless you have visited the whole universe.
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At least I won't become ignorant like you to claim certain things as untrue. If you don't want to look like an ignorant, perhaps you can say it's untrue on earth. Not the entire universe. Duh.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 12:49 PM
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:48 PM)
At least I won't become ignorant like you to claim certain things as untrue.
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How do you know that when you have not visited the whole universe?
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 12:49 PM)
How do you know that when you have not visited the whole universe?
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All the stars, planets and galaxies that can be seen today make up just 4 percent of the universe. The other 96 percent is made of stuff astronomers can't see, detect or even comprehend.

That's why it's silly to claim certain things to be untrue. The size of the universe is beyond imagination. How can you be sure no other human/Aliens on the other side?
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 12:54 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:52 PM)
All the stars, planets and galaxies that can be seen today make up just 4 percent of the universe. The other 96 percent is made of stuff astronomers can't see, detect or even comprehend.

That's why it's silly to claim certain things to be untrue. The size of the universe is beyond imagination. How can you be sure no other human/Aliens on the other side?
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See the bolded claim you made. How do you know that is true when you said yourself you haven't visited the whole universe. You should not say anything at all. Still don't understand?

This post has been edited by Spear2: Apr 5 2020, 12:55 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 12:54 PM)
See the bolded claim you made. How do you know that is true when you said yourself you haven't visited the whole universe. You should not say anything at all. Still don't understand?
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I will only say based on my past experience, karma is likely to be true. I won't claim anything to be 100% true or proven to be a fact. Unlike TS already concluded it' to be untrue.
Spear2
post Apr 5 2020, 01:05 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 12:56 PM)
I will only say based on my past experience, karma is likely to be true. I won't claim anything to be 100% true or proven to be a fact. Unlike TS already concluded it' to be untrue.
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But that is not what you claimed earlier and your past experience is so tiny compared to the universe. What TS posted is to make some conclusion based on a thought experiment. Just like science which you rejected but demanded odd requirements. I find you are a blob of inconsistent mess.

Still based on your earlier logic you should not say anything at all ...
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 01:25 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Apr 5 2020, 01:05 PM)
But that is not what you claimed earlier and your past experience is so tiny compared to the universe. What TS posted is to make some conclusion based on a thought experiment. Just like science which you rejected but demanded odd requirements. I find you are a blob of inconsistent mess.

Still based on your earlier logic you should not say anything at all ...
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Based on a thought experiment is also very tiny compared to the universe. At least I said it's likely.

But ignorant like you like to make a conclusion without evidence to prove karma is untrue.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 01:27 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 5 2020, 01:53 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 01:25 PM)
Based on a thought experiment is also very tiny compared to the universe. At least I said it's likely.

But ignorant like you like to make a conclusion without evidence to prove karma is untrue.
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The thought experiment has nothing to do with the size of the universe.

It is a limited scope experiment which the conclusion is to be drawn based upon whatever on the earth, to which the karma law is said by Buddhists to be applicable.

Have you read the text in the first two posts ?

The first post starts off the discussion by asking if you think karma action is guaranteed to be predictable. If your answer is that it is not guaranteed to be predictable, then don't even bother to dwell on the thought experiment mentioned in the second post. When a claim lacks predictability, then it is an unfalsifiable claim. An unfalsifiable claim is not eligible for proving or disproving.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 02:04 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 02:04 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 01:53 PM)
The thought experiment has nothing to do with the size of the universe.

The size is important unless you specifically mentioned Karma is untrue on earth.

For example, if you do your experiment to detect the existence of ghosts in a certain village that claimed to have ghosts roaming around. You did the experiment for 2 decades and finally, you concluded Ghost is untrue This conclusion is not valid because the entire universe is too huge. Your sample size for the experiment is too small to make such a big conclusion.

This applies to almost anything including UFOs, Aliens, God, Deity or your favorite unicorn. smile.gif

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 02:07 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 5 2020, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 5 2020, 02:04 PM)
The size is important unless you specifically mentioned Karma is untrue on earth.

For example, if you do your experiment to detect the existence of ghosts in a certain village that claimed to have ghosts roaming around. You did the experiment of 2 decades and finally, you concluded Ghost is untrue. This conclusion is not valid because the entire universe is too huge. Your sample size is too small to make sure a big conclusion.

This applies to almost anything including UFOs, Aliens, God, Deity or your favorite unicorn.  smile.gif
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We are not talking about the ghost, we are also not talking about UFO.

You have not even replied my first question, is karma guaranteed to be predictable ?

Did you even read what I wrote in my previous post ?

Is the alien UFO or ghost thing falsifiable ?

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 5 2020, 02:09 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 5 2020, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 5 2020, 02:09 PM)
We are not talking about the ghost, we are also not talking about UFO.

You have not even replied my first question, is karma guaranteed to be predictable ?

Did you even read what I wrote in my previous post ?

If you UFO or ghost thing falsifiable ?
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Karma will relate to religion. It's hard to prove or explain to you. There is no certainty. This is not mathematics, 1+1=2. That's why certain people will eat vegetarian and no meats. I am sure you enjoy eating meats. smile.gif

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 5 2020, 02:14 PM

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